Positive Misanthropy

[Cognisant]

I had a little epiphany today, it really improved my mood.

I've come to realise that misanthropy isn't actually a bad thing, indeed I think it's actually quite healthy, y'see I was having this conversation in my head (it was a talkshow for sociological issues) in which the misanthropic guest completely upstaged the host by saying:

"I may assume you're all assholes until proven wrong, but that doesn’t make me a bad person, because I keep it to myself, I don't impose my misanthropy on others or even treat them unfairly, just because I think they're an asshole is no excuse for me to be an asshole to them, except y'know when appropriate, and I'll get back to that, but for now just let me say, How Dare You" the host is utterly speechless "How dare you tell me how to think, how dare you assume that you're right and I'm wrong, how dare you try to impose your perspective on me simply because it's more publically accepted than mine."

The host "But arn't you acting like an asshole right now?" the guest replies "Ah yes, thank you for bringing me back to that, y'see contrary to atypical assumptions there are in fact situations where it's appropriate to be an asshole, to stand up for oneself, to disturb the peace. For y'see you were treating me unfairly, you were telling me how to think, imposing yourself on me, which you have absolutely no right to do, and as a result I felt the need to stand up for myself, and that's exactly what I'm doing right now, I'm standing up to you, you egotistical fucktard" the host smiles now thinking he sees a way out "But that was unnecessarily uncivil, don't you-" the guest cuts him off "So? Do you think you're entitled to my civility? You're not. You're just a worthless peace of shit and you think I'm being unfair then you should stand up to me, tell me I'm wrong, hit me if you must, and y'know what, I may not like you, I may not think of you as nice, but I’ll tell you what, I'll respect you".

From here on it's a one man show, the guest goes on to say how misanthropy is just like hoping for the best but expecting the worst, it's all a matter of ideals, because a misanthrope consistently expects the worst of people s/he can take notice of all the little benevolent things people do. In effect a misanthrope can actually seem incredibly nice, noticing and sincerely thanking anyone who is nice/civil to hir (gender neutral pronoun FYI) precisely because it conflicts with the misanthrope's expectations.

I love stuff like that, the silver lining to this darker than black world.
Btw I think the guest became my new talkshow host

Edit: I can't tell if I'm going sane, or TOTALLY fucked up.

 

[CoryJames]

I feel as though you might have some sort of little (big?) nugget of anger or discontent somewhere under the surface that should be dealt with.

I come to this conclusion based on the gap between excitement/happiness/interest you show in/about/because of this, and the amount that it would appear to warrant as it has been portrayed. If another reader disagrees, please say so, as the gap might then, in fact, be on my side.

It seems as if you may care a bit too much about and draw a little too much pleasure from what appears to be nothing more than one man "besting"(I guess...?) another using somewhat narcissistic logic and threatening, aggressive cussing.

All this leads me to believe that this is the sort of action you believe warrants respect, and the elation this seems to bring you, even occurring only in your head, shows that you envy this, and picture yourself doing it.

All that remains to be figured out is what happened to you that makes you want to return for a rematch, and this time come out on top as the tough, sharp tongued and even more sharp minded (self-perceived btw) victor. I am guessing some sort of big public embarrassment, or perhaps not one large event but a constantly occurring dismissal that leads to this yearn for the acknowledgement of what you perceive as intelligent, societal reform (in which you've made everyone, except maybe you, an asshole).

any accuracy?

 

[Cognisant]

It seems as if you may care a bit too much about and draw a little too much pleasure from what appears to be nothing more than one man "besting"(I guess...?) another using somewhat narcissistic logic and threatening, aggressive cussing.

no.

I'm enjoying the honesty, the breaking of boundaries, the host may have stood up for himself in return and quite rightly defended himself (the guest was being rude), and so we see the true nature of civility, not as an obligation, instead it's a sort of unspoken truce, you be nice to me and I'll be nice to you, but every day people exploit this truce, and we need to stop tolerating that, stop believing we have to.

Also there's the whole inner peace angle, if you expect people to be bastards you're not hurt when they are, it's merely natural, but when despite their nature they're not... that's beautiful, that's an atheist’s miracle.

 

[JoeJoe]

So, misanthropy is good, because it means you expect absolutely nothing from people, and because you are constantly proven wrong, you are surprised and happy?

I've had similar thoughts following a TED video about why we're not happier with a larger variety of products. One reason is, if for example you want to buy a new pair of jeans, you go to the shop and there's a huge assortment of jeans. You eventually take the one that fits best, but because you expected there to be a perfect pair of jeans in such a huge assortment and the pair you picked is quite good, but not perfect, you are disappointed and unhappy whereas if there were only 3 different models in different sizes, you already know, that the pants will be too wide here and to tight there, but you won't be disappointed.

Although this attitude might work in theory, IMHO on a whole you will be less happy because a dark mood follows dark thoughts.

This leads to the question: Why has the human psyche evolved in such a way, that we expect good outcomes and risk being disappointed as opposed to always expecting the worst case scenario so that many positive surprises heighten your mood and well-being as a whole.
Maybe because pessimists tend to be blind for solutions?

 

[CoryJames]

no.

I'm enjoying the honesty, the breaking of boundaries, the host may have stood up for himself in return and quite rightly defended himself (the guest was being rude), and so we see the true nature of civility, not as an obligation, instead it's a sort of unspoken truce, you be nice to me and I'll be nice to you, but every day people exploit this truce, and we need to stop tolerating that, stop believing we have to.

Also there's the whole inner peace angle, if you expect people to be bastards you're not hurt when they are, it's merely natural, but when despite their nature they're not... that's beautiful, that's an atheist’s miracle.

We see the what? The truth?

So you honestly believe that the inherently one sided conversations between different aspects of your psyche accurately represent the the nature of anything, perhaps maybe the severity of your narcissism?

And again, when you say things like "expect people to be the bastards....not hurt when they are... the definitive nature of this statement just further shows your expectations of people, likely through conditioning, probably had people being dicks to you a lot or something.


I am going to give you a deep dark hint from the corner of James' Genius. I know one thing you could do, just one, that will give you all the happiness you get when you visualize yourself rhetorically schooling Mr. Talk Show host and then some. Next time someone is "being a bastard", just punch him in the face. Hard. Then do it again a few more times. Then walk away. You'll feel great trust me.

 

[JoeJoe]

Cory, as far as I can tell, Cog isn't really a misanthrope (as of yet). He was just theorizing about it and found it fascinating, therefor he is sharing it with us.

 

[Cognisant]

So you honestly believe that the inherently one sided conversations between different aspects of your psyche accurately represent the the nature of anything, perhaps maybe the severity of your narcissism?

You like that word don't you?
I know deep down I'm a bastard, I make no excuse for it, but I still try to be a better person.

And again, when you say things like "expect people to be the bastards....not hurt when they are... the definitive nature of this statement just further shows your expectations of people, likely through conditioning, probably had people being dicks to you a lot or something.

What are you trying to prove?

Next time someone is "being a bastard", just punch him in the face. Hard. Then do it again a few more times. Then walk away. You'll feel great trust me.

The first punch, okay sure, if I'm in the mood, but a sustained assault?
...
You seem to have taken the label "misanthrope" and ran off with it, okay so I don't like people, does that make me some pantomime villain, some psycho with repressed anger issues, or maybe, just maybe, I'm just a guy that has realised human nature is imperfect and so for the sake of his own sanity has decided to stop expecting it to be, both in himself and others, although that's no reason not to try to become better.

Btw, I think you have issues.

 

[JoeJoe]

Ummm... Could you please say whether this conclusion: "So, misanthropy is good, because it means you expect absolutely nothing from people, and because you are constantly proven wrong, you are surprised and happy?" is correct or not?

Thank you.

 

[Cognisant]

Although this attitude might work in theory, IMHO on a whole you will be less happy because a dark mood follows dark thoughts.

I feel pretty good, validated and amused, sure may take a dark perspective but I've lived a dark life, what matters is that I look for the silver lining, and because of my perspective I appreciate it more, which makes me feel... at peace.
The world is a sick sad place, but it's okay, I'm okay with it, I fit in it.

This leads to the question: Why has the human psyche evolved in such a way, that we expect good outcomes and risk being disappointed as opposed to always expecting the worst case scenario so that many positive surprises heighten your mood and well-being as a whole.
Maybe because pessimists tend to be blind for solutions?

And optimists are blind to the problems in their path, but I get the best of both worlds because I’m at ease with my pessimism, I don’t see any reason to be fatalistic or depressed, things are simply as they are.

Ummm... Could you please say whether this conclusion: "So, misanthropy is good, because it means you expect absolutely nothing from people, and because you are constantly proven wrong, you are surprised and happy?" is correct or not?

Correct.

Edit: More appreciative than surprised.

Edit2: We take civility for granted.

 

[warryer]

Now you know the power of the dark side.

I find myself regularly "being a bastard" in order to test which people are deserving of my respect. It's quite fun actually - like a game. It doesn't mean that those people will like your company though.

pro tip: It doesn't necessarily have to be the words you say but, also from (not-so) subtle body language.

Why are you so high and mighty, some may ask? That's the thing, I don't see myself as high and mighty but, rather as somebody who has the ability to break free from the rules of society at will. There is a time and a place for everything.

Edit: I can't tell if I'm going sane, or TOTALLY fucked up.

I'm glad you said that because now I know I'm not the only one.

 

[JoeJoe]

And optimists are blind to the problems in their path, but I get the best of both worlds because I’m at ease with my pessimism, I don’t see any reason to be fatalistic or depressed, things are simply as they are.

Hmm... Yeah, now that you say it, pure optimism doesn't seem like the best solution either. Also, I can't tell you of anyone I know personally off the top of my head, who is a complete optimist or pessimist. It seems for psychic and physical health/well-being a moderated viewpoint is to be preferred. Of course there will be inclinations toward one side or another.

But I'm still not exactly sure how this has come to be.

 

[Jennywocky]

Cory, as far as I can tell, Cog isn't really a misanthrope ... He was just theorizing about it and found it fascinating, therefor he is sharing it with us.

That's kinda how I saw it... but isn't all the needless drama and inferred bloodshed wonderful???

Cog... yup, there seems to be some sort of logic there. I just don't think that people can typically hold SUCH a typically negative view of others in their mind and still put out an extreme POSITIVE view toward them. Eventually you'd lose a hold of one or the other, and careen out of control in either direction.

I find I work just as effectively (and maybe moreso) being aware of the worst while still hoping and aiming for the best, without having to denigrate humanity in the process. It seems to be a good mix of idealism and realism for me.

 

[warryer]

I find I work just as effectively (and maybe moreso) being aware of the worst while still hoping and aiming for the best, without having to denigrate humanity in the process. It seems to be a good mix of idealism and realism for me.

Exactly

 

[5k17]

Since I'm a misanthrope, I've come to like people.
But what I call misanthropy is, in fact, the lack of collective arrogance, which is the term I use to describe the attitude of people who seem to think they are great, deserve respect and/or whatnot, just because they belong to the group of living beings, humans, or another, even smaller one. I tend to consider persons with one or more of certain attributes, whose exact features are not entirely known unto me, interesting and/or kawaii. The rest - which comprises the people I cannot empathize with - are generally deemed unworthy of my attention, if they do not directly appeal to it. This has the effect that most of the time, I simply do not care about people who would annoy me while, often to no avail (which is perfectly okay), I try to establish contact to those who may stimulate my mind and, in some cases, also my emotions. So, if you can call the lack of collective arrogance misanthropy, then the effects of misanthropy on me I find very positive. Otherwise, if misanthropy is more than general disrespect and slight disgust towards humans, I cannot see how it could be beneficial (to the individual, and from their point of view, of course).
This may also be about optimism and pessimism, which is probably not really a supportable distinction, except perhaps if there is further division into universal and personal optimism/pessimism, but I have not yet thought about latter matter enough to have an opinion on it.

 

[Cognisant]

Cog... yup, there seems to be some sort of logic there. I just don't think that people can typically hold SUCH a typically negative view of others in their mind and still put out an extreme POSITIVE view toward them. Eventually you'd lose a hold of one or the other, and careen out of control in either direction.

Well that's just it, such a negative view is unstainable, and the positive REACTION towards people (recognising them as the positive exception) is simply the price that must be paid to sustain it, whereas if you have a particularly positive view the price you must pay to sustain it is to recognise people who are the negative exception, i.e. to a misanthrope there's no "bad" people, they're just people being people, whereas to an optimist there's no "good" people, because that's just people being people.

 

[Agent Intellect]

Well that's just it, such a negative view is unstainable, and the positive REACTION towards people (recognising them as the positive exception) is simply the price that must be paid to sustain it, whereas if you have a particularly positive view the price you must pay to sustain it is to recognise people who are the negative exception, i.e. to a misanthrope there's no "bad" people, they're just people being people, whereas to an optimist there's no "good" people, because that's just people being people.

The same argument is often used for pessimism vs optimism: things will either meet the optimists expectations, or disappoint them; things will either meet the pessimists expectations, or pleasantly surprise them.

People start off blank in my view of them - neither good or bad. Starting with preconceived notions either way will sway the way you interact with them and then the results of your observations will be corrupted. I don't hate people or love people - I nothing them.

 

[Jon C]

Question... if your guest is an example of this "positive misanthropy" you are suggesting, then why are his actions negative? If he was already expecting the host to judge him and impose unfairly, should he be indifferent to it, as opposed to outraged?

 

[Black Rose]

Question... if your guest is an example of this "positive misanthropy" you are suggesting, then why are his actions negative? If he was already expecting the host to judge him and impose unfairly, should he be indifferent to it, as opposed to outraged?

The host is representative of of his own bigotry but the guest knows this bigotry for what it is and how to handle it in such a way as to keep it from harming those the guest wishes to protect. The guest talks to the host on the hosts level of understanding but the anger felt towards the host cannot be violent but to treat the situation as a hostage negotiation. The host thinks the guest is a pussy for wining about problems and thinks he is a hypocrite. The guest is showing balls by actually telling the host honestly that he hates him but cares more about the hostages safety. He tells the guest he knows what he is and so can defeats him with cunning maneuvers. The guest knows that the hosts bigotry is represented in all people but by self control negated. Thats why the guest can hate what the host stands for yet realizes to achieve the goals of peace harmony and love, regard his action towards the host as to the most reasonable way to prevent harmful consequences.

YouTube - Online Underground: Episode 5

 

[Jon C]

So he's fighting hate with hate? ... with the ultimate goal of peace, harmony, and love? I still don't follow.

 

[Black Rose]

So he's fighting hate with hate? ... with the ultimate goal of peace, harmony, and love? I still don't follow.

No.

He hates the *concept* of bigotry that is in all of us but realizes that *violently* apposing it is unproductive. It will always reside in people but by fluctuation of degree's. By showing bigots like the host part of himself that they must use violences is proof that they don't have a sound foundation for compassion and that this makes them a bigot. That is why the host did not punch the guest. The host see's a contradiction in his logic that violence against people just because they have emotions like hate does not mean they cannot control it.

In other words.

Righteous Anger =/= Rage brought about by black and white thinking

It O.K. to expect the worst of people from past experience/evidence but not to let it blind you from hope of progress.

 

[Jon C]

ah ok... So if I'm understanding correctly, he was simply providing the host with a mirror so he could look inside himself and recognize the counterproductivity in his bigotry.

 

[shoeless]

sounds to me like the guest needs to seriously chill the fuck out.

 

[echoplex]

One thing I'd wonder is how this philosophy would function for someone surrounded by really... well, awesome people. What happens if after, say, ten years of being mostly around these awesome people? Will the misanthrope just consider themselves lucky and still maintain that most of the chocolates of the world are bastard-filled? or will they (like most people prolly) adjust their expectations to fit this model of awesomeness they've enjoyed? What happens when they find themselves around the bastards of the world? Will their misanthropy still protect them from the disappointment and hurt most would experience? Does a misanthrope need steady doses of suckitude to fuel their worldview, or can they generate it even in a 'good' environment?

Probably silly questions; all they'd need is to read a history book or almost any kind of news report. ACTIVATE MISANTHROPIC POWER!!! For some reason I'm picturing a superhero who must refuel with negativity to keep his powers.

 

[AlisaD]

Am I the only one who finds the idea of Cog admiring a person who went on a TALK SHOW ridiculous?
Not only did he appear on a TALK SHOW, but he went on and took it over, became the host?

Isn't it common knowledge that all TALK SHOW hosts should be shot and killed at sight?

Other then that, I agree with AI. Why decide on people before getting to know them? Honestly, I try not to decide about people even when I do get to know them.
People are what they are, some will be nice, some will be assholes, and assholes will sometimes be nicer then the nice people.

 

[Cognisant]

Other then that, I agree with AI. Why decide on people before getting to know them?

Ideally we would get to know everyone we meet; sadly this is not an ideal world.
We have to interact with strangers every day, or at least I do.

Honestly, I try not to decide about people even when I do get to know them.

I'm not exactly talking about labelling people, I'm talking about expectations, someone who goes around labelling people as assholes and what-not is really just an unhappy optimist, whereas the pessimist simply recognises what the optimist considers asshole-behaviour to be simply natural.
Sure you may not go around labelling people, but you do have expectations concerning what is or is not natural behaviour for them.

 

[kantor1003]

I'm talking about expectations, someone who goes around labelling people as assholes and what-not is really just an unhappy optimist

Love this.

 

[AlisaD]

I'm not a Christian, but I think the guy had a point when he said: "Ask and it shall be given to you"
How do you ask jerks for companionship, help, or just random acts of kindness?

 

[Cognisant]

How do you ask anyone for companionship, help, or just random acts of kindness?

Seriously I have no idea

Edit: Well okay I know how to ask for help, but I don't know how to do so without it feeling like I'm hiring a contractor with my dignity as currency.

 

[AlisaD]

How do you ask anyone for companionship, help, or just random acts of kindness?

Seriously I have no idea

Edit: Well okay I know how to ask for help, but I don't know how to do so without it feeling like I'm hiring a contractor with my dignity as currency.

I know. That's sad. Stop it.

 

[Da Blob]

Actually I think that Misanthropy is a legitimate POV. Just because everyone possesses a human brain, does not necessitate the use of a human mind as software in that generic hardware. In fact, I believe only a few minds every grow to be fully human, but most are stuck at some primitive evolutionary junction.
Ken Wilbur, in his Up from Eden had a similar thought, but I think he really watered down the concept of the subhuman - plus he did not provide neurological basis for his theory...

 

[GYX_Kid]

a this-type of misanthrope, who also would take risks that didn't necessarily depend on the possibility of shit from an asshole = win (unless maybe they were testing the asshole)

well, society is pretty chaotic but not either extreme...what is it, something like 4% of the population are considered sociopaths, 4% genuinely kind-hearted generous people with minimal hypocritical tendencies, 52% garden-variety asshole and 40% other (including anything- people causing any outcome)

actually i have no idea

i just have my doubts and obvious boundaries, and willingness to express a doubt that would be respected by any worthwhile person

 

[socialexpat]

Edit: I can't tell if I'm going sane, or TOTALLY fucked up.

Totally FUCKED UP !