• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

Pod'Lair review

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Today 3:31 AM
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,691
---
So I'm trying to to crack into PL to assess it's value. I'll collect notes on this thread. Apologies for any mistakes, please correct any you see ...

A couple of videos have been helpful, note that Zai'nyy is the INTP equivalent (I'm sure PLarians cringe at that comparison)

NFGeeks Brad, you are a Zai'nyy

Which analyzes NFGeeks Brad who I'm familiar with (see link in the comments).

Another video is the general Zai'nyy mojo crash course, which has a primer you are supposed to watch first, but which I didn't find particularly useful.

The first video (an hour long) has the most meat. In it Adymus talks about Zai'nyy extensively. Interestingly I found many characteristics in my self that resonate with the Zai'nyy character

  • Spider hands (yes I do this), including examples like minimal head scratching (watch the vid on this one)
  • Cool tower tunnel voice. I've spent many years studying voice and music and was not able to move much beyond speaking from my vocal chords rather than my diaphragm. Apparantly it's due to my type/mojo.
  • Breathy laugh (I'm rarely a big laugher)
  • Look right/Ti/Zai (yes I tend to look right when thinking/Ti/Zai)
  • Look left/Ne/nyy (yes I tend to look left when exploring/Ne/nyy)

Initial conclusion: so far the PL material is equally available from advanced understanding of MBTI, namely the functions and how they express, with the valuable addition of physiological cues mentioned above which MBTI does not posit. The PLarians deride typology as too simplistic, but that is taking a simplistic view of MBTI (namely the simple four letters). So far the functional view of MBTI looks equivalent to PL theory, but I'm just beginning to crack it.
 

Oblivious

Is Kredit to Team!!
Local time
Today 6:31 PM
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
1,266
---
Location
Purgatory with the cool kids
Though I am just on onlooker, I appreciate what you are doing here.:)
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
I don't know if this thread will be allowed to stay open. @Kuu seems to have taken a censorship policy towards this heresy and the controversy it generates, dedicating this forum solely to antiquated approaches. *


I can help you out with this/your research if it does remain uncensored, though.


*(People don't seem to get dialectics, or the dialectic of history. Or that the truth of the matter needs to be the driving concern to get to the truth of the matter. I.e. It wasn't a valid response to Darwin to say 'well you evolution people can go publish your pamphlets elsewhere with your fractious troublemaking and immorality. Those who want to can leave our universities and communities and go talk to you.' This is pathetic and beneath the spirit of free inquiry and integrity in one's own position and the necessity of its public defense that has allowed all the West's progress to really be made. It is utterly shameful conduct not worthy of what this forum has at times been, and is an outright statement of ossification with regards to its central topic.)
 

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
Local time
Today 5:31 AM
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
3,783
---
So I'm trying to to crack into PL to assess it's value. I'll collect notes on this thread. Apologies for any mistakes, please correct any you see ...

A couple of videos have been helpful, note that Zai'nyy is the INTP equivalent (I'm sure PLarians cringe at that comparison)

NFGeeks Brad, you are a Zai'nyy

Which analyzes NFGeeks Brad who I'm familiar with (see link in the comments).

Another video is the general Zai'nyy mojo crash course, which has a primer you are supposed to watch first, but which I didn't find particularly useful.

The first video (an hour long) has the most meat. In it Adymus talks about Zai'nyy extensively. Interestingly I found many characteristics in my self that resonate with the Zai'nyy character

  • Spider hands (yes I do this), including examples like minimal head scratching (watch the vid on this one)
  • Cool tower tunnel voice. I've spent many years studying voice and music and was not able to move much beyond speaking from my vocal chords rather than my diaphragm. Apparantly it's due to my type/mojo.
  • Breathy laugh (I'm rarely a big laugher)
  • Look right/Ti/Zai (yes I tend to look right when thinking/Ti/Zai)
  • Look left/Ne/nyy (yes I tend to look left when exploring/Ne/nyy)

Initial conclusion: so far the PL material is equally available from advanced understanding of MBTI, namely the functions and how they express, with the valuable addition of physiological cues mentioned above which MBTI does not posit. The PLarians deride typology as too simplistic, but that is taking a simplistic view of MBTI (namely the simple four letters). So far the functional view of MBTI looks equivalent to PL theory, but I'm just beginning to crack it.

I like where this could go. Keep it coming, Archie! :)

-Duxwing
 

Da Blob

Banned
Local time
Today 4:31 AM
Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
5,926
---
Location
Oklahoma
Ladies And Gentlemen!

A cult is a cult,

Remember David Koresh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh

This total loser became a cult leader by stroking the egos of his followers, it is an ancient trap leading one's prey to believe that they are Superior to mere men.

In this case, due to knowledge of PLanaria, one is suppose to ascend to some exalted status:kilroy:
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
Ladies And Gentlemen!

A cult is a cult,

Remember David Koresh

David_Koresh

This total loser became a cult leader by stroking the egos of his followers, it is an ancient trap leading one's prey to believe that they are Superior to mere men.

In this case, due to knowledge of PLanaria, one is suppose to ascend to some exalted status:kilroy:
I don't get why people think it's ok to dehumanise others like that by denying them their right to integrity in their own judgements/reason. Rejecting it all outright by some label that makes their words less than, less real than, those of others. If you actually knew me or saw how I interacted with Pod'Lair, how I came to it, and the exchanges that happened you'd at least get that it's based upon a rational assessment of a phenomenon and its implications.

I am a free and independent human being and when I argue for this I do so with reason, long explication, and invitation to observe and assess further. I'm not the one scared and protecting some phantom that supports my fragile self-image or group-validation, here. I'm confident in my position and I want people to understand what's going on because I think they'll see it's a strong one if/when they do. I want probing, exposes, dialectic, and argument.

Why are people so scared to let free discussion of the actual issue at hand-- the evidence, what we're seeing, in detail, and in precise relation to what we're saying it means-- take place?
 

tikru

Member
Local time
Today 4:31 AM
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
99
---
I don't get why people think it's ok for Pod'lair to dehumanise others like that by denying others their right to integrity in their own judgements/reason. Rejecting it all outright by some label that makes their words less than, less real than, those of others... like calling someone stupid, unaware, toxic, zombies, robots, because they can't see what I see or are unwilling to look, or because they aren't strong enough to see what I see, as I have determined what I see to be truth, and not wanting to take a good look at themselves like I have taken a good look at myself, and not having my past experiences that led me to be attracted to certain ideas... their path being a lesser one than mine, not stated outright but still felt in the message.

I am a free and independent human being and when I argue for this I do so with reason, long explication, and invitation to observe and assess further.
your thread in Literature suggests otherwise. Constant guarding against criticism... hiding behind an 'act of spirit form' not related to identity because you don't have one which seems fine to me, but why so sensitive then?

I'm not the one scared and protecting some phantom that supports my fragile self-image or group-validation, here. I'm confident in my position and I want people to understand what's going on because I think they'll see it's a strong one if/when they do. I want probing, exposes, dialectic, and argument.

There has been plenty of discussion of Pod'lair concepts, but those who belong to Pod'lair are also quick to ignore the arguments concerning behavior towards others, questionable philosophy not-so-set-in-stone, hive-mind attacks, etc...

Why are people so scared to let free discussion of the actual issue at hand-- the evidence, what we're seeing, in detail, and in precise relation to what we're saying it means-- take place?

I'd say they're more angry or disturbed than afraid. Pod'lair has no tact. It (as an abstract entity) sets itself up as the most important discovery in the universe, ignoring past discoveries that led to it, all in service of what appears to be Ego. "dismantling' spiritual practices as if they've taken the years and years of time to practice it and reducing it to a different definition, one that falls in line with the New Religion. (Nirvana -> Shiny Baby)

And what you are trying to set up is basically a new religion. One that is syncretistic, gathering ideas from different parts of the intellectual map and throwing them in the stew, letting it boil and creating the supposed philosophical Gold. It sets up a unique consciousness that might lead one astray from their own past experiences and identity if one decides to fully intitiate oneself in the intellectual practice. There is plenty of evidence of this in the group-think attacks towards people going about their day, coming across something different, a person in a video telling them what they believe is wrong and that they have the answers that will enlighten them (the message: and don't be stupid enough to not listen to me) "Stupid" used as a smoke signal for the insecure. The mature are confident enough in themselves to know what children look like when they're playing their imaginary games.
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
your thread in Literature suggests otherwise. Constant guarding against criticism... hiding behind an 'act of spirit form' not related to identity because you don't have one which seems fine to me, but why so sensitive then?
Different context. That thread was mostly about my poetry when what you're discussing was occurring, and if I remember correctly very little if any of what I disliked was either substantial or about Pod'Lair. It was just random nonsense and unrelated insults or Pi being Pi with no concern for anything outside of him being Pi everywhere or what Piness does to other things.

There has been plenty of discussion of Pod'lair concepts, but those who belong to Pod'lair are also quick to ignore the arguments concerning behavior towards others, questionable philosophy not-so-set-in-stone, hive-mind attacks, etc...
I'm quick to dismiss irrelevancies so we can get down to substance, which is what this thread attempts, and what, again, the useless noise is at risk of drowning out.

I'd say they're more angry or disturbed than afraid. Pod'lair has no tact. It (as an abstract entity) sets itself up as the most important discovery in the universe, ignoring past discoveries that led to it, all in service of what appears to be Ego. "dismantling' spiritual practices as if they've taken the years and years of time to practice it and reducing it to a different definition, one that falls in line with the New Religion. (Nirvana -> Shiny Baby)
It isn't about ego any more than whatever else is. You don't understand what you're talking about or the foundation of those critiques. They are based in a direct Reading of the interface between the phenomenon in question and different memetic influences. Buddhism, for example, etiolates many configurations of people in the vast majority of its forms.

And what you are trying to set up is basically a new religion. One that is syncretistic, gathering ideas from different parts of the intellectual map and throwing them in the stew, letting it boil and creating the supposed philosophical Gold. It sets up a unique consciousness that might lead one astray from their own past experiences and identity if one decides to fully intitiate oneself in the intellectual practice. There is plenty of evidence of this in the group-think attacks towards people going about their day, coming across something different, a person in a video telling them what they believe is wrong and that they have the answers that will enlighten them (the message: and don't be stupid enough to not listen to me) "Stupid" used as a smoke signal for the insecure. The mature are confident enough in themselves to know what children look like when they're playing their imaginary games.
Nope. It's not syncretic at all-- it informs widely. If those who haven't researched would refrain from drowning out all possibility of reasoned exploration and discussion with their repetitive assumptions, you might even get a chance to see that unfolding in this thread. A chance to observe an analysis of this phenomenon in depth and see precisely how it does or does not lead to certain implications.

As for the conduct, in my experience people generally request Pod'Lair be more apologetic than they themselves are required to be just because what it presents is new or unfamiliar. What we're dealing with are quite widespread misconceptions and errors in approach, so, yes, there's a lot of clashing at this stage. But that doesn't make the louder voice, the more accepted voice, the right one. And it doesn't make all those who are speaking in the less common voice one, conformist, or brainwashed by group-think.

Yes, we do back one another up. But that is because we are a very few individual who have commonly found their way to a very difficult and dangerous position in relation to current social mores. Alone, that type of position is just crushed. We are far more mobbed, far more insulted, far more denied a right to a reasoned voice than anyone trying to 'crush' us (that's a quote) by 'whatever means' (quote) or get us 'shut down' (quote) or calling us 'mentally ill' (quote) in an inherent sense. We seek to deal with individual reasons and reactions, never to smear a person's essence, never to stifle rational debate, never to hide.

The thing is, none of this will make sense without the core phenomenon and how it is approached and what implications we take from that. It will all just be irrelevant projection and assumption. This thread, like the Greatest Game challenge was attempting, is on the right kind of track. Your post, Blob's, the censorship-- that's all just noise and mobbing and reacting blindly to the uncommon.
 

snafupants

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 4:31 AM
Joined
May 31, 2010
Messages
5,007
---
Even if the theoretical basis of Pod'Lair were psychometrically robust and further in its development, the esoteric verbiage is simply too quirky to be embraced by practitioners, lay or otherwise, and institutions. It's also socially repellant that Pod'Lair assessments need the imprimatur of a "licensed" Pod'Lair acolyte. I see Pod'Lair as essentially shooting itself in the foot - by distancing itself from other typologies, which clearly inform Pod'Lair, it jettisons the opportunity to use criterion validity measures and other things to buoy itself in stature.
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
Yeah, but we're not going for them. What y'all don't realise is that we're just stopping by in typology town. It's not our target audience and it never was. Leave the strategy to us (we're good at it, really... you have no idea) and how about we do what INTPf should be about-- the truth of the matter. No more social conformist how-should-it-be-done bullshit. Just whether what we're saying is true, and what it is we're actually saying. Reasoned exploration and analysis and curiosity, old-time Greek style. With a little modern freedom of speech thrown in for good measure.*

Seriously, that's what this thread's about. Why not let it be about that? There's still another random Pod'Lair thread open if you want to go and attack whatever it is you're assuming matters.


--
*Preferably free from busbody mods who've forgotten the opportunities and liberties of being young and free-minded all too soon. Seriously, what is it with you people and authority positions? Did you really look up to your elders and think 'damn, that's how I want to do things, let's control and hem in and perpetuate 'cos it's working out great. I want position and hierarchy!'? I mean wtf... the sycophancy of humans seemingly has no reasonable limits.
 

snafupants

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 4:31 AM
Joined
May 31, 2010
Messages
5,007
---
Yeah, but we're not going for them. What y'all don't realise is that we're just stopping by in typology town. It's not our target audience and it never was. Leave the strategy to us (we're good at it, really... you have no idea) and how about we do what INTPf should be about-- the truth of the matter.

I'm going to be nice about this but your strategy can't be that great if you managed to offend everyone you sent a video to a few weeks back. Notoriety isn't synonymous with acceptance.
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
I'm going to be nice about this but your strategy can't be that great if you managed to offend everyone you sent a video to a few weeks back. Notoriety isn't synonymous with acceptance.

I think you missed the point of my last post.
 

snafupants

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 4:31 AM
Joined
May 31, 2010
Messages
5,007
---
I think you missed the point of my last post.

Not really. You have shown yourself maladroit at strategic action (e.g., NF Geeks showdown), which belies a point in that post.

and how about we do what INTPf should be about-- the truth of the matter.
How about it? Well, you have no credentials, validity numbers, or credibility outside of the cult.

Why are you even talking? If you're merely "stopping by in typology town" then when are you leaving?! You seem to be lingering on this forum spewing unsubstantiated garbage.
 

tikru

Member
Local time
Today 4:31 AM
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
99
---
Different context. That thread was mostly about my poetry when what you're discussing was occurring, and if I remember correctly very little if any of what I disliked was either substantial or about Pod'Lair. It was just random nonsense and unrelated insults or Pi being Pi with no concern for anything outside of him being Pi everywhere or what Piness does to other things.

You've missed my point, I believe. Your poetry was attacking the members of this forum in an irrational manner... which makes your dislike of irrational attacks towards Pod'lair seem somewhat ironic.

I'm quick to dismiss irrelevancies so we can get down to substance, which is what this thread attempts, and what, again, the useless noise is at risk of drowning out.

irrelevancies... useless... meh. It's very difficult to converse with you. You hate when freedom of speech is squashed, yet you decide what is irrelevant and useless.


As for the conduct, in my experience people generally request Pod'Lair be more apologetic than they themselves are required to be just because what it presents is new or unfamiliar.
It doesn't seem to me that people want Pod'lair to be apologetic... maybe open instead of closed... open to criticism... or less hostile towards people (not objects)... and not using people as pawns in your bizarre game (where's the Xai?).

What we're dealing with are quite widespread misconceptions and errors in approach, so, yes, there's a lot of clashing at this stage. But that doesn't make the louder voice, the more accepted voice, the right one.
Of course.

And it doesn't make all those who are speaking in the less common voice one, conformist, or brainwashed by group-think.

Of course not. But the voice is a distinct voice. The arguments made by this voice are framed in Pod'Lair's unique philosophy... One that should be discussed in full instead of just the physiognomy.

Yes, we do back one another up. But that is because we are a very few individual who have commonly found their way to a very difficult and dangerous position in relation to current social mores.

Why is it difficult and dangerous?

Alone, that type of position is just crushed. We are far more mobbed, far more insulted, far more denied a right to a reasoned voice than anyone trying to 'crush' us (that's a quote) by 'whatever means' (quote) or get us 'shut down' (quote) or calling us 'mentally ill' (quote) in an inherent sense.
Isn't this irrelevant? Idk. If you're a hero, that should be fuel for your fire, right? Your reasoned voice? lol

We seek to deal with individual reasons and reactions, never to smear a person's essence, never to stifle rational debate, never to hide.

When you are the judge of a person's essence, you hold a bit of that essence in your hand. It's a power move. It's just something that doesn't gel right with me. Power moves beget power moves btw.

It will all just be irrelevant projection and assumption. This thread, like the Greatest Game challenge was attempting, is on the right kind of track. Your post, Blob's, the censorship-- that's all just noise and mobbing and reacting blindly to the uncommon.

:confused: be careful when deciding which ideas are being projected...
 

crippli

disturbed
Local time
Today 11:31 AM
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
1,779
---
and how about we do what INTPf should be about-- the truth of the matter. No more social conformist how-should-it-be-done bullshit. Just whether what we're saying is true, and what it is we're actually saying. Reasoned exploration and analysis and curiosity, old-time Greek style. With a little modern freedom of speech thrown in for good measure.*
That sound all good, as you well know. The only problem is that the board is tired with PL when it seems the same. Try to make a 1000 threads about cars. Nonetheless, this thread has not been closed yet, although it will if it continue the path it's taking...in general, my advice, do not feed the ..... if you want this thread to stay alive...

I understand that you are interested in this, and would like to have us look at it for validation. And yes, we will, and have, helped you and others of PL out. But often it's difficult to have them listen. Just be patient. It takes a bit of time to run a proper INTP analyses. We have our doctors on the task. Rest assured.

A pill will be presented, and I do hope we will all be wise enough to swallow. In the mean time, we should relax and enjoy the process.
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
You've missed my point, I believe. Your poetry was attacking the members of this forum in an irrational manner... which makes your dislike of irrational attacks towards Pod'lair seem somewhat ironic.

What? No... it really wasn't. All of the poetry posted before the drama in that thread started was written months ago.
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
Not really. You have shown yourself maladroit at strategic action (e.g., NF Geeks showdown), which belies a point in that post.


How about it? Well, you have no credentials, validity numbers, or credibility outside of the cult.

Why are you even talking? If you're merely "stopping by in typology town" then when are you leaving?! You seem to be lingering on this forum spewing unsubstantiated garbage.


Credentials? Validity numbers? What the fuck? What we have is proof of what we're saying of the appropriate kind, but that can never be established or gotten into or explained in depth-- to the extent it might be actually judged in terms of what's actually being said-- if it's drowned out with 'it doesn't fit current standards in any easily parsable way therefore it's invalid'. All of that and why that happens is covered in our position, but out position can't be understood without actually understanding our position. I can't justify my arguments against this kind of bullshit in as strong a way as they can be justified to people dead-set on only dealing with the conclusion and not the steps/basis of the argument/perspective.

This is such bullshit, snafu. Just circles and circles to refuse looking at what we say it's necessary to look at for any of it to make any sense.

As for strategy-- time will tell. What you call maladroit might seem so to you, but that's impossible to judge if you don't get what we're going for. Which you won't. Without first understanding our position.
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
irrelevancies... useless... meh. It's very difficult to converse with you. You hate when freedom of speech is squashed, yet you decide what is irrelevant and useless.
This is stupid. Physics research is covered by freedom of speech but couldn't happen if there wasn't some filtration system for relevance. Useless noise/babble prevents meaningful convo. I'm not trying to quash it. Just hoping that it can perhaps stick to the other general threads so we can get somewhere new with this one. Not my call if y'all want to retard all of the place all over again, but it is futile and stupid if you do.

It doesn't seem to me that people want Pod'lair to be apologetic... maybe open instead of closed... open to criticism... or less hostile towards people (not objects)... and not using people as pawns in your bizarre game (where's the Xai?).
This is the same thing. Experts/leaders in a discipline don't need to care what some random pleb who didn't take the time to learn the basics thinks he should do differently. We respond as is appropriate. When faced with genuine questions or curiosity or interest or even criticism from people who know the theory we deal with it courteously and generously.

Of course not. But the voice is a distinct voice. The arguments made by this voice are framed in Pod'Lair's unique philosophy... One that should be discussed in full instead of just the physiognomy.
My voice in the DM thread is not one any other Pod'Lair have used before. My voice on this forum is my own, but in support of a position. Go check my old posts on this forum if you're seriously making this point. This is, again, irrelevant bullshit. Irrelevant to the truth of the matter. Just a distraction that prevents what this game actually is, and what roles people are actually taking in relation to it, being clarified.

Isn't this irrelevant? Idk. If you're a hero, that should be fuel for your fire, right? Your reasoned voice? lol
Yup. Which is why this is happening. But I'm not going to be willingly painted as some big-bad-wolf cyber-bully or whatever by Mike/InterPersonality/others who have publicly stated they want to use 'whatever levers of power' they can 'manipulate' to 'crush' Pod'Lair. These people have businesses and reputations at stake, so I just want to keep that and the phony ploys they're running distinct from a point-by-point analysis of what we're actually saying.

When you are the judge of a person's essence, you hold a bit of that essence in your hand. It's a power move. It's just something that doesn't gel right with me. Power moves beget power moves btw.
We give people the facts of the matter, give them all the material they need to analyse them independent of any social structure or engagement, and state what we think it the best thing to do with it. This is hardly abusing people. We tell it as it is. Our expertise in how it is makes us far better at certain things than anyone else in public, but we frankly don't give a fuck if it gels with you or whatever. We care about the facts of the matter.

The facts of the matter. What is you people's bizarre issue with this and the desire to clarify it or for others to get them straight before 'criticicising' us. It's just reams of amateur bullshit from morons. Not any criticism of us inherently, but all this that's proliferating currently. Architect is doing something worthwhile and I'd like to help him out with that. The rest... lazy idiots drowning useful signals out with their noise and inability to hold their tongue on things they're not well-informed enough to speak on.
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
That sound all good, as you well know. The only problem is that the board is tired with PL when it seems the same. Try to make a 1000 threads about cars. Nonetheless, this thread has not been closed yet, although it will if it continue the path it's taking...in general, my advice, do not feed the ..... if you want this thread to stay alive...

I understand that you are interested in this, and would like to have us look at it for validation. And yes, we will, and have, helped you and others of PL out. But often it's difficult to have them listen. Just be patient. It takes a bit of time to run a proper INTP analyses. We have our doctors on the task. Rest assured.

A pill will be presented, and I do hope we will all be wise enough to swallow. In the mean time, we should relax and enjoy the process.

'The board is tired'? What? This is a thread started by a member about a topic, to which I responded. The only reason it's 'the same' as other topics is because you and other lazy, uninformed and incurious people like you are here forcing it to be the same, and refusing to allow different threads of discussion/approach to develop.

There's no such thing as an INTP, this board has 'helped' nobody in PL, and you're talking unwarranted condescending nonsense and acting like you're an authority. Lame.

So much irrelevant bullshit. Endlessly and endlessly. I guess this board really did just go downhill and get filled with brainless cretins.
 

snafupants

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 4:31 AM
Joined
May 31, 2010
Messages
5,007
---
'The board is tired'? What? This is a thread started by a member about a topic, to which I responded. The only reason it's 'the same' as other topics is because you and other lazy, uninformed and incurious people like you are here forcing it to be the same, and refusing to allow different threads of discussion/approach to develop.
Or it could be the same because you haven't provided any validity numbers.

There's no such thing as an INTP, this board has 'helped' nobody in PL, and you're talking unwarranted condescending nonsense and acting like you're an authority. Lame.
Wait, that's what the other party is doing?

So much irrelevant bullshit. Endlessly and endlessly. I guess this board really did just go downhill and get filled with brainless cretins.

You have a low opinion of yourself and your comrades. :D
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
Wait, that's what the other party is doing?
Warranted condescending sense.
 

tikru

Member
Local time
Today 4:31 AM
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
99
---
What? No... it really wasn't. All of the poetry posted before the drama in that thread started was written months ago.

hmm poetry in a general sense. Poetic language describing ideas that attracted you to Pod'lair.

In regards to the next reply... I was just openly expressing thoughts. If you feel the need to resort to name calling then that's your prerogative I suppose. You're kind of despicable. Oh well. I couldn't resist.

Time to hit the ol' hay stack. Good night.
 

crippli

disturbed
Local time
Today 11:31 AM
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
1,779
---
'The board is tired'? What?
A question. Yay. Of course. You must have noticed the number of times requests to make your material available, so one can look at it in one place. At least the basics. Architect had to watch an hour of video in the OP. When you present enough material for analysis, you will get proper analyses, as is what you want? If not, then I was mistaken, fine.

Personally, I find that PL has taken the abstract aspect of MBTI out of the equation and replaced it with one of subjectivity. And then made it less interesting. This is my problem with it. Like, look right is one power, like Ne. What you say is that this is irrefutable forensic evidence. Now, that is taking a position of authority. And you didn't like me acting, as was quite obvious I did..heh. But do I get annoyed, no. Just tired, and a little amused.


Or it could be the same because you haven't provided any validity numbers.


Wait, that's what the other party is doing?



You have a low opinion of yourself and your comrades. :D
:phear:
 

Kuu

>>Loading
Local time
Today 4:31 AM
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
3,446
---
Location
The wired
I don't know if this thread will be allowed to stay open. @Kuu seems to have taken a censorship policy towards this heresy and the controversy it generates, dedicating this forum solely to antiquated approaches.

I'm not interested in censorship, I just don't want a million threads full of the same repetitive whining. (Why do I have to explain this, as if this hadn't happened many times before?) I had indeed asked to keep it all on one thread. I find your disingenuous posturing to be quite repulsive.

And this is, after all, INTPforum, not the Lair of the Pod People. Users are perfectly capable of going to google and finding some other place to talk about it, I'm sure, where there might even be capable of having a better discussion and not pointless exercises in futility. But you're clearly intent on active evangelizing, so hoping that will happen would be foolish.

I'll let this one live, but, for a second time, I warn that I *will* close any others.
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Today 3:31 AM
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,691
---
I started this thread in an honest attempt to discover what PL has to offer. All discussion about PL is welcome, I'll stick to reporting my observations and judgements going forward. Personally I'm also quite curious how it will turn out, will PL be a friend or foe?

Notes: (time codes in paren)

  • Adymus's time codes are off, they didn't correspond correctly to the Brad video. His points were clear enough at any rate.
  • When Mrs Archie (INFJ) saw the video I was watching which switched between PL members (she knows a little about PL from things I've mentioned) she outburst They look like a bunch of bad INFJ's! She was responding to the look and design of the video mostly. Having grown up in a born again Christian household she's sensitive to that kind of thing.
  • (20) Discussion about Socrates/INTP/Zainyy. His comments about that we are unable to type or Read him at this point could have well been said from a MBTI perspective - I've made the same point myself.
  • (20:40) Discussing how not all INTP's are shy with new people. Sure, that isn't an original observation Adymus. People have programming (MBTI) which is mediated by the personality (our neocortex makeup), so not everybody expresses their type/mojo the same. However, despite what Adymus says about being able to be outgoing, I doubt he is as outgoing as say, Bill Clinton. This is why he is INTP/Zainyy.
  • (21) His discussions on probabilities of behaviors manifesting in types (he disagrees with the idea) is not clear. He states that it's not probabilistic but doesn't explain why not, except that it has to do with 'poor development'. I think he misunderstands the idea, from an outside observer with no certain knowledge of another individual, we use probabilities to guess at how they'll likely behave. I doubt PL has it down to a certainty.
  • (22:48) Here Adymus mentions what sounds precisely like the functional stack, however PL looks like it includes the shadow functions as he talks about four more, which then wrap around (circular buffer) back to the top again. In MBTI there isn't consensus on shadow functions, my personal suspicion is that they are 'six sigma' off of your functional stack, so effectively lost in the noise. Sure, I can Te - but I do it very little as it costs much more energy than my first two functions.
  • (23-24) Peak pathways - yes, this is discussion that is either common sense or could have well has been applied to MBTI.
  • (25) Take down of MBTI/INTP. He doesn't clearly explain why MBTI is flawed. He mistakenly paints MBTI in black and white colors (J versus P), without seeming to understand the functions, and that some functions are Judging functions (Ti) and some are perceiving (Ni), for example.
  • (28:30) Peak pathways again - has to do with being in your 'perfect position', and walking the 'path of that perfect position'. OK, so PL has to do with 'mental state' or 'energy' management somehow. Interesting idea, I'd say MBTI also addresses that, as 'acting in the grip' (for example) is known as a psychically wasteful and expensive behavior.
  • (29) He's really characterizing Brad's point in too stark a way, I doubt he meant it that narrowly. This is a common technique of his, to mischaracterize the opponents position. Of course Brad is open to new information and can take positions, get on with it Adymus!
  • (31) More argument in extremis. Brings an example of an 'arrogant douche'. Unfortunately Adymus comes across as same.
  • (32) Momentum powers - steering, changing people. Sure, obviously Adymus, yes INTP's Zai'nyy can also be influencers. I bossed a gang of 300 engineers once. The point is that we're not as good at that as others, and it costs us.
  • (33) Parameters ... I'd call it boundary conditions ... Yes of course INTP's need deadlines and can get things done. Ti is a judging function after all. 'Z timeline' - here he must be talking about 'J'.
  • (34) "We are all androids" (adymus - "shut the fuck up"). Yes, yes yes Adymus. Obviously Brand and other INTP's don't think of themselves as androids. It's tongue in cheek! You can't 'blame' this joke on MBTI.
  • (35-36) Values based powers. Yes, INTP's are people too - obviously. We have Fe in the inferior and it is our attractor point. His point about NFGeeks shouldn't be that MBTI is bad, but that they are abusing MBTI and taking a simplistic approach.
  • (36) R2D2/C3PO ... whatever. Anthony Daniels is an INTP? Sure ...
  • (37-38) Duals, ISFP/INTP. Yeah I've never heard of this either, Socionics apparently which I'm not into.
  • (38) Peak pathway again. 'Drinking in abstractions', is minor momentum, but not a source power, not a momentum, but we can get really tired of it. What? Did he say an INTP/Zaii'nyy can get tired of drinking in abstractions? Don't include me in that brother!
  • (39) I notice he looks to the left or right a long - almost purposefully. Must be the PL training that when he conceptualizes, for example, he purposefully looks to the right.
  • (40) Talking about Reading - I don't get the connection.
  • (41) Zai needing sources for information gathering, OK Ti needs info sources.
  • (41:30) "Insensitive like a good NT". I think Mike was making a joke Adymus. It's NFGeeks, of course they're going to stereotype.
  • (43) "Code of conduct, part of being heroic we need to dismantle other people." Ah, I thought so. PL is intertwined with The Hero's Journey ideas, it also specifies behaviors you should manifest as part of walking the heroic path. This explains why PL people are so abrasive, and why they are going to so much effort. This is common sense (he uses a racism example)
  • (45) Yes Adymus, being an INTP doesn't mean we're androids! Obviously we're humans that need to fight racism and other bad behaviors. How has PL cornered the market on The Golden Rule?
  • (48) Zai'nyy (pronounced Zaii-nee). He couldn't have made a better description of Ti (precision thinking) - Ne (abstraction). What's fascinating is that nyy is pronounced Nee - which is .. Ne. Here we can see the material that PL builds upon.
  • (48) Our society doesn't appreciate truth? Really? What are they doing in the courts then? And what is 'assholish-truth'?
  • (50) More code of conduct - Golden Rule.
  • (52) Meme's ... nothing special here. Sounds like a High School civics discussion.
  • (53) "NT's are not good with feelings" - Adymus calls bullshit. I'd agree that it was poorly worded. Yes, cerebral people can be passionate! But I'll tell you that my INFJ wife is far more, and more often emotional than I am.
  • (54) "Words are an imperfect transmission mechanism". Yes I heard this from a corporate class I took on Effective Communication years ago. Bleh ...
  • (54) "The qualia of reality. It goes beyond words, it's non verbal and visual information. Yes, agree. Somnia - connecting it with the Qualia of reality, in that way you'll be in greater touch with reality." Ah, I thought they were driving in this direction. By purposefully acting in certain ways (looking to the right, spider hands), we can more effectively use our powers. Another way of saying we can develop a persona.
  • (58) "Connecting with the unconscious half of your heroic story line". OK, they do want you to tap into the shadow functions.
  • (58)Where to go from here ...
  • (58) Mojo crash courses
  • (58)Cerebral temples
  • (59)Empire of Alignment - Dismantling of MBTI
  • (1:00) Mojo reading
  • (1:00) Peak pathways


So what I see so far is a system which builds on all that went before, MBTI, The Golden Rule, Buddhism, The Hero's Journey, and adds a physiological dimension. The argument against MBTI is a weak one, it is by painting MBTI in it's most simplistic terms. Indeed PL is very much founded on MBTI, from what I see here, it's an extension of it. I'm very surprised then that they so vehemently want to dismantle MBTI. All good theories build on the previous theories, and thereby acknowledge them. It gives the new ideas credibility. General Relativity reduces to Newtonian relativity. I'm not saying PL is that extension of MBTI, but I think they are taking an immature approach which is causing the difficult in acceptance they are seeing.

In classical psychology (Louise Von Franz) they would be characterized as having the Peur/Puella complex. Common among young people, who like to be revolutionaries. With maturity perhaps PL can recognize what they are building on, and then truly 'contribute back to the tribe'.

The arguments against NFGeeks are a little weak, I think NFGeeks is well, being geeky. Their characterizations are simplistic, but it is an amateur YouTube channel after all. I completely disagree that it is the fault of MBTI.

From here I'll go onto the Cerebral temples.
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Today 3:31 AM
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,691
---
Thinking further on PL messaging and marketing. What they have done is create a new system and language without showing the correspondence to what went before. So to understand PL, you have to watch enough videos until you can create that linkage yourself. This is inefficient, and why most people will give up before getting anywhere.

At any rate, @Lyra, can you point me towards the Cerebral Temples video? No amount of YouTube searching will bring that up.

Edit: Ah, I see, it's a channel not a video

Cerebrals Temple

Oh my there's a lot of videos there. Where can I go next? I'm looking for a, say, 1 hour video that is geared towards Zai'nyy.
 

ginoskein

Member
Local time
Today 5:31 AM
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
34
---
All good theories build on the previous theories, and thereby acknowledge them. It gives the new ideas credibility. General Relativity reduces to Newtonian relativity. I'm not saying PL is that extension of MBTI, but I think they are taking an immature approach which is causing the difficult in acceptance they are seeing.

That is an inessential criterion for a good theory. In fact, most criteria invented by the Popperian movement to express the "scientific process" in logical terms inhibit progress in knowledge and understanding by giving people conceptual tools for judging perfectly useful theories as non-scientific.

That being said, all theories (some more than others for other reasons) have a tendency to collect people around them who then form a peculiar cult psychology among themselves which seeks constant self-validation experiences according to a consciously and unconsciously decided upon criterion of irrefutability. The criterion of irrefutability is applied always to the core hypotheses of the theory/research culture. Newtonians did this. Einsteinians do this.

Newtonian mechanics was woefully incommensurable with REAL phenomena. Observers told the Newtonians about an anomaly, and they recalibrated their core hypotheses to fit it. Present "understanding" (nothing but a vast recalibration of Newtonian theory) of the force we call gravity/inertia is so poor that JPL had to build a special piece of guidance software to correct for all of the "extra effects" nobody expected before we started throwing space probes beyond the Earth.

Adding hypotheticals to our general viewpoints to defend them against what Quine called "recalcitrant experience" is a natural process in which every theory-adherent engages (the one exception that comes to mind is Michael Faraday who does not seem ever to have allowed himself to adhere to any single theory for guidance in his experimental research, but he was ). This feature of human psychology, manifesting in all areas of its activity, seems reducible to the constellation term "confirmation bias." It is not to say it is a good thing a or a bad thing (it can be either given the situation). Humans just behave this way in general. We want to find confirmation for the things we believe in or the things we prefer to believe in and disconfirmation for the contrary.

This has nothing whatever to do with "logical reasoning," which I think is a rather narrow band of human cognitive ability. The use of "logic" is in fact most agreeable with personal biases. But one can use logic to buttress any statement whatever, even in the face of recalcitrant experience. This is why people are so limited. They limit themselves with models of reality to which they lend "logical irrefutability." Usually these models express human limitations in terms that imply solutions involving "assertive control mechanisms," rather than authentic humility (which I think Faraday exhibited, and why I think he learned so much about nature's life).
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
^ There is a lot of truth to that, but, as explicated in Lakatos' framework, it's not inherently opposed to the scientific endeavor or to recognising a theory's yield. P'L's yield becomes apparent via Reading, not assignation of explanatory principles before that activity has been engaged in.

In so far as we can have useful and predictive theories, regardless of whether or not it is subject to the same basic human tendencies in such a context, it really is up there. But only if the new instrument it introduces for the first time (in a Scientific format) is used. That instrument is training in Reading.
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
Thinking further on PL messaging and marketing. What they have done is create a new system and language without showing the correspondence to what went before. So to understand PL, you have to watch enough videos until you can create that linkage yourself. This is inefficient, and why most people will give up before getting anywhere.

At any rate, @Lyra, can you point me towards the Cerebral Temples video? No amount of YouTube searching will bring that up.

Edit: Ah, I see, it's a channel not a video

Cerebrals Temple

Oh my there's a lot of videos there. Where can I go next? I'm looking for a, say, 1 hour video that is geared towards Zai'nyy.

Cerebrals temple only has 1 shortish upload, actually. You're looking at the feed from other channels to that channel's page, not its uploads.

Go to Mojo Reading Revealed and there's a Crash Course on Zai'nyy. It's not very in-depth in its cues but it gives samples. For in-depth cues you need the specific videos for Gears 1-5 (these I recommend you watch above/before all else) and the Xyy vs. Zyy etc. videos from Coach. This isn't actually that much content, and it's enough for you to get a lot about/practice a lot of Reading. It's really not worth paying attention to the other theory videos until you do this.

Right now you're seeing Pod'Lair as syncretic. As a synthesis in the common sense. This is a misunderstanding. Every part of the theory unfolds out from Reading and from the SS Index which can only be really understood via direct Reading.

Right now, because you're overlooking that, you're missing that:

-Pod'Lair's approach to the Powers is exact, real time and millisecond by millisecond. Unlike any other approach its words only signal something which can very quickly be observed, individually conceived of and extrapolated from by any user of its instrument.
-This approach revealed such things as modulation (previously absent from any theory-- see Quenck's In The Grip for where things were at in this regard) direct observation of the interface of powers and riffs, direct observation of the interface of powers and memes, the mirroring and explicit explication of the process and possibilities of Reading through the 5 gear system, the epistemological model (the SS Index) which syncs with/is explained by engagement with the 5 gear system, inspiration alchemies, social alchemies, a way that actually works to get people unmodulated and to be able to directly and minus-theoretical-approximation understand their own power usage in real time...
-The conception of Spirit Forms (not what you think it is) and how it encompasses Powers and other phenomenon in a far deeper epistemological context and massively empowers a person to follow their own unmined intelligence. (Btw, ideas about heroism also unfold from the way Spirit Forms, and the powers in particular, work. What they seek to do of their own accord, which is very different than what the currently prevalent evopsych etc. simplifications of how humans work, or any currently prevalent theory in the Philosophy of Cognitive Science, present).
-Habitual usage (MBTIers still ref. this, or only sense something beyond it in the crudest sense) not being a sign of actual preference.. with a way to see what is and how that habitual preference is interfacing with it in terms of momentum/modulation/genius/idiocy.
-The list goes on, but above all it does all of this, places all of this on a solid foundation by an actual empirical method where anybody can go and see what we're talking about in the most incredibly and infinitely explanatory detail, for themselves. No theory ever did this before. It was always memes and approximations with no effective method by which any individual could just go and look and understand for themselves. The results were terrible, people mostly didn't help themselves very much, the reading statistics of all supposed/published experts in that field are terrible, even after decades of training. All in all there was just a mass of confusion and no actual empirical discovery of the phenomenon in question. Thus no clear and explicit foundation for a realisation of implications.
-MBTI just fucks people up and doesn't work. It fails in terms of yield. This really doesn't. MBTI was not scientific, this is. This has produced thousands of accurate samples, a feat totally unprecedented. They all justify and are explained by the falsifiable theory with a consistency/coherency/precision which just doesn't stop the further you go. It, again, provides an empirical basis that takes everything beyond the realm of useless conjecture. That is, it takes the phenomenon fringe/unfalsifiable/not-a-proper-theory Jungian/MBTI very failingly attempt to capture and proves it.

Get that?

Proves it.

If you don't get the implications of that...*

Well, they're huge. And complaining about not having a quick way to skip the Reading process is really ridiculous. In terms of time in > yield out, this and the 5 gears system are the best available for understanding people and strengthening yourself. It's an instrument you need some training in, yes, but the materials required to begin that process for yourself (you can later link in theory if/as it interests you) are actually not that extensive. And, moreover, this is just how reality is, and nobody captured it before now. We've done more than enough on our part. We're not trying to change reality to make it easier or different than it is, or to sell better-- we're presenting what is.

Moreover, if you look at almost any of our supposedly 'arrogant' or 'rude' exchanges, almost every case involves the individual at issue refusing to use/put time into this instrument. We provide all the materials for free, give our time to do so, and Coach actually discovered it. We're not being nasty here. We just ask that people criticisng us or seeking to speak authoritatively in relation to us actually verse themselves in the basic tool, the crux, the only relevant way of making sense of our art. We have no respect for those who come and spew random words without doing so and expect some kind of equal hearing or right to be treated as a serious critic.

Accusations of Syncretism are mostly people's attempt to get a handle on this and fit it into multiple different categories of familiarity so they know what it 'is'... prior to Reading enough. There is a lot of apparent complexity in our terms and metaphorical system, but for practicing Readers these are an invaluable framework for getting to grips with the phenomenon at different gears. To dumb it down/simplify it into a format that made for a nice, clean textual presentation would be to pander to those who don't actually use the instrument, or seek to understand a thing on its own terms before passing judgement upon it (at the expense of Readers). The best textual presentation to be offered is... Read.

That said, if you'd like more info on any of the above, or clarifications, I'd be happy to either provide a brief synopsis here or to point you to the relevant resources. I do recognise that we need to streamline our initial presentation to get across what's important and how this should all be engaged with, and we are working on that. It's a very big theory and we were mostly concerned with getting it out there at first. People assumed we were a 'cult' or whatever (as that term's used by vulgar people who don't appreciate Greece's beauty and who blindly recapitulate Christian propaganda) or had a primary marketing agenda, and so seemed to think we were all doing it wrong. Actually we just weren't thinking about that kind of irrelevancy. Were more concerned with how important this all was, and reacted as people would in such a situation if assailed by hordes of irrelevancy, insults, and accusations. We''re calibrating.


---

*To clarify: none of our Nai'xyy samples show Zyy articulation. Nobody shows the facial struture/movements/modulation for being both adaptive and directive. Nobody is momentum yang and momentum yin gesturing. The eye cues for a power always mesh with the corresponding gesturing, 'leaning', and facial cues and patterns we posit. There is an incredibly precise and coherent set of features which always cohere in the way in which the theory states they do, and the claims made about how they cohere are falsifiable. Can be challenged. Either are or are not out in the empirical world, with a relevant means of observation/judgement upon which is the case. A mostly latent and initially confusing faculty in most people, yes, but a means nonetheless.
 

Puffy

"Wtf even was that"
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Nov 7, 2009
Messages
3,859
---
Location
Path with heart
Yeah, but we're not going for them. What y'all don't realise is that we're just stopping by in typology town. It's not our target audience and it never was. Leave the strategy to us (we're good at it, really... you have no idea) and how about we do what INTPf should be about-- the truth of the matter. No more social conformist how-should-it-be-done bullshit. Just whether what we're saying is true, and what it is we're actually saying. Reasoned exploration and analysis and curiosity, old-time Greek style. With a little modern freedom of speech thrown in for good measure.*

I think for the amount of times it comes up it's really something that should at least enter discussion on PL's side. It really says a lot that they can't listen to the feedback of others, and in many respects it summarises the portrait of PL in my mind.

If you wanted to make comparisons with the theory of evolution, science may be about what is verifiable, but there's no doubt the scientific community also holds certain values and beliefs that shape the delivery of the findings to an extent. Evolution's a perfect example in how frequently it's wielded as an emblem of materialistic thinking, etc, which isn't necessary to the idea, it's culturally informed.

You shouldn't need to accept the biases of the scientific community to believe evolution is true.

There's more to PL than just its verifiability, there's a culture around it which you can not help but be absorbed into if you're to delve deeper into its 'truths'. It informs your very hearing of it. This is how PL is designed. To learn more you have to climb the ranks, be more deeply involved in the community. Act as they do, post videos with the same tone they do. My impression, and maybe PL would agree, is that this culture is the ultimate goal of its project anyway.

I think you're asking us to accept more than what is simply demonstrable, and that seems to be the point where many have faltered.
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
And this is, after all, INTPforum, not the Lair of the Pod People. Users are perfectly capable of going to google and finding some other place to talk about it, I'm sure, where there might even be capable of having a better discussion and not pointless exercises in futility. But you're clearly intent on active evangelizing, so hoping that will happen would be foolish.
Lame. The facts are the facts. You're banishing them and thereby fundamentally undermining this forum's integrity. Making it an ossification outpaced by history, instead of a living thing which actually cares about the truth of the matter. Both in terms of its general culture and with regards to its central (or at least highly relevant, because it's how people find their way here) subject matter. There is still a typology sub-forum after all.

Incredibly lame. You should be ashamed of yourself. You'd make a good government official.
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
I think for the amount of times it comes up it's really something that should at least enter discussion on PL's side. It really says a lot that they can't listen to the feedback of others, and in many respects it summarises the portrait of PL in my mind.

If you wanted to make comparisons with the theory of evolution, science may be about what is verifiable, but there's no doubt the scientific community also holds certain values and beliefs that shape the delivery of the findings to an extent. Evolution's a perfect example in how frequently it's wielded as an emblem of materialistic thinking, etc, which isn't necessary to the idea, it's culturally informed.

You shouldn't need to accept the biases of the scientific community to believe evolution is true.

There's more to PL than just its verifiability, there's a culture around it which you can not help but be absorbed into if you're to delve deeper into its 'truths'. It informs your very hearing of it. This is how PL is designed. To learn more you have to climb the ranks, be more deeply involved in the community. Act as they do, post videos with the same tone they do. My impression, and maybe PL would agree, is that this culture is the ultimate goal of its project anyway.

I think you're asking us to accept more than what is simply demonstrable, and that seems to be the point where many have faltered.

Of course we have a culture. And, yes, we are also a movement. I would say that most of that culture unfolds from Reading and a shared assessment of its implications. But culture is a living and complex thing, and I can't pretend otherwise. We're humans and we act as humans do when they really assess something to be true and urgently important in a communal context.

That said we provide all necessary information to understand what we publicise publicly. Nobody has to join up or even like any or all of us as individuals to understand it. Nor to be a valid or worthwhile or informed critic. I understand Pod'Lair can come full on and seem overwhelming and confusing, but this is what it takes to be informed and a relevant voice. And we do accept and invite debate happily from those relevantly informed. We're just so used to dealing with incompetence, assumptions and lack of research from typologists.

So, am I asking you to accept more than just what it takes to be competent? Not really. I'm asking that critics be competent and listen to what we say about what it takes to understand what we're talking about. It's the only way it will work. I judge that smart people who do this research will in many cases come to understand the urgency of what we're saying, and just how game-changing its implications are, and I intend with such people to effect social reforms on a scale and in a way never seen before. But I wouldn't treat somebody questioning that or trying to work out just what the phenomenon they're observing really means as incompetent.
 

Puffy

"Wtf even was that"
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Nov 7, 2009
Messages
3,859
---
Location
Path with heart
I would say that most of that culture unfolds from Reading and a shared assessment of its implications.

I was just typing up more, and a link struck me too about how, what I perceive as, the culture relates to the act of reading.

I think my complaints are unfair to voice at this point, at least in this thread. As I think it may be that I disagree (ethically speaking) with the worldview or mode of seeing that the act of reading implies. Which is counter-productive to the aim of exploring that in this thread.

But yes, you're right, it would be unfair to expect a separation of culture and ideas. I have something else on my mind, clearly. :kilroy:
 

Auburn

Luftschloss Schöpfer
Local time
Today 2:31 AM
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
2,298
---
*To clarify: none of our Nai'xyy samples show Zyy articulation. Nobody shows the facial struture/movements/modulation for being both adaptive and directive. Nobody is momentum yang and momentum yin gesturing. The eye cues for a power always mesh with the corresponding gesturing, 'leaning', and facial cues and patterns we posit. There is an incredibly precise and coherent set of features which always cohere in the way in which the theory states they do, and the claims made about how they cohere are falsifiable. Can be challenged. Either are or are not out in the empirical world, with a relevant means of observation/judgement upon which is the case. A mostly latent and initially confusing faculty in most people, yes, but a means nonetheless.
Lyra ||
Show me. Literally. Don't describe it for me in words. I can take your words and interpret them millions of ways. Point at exactly what you mean. Show me Xyy articulation, and Zyy. Give me a video, and give me a timeframe :: and say what is there.

You say "reading" is the instrument. In reality it is not. The instrument is seeing (sight) which is a pre-existing and old instrument. But with seeing, showing is necessary.

There is no way we can even begin to show you a person that displays both Xyy and Zyy articulation, if you haven't even *literally* shown us what Xyy and Zyy articulation look like. You have not.

Your model will only begin to be falsifiable when there is concrete and tactile data for your definitions. No, handing us a whole video.. saying the cue is swimming somewhere in that whole video.. isn't enough. A lot of things happen in a video. Be precise. If it is as self-evident and precise as you say it is, this shouldn't be an issue.

Until you or podlair concretely pins down their observations in a form that can be seen by all eyes, like a specimen on a lab table, it remains to be seen whether your analysis is right.

~~

I understand the world is a complex place. I know things are overlayered. I know that even if these phenomenon did exist they would be burried beneath distortions. I am not making an appeal to reductionism as I am to clarity. As of now you lack clarity.

A human cell is equally overlayed with many parts, and they operate in such concert that picking out just one -- like RNA -- is difficult. And a rigorous lab procedure is performed in order to isolate that bit and see it clearly. See the sequence. This is what makes science ...which is simply the art of clear observation... science, and such a solid, albeit tedious, endeavor to truth.

Solid ground is rare, but well cultivated with painstaking effort, like gems. It cannot be bypassed, and everything else podlair does before it does this, will be futile because none will believe it based on faith. Show.

If I was a pioneer.. and told someone that.. inside every human cell there was this thing that did this-and-the-other, and that it is made of folded proteins and reacts this-way-and-the-other to different things... This would not be empirical evidence, nor have I prooved my point. All I've done is explain my perspective/understanding. My words themselves wouldn't be the evidence.

Likwise... Podlair is doing just that. It takes people's videos, and has the audacity to call the shpeelz they give 'the' evidence. They say "i'm about to prove to [person] that they are [mojo]" and then all they go on to do is talk. This is ludicrous.


 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Today 3:31 AM
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,691
---
Go to Mojo Reading Revealed and there's a Crash Course on Zai'nyy.

Providing links would be helpful, also keeping the posts short. For longer points maybe break them out into a separate post.

So I guess you mean ...

Zai'nyy


  • (0-1:00) Again the first four mojos, however these correspond precisely to the INTP functional stack (Zai-nyy-Vai-Xyy ) (Zai-Nee-Vii-Zee) (Ti-Ne-Si-Fe).
  • (1:00) Zai'nyy (Zai-nee) is Ti-Ne. They sound so similar you can see the verbal correspondence. Anyhow these are 'momentum powers' - which are exactly Ti-Ne, our dominant functions, all fulfilling equivalent roles.
  • And so on ... review for me

OK, onward ...

For in-depth cues you need the specific videos for Gears 1-5 (these I recommend you watch above/before all else) and the Xyy vs. Zyy etc. videos from Coach. This isn't actually that much content, and it's enough for you to get a lot about/practice a lot of Reading. It's really not worth paying attention to the other theory videos until you do this.

OK, that's a tall order. I'll mull this over and get back on it.

-MBTI just fucks people up and doesn't work. It fails in terms of yield.

I completely disagree. MBTI has been life changing for me and many others I've personally known. The mistake you are making is seeing people take baby steps in MBTI and saying that has ruined them. It hasn't, Please Understand Me/4 letter approach is way too simplistic, but you know it's simple enough that everybody can grasp it, and enough for most people. Some want to go further and learn in depth of the functions, well that's not for everybody.

This really doesn't. MBTI was not scientific, this is.

'Scientific' is a loose term. Getting specific, MBTI hasn't had a lot of empirical peer reviewed studies which is the complaint from main stream psychology. However, I'm pretty sure PL has had none. Regardless its not overly important to me that PL is 'scientific' or not.

Get that?

As I've said it appears the added dimension PL brings is including the physiological.

And complaining about not having a quick way to skip the Reading process is really ridiculous. In terms of time in > yield out, this

The problem is not that I want to skip them, but just getting to that point at all. The videos use only PL vocabulary, stating things like "logic based discerner". OK, what do you mean by "logic based discerner"? Without a dictionary I have no idea what you're talking about.

Moreover, if you look at almost any of our supposedly 'arrogant' or 'rude' exchanges, almost every case involves the individual at issue refusing to use/put time into this instrument. We provide all the materials for free, give our time to do so ...

Well, putting your materials out saying "See? It's all there? You're an idiot if you don't bother reading up on" doesn't go far. You need to understand that people need a lot more help than that. Here's an example

one of our Nai'xyy samples show Zyy articulation. Nobody shows the facial struture/movements/modulation for being both adaptive and directive. Nobody is momentum yang and momentum yin gesturing. The eye cues for a power always mesh with the corresponding gesturing,

What does this mean? What do you mean by 'adaptive'? 'Directive'? I can supply my own definitions but I have no idea what yours are. You need to do more than throw out these PL-speak paragraphs, it's white noise to me until I can understand precisely what you mean by these terms.

That said, if you'd like more info on any of the above, or clarifications, I'd be happy to either provide a brief synopsis here or to point you to the relevant resources. I do recognise that we need to streamline our initial presentation to get across what's important and how this should all be engaged with,

Now you're getting it. I'm spending more time trying to find a video that can help me understand, rather than getting video time. How about a few syllabi, beginner (an hour or two), medium, advanced?
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
We've already done that Auburn. You clearly haven't watched our videos. We give lots of examples and timecodes, and we also give examples in the MRR 5 gears series. Go to a timecode we talk about that demonstrates bi-field, and look at the two fields on the person's face. Then look at the same thing playing out throughout the video. This is pretty simple.

Many of the patterns we identify are also not timecode specific. Or are only in terms of movements and patterns over time on the scale to which a single video is appropriate. Again, you have this obsessive focus with a warped version of 1st gear because you actually still, funnily enough, have no idea what you're talking about.*


And-- you're wrong. Reading is the instrument. Seeing alone, untrained, is a different thing and clearly doesn't necessarily result in correct apprehension of a certain scale of phenomenon. This is never going to be identical with seeing in its presentation, because that's not the scale on which the phenomenon works or the instrument by which it is perceived. The relevant instrument is much more dynamic, honed, and precise.

Your model will only begin to be falsifiable when there is concrete and tactile data for your definitions. No, handing us a whole video.. saying the cue is swimming somewhere in that whole video.. isn't enough. A lot of things happen in a video. Be precise. If it is as self-evident and precise as you say it is, this shouldn't be an issue.
It's pretty funny that you're trying to define what's proof. We provide many videos in which the same patterns are utterly consistent throughout, and we provide specific examples of those patterns which can then be Read in those videos. We're not going to go maulling the 5 gear system on the say-so of some amateur who learned Reading from us and then tried to mutate it to fit current memes about how it should be found and findable because he couldn't parse the new epistemological approach for long enough to become competent.

I understand the world is a complex place. I know things are overlayered. I know that even if these phenomenon did exist they would be burried beneath distortions. I am not making an appeal to reductionism as I am to clarity. As of now you lack clarity.
We have presented this with more clarity than anybody else has. Any ideological school, conception of people, or representation of them. Perhaps we're going to roll this out with more clarity as we have time and resources, but your input in particular about when and how we should do this, as somebody who's continuously slung irrelevant assertions from the sidelines and acted like we don't get it, isn't important. You learned this from Pod'Lair, everybody who learned it to any extent (more or less garbled) learned it from Pod'Lair, and the people who are most highly trained and competent are in Pod'Lair. We are making it available to others to learn and perceive-- which is evidently possible-- and we will continue to roll-out and give the immense wealth of useful and unparalleled info as and when we do.

Finally, it's not a criterion of falsifiability with regards to a claim made by means of microscopic instruments to make that term falsifiable by any other means than using a microscope. You're incompetent at using microscopes, by this analogy. You don't know how to use the zoom function. And everything you say is just an attempt to parse that or to conceptualise your sheerly psychological reasons for not learning. Even if we get more precise at explicating what can be seen through the microscope, or naming the entities seen at any particular zoom, you'll still probably be incompetent to actually perceive most of them. Cause you can't zoom. You don't have the prerequisite.

We will, I suspect, invent other instruments capable of parsing this in different ways as time goes on. What we provide now is enough for this to be proven to an adequately intelligent and perceptive person. A bit like certain physical theorems require intelligence of a certain kind, so does this. You and people like you will see the tech and results that come out of it, but I doubt you'll ever be at the apex of actual theoretical/perceptive understanding of where that tech came from, or how it did.

Also, IMO, the say-so of how it's useful to approach this kind of phenomenon coming from somebody who actually discovered it is worth more than a little weight. It is an immense feat, and you know that. You know how much the little you've been able to take in of this changed you, and you know you couldn't have done the same. I'm telling you that's a result of epistemological criteria and approach, and your inability to parse different epistemological criterias and approach as useful Lakatosian research programmes (that is, Scientific research programmes) is the primary factor in your incompetence and difficulties. You should really be giving more weight to that kind of advice, given the yield you've seen. You should really be studying just how it was, in fact, that an individual was able to come up with this. And just why you have such a problem with that. It's your blind spot and your own personal rabbit hole, and I know you're terrified to take the tumble (for a new reason every time you peek!) but by god it's tiring watching your whine about it.


---

*Have you watched the Yin/Yang series? Coach's videos on specific cues? The demonstrations on MRR? The in-depth analysis of individuals? Noticed the numerous timecode attributions of specific cues or momentum/modulation?
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
@Architect. So the problem you basically have is one of time. All of your questions are answered throughout the material, but I recognise the need for a quick working/introductory glossary and crash-course in how to approach the info for people who just want to figure out/look into what Reading is and how it can be done.

Like I said, I'll get that done for you as soon as I can.

W.r.t MBTI's yield, it can be used beneficially by smart people to an extent, like many things can. But Pod'Lair works a lot faster and does a lot more and goes so much further for pretty much anybody able to get themselves to Read and explore. It can be a bit risky actually-- as in cases like Auburn's, where botched learning processes and an inability to get over just how much has been glimpsed lead to an inappropriate feeling of authority or mastery.

There's also two different types of yield at issue here: personal growth and empirical results. The first we'll probably need time and more examples that only time can provide to talk on-- the second there's no argument about.
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Today 3:31 AM
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,691
---
So the problem you basically have is one of time. All of your questions are answered throughout the material, but I recognise the need for a quick working/introductory glossary and crash-course in how to approach the info for people who just want to figure out/look into what Reading is and how it can be done.

Yes that's one of the problems. I see a big table with a lot of books on it written in a foreign language. Hard to break into that.

Like I said, I'll get that done for you as soon as I can.

Thanks

W.r.t MBTI's yield, it can be used beneficially by smart people to an extent, like many things can. But Pod'Lair works a lot faster and does a lot more and goes so much further for pretty much anybody able to get themselves to Read and explore. There's also two different types of yield at issue here: personal growth and empirical results. The first we'll probably need time and more examples that only time can provide to talk on-- the second there's no argument about.

Here's an example, I don't know what you mean by yield here.
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
I meant predictive yield, in reference to Lakatosian Philosophy of Science. I thought it would be clear what I was referring to given my earlier posts, but this was probably unclear writing on my part.
 

redbaron

irony based lifeform
Local time
Today 9:31 PM
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
7,253
---
Location
69S 69E
@Lyra should get out more.
 

InvisibleJim

Banned
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
199
---
Location
Everywhere
@Lyra I watched one of your Nai'zyy videos (the type which I most closely associate with) whether it is or not, it was reasonably insightful except the usual Pod'Lair blurb. It appears like Pod'Lair have developed a facial motion VI system. There are no particular issues with that, that's fine; it's a model.

I would describe the Pod'Lair theory as similar to Model A - Socionics, with a stint into Socionics VI; here is a very useful and concise table which I enjoy using to describe how Model A is constructed and how the 8 cognitive functions interact in the psyche.

You should consider the value of constructing a similar table for Pod'Lair

modela.png
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
Hi @InivisbleJim,

I can't see the table.

It's actually very different from VI. The resemblance really is only... superficial. But if that's a useful reference point for you whilst you look into it... I guess whatever works.
 

InvisibleJim

Banned
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
199
---
Location
Everywhere
Hi @InivisbleJim,

I can't see the table.

It's actually very different from VI. The resemblance really is only... superficial. But if that's a useful reference point for you whilst you look into it... I guess whatever works.

Yes fair comment: socionics VI is based on physical appearance, I'm not a great fan of it. I uploaded the image again on a different service, you may however have to reload the page to see the image.

I'm curious in so far as Adymus described the information exchange of the 'subconscious' functions in a different mode to that of Model A.
 

Lyra

Genesis Engineering Speciation
Local time
Today 10:31 AM
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
992
---
Btw we're actually preparing a lot of real-time in-depth readings right now. Copyright issues etc. but we're working on it.
 

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
Local time
Today 5:31 AM
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
3,783
---
That is an inessential criterion for a good theory. In fact, most criteria invented by the Popperian movement to express the "scientific process" in logical terms inhibit progress in knowledge and understanding by giving people conceptual tools for judging perfectly useful theories as non-scientific.

That being said, all theories (some more than others for other reasons) have a tendency to collect people around them who then form a peculiar cult psychology among themselves which seeks constant self-validation experiences according to a consciously and unconsciously decided upon criterion of irrefutability. The criterion of irrefutability is applied always to the core hypotheses of the theory/research culture. Newtonians did this. Einsteinians do this.

Newtonian mechanics was woefully incommensurable with REAL phenomena. Observers told the Newtonians about an anomaly, and they recalibrated their core hypotheses to fit it. Present "understanding" (nothing but a vast recalibration of Newtonian theory) of the force we call gravity/inertia is so poor that JPL had to build a special piece of guidance software to correct for all of the "extra effects" nobody expected before we started throwing space probes beyond the Earth.

Adding hypotheticals to our general viewpoints to defend them against what Quine called "recalcitrant experience" is a natural process in which every theory-adherent engages (the one exception that comes to mind is Michael Faraday who does not seem ever to have allowed himself to adhere to any single theory for guidance in his experimental research, but he was ). This feature of human psychology, manifesting in all areas of its activity, seems reducible to the constellation term "confirmation bias." It is not to say it is a good thing a or a bad thing (it can be either given the situation). Humans just behave this way in general. We want to find confirmation for the things we believe in or the things we prefer to believe in and disconfirmation for the contrary.

This has nothing whatever to do with "logical reasoning," which I think is a rather narrow band of human cognitive ability. The use of "logic" is in fact most agreeable with personal biases. But one can use logic to buttress any statement whatever, even in the face of recalcitrant experience. This is why people are so limited. They limit themselves with models of reality to which they lend "logical irrefutability." Usually these models express human limitations in terms that imply solutions involving "assertive control mechanisms," rather than authentic humility (which I think Faraday exhibited, and why I think he learned so much about nature's life).

Now, just to be clear, you're talking about a human problem, right? For, ignoring Man's foibles, the scientific method never mentions creating absolutes. Each conclusion drawn from experimentation is at the very least initially based upon certain assumptions, be it the quantum nature of energy (nuclear chemistry) or the smoothness of temperature gradients (early gas laws). These are never taken as holy truth; instead, they must remain just what they are, assumptions, axioms, things to be presumed to understand the conclusion, much like the existence of Troy in The Illiad. Hence, though the experience of discovery and the intimate knowledge of a field can evoke nigh-spiritual to outright religious feelings, we, the sentient beings of this cosmos, should never view the conclusions of science as absolute. Instead, let us understand that that tiny, infinitesimal sliver of uncertainty represents the ultimate lack of knowledge that we have about the world, the certainty that nothing for sure.

-Duxwing
 

Oblivious

Is Kredit to Team!!
Local time
Today 6:31 PM
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
1,266
---
Location
Purgatory with the cool kids
To add on to what Sir Duxwing has said: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
In the philosophy of science, falsifiability or refutability is a quality or characteristic of a scientific hypothesis or theory. Falsifiability is considered a positive (and often essential) quality of a hypothesis because it means that the hypothesis is testable by empirical experiment and thus conforms to the standards of scientific method. That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false, rather it means that if it is false, then observation or experiment will at some point demonstrate its falsehood.
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Today 3:31 AM
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,691
---
Basics, just in case you missed it:

This was pretty good. I sort of dozed towards the end though, and it turned into some weird kind of half dream because of the pseudo-hypnotic visuals and voiceover, brrr. Regardless this video is quite good, and Adymus make valid points about the difficulty with typing people. Does PodLair really go beyond that? We will see ...

I then tried the first Gears Video. Good to see Tom act more like a normal person here instead of The Coach/Guru/Teacher etc. Gave up after 20 minutes though. I'm rather stuck at this time, there's too much vocabulary that isn't being explained, concepts that are glossed over, it's jumping from idea to idea which is taking way too much time for me to try and dig out what they mean. I've got at least three other lives, I'm not willing or able to devote myself entirely to PodLairia.

So I'm stuck presently, I'm going off to work on some other things, have a nice Christmas, and I'll get back at it sometime in the next few days. Any suggestions on a 'getting started guide', or a dictionary, would be welcome.
 

crippli

disturbed
Local time
Today 11:31 AM
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
1,779
---
Thanks you Architect. I am looking forward to what will be the result. Friend or Foe. Very impressing work so far.

For missing pieces, and in a more easy to access format there is also a whole lot in the archives. Search for Adymus.

In this thread he speaks in MBTI terms, but it's what I have found, to be the prelude to PL as we know it now.
http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=4944

Here he explains how he interpret smiling
http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=5950

I don't know if this material is modified after he got fully immersed in PL. But it's easily read. I at least found it useful at the time to disprove or approve of their activity(cult aspect ignored). There are many more singular posts where he goes into the detail of they reading and the PL vocabulary. It's scattered around. It you think it could be relevant I can try to dig them up and provide links.
 
Top Bottom