posts split from Acceptance

[Duxwing]

Yeah, asking about killing people is pretty uncouth.

I can already taste my foot, but I'll ask anyway: is it a touchy subject?

-Duxwing

 

[Duxwing]

Re: Acceptance

Not for me, but it's not a good question to ask military dudes in general, because they probably have killed or, at least, seen death. I mean, I guess I've seen death, but I'm not offended by thinking about it. Probably because it was none of my buddies and it wasn't my fault.

In the spirit of Monty Python:

Tribunal Prosecutor: Specialist SpaceYeti, how did Corporal Scott H. Overland wind up as a smoking crater in the pavement of your motor pool?
SpaceYeti: It wasn't my fault, sir.
Judge: *snicker*
Tribunal Prosecutor: It wasn't your fault that what?
SpaceYeti: It wasn't my fault that he poured the JP-8 where he shouldn't have, sir.
Judge: *bites lip, closes eyes* *stifles a chuckle*
Tribunal Prosecutor: And is your duty not to prevent such improper fueling?
SpaceYeti: Yes, my duty is to prevent such improper fueling. However, I didn't realize that the repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," meant that I could follow people into the portapotty when they were carrying our company dild--err, fuel nozzle--sir.
Judge: *clenches, his teeth, practically giggling*
SpaceYeti: Your honor, I am in no way stretching the truth, nor filling a hole in my story. This is all cold, hard fact.
Judge: *softly stomps his foot, leaning over his bench* (gasping for breath, whispering) OK, you're acquitted, but please, stop with the jokes: you can't make me laugh in front of his family.
SpaceYeti: And now for something completely different.

-Duxwing

 

[SpaceYeti]

Re: Acceptance

It had a lot more to do with an IED, but meeting a judge that would laugh at that would totally be worth it.

 

[Duxwing]

Re: Acceptance

It had a lot more to do with an IED,

Were you stationed out in the Middle East, then?

but meeting a judge that would laugh at that would totally be worth it.

At the IED, or at what I described?

-Duxwing

 

[SpaceYeti]

Re: Acceptance

Were you stationed out in the Middle East, then?

I was deployed to Afghanistan.

At the IED, or at what I described?

-Duxwing

Your thing.

 

[Duxwing]

Re: Acceptance

I was deployed to Afghanistan.

Hot sun, parched air, angry locals, and JP-8. Wonderful.

Your thing.

Oh, OK. And what of the one who'd laugh at the former?

-Duxwing

 

[SpaceYeti]

Re: Acceptance

Hot sun, parched air, angry locals, and JP-8. Wonderful.

The environment there is actually pretty varied, but there are some desert parts. Also, I was gun-truck security there, not fueling. I never really actually did my MOS until I came here to Korea.

Oh, OK. And what of the one who'd laugh at the former?

-Duxwing

I'd be quite offended.

 

[Hayyel]

Re: Acceptance

In the spirit of Monty Python:

Tribunal Prosecutor: Specialist SpaceYeti, how did Corporal Scott H. Overland wind up as a smoking crater in the pavement of your motor pool?
SpaceYeti: It wasn't my fault, sir.
Judge: *snicker*
Tribunal Prosecutor: It wasn't your fault that what?
SpaceYeti: It wasn't my fault that he poured the JP-8 where he shouldn't have, sir.
Judge: *bites lip, closes eyes* *stifles a chuckle*
Tribunal Prosecutor: And is your duty not to prevent such improper fueling?
SpaceYeti: Yes, my duty is to prevent such improper fueling. However, I didn't realize that the repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," meant that I could follow people into the portapotty when they were carrying our company dild--err, fuel nozzle--sir.
Judge: *clenches, his teeth, practically giggling*
SpaceYeti: Your honor, I am in no way stretching the truth, nor filling a hole in my story. This is all cold, hard fact.
Judge: *softly stomps his foot, leaning over his bench* (gasping for breath, whispering) OK, you're acquitted, but please, stop with the jokes: you can't make me laugh in front of his family.
SpaceYeti: And now for something completely different.

-Duxwing

I already see that we have similar tastes in jokes. I remember that not too long ago one of our family's friends comitted suicide by ingesting acid. We could barely stop laughing

 

[Duxwing]

Re: Acceptance

The environment there is actually pretty varied, but there are some desert parts. Also, I was gun-truck security there, not fueling. I never really actually did my MOS until I came here to Korea.

Interesting!

I'd be quite offended.

Ah, OK.

I already see that we have similar tastes in jokes. I remember that not too long ago one of our family's friends comitted suicide by ingesting acid. We could barely stop laughing

Erm, my joke wasn't a suicide joke. Overland was using a fuel nozzle as a sex toy and blew up.

-Duxwing

 

[Hayyel]

Re: Acceptance

Erm, my joke wasn't a suicide joke. Overland was using a fuel nozzle as a sex toy and blew up.

-Duxwing

Thank you for pointing that out, I didn't notice. I'm waaaaay to stupid to understand that joke. *rolls eyes*

No, I meant jokes about death generally speaking. I think we find humor in the weirdest places.

 

[Duxwing]

Re: Acceptance

Thank you for pointing that out, I didn't notice. I'm waaaaay to stupid to understand that joke. *rolls eyes*

No, I meant jokes about death generally speaking. I think we find humor in the weirdest places.

Why didn't you just say so? You only mentioned jokes about suicide.

-Duxwing

 

[Hayyel]

Sorry, I thought it was clear. Sometimes I forget myself Anyways, like the Barenaked Ladies once said... "I'm the kind of guy who laughs at a funeral". It's hard to keep it in.

 

[Duxwing]

Sorry, I thought it was clear. Sometimes I forget myself Anyways, like the Barenaked Ladies once said... "I'm the kind of guy who laughs at a funeral". It's hard to keep it in.

Humor is sometimes a defense against overwhelming emotions; perhaps you'd learn something interesting in thinking about why you find death so funny.

-Duxwing

 

[Wolf18]

@SpaceYeti: Speaking of humour in death, many of my friends are involved in the US military. And I've always wondered about how much a part death takes in your daily lives. Take the granny song (When my granny was 91, she did PT just for fun...), for instance, and all the different versions of "C-130 rollin' down the strip." They all end in death.
Is it a coping method? I have asked some soldier friends and they said they had never thought of it that way, but maybe an INTP can help answer my question.

 

[SpaceYeti]

@SpaceYeti: Speaking of humour in death, many of my friends are involved in the US military. And I've always wondered about how much a part death takes in your daily lives. Take the granny song (When my granny was 91, she did PT just for fun...), for instance, and all the different versions of "C-130 rollin' down the strip." They all end in death.
Is it a coping method? I have asked some soldier friends and they said they had never thought of it that way, but maybe an INTP can help answer my question.

Those are both running cadences. You do PT to them. I suppose they involve a morbid humor, but they're not really about death so much as how death is irrelevant.

 

[Hayyel]

Death is funny only when it happens in the stupidest ways. If I would go back to that suicide example, I think it was funny because... why would you drink acid to commit suicide, and then sit around screaming from pain? (Besides, one of us mentioned that in a moment like that you probably don't know what too give to the person to try to help, and then someone else said something along the lines of "and then the extra juice would splash out of them like in a tom and jerry movie".) Also, did you hear about the Darwin awards? That's a good piece of comedy.

 

[Duxwing]

Death is funny only when it happens in the stupidest ways. If I would go back to that suicide example, I think it was funny because... why would you drink acid to commit suicide, and then sit around screaming from pain?

Erm... acid hurts.

(Besides, one of us mentioned that in a moment like that you probably don't know what too give to the person to try to help, and then someone else said something along the lines of "and then the extra juice would splash out of them like in a tom and jerry movie".)

Eh?

Also, did you hear about the Darwin awards? That's a good piece of comedy.

Yes. Those are hilarious.

-Duxwing

 

[Hayyel]

I know it hurts, duh! That's why I don't get it. If you want to commit suicide just take some pills or something. Why would you choose the most painful way is beyond me.

And the joke was mainly about how the acid would burn you. We imagined it like in the cartoons- if you would drink something after it, little jets of water would come splashing out of yoy all over your body. And before you tell me that is not how it works, I know. It is a joke.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Referencing: http://www.intpforum.com/showpost.php?p=368865&postcount=10

I'll just be straightforward and quote my input from the modbox with some minor editing:

Dux Dux Dux.....

He's the Blob of logic. I'd honestly fear for his life if he were in a pasture during the zombie apocalypse given the number of dead horses he's beaten. I think he's currently more of a separator than a uniter... The walls of text and derailing are annoying.

I think the root of the issue is that he doesn't see how he's different from the rest of the forum in the sense that he feels everyone else should be held to his standards of "logic!" and thus pursues accordingly regardless of his own in/correctness.

 

[Jennywocky]

I'll just be straightforward and quote my input from the modbox with some minor editing:

Futz. If we promise to be good, can you reinsert the sexy talk/imgs and bump it up to an NC-17?

.... Anyway, sadly, I agree. I tried to do a little bit of gentle nudging in that situation but it was ignored. I suppose nudging is not effective here. It's difficult as people might not want to add to the already ongoing disruptions -- disrupting the disruptions? It just makes a larger disruption.

 

[loveofreason]

Well guys, Let me hijack this space to formally welcome Dux to Siberia.

It's a better place than most to have our disrupting conversations about how damned irritating the duxwing posting phenomena has become.

Let's call it a "family intervention".

DUX - we're concerned about your abuse of logic.

Logic is fun, but clumsy, compulsive and unrelenting mishandling of logic is dangerous. People get hurt. Logic-abusers lose touch with reality and alienate their friends and family.

We want to see you free of self-delusion and denial.

We want to be able to read a whole thread without some goddamn nitpicky essay and beatdown of the OP poster, followed by your unsolicited counselling prescriptions.

Please stop. We love you.

You're here for a week - let's go cold turkey. You can do it. No posting except to accept critical feedback and explore your own behaviour from outside perspectives.

 

[SpaceYeti]

... What happened? Sexy pictures?

 

[Jennywocky]

Yes, that's apparently what they're holding out on us.

What the hell goes on in that modbox anyways?

 

[Duxwing]

Well guys, Let me hijack this space to formally welcome Dux to Siberia.

It's a better place than most to have our disrupting conversations about how damned irritating the duxwing posting phenomena has become.

Let's call it a "family intervention".

DUX - we're concerned about your abuse of logic.

Logic is fun, but clumsy, compulsive and unrelenting mishandling of logic is dangerous. People get hurt. Logic-abusers lose touch with reality and alienate their friends and family.

We want to see you free of self-delusion and denial.

We want to be able to read a whole thread without some goddamn nitpicky essay and beatdown of the OP poster, followed by your unsolicited counselling prescriptions.

Please stop. We love you.

You're here for a week - let's go cold turkey. You can do it. No posting except to accept critical feedback and explore your own behaviour from outside perspectives.

I must admit that your choice of theme--an intervention--is either stunningly hypocritical or brilliantly ironic considering the crimes of which I stand accused. Also, simply imploring me to do what you say is quite difficult if I don't understand why you say it:

--How is pointing out logic errors "nitpicking"? Correcting these is essential to later discussion.
--How does "nitpicking" constitute a "beatdown"? I've nothing personal against the OP. Why are you making it personal?
--I do not follow every argument with a suggestion for counseling.

Finally, are there a set of statements that I can simply copy and paste into my posts in order to avoid this?

-Duxwing

EDIT: Even if I'm punishment worthy, thrn how does own8ge get away with what he does? He relentlessly berates and insults others and even asserts his own doubtlessness without getting in trouble, while I, simply by implying the wrong thing, get sent to Siberia: such treatment is quite inconsistent.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Yes, that's apparently what they're holding out on us.

What the hell goes on in that modbox anyways?

Well, behind the small mountains of cocaine and the facade of burlesque dancers there's actually a really nice art garden beside an isolated cove, with fields of summer poppies and a custom mahogany case to store our banhammers and superman underwear.

To be honest, not much more than out here. There's ~half a decade of accumulated thoughts and discussions about the state of the forum and people who aren't here anymore, and a bunch of threads for all the spammers that get auto-banned. Some areas legit haven't been posted in since 2010.

We're basically normal members with more responsibility and a few extra buttons.
The irony of derailing this thread...

 

[crippli]

Duxwing. I don't believe the bad things they say about you.

 

[Jennywocky]

The irony of derailing this thread...

I have to admit a slight modicum of pleasure in the thought... universal karma an' all dat...

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

EDIT: Even if I'm punishment worthy, thrn how does own8ge get away with what he does? He relentlessly berates and insults others and even asserts his own doubtlessness without getting in trouble, while I, simply by implying the wrong thing, get sent to Siberia: such treatment is quite inconsistent.

Dux, this extends far beyond your recent interaction with Own8ge (who has been banned in the past, but has also demonstrably improved over the past several months) and wasn't the antagonist in said interaction.

You yourself have improved (Fuck knows you're intelligent). You're no longer doling out e-hugs ffs! But something else, perhaps far worse, has taken their place.

--How is pointing out logic errors "nitpicking"? Correcting these is essential to later discussion.
--How does "nitpicking" constitute a "beatdown"? I've nothing personal against the OP. Why are you making it personal?
--I do not follow every argument with a suggestion for counseling.

It's not reasonable to expect others to move mountains as a prerequisite for you to stop prodding and/or consider what they have to say.

Regarding the most recent, what would have happened had you resisted the "logic!" urge? It would have ended up just like it is now after the split: http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=16647

For reference, look at the ^thread and what was split from it, and compare: http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=368865

Idiocy-identification is capable of standing on its own without captain obvious grinding into its soul as a means to stroke his own ego.

You turned a thread about the OP's personal situation into a thread about "Me! Me! Me!" You've made a habit of this. We're assuming (and hoping) it's just something you don't see and aren't aware of, thus we are now making you aware of it.

To put it into Snafu terms, "Are you dense?". By and large, just like Blob, the problem isn't what you're doing, but how.

I think it would be extremely helpful if you thought in depth about what, exactly, you're attempting to accomplish.

Some time ago (Jan 26, 2013) I left you a visitor message in the midst of what was then, for me, a manic high, with this last sentence foreshadowing a bit of insightful advice: "A unique facet of calling out fallacy with skill is to never overtly refer to it as fallacy."

Finally, are there a set of statements that I can simply copy and paste into my posts in order to avoid this?

That would be cheating.

Based on your response, I also believe you're not picking up the correct vibe/tone from LoR. I mean, you got this out of her: "Please stop. We love you."

 

[loveofreason]

Duxwing, I think the opportunity to compare the forum and threads with and without your interaction is valuable. Doc just made it really easy for you to start, with a set of links.

We are asking something of you... observe and self-reflect. See your part in the big picture and understand your impacts. See how you can become self-regulating. You're a really large part of the forum, but your activity is incredibly self-serving. I understand you believe you're doing the best for others by pointing out what appear to you to be logical inconsistencies... but look at the way you're going about it, and the false presumptions you so often act apon.

I don't consider this punishment, I consider this help. And I always act in irony. Mirroring your own behaviour is a device to open your possibilities to seeing the reverse side of your own interactions.

Though... having to explain this is rather

 

[loveofreason]

It occurs to me, Dux, that I could be rather hegemonic in my expectations that you could just switch modes of thinking to be able to see the forum and your part in it holistically, in order to see where you're causing more detriment than good....

But if you could bear with this as an exercise, then maybe something good will come of it.

 

[Duxwing]

Dux, this extends far beyond your recent interaction with Own8ge (who has been banned in the past, but has also demonstrably improved over the past several months) and wasn't the antagonist in said interaction.

Are you sure about that? I mean, he called me stupid more times than I have fingers.

You yourself have improved (Fuck knows you're intelligent). You're no longer doling out e-hugs ffs!

Thanks.

But something else, perhaps far worse, has taken their place.

Bum bum buuuuummmm.

It's not reasonable to expect others to move mountains as a prerequisite for you to stop prodding and/or consider what they have to say.

Uhm.. move mountains how, exactly?

Regarding the most recent, what would have happened had you resisted the "logic!" urge? It would have ended up just like it is now after the split: http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=16647

For reference, look at the ^thread and what was split from it, and compare: http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=368865

One turned into a debate, the other, an advice thread.

Idiocy-identification is capable of standing on its own without captain obvious grinding into its soul as a means to stroke his own ego.

I'm not grasping this... could you state it in more words?

You turned a thread about the OP's personal situation into a thread about "Me! Me! Me!" You've made a habit of this.

Not to nitpick, but: replace "Me!" with "My disagreement with own8ge!" and you'll be right in all cases.

We're assuming (and hoping) it's just something you don't see and aren't aware of, thus we are now making you aware of it.

That's pretty much the case: Imagine me as a blind, deaf boy flying an A380 through a thunder-clad mountain range. For those with a dark sense of humor, hilarity ensues.

To put it into Snafu terms, "Are you dense?". By and large, just like Blob, the problem isn't what you're doing, but how.

Some time ago (Jan 26, 2013) I left you a visitor message in the midst of what was then, for me, a manic high,

At the risk of sounding bigoted, pedantic, and like I'm committing argumentum ad hominem: Should I be concerned about your condition affecting your judgment?

with this last sentence foreshadowing a bit of insightful advice: "A unique facet of calling out fallacy with skill is to never overtly refer to it as fallacy."

Any ideas on how?

That would be cheating.

Think of it like the message on your side-view mirror.

Based on your response, I also believe you're not picking up the correct vibe/tone from LoR. I mean, you got this out of her: "Please stop. We love you."

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean that I understood that from what she said, or do you mean that my actions caused such an uncharacteristic response? I assumed that she was cracking an ironic joke to grind in how grating I must seem and thereby effect a change in my behavior--and I was right!

Though I might seem incredulous (and, to a certain extent, I am) for the most part, I really am as ignorant and slow as I first appear.

Duxwing, I think the opportunity to compare the forum and threads with and without your interaction is valuable. Doc just made it really easy for you to start, with a set of links.

And I compared them and saw the difference. I'm working on a reply to his post.

We are asking something of you... observe and self-reflect.

I feel rather put upon and confused, even with all this. I know that some here might think "But it's so obvious!" but it isn't to me.

See your part in the big picture and understand your impacts.

I'm going to need a bigger brain. My mind boggles and aches at the prospect of all the modeling necessary: so many relationships to analyze, so many characters to deconstruct, so many emotions to deduce... owwwwwww, brain hurty!

Is my method inefficient, or is socialization really this difficult? I feel like you're asking me to disassemble, dimension, and model an internal combustion engine whose parts and design spontaneously change.

See how you can become self-regulating.

Logical models and memorized boolean flags. Lots of 'em. Lots and lots... owwww... my head.

You're a really large part of the forum, but your activity is incredibly self-serving.

What part of my self am I serving? (You've asked me to make fewer assumptions, and these endless questions are the inevitable consequence; I could search my mind forever and never produce a result that's to your liking).

I understand you believe you're doing the best for others by pointing out what appear to you to be logical inconsistencies... but look at the way you're going about it,

So as far as I understand it, you want my tone to change so that I'm not hurting other poster's feelings and my analyses to include fewer assumptions?

and the false presumptions you so often act apon.

What presumptions?

I don't consider this punishment, I consider this help. And I always act in irony. Mirroring your own behaviour is a device to open your possibilities to seeing the reverse side of your own interactions.

So are you acting in irony now? I never knew that I sent people to Siberia!

I kid, I kid.

Though... having to explain this is rather

I don't understand that. Not one bit.

It occurs to me, Dux, that I could be rather hegemonic in my expectations that you could just switch modes of thinking to be able to see the forum and your part in it holistically, in order to see where you're causing more detriment than good....

I couldn't have said it better myself.

But if you could bear with this as an exercise, then maybe something good will come of it.

I could also build the aforementioned internal combustion engine. I just don't know how.

-Duxwing

 

[loveofreason]

Thanks Duxwing, for listening and stretching. Give it time.

 

[Duxwing]

Thanks Duxwing, for listening and stretching. Give it time.

I still have almost no idea what you concretely want. Your descriptions are nebulous and seemingly perfectionist, and the delivery seems disturbingly manipulative. I feel like Socrates on trial, to be frank, and you all know how that ended.

-Duxwing

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

I apologize in advance. I can't help but see 3 feet of text and default into blunt response mode.

Are you sure about that? I mean, he called me stupid more times than I have fingers.

A fly only gets swatted as many times as it approaches a horse's ass.

Uhm.. move mountains how, exactly?

*Irony much?

One turned into a debate, the other, an advice thread.

Um.... no. One turned into a productive discussion and the other a contest to be won.

I'm not grasping this... could you state it in more words?

*

Not to nitpick, but: replace "Me!" with "My disagreement with own8ge!" and you'll be right in all cases.

You've got to be trolling right now. Have you been Face in covert mode this entire time?

That's pretty much the case: Imagine me as a blind, deaf boy flying an A380 through a thunder-clad mountain range. For those with a dark sense of humor, hilarity ensues.

In the above statement you're effectively asking me to assume you're an idiot. I refuse. Perhaps I give too much credit. You should be aware that you're currently in a conversation with air traffic control who is attempting to guide you through a crash landing. I'm losing patience because it appears the pilot doesn't want to put in the requisite amount of effort and it's becoming more tempting to let natural selection take over.

At the risk of sounding bigoted, pedantic, and like I'm committing argumentum ad hominem: Should I be concerned about your condition affecting your judgment?

I would not have accepted the role of admin had my condition been an issue. Note that I'm not the only modmin who has taken issue with you.

Any ideas on how?

Observe the forum interactions. It happens constantly without mention of a Latin word. A measure of one's rhetoric is the ability to adjust one's level of conversation to that of their audience. You fail here. Miserably. Like no one else.

It's also notable that many here recognize the fallacy fallacy; the assumption that because a given phrase ends in "fallacy" that it is indeed a fallacy.

I'm not quite sure what you mean.

It means you're coming across like a douchebag.

Though I might seem incredulous (and, to a certain extent, I am) for the most part, I really am as ignorant and slow as I first appear.

That's becoming more and more clear... And you're not incredulous, you're "perspectively challenged." Incredulous is the polite, self-aggrandizing way to say that one lacks the ability to effectively consider other perspectives. The bulk of this community, when presented with a contradictory statement, mentally says to themselves "Okay, if so then ___" before forming a conclusion. Instead, you say "But that doesn't match up with ___."

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Dux, can you explain, in a reasonable length of text, who you are, what makes you you, and how you're being authentic?

 

[redbaron]

I don't think Duxwing is going to change from this movement to Siberia. The things being pointed out here have already been pointed out on numerous occasions, in both crass as well as more gentle terms.

I honestly think he simply doesn't understand logical allusions and has trouble following other people's, 'reasonable' inferences. For example: THD points out that people shouldn't have to, 'move mountains' just to satisfy his (Dux's) urges for his version of complete logical clarity. This seems almost painstakingly obvious to numerous people, yet he remains seemingly totally oblivious.

Which leads me to believe that he's either incredibly out of touch with his own emotions (the most likely cause if you ask me) or he's simply channeling Blob something incredible and having us all on - he sees us simply as objects here to validate him.

Duxwing, for all his championing of logic, doesn't strike me as a logical person. His values seem to override his ability to make, 'reasonable' decisions. He strikes me as far more oriented towards making everything about his own world and ideas perfect, out of his own personal desire to do so. Nothing about the way he interacts suggests to me that he's genuinely interested in a two way exchange of practical knowledge.

Basically I feel this is much more than his forum behaviour, I think he has (multiple) deep-seeded real life issues that govern his behaviour, and that there is no way he's going to make any significant change as long as they exist.

Maybe he can prove me wrong, however I get the feeling that in an effort to dissuade the ideas being put forth he's probably going to try and nitpick this post (and others) to figurative death - which in itself is more confirming of what is being said in this thread than if he simply stopped posting.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Duxwing, for all his championing of logic, doesn't strike me as a logical person. His values seem to override his ability to make, 'reasonable' decisions. He strikes me as far more oriented towards making everything about his own world and ideas perfect, out of his own personal desire to do so. Nothing about the way he interacts suggests to me that he's genuinely interested in a two way exchange of practical knowledge.

 

[Duxwing]

Dux, can you explain, in a reasonable length of text, who you are, what makes you you, and how you're being authentic?

I have a flow chart for that if you'd like it. But authenticity was brought up not because I think that what you suggest, in itself, is a bad idea, but rather that since I don't know how to derive it from what I know (which would include what I've learned) your suggestion seems arbitrary in the extreme--not bad, not good, just arbitrary. Imagine if I, right now, tried to convince you to buy a red, three-bladed lawnmower--not just a lawnmower, but a red one with three blades, both of these properties are essential to getting to the "light at the end of the tunnel".

I don't think Duxwing is going to change from this movement to Siberia. The things being pointed out here have already been pointed out on numerous occasions, in both crass as well as more gentle terms.

Actually, I've received a number of rather helpful private messages that concern things that I've never known or understood. The difficulty in changing lies in understanding what is being said.

I honestly think he simply doesn't understand logical allusions and has trouble following other people's, 'reasonable' inferences. For example: THD points out that people shouldn't have to, 'move mountains' just to satisfy his (Dux's) urges for his version of complete logical clarity. This seems almost painstakingly obvious to numerous people, yet he remains seemingly totally oblivious.

I still don't understand what mountains need to be moved, and why they end up being mountains. I imagine something big, but I don't know what it is: beliefs, prior writing, feelings, preferences, everything? And then I wonder whether the forum exists a means for mountain moving: my 'mountains' have been moved from time to time here.

Which leads me to believe that he's either incredibly out of touch with his own emotions (the most likely cause if you ask me) or he's simply channeling Blob something incredible and having us all on - he sees us simply as objects here to validate him.

It's the former, but I have a feeling that you won't believe me.

Duxwing, for all his championing of logic, doesn't strike me as a logical person. His values seem to override his ability to make, 'reasonable' decisions.

A difference exists between being logical, practical, and reasonable. The former refers to adhering to the rules of logic, the second to putting ends before means, and the third to using a blend of logic and intuition to magically reach the conclusion that the person saying "be reasonable" wants.

What I'm trying to do, and perhaps what I ought to have stated earlier, is construct a logical model of imperatives that I can memorize and adhere to on autopilot, rather than trying to rely on my notoriously fallible social and intrapersonal intuition.

He strikes me as far more oriented towards making everything about his own world and ideas perfect, out of his own personal desire to do so. Nothing about the way he interacts suggests to me that he's genuinely interested in a two way exchange of practical knowledge.

When did I say that I wanted practical knowledge? I'm more into theory, and yes, developing my ideas--but not just mine: If I've 'finished' an idea and gotten it 'perfect,' then I'm more than willing to ship it out, but most of my ideas are unfinished and broken, ultimately useless or very, very nihilistic. For instance, I've realized that I can doubt whether even my immediate memory of prior reasoning is real. But most people are willing to take axioms, so for the most part, I have fun by criticizing their ideas so that they can live in accordance with their stated axioms (by either changing their axioms or their behavior) and I enjoy being shown my errors.

Basically I feel this is much more than his forum behaviour, I think he has (multiple) deep-seeded real life issues that govern his behaviour, and that there is no way he's going to make any significant change as long as they exist.

My therapist has said as much, except not that they govern all of my behavior.

Maybe he can prove me wrong, however I get the feeling that in an effort to dissuade the ideas being put forth he's probably going to try and nitpick this post (and others) to figurative death - which in itself is more confirming of what is being said in this thread than if he simply stopped posting.

I'm not trying to dissuade the ideas. Why does everyone think that I am? I have nothing against any one idea or another; it's simply that I see logical errors and inconsistencies that make understanding whether the conclusions follow almost impossible.

Are you sure about that? I mean, he called me stupid more times than I have fingers.

A fly only gets swatted as many times as it approaches a horse's ass.

Who are you talking about, him, me, or the both of us? Who is the fly, and who is the horse?

*Irony much?

I'm asking you to explain something that I don't understand instead of just 'understanding it,' are these the mountains of which you speak? I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place, now:

When I use my intuition instead of asking questions, you call me arrogant.
When I ask questions instead of assuming anything, you say that I'm asking people to move mountains.

Which Duxwing do you want?

One turned into a debate, the other, an advice thread.

Um.... no. One turned into a productive discussion and the other a contest to be won.

Debates are, to an extent, contests by definition; are you talking about something else?

*

I can't read minds.

Not to nitpick, but: replace "Me!" with "My disagreement with own8ge!" and you'll be right in all cases.

You've got to be trolling right now. Have you been Face in covert mode this entire time?

Is Face an old troll?

That's pretty much the case: Imagine me as a blind, deaf boy flying an A380 through a thunder-clad mountain range. For those with a dark sense of humor, hilarity ensues.

In the above statement you're effectively asking me to assume you're an idiot. I refuse. Perhaps I give too much credit. You should be aware that you're currently in a conversation with air traffic control who is attempting to guide you through a crash landing. I'm losing patience because it appears the pilot doesn't want to put in the requisite amount of effort and it's becoming more tempting to let natural selection take over.

At the risk of sounding bigoted, pedantic, and like I'm committing argumentum ad hominem: Should I be concerned about your condition affecting your judgment?

I would not have accepted the role of admin had my condition been an issue. Note that I'm not the only modmin who has taken issue with you.

Any ideas on how?

Observe the forum interactions. It happens constantly without mention of a Latin word. A measure of one's rhetoric is the ability to adjust one's level of conversation to that of their audience. You fail here. Miserably. Like no one else.

It's also notable that many here recognize the fallacy fallacy; the assumption that because a given phrase ends in "fallacy" that it is indeed a fallacy.

I'm not quite sure what you mean.

It means you're coming across like a douchebag.

Though I might seem incredulous (and, to a certain extent, I am) for the most part, I really am as ignorant and slow as I first appear.

That's becoming more and more clear... And you're not incredulous, you're "perspectively challenged." Incredulous is the polite, self-aggrandizing way to say that one lacks the ability to effectively consider other perspectives.

I have no problem considering other's perspectives, provided that they state their axioms: I argue when I disagree with someone within a given 'perspective' (by which I assume that you mean set of axioms).

The bulk of this community, when presented with a contradictory statement, mentally says to themselves "Okay, if so then ___" before forming a conclusion. Instead, you say "But that doesn't match up with ___."

From what I understand, you're saying that although both they and I attempt disproof by contradiction, I use axioms that, while not explicitly taken by the speaker, I assume that they would take. Do I understand?

Or do you want me to just go along with what the other person says without disagreement?

-Duxwing

 

[Duxwing]

*rankles his chains and bangs his cup along the bars* Hello-o? Anyone home? I've tried analyzing the forum's group dynamics, but, as I expected and warned you, I only noticed that the forum had far less arguing and was far more 'peaceful,' if you can call a desert peaceful: treating all disagreements as personal battles defeats the purpose of allowing disagreement in the first place. Why does everyone get so worked up about disagreement? I don't understand.

When I get disagreed with, no matter how much the other person's words hurt me (and believe me, some things that people have said here have literally made me jump out of my chair and hide among my pillows) I force myself to detach from my fleeting emotions and rationally evaluate their statements lest I miss a grain of truth. Is this some herculean feat? Am I really alone in so being able?

Now look, I realize that you people don't want to reason with me: You just want to ram these changes into me with pain, and "Yes, yes, look at how much better this place is without all your arguing--now do as we say and everything will be alright". But you choose to do so not because of practicality, but because of your frustration: LOR put it best, I "drive [you] all nuts". Trying to think about something that doesn't seem to follow and has caused you difficulty in the past can give anyone a headache-- imagine me trying to reason with a religious fanatic about sexual education.

So, in desperation, you send me off to Siberia with a list of pithy imperatives like "Stop derailing threads" to "think about what I've done". You know what "think about what you've done," in the absence of help in thinking, is psychological code for? "Hurt like I do". An analogous example would be that of parents beating their misbehaved children to "teach them a lesson". The parents in so doing implicitly expect that the children will, upon feeling the pain--which is dialed up with each successive infraction-- simply 'come around' to their point of view, as if by magic.

The problem with that mode of parenting, and, by analogy, that mode of moderating, is that after the pain subsides and I stop, in the best case scenario, blubberingly promising to 'be better' and 'behave nicer,' I'll still be left without much of an idea of what it is that I need to do when the time to fulfill these coerced promises comes, and the cycle will repeat with longer banishments to Siberia and more angry PMs until I'm thrown out permanently. From what you've said here, I don't have any reason to believe that you actually, consciously want to see my permabanned, so I ask that you bear the nitpicking or at least find someone who can and will.

I ask not out of petulance or ignorance: reading minds really is impossible, and changing behavior is more difficult that you would imagine. Allow me to give you an example. When I was in the third grade, I didn't play with the other kids. I just sat against a wall and thought and imagined, sometimes sad things, othertimes happy things. The adults didn't like that, and instead of trying to understand that I simply preferred to spend my recesses in fanciful solitude, they put me in therapy and wanted to medicate me.

Now did I have anything against finding friends, or did I enjoy annoying people? To an extent, yes, because I already had a best friend and annoying people was essentially the only social ability that I had, so I enjoyed it like a starving Ugandan enjoys potato chips so stale that they can cut cardboard. Nevertheless, having some school friends mostly seemed interesting. So what did I do? I got specific: what exactly are my problems, what are the solutions, and why are these problems necessarily problems, and why are these solutions necessarily the best? When I showed up to my therapist for the first time, I had literally brought a pad and pencil to take notes.

I knew that I interrupted and ranted (I now know inherited both habits from my parents, but they won't admit to as much) and so we practiced over and over again, with lots of feedback and even a clock to measure how long I spoke. And after five years of that, along with three years of group therapy, I still rant and interrupt sometimes, but not nearly as much. My parents are still frustrated by the remnant behavior to this day, but they don't try to do anything drastic or dramatic: they know that it's one of my many faults. And I understand that you are all very frustrated (and, if LOR is to be believed, doubly so because she said that I am a constant member of the great big family that we call INTPf) and not only can I remember times when I think that I felt just like you do now, but I'm sad that you are, simply by my limited empathy (think of it like a 36 pixel video camera with 2 bit colors and a framerate of 1 frame per second). I just ask that you look within as well and see whether you've been carried away on a current of frustration to crash against me like a tidal wave.

What I've described has worked for me in the past, and I'm trying to recreate that system now. Please, if you can, work with me or find another way. I'd like to not seem so harsh and arrogant, but I need a lot of time and practice to understand these things.

-Duxwing

Afterword: I've written most of this reply while staying up past my bedtime: night and sleepiness remove some of my rational inhibitors and allow me to use my empathy and emotions if ever so slightly more freely. I apologize if my writing or mood is poor.

 

[Puffy]

If I recall Dux you sent me a pm months ago that I never responded to. If you don't hear from any of the other mods in the next few days I'll get back to you.

In the mean time, your movement here isn't going to be rescinded until the week is through; there's still plenty of time to continue this discussion, and maybe it'll continue despite my saying this, but I think maybe it would benefit from a short cool-off... You've had a lot to wade through (and so have we. )

"Please, if you can, work with me or find another way. I'd like to not seem so harsh and arrogant, but I need a lot of time and practice to understand these things."

Based on your posts I've read I agree. And obviously a mutual understanding would be great. But if it takes time I'd wager it to be a good investment, and I hope you understand that's why we flag this now, not out of spite, but for any chance that it might be pro-active.

 

[redbaron]

When I get disagreed with, no matter how much the other person's words hurt me (and believe me, some things that people have said here have literally made me jump out of my chair and hide among my pillows) I force myself to detach from my fleeting emotions and rationally evaluate their statements lest I miss a grain of truth. Is this some herculean feat? Am I really alone in so being able?

Okay. This I don't understand - however it highlights the point I'm trying to make here perfectly.

This forum isn't as INTP as it seems, there's a lot of Ti/Si/Ne, but I'd speculate that only about 50-60% or so of the forum is actually INTP. Yet it's not that big of a deal, because even if someone isn't an INTP, at least if they have secondary/tertiary Ti, Ne or Si, they can at least most likely relate to the general populace here and can logically follow on from another person's allusion in some way.

The thing is, you seem entirely incapable of doing this. Which is why I say you're not really driven by rationality and logic, but use it as a tool (driven by values) to deal with overwhelming feelings.

Basically, when people post something here, even when it's crazy outlandish and borderline fucked-up, it's still easy for me (and it seems like others too) to relate - so asking questions to define axioms, implications, meanings etc. is entirely redundant to me, and I imagine that it's not just myself who loses interest in threads when you start up on a, 'multi-quote dot-point of almost everything said and request clarification on anything even remotely ambiguous'.

It feels like it completely sucks the creativity out of threads - which is especially frustrating when lots of abstract concepts are being brought up, and ideas are being exchanged mutually. Then all of a sudden comes this dreary wall of redundant questions, which turns the thread into some semantic argument between people or even worse, some sort of vindictive quest where you apparently, 'must' win.

For someone who doesn't need to ask these questions, who thrives on this abstract creativity and large-scale creative discussion, it is VERY draining to see literally EVERY single thread turn out this way.

While I can appreciate that you, personally, feel the need to ask these questions, the rest of us do not (feel the need). So when you do ask them, it really does become as arduous as, 'moving mountains' - because there is literally zero interest in answering these questions.

I think it's sad that you purport yourself to be a victim here as well. I'm afraid that you're processing your emotions very poorly. Emotions are part of us as human beings, no matter whether or not you like it - and they are valid. If your actions are frustrating a large portion of the forum and having an adversely poor effect on conversation here, then you should be removed.

And please, don't try to equate this to something Socratic. The scope is completely different. It's like how religion-bashers champion Richard Dawkins and think they're Conquistadors of atheism because they figuratively bash the religious on internet forums - the scope is completely different. Dawkins writes entire books, papers, research - his forum is a huge audience, and he debates with significant figures in religion. Atheists on internet forums are often bumbling idiots who don't even understand evolution enough to judge it on its own merits themselves, and frequently represent biology and other sciences incorrectly.

 

[Duxwing]

Okay. This I don't understand - however it highlights the point I'm trying to make here perfectly.

This forum isn't as INTP as it seems, there's a lot of Ti/Si/Ne, but I'd speculate that only about 50-60% or so of the forum is actually INTP. Yet it's not that big of a deal, because even if someone isn't an INTP, at least if they have secondary/tertiary Ti, Ne or Si, they can at least most likely relate to the general populace here and can logically follow on from another person's allusion in some way.

Not logically: intuitively. Your argument proves that I'm insufficiently intuitive, not insufficiently logical. In fact, it proves a point that The Gopher made earlier: I am logical to the exclusion of intuition.

The thing is, you seem entirely incapable of doing this. Which is why I say you're not really driven by rationality and logic, but use it as a tool (driven by values) to deal with overwhelming feelings.

A person driven by rationality and logic would do exactly that. A person capable of reliable intuition, however driven, would do what you describe. You're arguing one point and then concluding another. And my feelings are not as overwhelming as they are unreliable and difficult to access and use without great strain. Perhaps you recall my e-hug days? I tried being intuitive about feelings and ideas, and I failed so badly that the mods threatened me with banishment. So I switched to logic.

Basically, when people post something here, even when it's crazy outlandish and borderline fucked-up, it's still easy for me (and it seems like others too) to relate - so asking questions to define axioms, implications, meanings etc. is entirely redundant to me, and I imagine that it's not just myself who loses interest in threads when you start up on a, 'multi-quote dot-point of almost everything said and request clarification on anything even remotely ambiguous'.

Because if I disagree with someone without precise definitions of terms, then they will immediately double back and say "I never said that," either to 'cheat' or because they genuinely forgot the intuitive context in which the post was made. Now if you and the others can just intuit all of this reliably, then I'm glad for you. I can't do so nearly as well.

It feels like it completely sucks the creativity out of threads - which is especially frustrating when lots of abstract concepts are being brought up, and ideas are being exchanged mutually. Then all of a sudden comes this dreary wall of redundant questions, which turns the thread into some semantic argument between people or even worse, some sort of vindictive quest where you apparently, 'must' win.

Semantic arguments are important because words have meaning and will be referenced later in a literal fashion. If you and I agree, for example, that I'm not logical, then you will, in the future, bring that up as evidence--but use its language literally. I've learned to be precise from years of debating.

For someone who doesn't need to ask these questions, who thrives on this abstract creativity and large-scale creative discussion,

Ever consider ENTP?

it is VERY draining to see literally EVERY single thread turn out this way.

Literally every one? OK, if you say so. That includes all the threads in which I don't post, all the threads in which I post but don't argue, all the posts before my time. But oh no, this is a semantic argument *dramatically puts back of hand on forehead* I should just go along with your "large scale creative discussion" in the face of manifest physical reality.

While I can appreciate that you, personally, feel the need to ask these questions, the rest of us do not (feel the need). So when you do ask them, it really does become as arduous as, 'moving mountains' - because there is literally zero interest in answering these questions.

If I can't ask questions, then I will make assumptions, and everyone complains about that, too.

I think it's sad that you purport yourself to be a victim here as well.

Eh? I don't feel like one. Try not intuitively assuming deeper meanings. Now do I feel hapless? Yes. A crowd of angry people jumped out of the woodwork and threw me into Siberia! And victims don't take proactive steps to correc their situation, either, as you have said that I do:

The thing is, you seem entirely incapable of doing this. Which is why I say you're not really driven by rationality and logic, but use it as a tool (driven by values) to deal with overwhelming feelings.

Now which am I, red? The victim, or the fool?

I'm afraid that you're processing your emotions very poorly. Emotions are part of us as human beings, no matter whether or not you like it - and they are valid.

Not as lines of reasoning, they're not.

If your actions are frustrating a large portion of the forum and having an adversely poor effect on conversation here, then you should be removed.

So you want banishment not according to rules, but by popular vote? That's the Tyranny of the Majority, and it is a terrifying thing indeed. It inspires unbelievable groupthink, stifling the very creativity that you hold dear; it turns the forum into a roiling sea of popularity and fear, each poster trying to maintain their security lest the mob turn on them next. Not a good day.

And the moderators would disagree with you, too. While they want everyone to adhere to rules of basic decency and respect, preserving the diversity of opinion is part of their agenda: remember, frustration can come from any source, and being that niggling little voice that plays Devil's advocate is a sure way to elicit some.

And please, don't try to equate this to something Socratic.

This argument is actually turning out much like that of Socrates' trial. The stakes are 'death' (banishment) the minds of the 'jury' have been poisoned (seeing only the threads in which I do 'wrong') and one of my greatest 'offenses' is asking too many questions. I don't think I'm like Socrates; nor do I even think that I have very much knowledge. I just ask questions in pursuit of the truth.

*shrug*

The scope is completely different. It's like how religion-bashers champion Richard Dawkins and think they're Conquistadors of atheism because they figuratively bash the religious on internet forums - the scope is completely different. Dawkins writes entire books, papers, research - his forum is a huge audience, and he debates with significant figures in religion. Atheists on internet forums are often bumbling idiots who don't even understand evolution enough to judge it on its own merits themselves, and frequently represent biology and other sciences incorrectly.

Therefore I am a bumbling, arrogant idiot who doesn't understand his ideas or those of his opponents and should be removed because I frustrate people, right? Come on, redbaron, don't be shy. Take a swing.

-Duxwing

 

[Duxwing]

If I recall Dux you sent me a pm months ago that I never responded to. If you don't hear from any of the other mods in the next few days I'll get back to you.

In the mean time, your movement here isn't going to be rescinded until the week is through; there's still plenty of time to continue this discussion, and maybe it'll continue despite my saying this, but I think maybe it would benefit from a short cool-off... You've had a lot to wade through (and so have we. )

"Please, if you can, work with me or find another way. I'd like to not seem so harsh and arrogant, but I need a lot of time and practice to understand these things."

Based on your posts I've read I agree. And obviously a mutual understanding would be great. But if it takes time I'd wager it to be a good investment, and I hope you understand that's why we flag this now, not out of spite, but for any chance that it might be pro-active.

Flag this? I don't understand.

-Duxwing

 

[Absurdity]

I know you've got a lot of people trying to talk to you at once but I'm going to try and clarify a few points others have made that you seem to be struggling with.

Not logically: intuitively. Your argument proves that I'm insufficiently intuitive, not insufficiently logical. In fact, it proves a point that The Gopher made earlier: I am logical to the exclusion of intuition.

A person driven by rationality and logic would do exactly that. A person capable of reliable intuition, however driven, would do what you describe. You're arguing one point and then concluding another. And my feelings are not as overwhelming as they are unreliable and difficult to access and use without great strain. Perhaps you recall my e-hug days? I tried being intuitive about feelings and ideas, and I failed so badly that the mods threatened me with banishment. So I switched to logic.

Why does it have to be one or the other: logic or intuition? The point is to use both. Few enjoy debating with a computer, and even fewer enjoy sloppy kisses and e-hugs (we come to this dark corner of the internet to escape it). However logic and intuition together create wit, insight, and creative exchange. That is the point of this forum as I understand it.

You seem to have trouble conceptualizing the forum as a whole, so perhaps you should focus on observing the behavior and seeking the advice of a few members you admire. I'm sure they'd be more than willing to help.

So you want banishment not according to rules, but by popular vote? That's the Tyranny of the Majority, and it is a terrifying thing indeed. It inspires unbelievable groupthink, stifling the very creativity that you hold dear; it turns the forum into a roiling sea of popularity and fear, each poster trying to maintain their security lest the mob turn on them next. Not a good day.

And the moderators would disagree with you, too. While they want everyone to adhere to rules of basic decency and respect, preserving the diversity of opinion is part of their agenda: remember, frustration can come from any source, and being that niggling little voice that plays Devil's advocate is a sure way to elicit some.

I think you misunderstand redbarons point. He says you should be removed but I think he realizes it wouldn't be his call. And he's right. So your tangent about the Tyranny of the Majority is not applicable.

However the mods are charged with maintaining a level of quality in the forum. If there is a user causing problems we will take action, but it is not a direct causal line between complaints and action. We try to put the person's action in the context of the whole. Many unpopular users have not been removed despite outright vitriol expressed against them because the mods saw something in them that was worth keeping around.

This argument is actually turning out much like that of Socrates' trial. The stakes are 'death' (banishment) the minds of the 'jury' have been poisoned (seeing only the threads in which I do 'wrong') and one of my greatest 'offenses' is asking too many questions. I don't think I'm like Socrates; nor do I even think that I have very much knowledge. I just ask questions in pursuit of the truth.

*shrug*

I think we've stated pretty emphatically that this is not a trial. We're not trying to determine innocence or guilt. We see great potential in you, and we're trying to help you unlock it. We genuinely want to help you and do not want to see you go.

We don't only see the negative, but it is the negative that forces us to act.

Your "greatest offense" is not asking merely asking questions, and I think you know this. Try being a little more precise.

Therefore I am a bumbling, arrogant idiot who doesn't understand his ideas or those of his opponents and should be removed because I frustrate people, right? Come on, redbaron, don't be shy. Take a swing.

-Duxwing

If you drag the discussion down to this level enough, then yes you will frustrate people and yes, you will be removed.

 

[Duxwing]

I know you've got a lot of people trying to talk to you at once but I'm going to try and clarify a few points others have made that you seem to be struggling with.

Sure, thanks.

Why does it have to be one or the other: logic or intuition?

It needn't be. I was saying that the two concepts are not interchangeable in parlance, much less in proof.

The point is to use both.

Sure.

Few enjoy debating with a computer, and even fewer enjoy sloppy kisses and e-hugs (we come to this dark corner of the internet to escape it).

That's what my intuition told me to do, and that's why I don't use it.

However logic and intuition together create wit, insight, and creative exchange. That is the point of this forum as I understand it.

How eloquent! I agree.

You seem to have trouble conceptualizing the forum as a whole,

To be fair, I've never really tried.

so perhaps you should focus on observing the behavior and seeking the advice of a few members you admire. I'm sure they'd be more than willing to help.

Wow! OK. I'll ask Face, Blob, own8ge, s0cratus... No, probably: Architect, Jennywocky, Cognisant, Proxy, and Gopher.

I think you misunderstand redbarons point. He says you should be removed but I think he realizes it wouldn't be his call. And he's right. So your tangent about the Tyranny of the Majority is not applicable.

About the former, the latter, or both?

However the mods are charged with maintaining a level of quality in the forum. If there is a user causing problems we will take action, but it is not a direct causal line between complaints and action.

You're a moderator, too? O.O I'm starting to wonder: Who isn't a moderator?

We try to put the person's action in the context of the whole. Many unpopular users have not been removed despite outright vitriol expressed against them because the mods saw something in them that was worth keeping around.

Makes sense enough.

I think we've stated pretty emphatically that this is not a trial. We're not trying to determine innocence or guilt. We see great potential in you, and we're trying to help you unlock it. We genuinely want to help you and do not want to see you go.

You're right. Anxiety is a powerful thing.

We don't only see the negative, but it is the negative that forces us to act.

But you then say that no improvement has happened--that nothing has changed at all.

Your "greatest offense" is not asking merely asking questions, and I think you know this. Try being a little more precise.

Note the single quotes when I said that.

And oh the irony! But sure, I can rattle off a whole list of apparent problems, each with sub-lists:

--Tone
----Overbearing
----Closed-minded
----Angry
----Vindictive
----Egotistical

--Questions
----Unnecessary
----Slow down discussion
----Should be replaced by intuition

--Debating
----Too much
----Too aggressive
----Too voluminous
----Too analytical
----Too demanding of perfect precision

--Emotional Faculties
----Insufficient
----Unreliable
----Hurtful to other members, even when intended well
----Unaware of social dynamics
----Unaware of social stations
----Unaware of social cues

--Intuition
----Insufficient use of intuition
----Unreliable
----Prone to assumptions
----Inaccurate
----Prone to causing unwanted behaviors

I say "apparent" because I don't understand them or their truth well. Also, do you have anything else to add to the list?

If you drag the discussion down to this level enough, then yes you will frustrate people and yes, you will be removed.

Hm? My intention was to bait redbaron into expressing his true colors, if he had them. *thinks for a second* Oh, wow, that's flamebaiting. Oops. Sorry!

-Duxwing

 

[Jennywocky]

Which leads me to believe that he's either incredibly out of touch with his own emotions (the most likely cause if you ask me) ...

That is my best guess. The way that logic gets used is so persistent and so extreme, it feels as if it's just kind of tool being used to protect something fragile underneath. It also results in this extreme overanalysis of advice, that ends up getting so lost in details that it misses the point of the advice. And Dux has trouble seeing himself from the outside.

i haven't said much else because I honestly don't know what to say to help. I just want to say, "Sit still. Take deep breaths. Don't talk, just see and listen. Find your center." It seems that when there's an emotional crisis, the tendency is to talk more and fill the space with noise out of some kind of fear/anxiety, rather than retaining detachment and stepping back and getting perspective. But I'm not sure how to say that in a more effective way.

 

[Absurdity]

To be fair, I've never really tried.

Wow! OK. I'll ask Face, Blob, own8ge, s0cratus... No, probably: Architect, Jennywocky, Cognisant, Proxy, and Gopher.

I think it was in your conversation with THD that you said that attempting to view the forum holistically would put too much strain on your brain. If that's true then I guess there isn't much to do about that unless you can find a different method.

If however it is possible, try to see your role here. I know a number of others have said this already. You are a prolific contributor, and you carry a lot of weight here. Such influence comes with the downside of having any negative qualities magnified considerably. You are certainly not the most troublesome contributor here by merit of your actions alone, but your standing in this forum sets the bar higher. One need not be a mod to incur a responsibility to the well-being of this forum.

However I am confident that you can rise to the occasion. Learn to exercise restraint and discipline in your contributions. Sometimes less is more. Sometimes not calling someone on their BS and simply ignoring it causes others to do the same, whereas engaging with them only draws more attention to their inanity.

You've picked some good people to ask for advice, and I would certainly heed it.

About the former, the latter, or both?

About it not being his call.

You're a moderator, too? O.O I'm starting to wonder: Who isn't a moderator?

We are legion.

But you then say that no improvement has happened--that nothing has changed at all.

I'm not sure what specifically you are referring to here. You've certainly changed since you first arrived here, as many do, and will no doubt continue to. Part of this change entails serious reflection with respect to the person you are becoming and the ideal toward which you strive.

You have likely improved in some areas, and some of your strengths have likely become ever stronger during your tenure here. However we are here to address your ills because we hope that you will be able to respond to our advice with maturity.

You seem to have a rather thorough understanding of the areas in which you need to improve, and you are encouraged to reflect and experiment with ways to remedy them.

Hm? My intention was to bait redbaron into expressing his true colors, if he had them. *thinks for a second* Oh, wow, that's flamebaiting. Oops. Sorry!

-Duxwing

We are well aware that you and redbaron frequently take potshots at one another when the opportunity presents itself. However, if we felt that redbaron's posts in this thread were anything other than good advice we would have made that perfectly clear.

 

[Duxwing]

I think it was in your conversation with THD that you said that attempting to view the forum holistically would put too much strain on your brain. If that's true then I guess there isn't much to do about that unless you can find a different method.

Perhaps you and I mean different things by the term "holistically". When I think of viewing the forum holistically, I think of the whole forum: every single relationship in the web of hundreds that come here with the same resolution, accuracy, and precision, with which I view it up close--a sea of portraits and lines, each bearing kilobytes of thoughts and feelings. I wish that I could see it, but I just don't have the RAM to keep it all in my head at once.

But you might be saying that viewing the forum "holsitically" means to create a fuzzy, intuitive impression based on all my prior feedback. That, I can do.

Above all, this place is dry. Dry humor, dry logic, dry, dry, dry. I see a bunch of suppressed unconscious forces working behind the scenes--pride, dislike, anxiety, frustration--along with plenty of scars. The older folks here mostly seem the worse for wear, giving one the impression that with each passing breath we grow more weary and bitter. But I also see love. Love of logic, of clarity and of ideas; passion in creation and discussion; and eyes wet with beauty's dew.

And forms too. Vague shapes, some brighter and more colorful than others, speaking loudly. A fabric held aloft by tent poles, some taller, some shorter, and a vast network of fibery connections underneath. And stars, millions, billions of stars--ideas--burning brightly in the endless void of the internet. And among these stars, constellations: economics, politics, philosophy, art, and the rest. That is INTPf as seen from above and far away.

If however it is possible, try to see your role here. I know a number of others have said this already. You are a prolific contributor, and you carry a lot of weight here. Such influence comes with the downside of having any negative qualities magnified considerably. You are certainly not the most troublesome contributor here by merit of your actions alone, but your standing in this forum sets the bar higher. One need not be a mod to incur a responsibility to the well-being of this forum.

I am both glad and nervous in so knowing.

However I am confident that you can rise to the occasion. Learn to exercise restraint and discipline in your contributions. Sometimes less is more. Sometimes not calling someone on their BS and simply ignoring it causes others to do the same, whereas engaging with them only draws more attention to their inanity.

Mind = blown. That really works?

You've picked some good people to ask for advice, and I would certainly heed it.

About it not being his call.

Oh, OK.

We are legion.

O.O

I'm not sure what specifically you are referring to here. You've certainly changed since you first arrived here, as many do, and will no doubt continue to. Part of this change entails serious reflection with respect to the person you are becoming and the ideal toward which you strive.

I don't quite understand whether you're describing what I have done, do, or am doing, or whether you're asking me to do what you describe. As for change, I was talking about the rampant e-hugging that I no longer do.

You have likely improved in some areas, and some of your strengths have likely become ever stronger during your tenure here. However we are here to address your ills because we hope that you will be able to respond to our advice with maturity.

OK.

You seem to have a rather thorough understanding of the areas in which you need to improve,

Note that I only have that understanding because I queried the mods for specifics and derived the necessary conclusions. To continue my airplane analogy: I now have a map in my head, but I'm still trying to figure out how to fly the plane.

and you are encouraged to reflect and experiment with ways to remedy them.

Experiment, you say? Oi. This process will take a long time.

We are well aware that you and redbaron frequently take potshots at one another when the opportunity presents itself.

He's even got the perfect name for occasional duels. Now all I need is a doghouse.

However, if we felt that redbaron's posts in this thread were anything other than good advice we would have made that perfectly clear.

Ooh. Yikes.

-Duxwing

 

[redbaron]

This is going to be my last post in this thread for at least a few days, I've given more than my $0.02 - and I think I'm possibly giving the wrong impression that I'm out to get Duxwing. Anyway, whatever.

I think that it's going to be somewhat important for you to eventually realise that emotions are an inherent part of all human beings. Trying to eliminate them entirely while simultaneously interacting with other people is futile.

One thing I find peculiar is that you are very quick to highlight the various ways in which you have tried responding to things - intuition, logic, with and without making implications etc. and how none of them work.

Seems as though you're glossing over the point that you don't need to respond at all. Fact is, you don't need to give your input on everything you disagree with on a semantic level.

Majority of the time people aren't 100% happy with the way they've expressed an idea, and knowing this, pressing people to clarify on every single point will uncover inconsistencies in their expression, however that's not really meaningful. It's just a product of their limited ability to express their thoughts - not the actual limits of their thoughts.

That's one part of what frustrates people - that you constantly request that they justify, explain and re-justify (and re-explain...and so on until... ) their expressions. Expressions that don't define them, or their thoughts.

To be fair, there are a lot of fucked-up people around here. Not that I personally consider them as such, but by conventional standards (whatever that is) they are. Chances are you probably won't identify and understand everyone on the forum. It's not your, 'right' to be able to either. Just as there's no onus on them to make you understand.

This forum is basically a think-tank - people blurt out lots of ideas and theorise on lots of different things, that they may or may not care to refine or understand in any greater depth, and it's easy to see why many would be (or rather, they are) frustrated when they are constantly tasked to do so.

In some ways I think certain members bear partial blame, for encouraging you with praise of high intelligence and great potential etc, essentially validating you for being so unflinchingly stubborn. Yet now that you're so prolific, they're not so sure whether they want you around as much.

Don't get this twisted either, I'm not saying this absolves you of blame - just that I can understand to some extent why you're so fucking confused as to why you're being put, 'on trial'.

Personally I think it's presumptuous and (somewhat) irresponsible to refer to impressionable minds as either gifted or untalented in such definite ways. Though that's assuming 'worst-case' scenario, that they're going to develop some sort of complex. Yet I think it's common enough for people to develop real psychological problems as a result of this sort of feedback (like children who are told they're, 'broken' and sent to therapy) that people should withhold such judgements until they know people more intimately.

Don't get this all twisted either though, I'm not saying this situation is akin to any sort of unjust trial. It's just a general observation of behaviour patterns I've noted through reading studies and personal experience - and this situation is certainly not relevant to any of those. Probably shouldn't have even brought it up, although I'm reluctant to delete it in case it gleans some small measure of insight for someone.

~~

That is my best guess. The way that logic gets used is so persistent and so extreme, it feels as if it's just kind of tool being used to protect something fragile underneath. It also results in this extreme overanalysis of advice, that ends up getting so lost in details that it misses the point of the advice.

I hate being all "+1", but yes, that's what I'm referring to.

 

[Hadoblado]

From a behaviourist perspective, you don't have much reason to reduce your posting at this moment in time. You enjoy the writing of long posts, you enjoy stating the obvious logic, and you enjoy the conflict that ensues. I'd even bet that you enjoy the interaction that comes from putting you on "trial".

Perhaps you should set yourself somewhat arbitrary goals?

- never respond with more words than was used in the initial post
- never respond to every single paragraph unless there are three or less
- If subject matter has been repeated twice, and you still can't bring anything new to the conversation, bring the conversation to an end in a respectable fashion.
- put at least as many words into asserting positive claims as you do rebuking the claims of others

These are just suggestions.

Justify these goals with the aim of self-improvement. You are improving your social and communicative skills. The more immediate benefit is that it provides an indirect quality control for your posts. You would have to pick and choose what you do and do not say, rather than blathering every modicum of thought that graces your consciousness.