Pin the T/F on the INXJ!

[Kudryavka]

So just for kicks, a while back after getting into MBTI a bit, I had my boyfriend take a brief personality quiz to see what his result would be. It came back INFJ. Weird, because although he is staggeringly sensitive and kind to me, he doesn't really strike me as a social justice crusader.

Recently after more research into the different types I started scratching my head in confusion. "What, is he really an INFJ? He doesn't seem like one to me..." So I had him take a test again, this time one that gives percentages to show you how significantly you favor one function over the other. The result was quite interesting; he still tested INFJ but the test revealed that only N was significantly favored. He was only 2% F over T, if I remember correctly.

Since then I've been trying to pin him down because I think it will help me understand our relationship better. In general, I find INTJs to be incredibly attractive (might be my favorite of the types), but I don't think I feel the same way about INFJs. Interestingly, I would say he came off as more of an INTJ when we first started dating than he does now, and sure enough, my (romantic) interest in him has dwindled since then.

I have a pet theory about the reason for this. When we were first getting to know each other, he was surrounded by male friends, most of whom had leanings towards non-F interests. Nowadays he mostly only sees me, a blatant INFP. His behavior around me is naturally different than around other people, since I'm far closer to him than anyone else (even any male friends). So I thought I'd seek the opinions of an unbiased audience here!

Traits of his that seem to lean T (hot hot hot ):
- A quiet confidence in his own intellect and knowledge. Usually not displayed as obvious arrogance; if anything it usually manifests in a comedic fashion. He comes home every day from class or from the grocery store with a story about a new level of human stupidity he had to suffer that day, and tells it in the most hilarious and animated way. I'm starting to think he secretly enjoys it when people do irrational and stupid things because he gets to freak out about it.

- He plays many console and PC games of many different genres, but seems partial to puzzle games recently. I know that he is an RTS fan (as am I). I don't play many games, but I have an interesting observation based on a game that both of us did play. I used to enjoy casually playing the Sims primarily for the amusement of their social interactions (and because it was fun to torture them). I let him play it here and he got addicted to it for a few days, trying to manage the sim household efficiently in order to get promotions in order to make more money. (He says "winning" is when you are able to buy the most expensive items. I say there's no such thing as "winning" in the Sims; the complex web of sim relationships is rewarding in and of itself.)

- He surfs the internet and collects a bunch of interesting facts daily, usually pertaining to some observed idiocy (either in personal life, the gaming world, or politics), a new scientific discovery, or history. He then takes notes to help himself remember said facts and stubbornly tries to infodump me with all of them in the first few minutes that he sees me (usually when I've just got home from work and want some time to myself for a bit). My reaction of disinterest or even obvious frustration ("Are you done yet?!") has led to hurt feelings on his part, thinking that I wasn't interested in anything he had to tell me. In reality, most of his facts are quite interesting, but no matter how many times I tell him, I don't think he understands that I live in my own little mental world and that his constant injections of trivia are disrupting my precious thought patterns. When we talk about this stuff over dinner or something, we connect wonderfully. But he's like a child when he learns something interesting; he seems to not be able to wait to share it with me at the appropriate time and then seems to get a little sulky when I don't want to hear.

- He seems to make extra effort not to do this with me, but I'm always shocked when I hear him communicate with his mother or other people he isn't as close to. He doesn't "read between the lines" when they ask him questions; he simply gives short blunt answers rather than elaborating with details that would be important to know. Sometimes I suspect that he is being difficult on purpose, but on the occasions that this happens between us, he seems genuinely baffled when I get upset.

- His most hated subject in school was creative writing. He says he isn't creative in the least, and claims to be incapable of acting. He showed me a home video of a Christmas play in which he participated as a child. When he got up to read his lines he stood dead still and presented them in a hilariously detached, disinterested, and consistent monotone. I believe him.

Traits that seem to lean F:
- He is clingy. Incredibly so. He isn't that jealous or possessive, at least not in an unhealthy way, but he constantly wants to be with me whenever he can, which roughly translates to "every day after I get home from work". Telling him I need some time alone feels like telling a lonely puppy to quit following me. He doesn't try to manipulate my emotions, but I can tell that he is disappointed when I don't want to see him, and it makes me feel bad. XD

- He had a stressful family life with a verbally abusive father prone to random outbursts and a highly irrational (albeit goodnatured) SF mother. He told me that at one point he came to a crossroads between "kill myself" and "fuck everything, I don't care". He never had a friend as close as me before and told me that my kindness helped him "get his emotions back". He used to be quite emotionally-reserved when speaking with strangers; he now seems much more agreeable and polite, smiling and laughing more.

- He seems to dislike angry confrontation and seems to internalize the stress to the point where it has either caused or at least aggravated his health problems. At one point during our relationship he had a massive emotional breakdown which left him bedridden and unable to eat much of anything but crackers. During that time he had this weird thing where he was terribly lonely without me and wanted to see me, but the emotional stimulation of seeing me for any prolonged period of time was too much. He would either get really tired or feel sick and I'd have to leave.

- He strikes me as the most sensitive man I have ever met; I feel like I could hurt him so easily if I wanted to. (I really don't want to!) He's extremely sentimental about material things; he occasionally participates in my INFP rituals of feeling bad for inanimate objects in general, but if I ever show attachment to one of my possessions and then later try to get rid of it, it's a foregone conclusion that I will have problems persuading him to let me do it. "But it's yours! You've always had it!"

Right now I feel like he's either:
1. An emotionally-scarred INTJ who really, really, really loves me, in order to be so supportive and understanding of my NF-ness
2. A childhood INFJ who resorted to behaving like an INTJ as a last resort and is slowly but surely learning to let down that defense and "be himself".

How do you think I could go about ruling out one of these two possibilities? I wouldn't want to treat him like a "broken" INFJ if he was in fact INTJ, and I wouldn't want to idealize him as an INTJ if in reality that was not the case, either. I'm curious to have more insight about this because I think it will help me in my approach to our relationship going forward.

 

[AnnaC]

With only a 2% difference in the F/T may be borderline INTJ. I'd have him look at some characteristics of the two types, and see which he thinks he's most similar to.

In my minimal experience INTJs tend to be somewhat aloof until they find someone they're really fond of, at which point they cling to them because they think they'll never find another quite like them again. Ever. It's very true: Rarely do they find someone that they can get along with well. (Dealing mostly with fictional INTJs here: Think "Sherlock Holmes" in Elementary with his Irene, or "Lord Voldemort" in Harry Potter with Nagini the snake).

Sometimes when INTJs attach themselves, they show a softer nature than what was originally there. At first their T will be evident, then it will dwindle to nothing (at least in your presence). Especially if you're an INFP, he may be learning to think in the same way that you do, and may be modelling himself after you in a way.

If I were you, I'd take up some of his old interests and talk about them a lot more, to encourage him to return to them. And about the clingy-ness... Depending on how long you've been dating him, that's probably here to stay.

Since then I've been trying to pin him down because I think it will help me understand our relationship better. In general, I find INTJs to be incredibly attractive (might be my favorite of the types), but I don't think I feel the same way about INFJs.

I hear you on that one. The Fi types aren't so bad (usually they're very submissive, so they'll eventually stop being sappy), but the Fe ones make me want to run and hide somewhere. In a deep, dark hole. And become a hermit.

 

[Kudryavka]

With only a 2% difference in the F/T may be borderline INTJ. I'd have him look at some characteristics of the two types, and see which he thinks he's most similar to.

I did this, showing him INTJ description first and then INFJ description. He appeared to find more he identified with in the INFJ description, although I think when I consider the circumstances, he was already biased towards considering himself as an INFJ and it may have caused him to overlook the obvious in favor of the possible, if you know what I mean. He seems to display emotional sensitivity that I would associate with an NF, and IIRC that's what he resonated with in the INFJ description. But his interests seem so far removed from the INFJ world... I can only imagine him planting trees or participating in protest marches or feeding hungry orphans if he were following me in doing those things.

In my minimal experience INTJs tend to be somewhat aloof until they find someone they're really fond of, at which point they cling to them because they think they'll never find another quite like them again. Ever. It's very true: Rarely do they find someone that they can get along with well.

YES, this is how it was with us! He was the most aloof person I had ever met, generally cheerful and good-natured but incredibly reserved, this mysterious hermit that hid in his room lurking on the internet all day and never saw the sun. And then we hit it off, and now when I ask him questions like "If I died, you would find another girl to love you and not be lonely, right?" he answers "No, probably not." He's so loyal that it's almost tragic. I feel I'm not worthy of his goodness.

Sometimes when INTJs attach themselves, they show a softer nature than what was originally there. At first their T will be evident, then it will dwindle to nothing (at least in your presence). Especially if you're an INFP, he may be learning to think in the same way that you do, and may be modelling himself after you in a way.

Hey, that's interesting. I wonder if he's a bit like me. I know that I have an INTP friend that I admire, and the result is that I try to think more logically due to his influence. Maybe because my boyfriend admires me, he is doing the same thing...

If I were you, I'd take up some of his old interests and talk about them a lot more, to encourage him to return to them.

That's a good idea. I think I've been expecting him to take charge in those areas - he often suggests things like "I could teach you chess if you want" or "We could play X together". I want to do those things with him, but I'm a bit of a flaky creative nut and in need of him to sit me down and initiate those things. Meanwhile, he's quite passive with his suggestions; he makes them and then leaves the decision of when we will do them up to me. The result is that I default to my own interests and he follows me in them, in order to please me, I think. Now that I think about it, I wonder if he is just a really submissive INTJ who gives me too much leeway to do whatever I please, thinking that it's what I want. For lack of a better expression, maybe he just needs to force himself on me a little more.

 

[Foxman49]

Strangely enough, he sounds like an INTP to me.

Firstly his attachment to material objects is a very Si trait.

He emotional clinginess stems from his Fe inferior. Since you are probably the first emotionally nurturing relationship he has had it is understandable.

Sorry for the laconic answer. If you want a more detailed explanation just ask (a few questions would help me explain as well).

 

[Cherry Cola]

Off the hip: INTJ, feeling function seems introverted. Sounds like there's a limit to how much he cba's to extravert his feelings whereas the thinking part seems to come pouring out.

Does not sound like an INTP, attachment to things is probably somewhat correlated to Si, but e/i differentiation matters less for the bottom two functions in the stack, and all types can be sentimentally attached to physical objects.

 

[Kudryavka]

Does not sound like an INTP, attachment to things is probably somewhat correlated to Si, but e/i differentiation matters less for the bottom two functions in the stack, and all types can be sentimentally attached to physical objects.

Yes, even though he only scored 1% J over P, in day-to-day life I would have a hard time viewing him as INTP. He is quite methodical, likes to stick to things. He has to finish a book before starting a new book whereas I am prone to taking "bites" of every book around me, for example. I sometimes get annoyed at his stubbornness when I want to start watching a new show with him and he insists, "No, we still haven't finished X show, we have to finish that before we watch this." He gives off strong vibes of reliability and trustworthiness, whereas my XNTP friend, by comparison, is quite flaky like me.

I just remembered another quality of his that seems... odd... He's really picky about how his clothing looks and feels. His "look" is black t-shirts with baggy cargo pants, but to say that would be deceptively simple. Shopping trips with him never yield much fruit. They go like this:

Me: Here's a gray shirt with a graphic you might like.
Him: Too bad, the graphic is nice but the shirt isn't dark enough.
Me: What about this black shirt?
Him: It's a V-neck. Those are stupid.
Me: Okay, here's a black T-shirt with a regular neck.
Him: *feels shirt* Meh. I don't like this material.

Me: Here are some cargo pants.
Him: They don't have enough pockets. I won't be able to carry all of my stuff in them. (He's like a packmule, carrying everything in his pockets.)
Me: What about these?
Him: *feels pants* Too thin. They'll fall apart.
Me: Look, these feel strong and have lots of pockets.
Him: Ew. They're khakis. I can't wear khakis!

Shopping for shoes with him is a long ordeal because his shoes have to meet all the criteria. We have driven long distances just to find him a pair of shoes. He could find the perfect pair but refuse them because "They aren't black enough."

He wears all of his clothes until they are full of holes and falling apart. He recently had to get a new belt for this reason, and I found out he is even particular about the kind of belt he can wear. We stood at the belt rack at Walmart and I laughed hysterically as he launched into a scathingly critical rant of all the belts on the rack. (BTW, even though I found his reaction funny, I felt a little bit sorry for the poor belts. They were just innocently hanging on the rack being themselves, hoping to go home with a new friend, and he had to come and say such mean things about them and reject them...) Finally after he drove all over creation to find the perfect belt, he was forced to settle for one that didn't meet his impossibly high standards for belts. LOL

I'm not sure if I should chalk this up to NT eccentricity or NF idealism expressed through fashion sense. I know that I choose my wardrobe based on the ideas I feel it represents, which means I'm quite picky about colors, cuts, and patterns. He seems to favor function over form, but he'll reject a perfectly functional piece simply because it's not the right color, or because "It's something a [insert type of person he doesn't want to be] would wear."

BTW, I'm not too keen on the Se vs. Si difference, but might it be significant that he is extremely particular about fabric textures and how they feel on his skin? He says he can't touch certain fabrics because they make him feel like his throat is closing up. It seems like a psychological thing... it's funny to offer him different textures to feel and see how he shudders. I can't get him to rub my back through my shirt for any long duration of time.

Interestingly, he makes fun of me for my particularity about the texture of my food. One time he was out of crackers for his soup so he tore up some white sandwich bread and put that in. I nearly gagged and had to look away. It was disgusting! So he is very particular about fabrics but willingly eats slimy, soggy bread.

 

[AnnaC]

He seems to display emotional sensitivity that I would associate with an NF, and IIRC that's what he resonated with in the INFJ description. But his interests seem so far removed from the INFJ world... I can only imagine him planting trees or participating in protest marches or feeding hungry orphans if he were following me in doing those things.

Perhaps, if he will, ask him to think about himself with or without you when next considering his type. What's he like when you're away, doing something else? When he's like when with a friend or friends? Maybe he's going solely on what he does/thinks when he is around you.

For instance, I change around people. In my house, in the woods, in any situation where I'm given lots of solitude, I'm fully INTP. When I'm around people, my letters switch. I'm more outgoing and charming, and I like to lead and to help people; if I'm leading or helping, I'm very single-minded and goal-oriented. Those are characteristics very non-typical of an INTP, so I quietly sat for a while until I realized: "Maybe I'm different ways in different situations (isolation/socialization)."

I took one test in the usual way (judging from the large amounts of time I spend by myself), and one test according to the way I feel when I'm around people. As it turns out, in social situations I'm about 2% more EXXJ than I am IXXP. Blending the two results together in the third test in the sequence, I'm within 10% of being an EXXJ (but still an INTP).

And a lot of the times, people with the XNTX can manipulate tests really well to what they think/hope they are like. We're usually pretty good at finding patterns and using them to our advantage. Maybe he's taking it a little more like what he hopes he is like to others?

Hey, that's interesting. I wonder if he's a bit like me. I know that I have an INTP friend that I admire, and the result is that I try to think more logically due to his influence. Maybe because my boyfriend admires me, he is doing the same thing...

My best friend is an INFP. When I was first around him, I found myself subtly altering my Ti and trying to adopt his Fe, in a way that didn't let me even notice it. For the first two or three months after I met him, we believed ourselves to be completely similar. I took the MBTI test, and was identified as an INFJ - I subconsciously guided the test toward the result I went in thinking that I was, having researched the letters before taking the test. After that, I got used to him being around, and my XXTX emerged fully. We're still pretty good friends now, but not so good as we were, as my logical side tends to berate him for being overly sensitive.

Just an example of how the F/T difference can strongly effect close relationships, whether they be friendships or relationships. I think F types are more attracted to T types than T types are to F. Maybe he has "changed" somewhat in that his T has become more of an F since meeting you, again because he's modelling himself on your character. If that's true, then you may need to talk to him, as it would be very, very bad for a relationship to deteriorate because one is trying to be like the other, lol.

I want to do those things with him, but I'm a bit of a flaky creative nut and in need of him to sit me down and initiate those things. Meanwhile, he's quite passive with his suggestions; he makes them and then leaves the decision of when we will do them up to me. The result is that I default to my own interests and he follows me in them, in order to please me, I think. Now that I think about it, I wonder if he is just a really submissive INTJ who gives me too much leeway to do whatever I please, thinking that it's what I want. For lack of a better expression, maybe he just needs to force himself on me a little more.

Now, while I can't so much identify with the "creative nut" part in your "flaky creative nut" description, I can definitely identify with the "flaky". I've learned that sometimes it's best just to bite the bullet, and give in. It's not fun, trust me. It might feel like torture, but especially if he's submissive, then you need to make sure that his personality isn't eroded beneath yours. I was in the same situation with some writer friends of mine... They liked to write fantasy (dragons and the like), and I liked to write science fiction. They were all submissive, so they kept writing science fiction with me. Eventually, they just succumbed, and every time I'd ask them what they wanted to write, they'd say: "Oh, whatever you want to write." One day I wrote fantasy with them, and we were on even ground again. It was so bad for me, though, that I just started writing alone.

He is quite methodical, likes to stick to things. He has to finish a book before starting a new book whereas I am prone to taking "bites" of every book around me, for example.

He's really picky about how his clothing looks and feels. His "look" is black t-shirts with baggy cargo pants, but to say that would be deceptively simple.

Shopping for shoes with him is a long ordeal because his shoes have to meet all the criteria.

Some INTJs have a thing for perfectionism (depending on their Enneagram type); they like to be perfect in mind and body. They usually work out diligently, buy clothes meticulously, and don't like to laze around much. They have immense energy when it comes to going after that perfection: Shopping for the perfect clothes isn't beyond them. And they have loads and loads of patience when it comes to these things.

I envy them that, haha. But that still doesn't mean that I like to go shopping with them.

He wears all of his clothes until they are full of holes and falling apart.

Extreme loyalty to favorite inanimate objects? My dad and grandpa are both ISTJs. My grandfather wore the same flannel shirt as long as I could remember, until it was threadbare and sun-bleached, and then it became the top of a scarecrow. My dad had a pair of hunting pants that he wore until the elastic began to rot out and they began to literally fall apart. He even wore them after he tore a whole in the front while crawling through a barbed wire fence, with basketball shorts beneath them. The same thing happened to those same shorts, several years after the pants expired. Maybe it's an XXXJ thing; I sure don't understand it.

However, they are extremely picky about what they wear in the first place. If I buy them a shirt, I have to make sure it's a nice fabric like flannel or cotton, with no pinks, peaches, or purples. It can't be a v-neck (has to be a "normal" neck), unless it's a button-up. The logo has to represent something manly (no band t-shirts; bulldozer and sawmill companies, generally). Then they stick to it.

It's striking how that parallels to the romantic choices of XXXJs in general. They have a very picky, extreme list of qualities that the girl must have, then they stick to her loyally until circumstances (usually death or huge personality changes) change. My dad and grandpa both have had very successful relationships. I know of no one my grandpa dated before he married my grandma - very picky. My dad only dated one that I know of, and then it was only a fling. They married right out of high school, and have stayed married for twenty and forty years. One thing's for sure about XXXJs: Their loyalty is just crazy impressive.

BTW, I'm not too keen on the Se vs. Si difference, but might it be significant that he is extremely particular about fabric textures and how they feel on his skin?

I'm like that, and I'm definitely not Se. I can't sense anything outside my brain really well, but all the same, I like my clothes to fit nicely. I've never been able to stand wearing pure silk, because it just feels... Scratchy. It kind of pulls me out of my thinking, and distracts me. Maybe that's what he's experiencing?

Interestingly, he makes fun of me for my particularity about the texture of my food. One time he was out of crackers for his soup so he tore up some white sandwich bread and put that in.

Again, my dad and grandpa (who are XXXJs) are exactly like this. My grandfather eats disgusting things like peanut butter and onion sandwiches, when more normal things aren't around to pair with the peanut butter. My dad has this awful brownie recipe he makes every so often, when nothing sweet is around. I think that J-types get caught in habits very easily, and if they can't meet the usual criteria to fulfill that habit, then they fill it in with other things, even if it's just plain gross.

Someone needs to run a poll on Js and their attachments and habits.