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Precognition, Do You Think It Exists?

Da Blob

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It is pretty much an established fact that God - not being an object can never be proven to have an objective existence by employing objective logic.. However, it may be possible to prove in the near future that there is such a human talent, Precognition, that would pretty much cause current theories as to the nature of Time and Causality and the rest of Objective Logic to be thrown out the window. What theories could they be replaced with?

I have had a few precognitve experiences in my life so I don't doubt their existence, but what do you think? Anyone else have a premonition, an intuition that something was going to happen before it actually ocurred?

The following is an exerpt from Precognition, Presentiment & Remote Viewing by Dean Radin

Russell Targ's group at SRI International was supported by CIA and defense contracts for most of its existence, so a good deal of their research remains classified. However, in recent years, some intriguing research has been declassified. A number of their studies show that it does not appear to be any more difficult to know the hidden future than to know the hidden present. For example, when they did an experiment with six pictures and the subject's task was to guess which picture would be chosen (via a later roll of a die), the results were just as good as when the subject was asked to view a hidden picture in the present. A recent meta-analysis out of Edinburgh examining 44 different experimental series confirmed that the data for real-time psychic functioning has the same effect size as that for precognitive psychic functioning. A second step in exploring this effect involved telling the die-roller, "You need to get a three in order for the lighthouse to be chosen and to confirm the precognitive remote viewing of the subject." This doesn't seem to interfere at all. This protocol does raise the issue of whether there might be psychokinesis effects; however, Russell feels it is unlikely since PK studies with dice produce only about a 1-2% variation from chance. At SRI, they had sixty targets, which means a PK effect would have to control the data to select precisely a single target from sixty, which seems highly improbable if the usual PK effect is only 1-2%. One famous anecdote involved a pool of sixty locations. The subject was an artist and drew a lot of detail on a Chevy dealership, with a star in the window. Russell's co-experimenter challenged him to psychically force the RNG to choose the number for the target the subject described. Sure enough, the RNG chose the correct target.

With remote viewing protocols involving precognition and using very good subjects, they averaged four hits out of six trials. Subjects typically were instructed to envision the scene where an experimenter would be in thirty minutes. However, the location of that experimenter had yet to be determined through a randomized computer choice from amongst a large database of possibilities. These experiments imply that, in some profound way, we misunderstand the nature of causality.

The picture of causality, time, and precognition grew even more bizarre when Russell discussed a study with a protocol that seemed to confound or interrupt future viewing. In this experiment, there were five possible target pictures. The subjects were asked to describe and draw the picture that will be chosen. Russell then took this detailed description and compared it to the database of five pictures chosen for the experiment. Often there was clear evidence of clairvoyance, such as a lighthouse with stripes and a clover-leaf at the top, drawn exactly like the target picture...
 

Inappropriate Behavior

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The picture of causality, time, and precognition grew even more bizarre when Russell discussed a study with a protocol that seemed to confound or interrupt future viewing. In this experiment, there were five possible target pictures. The subjects were asked to describe and draw the picture that will be chosen. Russell then took this detailed description and compared it to the database of five pictures chosen for the experiment. Often there was clear evidence of clairvoyance, such as a lighthouse with stripes and a clover-leaf at the top, drawn exactly like the target picture...

I am reminded of a tv magician that challenged the audience at home to think of any card in a standard deck. He then flashed a queen of spades and asked "Is this your card?" then walked away. It turns out that when people are asked to think of any card, the queen of spades is by far the most common to come to mind and the magician was simply playing the odds.

This experiment quoted above makes me ask some questions. Was there a control group asked to describe and draw a picture without five possible target pictures in mind? Could it turn out that pictures like a lighthouse or clover leaf be statistically more common than other images? I think more than what is described is needed to indicate any probability of precognisance.

That being said, I have "predicted" certain events in my life. Some rather eirie but there have also been "predictions" that were far from coming to pass. Certainly there isn't evidence to convince even myself that I have any "gift" and I would LOVE to have such.
 

Thaklaar

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For example, when they did an experiment with six pictures and the subject's task was to guess which picture would be chosen (via a later roll of a die), the results were just as good as when the subject was asked to view a hidden picture in the present.

The finding that precognition is just as effective as telepathy is not a terribly interesting one. That the author uses this as a supporting statement makes me question his analytical skills. I'm inclined to disbelief in precog simply because anything that breaks causality in such a fundamental way gives me the screaming fits.
 

echoplex

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I don't think I ever truly have, but I wouldn't be surprised if it existed in some people.

I've wondered if it's possible that it's not really "pre"-cognition, but simply cognition that is difficult to access, and that maybe only some people have such an ability to understand it. I sometimes feel like a have "layers" of thought beneath my conscious thoughts, and that if I'm patient enough to let it come to the surface, I can have some powerful insights.

I'm not really convinced that's precognition though, probably just complex pattern recognition or something.
 

Sapphire Harp

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Blob, were you thinking discussing the 5 seconds - 5 minutes in advance intuitions that people sometimes have with this thread? Or were you planning to go as far as prophecy with it? Or both?
 

dwags222

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I'm inclined to disbelief in precog simply because anything that breaks causality in such a fundamental way gives me the screaming fits.

hope you don't ever plan on studying physics ;)
 

Thaklaar

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hope you don't ever plan on studying physics ;)
Modern physics might bend causality a bit, but doesn't break it. At least not on a large scale.
 

Da Blob

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The finding that precognition is just as effective as telepathy is not a terribly interesting one. That the author uses this as a supporting statement makes me question his analytical skills. I'm inclined to disbelief in precog simply because anything that breaks causality in such a fundamental way gives me the screaming fits.

Yes, I hope it gives others the same sort of indigestion...:D

However, as noted above this was a rigorous scientific experiment paid for by the CIA...
The reason that it goes ignored, despite its' validity is that it messes with the established propaganda concerning the nature of reality...
 

Thaklaar

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Yes, I hope it gives others the same sort of indigestion...:D

However, as noted above this was a rigorous scientific experiment paid for by the CIA...
The reason that it goes ignored, despite its' validity is that it messes with the established propaganda concerning the nature of reality...
There's not enough detail for me to judge the rigor of the experiments. Need to know more specifics about experimental procedure, control groups, etc. Didn't realize reality needed propaganda. Go fig.
 

Da Blob

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From my POV
Reality is Propaganda!


the reality of needing to invade Iraq, the reality of the "two party system", the reality broadcast on the News every night that has little or nothing to do with my existence...

I do not about the methodology of the studies, it was probably much more rigorous than the pap being published in most peer- reviewed journals now-a-days...
 

Thaklaar

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From my POV
Reality is Propaganda!


the reality of needing to invade Iraq, the reality of the "two party system", the reality broadcast on the News every night that has little or nothing to do with my existence...

I do not about the methodology of the studies, it was probably much more rigorous than the pap being published in most peer- reviewed journals now-a-days...
Most of that is literal propaganda. Except the two-party system, that's pretty much dictated by the structure of our elections system. It's enough to make my cynical, certainly, but not enough to make me want to chuck causality in the wastebin along with the news media and politicians. What specific pap are you speaking of?
 

Da Blob

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Generally anything in the so-called soft sciences that exalts opinion polls into self-report surveys and then pretends to go for a P < .05 cut-off. Hell, One can get a one per cent difference in an opinion poll just by changing a single word...

Science? Bah Humbug!
 

Thaklaar

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Eh, that's why they're called the soft sciences. Them and real scientists are apples and oranges.
 

Dissident

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Precognition, Do You Think It Exists?

Short answer: No.
Long answer: .... No.


I dont think bringing up physics helps, the fact that in some theories, under some extreme conditions, specific situations, and non daily life scales weird things are proposed as possible, doesn't mean that your neurons can do them on demand.
 

Oblivious

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I do not think any established ideas would have be replaced even in the face of proven psychic ability. I would think they merely would be refined.

I personally have had a dream a long time ago in which I heard word for word what a physics lecturer said in a random statement months before he actually said it. I still remember what that comment was. The sense of dejavu and disbelief I had when he actually said it was incredibly poignant.

I do not think that just because you cannot explain something it should be dismissed. When you spend most of your time dealing with the unknown, you'll appreciate what it means to withhold judgment.
 
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Take fifty shots at the basketball net from 20 yards and proclaim yourself as a professional when it's finally in. Lucky shot or not, you've done well. Probability is no special ability.
 

Cobra

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From my POV
Reality is Propaganda!...

the reality of needing to invade Iraq, the reality of the "two party system", the reality broadcast on the News every night that has little or nothing to do with my existence...

I do not think that just because you cannot explain something it should be dismissed.

I'm taking Oblivious' quote out of context here, but only because it can be applied on a broader scale.

Thaklaar said it right when he said most of that is literal. Iraq wasn't a threat to our freedom. It is now, though. How free are we from that invoice? Oh... We're not.

I think you were talking about the need for the two party system? If you were, I concur. It's bull shit, but as humans we split down the middle as a part of our nature. Independents are often seen as chickens or INTPs, I'm sure. But it's funny that we've labeled the unlabeled, at the very least. It's like a witty episode of Seinfeld; which would be as rare as wit itself.

But those news broadcasts are a double-wicked dynamite, Blob. There's no way to keep your brain from being washed by the shit they pit it against. But you have to stay informed. Otherwise, all you have is the bible.

Which is fine, if that's what you're after! I don't want anyone drawing any hyper-conclusions from that statement.

Imo, though, neither the bible nor the news is any place to find anything impartial, unbiased, or even tidy. Without flaming anyone's beliefs by saying so, does anyone share this opinion?
 

Artifice Orisit

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If intuition is the pre-conception of an event or series of events before they occur then there is very little difference between it and pre-cognition. Except that pre-cognition is commonly understood as a form of infallible knowledge of these happenings before they occur without a cognitive pre-conception having occurred in the "psychic’s" mind.
So unless there is a person who can study the entirety of their thoughts as they occur or a pre-cognitive prediction made that could not possibly have been the result of pre-conception how could we know if pre-cognition exists or not?
 

Da Blob

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If intuition is the pre-conception of an event or series of events before they occur then there is very little difference between it and pre-cognition. Except that pre-cognition is commonly understood as a form of infallible knowledge of these happenings before they occur without a cognitive pre-conception having occurred in the "psychic’s" mind.
So unless there is a person who can study the entirety of their thoughts as they occur or a pre-cognitive prediction made that could not possibly have been the result of pre-conception how could we know if pre-cognition exists or not?

Well, aren't we perceptive!
That was the point , if the INTPian Intuition
is actually a raw form of pre-cognition
it certainly could explain a lot...
 

Gorgrim

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Ive anticipated things that have happened, without realising how. But i don't think i can vouch for hte fact that I've known things would happen without any facts.

maybe ive sensed something coming, without beeing aware of it, which has caused me to realise something is about to happen, which I then take as a weird anticipation.

have any of you psychicly anticipated something without making use of any information? That would properly be impossible.

so imo, im still gonna say that the unconcious and concious works together and sometimes we don't realise it happening. Indeed, Intuition as a function does help produce anticipations from information. But... i aint sure i understand how Precognition should happen if i understand it right.
 

Da Blob

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I wonder how much of Anticipation involves real precognition?
Personally, aside from that vague feeling that something is about to happened or is happening somewhere else in the world, which seems to be a fairly common experience,
I have had a 'few' dreams that have come to pass. It seems that Time in dreams conforms to a different standard...

I guess it is that type of pre-cog that is being investigated, under the heading of Remote Viewing...(?)
 

Gorgrim

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well, I thought of dreaming exactly after i saw the thread. Remember when a dream gives you a 'warning' or an insight, which helps, because it gives you a way to response to a situation, like a boeing 747 simulator, before actually going out there and flying it.

in that sense, I thought of precognition as a process, giving you a view or experience of what has not happened yet, to protect you from upcoming events. which would otherwise leave you confused.

but as dreams, I was going to assume that the mind has constructed scenaria from some kind of information. But there seems to be a gap where information won't cover what you see in dreams? is that simply unconcious, is it about information gathering that we don't know how works? or is it constructing NEW information from old?

A dream that has come to pass, is perhaps also a dream experience to get you used to the future. Due to a way of knowing how the future that you should prepare for will be like.


anyway, i must say i've suddenly thought something would happen that then happened, without knowing why. Problem is i have a hard time thinking that that was simply knowing the future without anything to back it up. IN-formation as i said..... Is it interesting knowing the future if you havn't got any information to back it up? if you havnt, is it even the real future?

can u have cause without effect :/
 

Kidege

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If intuition is the pre-conception of an event or series of events before they occur then there is very little difference between it and pre-cognition. Except that pre-cognition is commonly understood as a form of infallible knowledge of these happenings before they occur without a cognitive pre-conception having occurred in the "psychic’s" mind.
So unless there is a person who can study the entirety of their thoughts as they occur or a pre-cognitive prediction made that could not possibly have been the result of pre-conception how could we know if pre-cognition exists or not?

RL example:

A lady dreams that she's in a house, and a man with a shirt with squares tries to steal some hens. There's a small inner patio in the house, and the man is standing right across of it. The dreams ends with a fight in which the lady's husband may be injured. There's blood but the lady can't remember any more details. Upon waking she says: "it felt so intense, and so real, that it is a warning" Still, she tries to interpret the dream with the elements around her, but finds it impossible: she knows no men with similar shirts, no places with similar patios, and can't tell what kind of symbol might the hens be.

Two months later, the lady, her daughter and her husband arrive to a hotel. A man in a shirt with squares is also staying there. When they get to their room, they open the window and see an inner patio. The man in the shirt is standing right across it. They interpret the hens as "vulnerable females" and leave the hotel.

Was it a precognitive dream? You tell me, but I'd say yes.
Did everything happen as in the dream? No, they changed it on purpose.

In my experience the difference between "warnings" and nightmares is the way in which the dreamer focuses on the patterns: the dreamer's self seems to focus upon a combination of elements (the shirt, the patio, the hens), as if getting ready to remember and to look for them afterwards.

Besides, the dream refuses to yield to interpretation. In the more complex precognitive dreams there's usually something missing that the dreamer understands when the time comes.

Finally, the message also tends to be "backed up" by the circumstances. In the example, the hotel was nearly empty and its hallways were labyrinthic, emphasizing the atmosphere of danger.

Who picks the elements and the sequence? I don't know, but the dreamer's not in control.


Actually I've told my mother to stop dreaming of me as a hen (c'mon, it's embarrasing!), but she won't. Says she can't control it. If there's danger ahead, I get cast as a freaking hen
 

lucazin

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I'll believe that precognition exist if the world ends in 2012 as Nostradamus has predicted.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Few weeks ago my mother told me a dream she has had the last night in which she saw my sister falling off from the motorcycle where she and her boyfriend were and that she had many injuries, though she couldn't remember exactly what kind of injuries. Three days after, my sister had a motorcycle accident in the same conditions my mother had told to me and I was really shock that she had dreamed it days before. Later in that day, when I was more calm, I began to remember how much she had been worried about my sister riding a motorcycle with a boyfriend she didn't know many days before she has had the dream. The conclusion I got about that was the accident was a huge possibility and if it had never happened she wouldn't remember it as she was wrong about it.

It's really difficult to me see where pre-conception ends and pre-cognition begins as sees the first is created in logical manner and with consideration for possibilities in our conscious while the second seen the person read something in the stars in the conscious and didn't applicated it any logic or even did represented it.
 

Da Blob

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I think you have provided a good example of the paradox. Before the accident your mother's dream would have been labeled silly or irrational. However, after the accident, suddenly it was no longer silly - yet still irrational. One can find rational excuses for the events of the past, but one can no longer be certain that those rational excuses actually had anything to do with the event.... The entire thing could have been irrational, both cause and effect...
 

Kidege

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The daimon's in the details. If enough odd details are there, and they cannot be interpreted away before the pre-seen event happens, it's more likely to be genuine precognition.
 

Sapphire Harp

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I'll believe that precognition exist if the world ends in 2012 as Nostradamus has predicted.

Ignoring the question if it's true or not, Nostradamus didn't use dates often or directly - and specifically didn't use 2012. The only place that date comes from is the Mayan calendar. Everyone is connecting disassociated prophecies to that number.
 

Gorgrim

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If Precognition exists, it is not mystical, it has a pattern. it has a cause. I see it not as a random insight into the future, but as an insight that is formed from a very real part of our brain. i dont know where or what part, though.

anyway, as everybody will agree on, inbetween these precognitives, there is coincidences, guesses, about something that turned out to be right at the time. the chance you'll make a mistake is there when you guess. but the same effect as a precognition happens if you're right in your guess.

what part of a precognition is not an educated guess? i think its exactly what it is. wether that information was 'hidden' in your unconcious dreams or through knowledge processes you didn't know you had, I don't know. but in my opinion there's a link between precognition and pre-information.

these guesses, can be educated guesses, based on knowledge/ experience. Just because there appears to be no visible pattern where one will anticipate a patio + a man with a certain shirt, doesn't mean its not there. I believe there has to be a pattern for precognition to be meaningful , which it turns out to be. because a pattern dictates which way a precognition will go, and without a pattern.. i think you will end up with some very weird precognitions that are indeed random....
 

lucazin

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Ignoring the question if it's true or not, Nostradamus didn't use dates often or directly - and specifically didn't use 2012. The only place that date comes from is the Mayan calendar. Everyone is connecting disassociated prophecies to that number.

Apologize for the misinformation, I didn't know that Nostradamus didn't use specific dates, though I did know about the Mayan calendar and I thought it was a coincidence in dates and even a supporting point to the prophecy. I hate when I fall in common mistakes..
 

Sapphire Harp

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Apologize for the misinformation, I didn't know that Nostradamus didn't use specific dates, though I did know about the Mayan calendar and I thought it was a coincidence in dates and even a supporting point to the prophecy. I hate when I fall in common mistakes..

I wouldn't feel too bad about it. I've been running the gauntlet with the 2012 theory and the the ratio of accurate perspectives to misinformed ones is about the worst I've ever seen. Like 20:1 or worse.
 

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When speaking about precognition, it's not the level of the (ir)rationality which matters, but how much weight we put in those precognitions. If you believe in your dreams/prophecies, you're unconsciously preparing to the prognosed situation, acting to prevent/quicken the event, thus making it to rise from a low credibility to a highter level.
 

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for about a year i would dream every night of a random event that would happen the next day. it was always something completely pointless, like a conversation i would overhear, a song that would play or a minor event i would witness. i'm a logical person so it drove me absolutely mad not having any explanation. i experimented with it, sometimes telling people before the event occurred (so i knew i wasn't just going crazy) or keeping it to myself (so i knew no one was playing tricks on me) - either way it came true. eventually i got really tired of it and wanted it to stop, and it has and i haven't had them since. as a sceptic, i hate to admit that i believe in precognition, but i have no choice! i still don't understand how it's possible, maybe something to do with us only perceiving time as linear.
 
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