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Philosophy is dead

The Void

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I killed philosophy. I root it out from my system.
It is out of my system. It is dead.
Enough of everything. All this pointless pondering, rationalizing,
backward rationalizing, to maintain the story, to create artifial basis
for stupid stories and hopes, so many things can be done,
so many logics can be used,
so many ways, so many views,
all feces, I dont even have a frame of referrence to seriously distinguish fece from
non-feces or anything from anything.

Nothing matters, all is permitted! hoo hooO!
 

Cognisant

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No that's science, you don't get to ignore science.
 

Helvete

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Philosophizing about philosophy being dead. Using it you have concluded everything is pointless/doesn't really matter; science and religion are the same thing anyway.

Philosophy lives for as long as your mind is permitted to think. It's paradoxical and you know it, you philosophised about it. You just chose to ignore it as nothing matters.

Dead is actually philosophy.
 

Pizzabeak

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Was that supposed to be some type of satire? What would make it hard to tell?
 

The Void

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Philosophizing about philosophy being dead. Using it you have concluded everything is pointless/doesn't really matter; science and religion are the same thing anyway.

Philosophy lives for as long as your mind is permitted to think. It's paradoxical and you know it, you philosophised about it. You just chose to ignore it as nothing matters.

Dead is actually philosophy.

Yes I made it suicide.
 

The Void

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Gravity doesn't exist. :rolleyes:

No one no what is gravity.
It is just crazy weird phenomenon going on,a
nd people just look behin it, find some cause and effect, give it a name,
and start to think they know,
whatever,
there are some default rules everywhere.
But default rules are there to be broken!
but a law can only be defied by using a higher law,
and the highest law can never be defied.
so thats one problem.
but whatever,
I am sick of this conceptualizing,
btw,
all is permitted!=all is possible to do.
You may be permitted to break gravity,
but can you break it ?
Try it, it is up to you, but you have the permission.
I may be permitted to kill everyone, but that doesnt diretcly imply that I can do that.
 

kora

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More existential nihilism how original yawn.
 

The Void

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Nihilism is dead too from my system.
I killed nihilism with nihilism.
 

The Void

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It doesnt matter if nothing matters or everything matters, it is all out of my system.
These vague concepts of nothing and mattering, all is out of me.
 

~~~

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Long live logic.
 

kora

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Nihilism is dead too from my system.
I killed nihilism with nihilism.

Meta nihilism is still nihilism, the word means what you are doing. Maybe it's a form of zen nihilism you have achieved. You should become a monk in forest in India or something.
 

The Void

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Meta nihilism is still nihilism, the word means what you are doing. Maybe it's a form of zen nihilism you have achieved. You should become a monk in forest in India or something.

why become a monk? I dont see the point in becoming a monk?
I may become for nothing, or to just experience, or whatever, one day,
but still I dont see any reason, and even if there is a reason, I dont see how to care about that reason,
I am already a monk in India, a city-monk, without any personal will (without even a real persona, recently, I againt used an alternate account to manipulate some people, and making my enemies like me, by paraphrasing what I say, and changing the tone, but what I found is that that persona is as much true as my original persona or more precisely I dont have an original persona, I am a mask without any face behind it, )
blowing with the wind,
 

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The people who shun philosophy tend to be morons who do not understand the importance of having a chart of what actually compromises human rationality rather than their idealized picture of it.

They hit full throttle, heading of straight for truth in their racing-car all the while blindfolded and pathetically unaware of the fact that the path to truth is actually riddled with turns and twist. Inevitably they end up in a ditch with their sweet ride a total wreck. Since blindfolded however, they don't understand what's happened, they never saw themselves crash, hence they presume that some form of irrationality must surely be the cause of their demise which isn't really demise anyway. Whereafter they stop progressing intellectually but still feel like they do whenever science makes some new discovery. Observers, never able to actually partake; sitting in a crashed car mimicking the sound of an engine.

Alternatively they just have other priorities, in that case it's fine.
 

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No matter what we do, it is we who do it. Therefore psychology reigns supreme and replaces everything else.
 

Cherry Cola

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Putting doctrines in a hierarchy in order to only bother the ones who end up at the top in your view is limiting to ones scope of vision and a naive undertaking.

You can even make allegories to the scientific method, in the early stages of investigating the validity of a theory quantitative research is crucial, not just qualitative.
 

BigApplePi

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Putting doctrines in a hierarchy in order to only bother the ones who end up at the top in your view is limiting to ones scope of vision and a naive undertaking.
Challenge: any hierarchy can be rearranged so the top is at the bottom and the bottom is at the top.


You can even make allegories to the scientific method, in the early stages of investigating the validity of a theory quantitative research is crucial, not just qualitative.
If that means there is no quality unless there is plenty of quantity to evaluate and refer to, I agree.
 

The Void

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The people who shun philosophy tend to be morons who do not understand the importance of having a chart of what actually compromises human rationality rather than their idealized picture of it.

They hit full throttle, heading of straight for truth in their racing-car all the while blindfolded and pathetically unaware of the fact that the path to truth is actually riddled with turns and twist. Inevitably they end up in a ditch with their sweet ride a total wreck. Since blindfolded however, they don't understand what's happened, they never saw themselves crash, hence they presume that some form of irrationality must surely be the cause of their demise which isn't really demise anyway. Whereafter they stop progressing intellectually but still feel like they do whenever science makes some new discovery. Observers, never able to actually partake; sitting in a crashed car mimicking the sound of an engine.

Alternatively they just have other priorities, in that case it's fine.

Philosophy has my highest respect,
but the value of my highest respect is void.
 

The Void

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Was that supposed to be some type of satire? What would make it hard to tell?

Yes and no. I don't know, why I wrote this post.
As Helvete stated, it is paradoxical to say philosophy is dead,
it is dead yet it is not dead (I am talking about my own mind not that the philosophy is dead in the world ), and it is dead to such an extent, that this apparent conclusion of mine, is not really my conclusion, and all these blabberings and philosophies of mine, are not really some dear of mine, those are out of me, just pass time,
just some jokes, I myself am a joke, a brake failed car without a driver.
 

Cherry Cola

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Challenge: any hierarchy can be rearranged so the top is at the bottom and the bottom is at the top.


If that means there is no quality unless there is plenty of quantity to evaluate and refer to, I agree.

Ah, but then your goal is not to create the optimal hierarchy and then keep using that one arrangement only as you've deemed it the most efficient one for attaining knowledge. Hence you avoid issues of tunnel-visioning.

This sets you apart from people like Lyra or Cog. Though it also makes the task of achieving knowledge all the more painstaking.
 

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Sciences use axiomatic formal systems such as geometry, praxeology, or logic to come with theories or truths to describe the world/nature. These systems are products of the human mind. The study of the mind is philosophy.
 

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Ah, but then your goal is not to create the optimal hierarchy and then keep using that one arrangement only as you've deemed it the most efficient one for attaining knowledge. Hence you avoid issues of tunnel-visioning.
Knowledge can be seen as a hierarchy within an individual. It can be seen as a flat list as with an encyclopedia. If we are to create this "optimal hierarchy" in some chosen objective sense, it would have to be agreed up on by groups of people. This may not be doable. It's like asking, where is the top of a ball? There ain't none.


This sets you apart from people like Lyra or Cog. Though it also makes the task of achieving knowledge all the more painstaking.
Both of those guys are specialists constructing their own special knowledges. I do take a more overall outlook but tend to shirk Te/Se preferring theory itself.
 

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The study of the mind is philosophy.
I never heard it put that way and don't know what to think of it. How the mind behaves is psychology. What the mind is interested in could be called philosophy if we don't restrict ourselves to just the mind. The whole of being counts too.


Sciences use axiomatic formal systems such as geometry, praxeology, or logic to come with theories or truths to describe the world/nature. These systems are products of the human mind.
True, except how we come up with those systems is psychology. Trying to formalize the whole business could be science, but there are lots of sciences. I'd want to check out each one.
 

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I never heard it put that way and don't know what to think of it. How the mind behaves is psychology. What the mind is interested in could be called philosophy if we don't restrict ourselves to just the mind. The whole of being counts too.

Right, psychology is the behavior or the internal events that result in some action. We don't need to restrict philosophy to just the mind, but when studying the mind it requires philosophy. Philosophy of mind is central to explaining action and cognition.

Also the mind is not restricted to the body it could very well part of the external as well - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Mind

True, except how we come up with those systems is psychology. Trying to formalize the whole business could be science, but there are lots of sciences. I'd want to check out each one.
Yeah but psychology like other natural sciences need to be validated or refuted by empirical testing, which can of course always change once you introduce different variables. So we might find some psychological law that states that humans behave a certain way causing something to happen, but it might be falsified in the future.

With axiomatic systems like geometry, theorems are implied in its axioms through deductions. When we think about a triangle we acknowledge Pythagoreans theorem. These systems are apriori mental tools created by tautologies and analytic judgments, giving us access to new realms of knowledge.
 

nexion

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Nihilism is dead too from my system.
I killed nihilism with nihilism.
One time I tried basing my entire philosophical systems on the ideas put forth by nihilism, purely as a proof of concept that it is a viable and self-sufficient worldview. A year or two later, and I can't tell if I have succeeded by transcending the concept and incorporating it into my Being or if have utterly failed to uphold its central tenets in my own life and gone back to some form of existentialism. I doubt the two really look so different.
 

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Mind
I am interested in this concept, so does that only apply on non living objects or does it also apply to another being with a mind of its own? So when I am asking my brother to go fetch me a thing that I can't reach for me does that make my brother a part of my mind? I find this almost similar with the concept of the hive mind
 

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Cherry Cola

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@Josteen

In principle it does, but a concept is a concept. Sure it's called "extended mind" but that doesn't mean that it covers everything which can be said to be an extension of the mind.

It's the same thing with the word "mind". In principle one can certainly say that our minds do not end at our body as we are constantly connected to the external world through our senses. But at the same time that expands the meaning of the word mind far beyond its original. Which could lead to the word "mind" being hard to use without it suffering ambiguity unless you specify the context. But specifying the context doesn't make for particularly efficient communication, hence why it might be better to just use another word for the part of the mind outside our external bodies. Indeed, we typically call sensory input stimuli, even though there internal stimuli as well as external and the two are not principally different, a certain amount of demarcation may be necessary anyway if but for allowing efficient communication.

A writer who likes to extend the meaning of words is Carl Jung; his works notorious for being difficult to read. You have to get some experience with his way of writing and with the specific meanings he assigns to ordinary words. I guess the point is that the meaning of all and any word considered alone is somewhat arbitrary, but in a language it has a specific place which gives it clarity, what it doesn't cover even though in principle it could being covered by another word which in turn could cover more than it does but doesn't.

I'm not sure how much ground the concept of "extended mind" covers, further investigation is required to properly answer your question.
 

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The Void

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@Josteen

In principle it does, but a concept is a concept. Sure it's called "extended mind" but that doesn't mean that it covers everything which can be said to be an extension of the mind.

It's the same thing with the word "mind". In principle one can certainly say that our minds do not end at our body as we are constantly connected to the external world through our senses. But at the same time that expands the meaning of the word mind far beyond its original. Which could lead to the word "mind" being hard to use without it suffering ambiguity unless you specify the context. But specifying the context doesn't make for particularly efficient communication, hence why it might be better to just use another word for the part of the mind outside our external bodies. Indeed, we typically call sensory input stimuli, even though there internal stimuli as well as external and the two are not principally different, a certain amount of demarcation may be necessary anyway if but for allowing efficient communication.

A writer who likes to extend the meaning of words is Carl Jung; his works notorious for being difficult to read. You have to get some experience with his way of writing and with the specific meanings he assigns to ordinary words. I guess the point is that the meaning of all and any word considered alone is somewhat arbitrary, but in a language it has a specific place which gives it clarity, what it doesn't cover even though in principle it could being covered by another word which in turn could cover more than it does but doesn't.

I'm not sure how much ground the concept of "extended mind" covers, further investigation is required to properly answer your question.

The body that is percieved, is within the mind, all is a representation within the mind,
the whole world you percieve is your mind, is illuminated solely by your consciousness,

that doesnt mean all is within consciousness, it just means all that you are conscious of is within your consciousness, your expereince, and you are the experience, because experiencer and experience are one,

but not necessarily the experienced is the same as experiencer.
 

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All things carry a trace and have effect. There is only awareness; wisdom is an illusion. Nothing is true; everything is permitted
........0_o.............
 

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If two people sat and watched each other while they imagined having sex with one another until both parts climaxed that would constitute a mind fuck wouldn't it?

But if you were to say to someone: I just mind fucked my girlfriend it was awesome!

They would totally misunderstand you.
 

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I get it so you mean although those concept have some form of relation that doesn't mean that it should cover the same meaning or even have the same meaning, and therefore it was the reason why it was separated in the first place in which case it was me who was mistaken in trying to find the correlation of those concepts
 

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Yeah but psychology like other natural sciences need to be validated or refuted by empirical testing, which can of course always change once you introduce different variables. So we might find some psychological law that states that humans behave a certain way causing something to happen, but it might be falsified in the future.
Psychology, like other sciences is fond of the scientific method: observation = data collection, hypothesis = theory, testing, verifying. Psychology like sociology are both relatively new sciences. Perhaps they are still stuck at the data collection stage where the next stage as has been done with biology, is classification. Psychology has been proposing theories as to classification and it's too early to come up with rules and regulations which can be put into laws.



With axiomatic systems like geometry, theorems are implied in its axioms through deductions. When we think about a triangle we acknowledge Pythagoreans theorem. These systems are apriori mental tools created by tautologies and analytic judgments, giving us access to new realms of knowledge.
Of all the sciences, mathematics is the most logical with verified laws. I propose the hard sciences got hard through a lot of hard work over centuries of data collection and theorizing. We can think of them as vertical, whereby we can go up and down the logic chain. Not so with the soft sciences. They are still "mushy." They are more horizontal where we are still stuck at the bottom.

Oddly enough, classical physics is hard while particle physics is still stuck at the theory stage. Particle physics is so busy with verification and data collection, it doesn't know how the theories work that it is verifying.

Then where does philosophy belong in all this?
 

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Psychology, like other sciences is fond of the scientific method: observation = data collection, hypothesis = theory, testing, verifying. Psychology like sociology are both relatively new sciences. Perhaps they are still stuck at the data collection stage where the next stage as has been done with biology, is classification. Psychology has been proposing theories as to classification and it's too early to come up with rules and regulations which can be put into laws.



Of all the sciences, mathematics is the most logical with verified laws. I propose the hard sciences got hard through a lot of hard work over centuries of data collection and theorizing. We can think of them as vertical, whereby we can go up and down the logic chain. Not so with the soft sciences. They are still "mushy." They are more horizontal where we are still stuck at the bottom.

Oddly enough, classical physics is hard while particle physics is still stuck at the theory stage. Particle physics is so busy with verification and data collection, it doesn't know how the theories work that it is verifying.

Then where does philosophy belong in all this?

philosophy is everything, the superset of all of it, lol, why, becoz i say so...
 

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Of all the sciences, mathematics is the most logical with verified laws. I propose the hard sciences got hard through a lot of hard work over centuries of data collection and theorizing. We can think of them as vertical, whereby we can go up and down the logic chain. Not so with the soft sciences. They are still "mushy." They are more horizontal where we are still stuck at the bottom.

Oddly enough, classical physics is hard while particle physics is still stuck at the theory stage. Particle physics is so busy with verification and data collection, it doesn't know how the theories work that it is verifying.

Then where does philosophy belong in all this?

The thing with Mathematics and other formal sciences is they are non-empirical by nature. They are based on apriori truths - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_sciences#Differences_from_other_forms_of_science

Philosophy belongs in this because science requires propositions that philosophers have developed. Take for example the proposition:

"All bachelors are unmarried" - this is aprioi statement and doesn't rely on experience for justification. We know it is true by the acknowledging the concept 'bachelor' means unmarried already. Another one is "All triangles have three sides."

For more information read Ludwig von Mises - Human Action or Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason. Mises' expands from Kant and is more modern, it is unfortunate how overlooked his work is.
 

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Sciences use axiomatic formal systems such as geometry, praxeology, or logic to come with theories or truths to describe the world/nature. These systems are products of the human mind. The study of the mind is philosophy.

Nope, that's nueropsychology.

Also, I prefer to read your name as "anal-izer".
 

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The study of the mind.

According to Wikipedia:
Neuropsychology studies the structure and function of the brain as they relate to specific psychological processes and behaviors. It is seen as a clinical and experimental field of psychology that aims to study, assess, understand and treat behaviors directly related to brain functioning.
From this definition it seems as this study is based on empirical evidence or experimentation. The epistemology or defining the actual knowledge of what actually is the mind is pure philosophy though. Certain philosophers have dealt with the mind-body problem and have came up with a variety of theories on what constitutes the mind.

Materialists will agree that studying the mind using empirical methods is the only or primary way to study the mind, which is what I believe you are stating.
 

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Philosophy of Consciousness and Natural Science

Whoever reads the following passages, and has never dealt with the philosophy of consciousness before, perhaps will be flabbergasted by the fact, that he'll find himself involved in a discussion of issues (e. g. consciousness, ego, perception, free will) he has heard about in the context of brain-researches and brain-theories, but never will meet any discussion about those theories. - On the contrary he will find, that Sartre, when he mentions the brain, does it with some contempt. Here and in "Being and Nothingness" Sartre implies, that knowledge about cerebral functions is not capable, to contribute to the solution of the problems, he is dealing with.

One might think, this is due to the fact, that brain research was just not evolved enough in Sartre's time. I caution against this kind of preconception. Indeed, the viewpoint taken by philosophy is really not the same as the viewpoint of brain science (or science of evolution as well). And this is not the case because of some compensation of the lack of fundamental empirical knowledge about the brain by figments, when people in prescientific ages mused about consciousness, as if they compensated their ignorance concerning the real facts of nature by magical-mythical constructs. - Philosophy is entitled to have its own point of view in those issues, which can be demonstrated by some little thought experiment (not a very groundbreaking one, you'll find many experiments of this kind in the scriptures of Wittgenstein and elsewhere).

Assumed, Erich von Daeniken was right: In biblical times aliens landed on earth and settled on it. These aliens (respectively their descendants) are still here. They live on a little island, hidden in the ocean, and have been recently discovered by some geologists, because they expect to find oil deposits on the island. - A team of scientists is sent to them, and they assert the following: The aliens are very similar to humans, not just by looks. They talk some language, they form social smallgroups, although they sometimes seem to conflict with each other; they are hospitable against the team of researchers, they express emotions, are capable of considerable intellectual performances, etc. Whereas the similarity disappears, when the aliens are examined by physicians: The inside of their bodies is composed in entirely other ways than the inside of the bodies of higher mammals on earth. There are no distinguishable organs, not even cells. And in their heads are no brains, the only thing inside is some water-filled bubble.

These facts give rise to the following sentences in the final report, written by the chief scientist: "Because of their lacking of brains those creatures have no cerebral cortex and no limbic system. It is very well known, that emotions and awareness are located in those regions, hence we can be shure, that the aliens are totally unconscious. There is no reason, to have regards for them, when the oil production starts. As unconscious beings the aliens have no right of possession and are not more entitled to fair treatement than the rocks on the surface. We recommend their extinction, if they disturb production."

This passage seems criminal. But why? The scientists draw no other conclusion than an allotgardener, when he is killing the snails on his ground without musing about their feelings, since snails are no conscious beings. But there is a crucial difference: The aliens behave and act in another way than snails usually do. And the cause of our presumption that they are conscious lies not in their physiology, but in the kind of behaviour, they have showed to the researchers, no matter, what their physical composition might be.

The major result of the thought experiment is: To ask for the consciousness of somebody doesn't mean in the first place to ask for his physiology. The "cerebral" point of view, which allows it the doctor, to state the unconsciousness of his patient due to the absence of certain brain functions is a derived point of view! It results, for instance, from the observation, that people, whose brains are in a special kind of state, do not respond or act any more and show no remembrance, if they are lucky enough to be awakened again.

After all, the conclusion goes from a special kind of behavior or acting to the presence of consciousness. Even the famous Turing-Test shares this presupposition: the test wants to prove, that a machine "thinks" (is conscious). It consists of a dialogue between a human and the tested machine. If the human after a certain time is not capable to distinguish the answers of the machine from the answers of a human being (and answers are a case of behaviour), the test results in the assertion, that the machine is in fact intelligent. - But why takes Turing it for ensured, that behaviour is the sole criterion for the consciousness of something or somebody? Isn't it conceivable, that seemingly conscious behaviour is in fact unconscious, automatic, even if it occurs for a long time?

Indeed, natural science is not a suitable tool to resolve the problem, whether those aliens are conscious beings. The problem leads us further to a philosophical question: which criteria do we use, if we acknowledge beeings as conscious? - But there is still another reason for the fact, that a specific philosophical account of consciousness is indispensable. This reason lies in something, which can be called "the subjective quality of experiences". When I'm in pain, it is possible to lead back this fact to particular neuronal processes (more precisely, it has become apparent, that you'll find those processes very often in the nervous systems of persons, who utter pain, and that persons usually don't utter pain, if there are no such processes in their nervous systems). But a description of neuronal processes - what has it to do with the pains of a person? Pains are unpleasent, nasty, inconvenient, they suck - but where do you find those aspects in a neuronal description?

There is one aspect of pain, that cannot be part of a physiological description from the start: The experience "pain", which seems to be the very own property of the one, who is in pain (other people can perceive this aspect just in their own cases). You can't infer this aspect from a reductionist scientific description. - Put another way: If you see a human being as a physical-chemical complex, in the way natural science usually does, it remains possible and conceivable, that this human is not conscious, although he behaves like everybody.

It was the subjective quality of experiences, which led modern philosophers to the opinion, that there must be a special realm, in which consciousness is located seperate from the rest of the world (many later philosophers have abandoned this kind of view). Descartes maintains a theory like this, and for a long time his successors were occupied with the question, how interactions between those two worlds are possible: There is undoubtedly no spatiality in the area of consciousness (thoughts, pains etc. are not extended), so it is impossible, to use mechanical causal relations, like they are common in the world of things, to explain e.g. how an act of volition causes my arm to move.

I want to emphasize the fact, that Sartre's thinking is rooted in this kind of tradition. The special detachedness, the isolation, which is attributed to consciousness, gives rise to the use of introspection as the most important procedure in the philosophy of consciousness (I am the only one who is able to find out, what is going on in my consciousness, and the way to do so is to "look inside"). Nevertheless the opinion is that knowledge, gained with this method, is generalizable. - Almost all of Sartre's reasonings, in "The Transcendence of Ego" as well as in "Being and Nothingness" rely on facts, which are ascertained mainly by introspection.

Maybe it's important to note, that Sartre's issue is exclusively the consciousness of humans. He never talks about animals (or aliens as well), and he also never explicitely discusses the problem of criteria (although it is touched where Sartre describes the "look"). - It's an interesting question, whether it is possible to applicate Sartre's philosophy in the case of higher nonhuman mammals (Are dogs free?).
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