Perparing Humanity for Space: Politics

[Cognisant]

I added ": Politics" because I might do a series of these.

Okay so suppose we go all Star Trek and venture forth to explore the great unknown and while doing so we encounter alien races, based off the world as it is now what sort of impression would we make?

I'm think Ferengi but as belligerent psychotic compulsive liars, oh sure individual humans aren't so bad but as a species we're a fucking nightmare, the way we treat the people of our own nations is disgusting much less how we treat people of other nations, based on that how do you think we would treat people of an entirely different species? If we encountered an intelligent alien race we wouldn't wipe them out, no that would be a kindness, rather the moment we sensed weakness we would contrive some bullshit reason to go to war with them, conquer them, enslave them (but not call it slavery) then selectively breed them to be more subservient and aesthetically appealing.

Spoiler: This is what we did to wolves

So if humanity went out into the universe and we encounter civilizations far larger and more advanced than our own, which is most likely going to be the case if we're new on the scene, we're going to get our asses kicked. Quite rightly too, we're terrible people with terrible ethics and a terrible culture, we need to get our asses kicked a few times to set us straight.

Alternatively with a bit of forethought we can consider why we might need our asses kicked and sort ourselves out before we hit the galactic stage, for example the word "human" what does that mean exactly? Is it our species, no we already have a word for that we're homo sapiens and even if they're synonymous with the advent of genetic engineering, cybernetics, artificial intelligence and good old genetic divergence due to environment specific selection pressures the definition of "human" is going to have to expand so much it will eventually lose all meaning.

So I propose we repurpose the word, rather than a denotation of species maybe the word "human" could represent a set of ideals and whether or not something aligns with those ideals determines whether or not we consider it human. By this definition an alien could be human, an AI could be human, a sentient energy cloud could be human, no matter what it is or where it comes from anything could be human. Now these ideals should be fairly universal, things like respecting the sanctity of consciousness in all its forms, believing in and being willing to fight for freedom and equality, being opposed to slavery and exploitation, y'know the ethical easy wins.

Now if we come across an alien race and they ask us "what are you?" we say "we're human" and with them looking at this menagerie of different creatures and cyborgs and robots and whatever the fuck protogens are they can't help but ask "well what does that mean?". So we tell them that human is actually a set of ideals and what ideals those are and those being fairly universal ideals to which the aliens reply "oh yeah we have those ideals too" so we tell them "oh well then you must be human."

"...what?"

"You're humans, it doesn't matter what you are what you look like or where you came from if you share our ideals then that makes you human and being human makes you our kin and thus we are your allies."

"...what?"

"Join us brethren, we shall explore the universe and unite all of our kind."

I've got more to cover but I really need to go to bed now.
The next part will be on teaching ethical egoism and a philosophy of overcoming human nature, which if you think about it is actually at the core of any civilization, to have a civilization you need people that are civilized which is really just a fancy way of saying "well trained". Despite our intelligence humans are still fundamentally animals, we need to be trained to be civil.

 

[LoveYourselfAndLoveOthers]

Have you ever read The Culture series? I hope when we go to the stars, we become more like that... I think if you're not behaving, a drone called a 'slap drone' just follows you around and prods you.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Depends who we put on the Enterprise. If we put a bunch of trained and disciplined astronauts and scientists as we usually do then they would be very dumb but well meaning idiots who would probably recognize that the best they can do is observe without interfering.

If we put average entrepreneurs, religious people, politicians or soldiers on board then we will cause a diplomatic crisis after crisis or worse disasters.

 

[scorpiomover]

I added ": Politics" because I might do a series of these.

Okay so suppose we go all Star Trek and venture forth to explore the great unknown and while doing so we encounter alien races, based off the world as it is now what sort of impression would we make?

I'm think Ferengi but as belligerent psychotic compulsive liars, oh sure individual humans aren't so bad but as a species we're a fucking nightmare, the way we treat the people of our own nations is disgusting much less how we treat people of other nations, based on that how do you think we would treat people of an entirely different species?

We'd treat them the same way we treated other new subspecies of humans in the Amazonian jungle.

Probably give them COVID. Then blame white people for being so inconsiderate.

So if humanity went out into the universe and we encounter civilizations far larger and more advanced than our own, which is most likely going to be the case if we're new on the scene, we're going to get our asses kicked. Quite rightly too, we're terrible people with terrible ethics and a terrible culture, we need to get our asses kicked a few times to set us straight.

What makes you think you'd be more likely to learn from a war on a different planet in a different solar system, than learning from 2 world wars that had a major effect on the people of your planet?

Alternatively with a bit of forethought we can consider why we might need our asses kicked and sort ourselves out before we hit the galactic stage, for example the word "human" what does that mean exactly? Is it our species, no we already have a word for that we're homo sapiens and even if they're synonymous with the advent of genetic engineering, cybernetics, artificial intelligence and good old genetic divergence due to environment specific selection pressures the definition of "human" is going to have to expand so much it will eventually lose all meaning.

So I propose we repurpose the word, rather than a denotation of species maybe the word "human" could represent a set of ideals and whether or not something aligns with those ideals determines whether or not we consider it human. By this definition an alien could be human, an AI could be human, a sentient energy cloud could be human, no matter what it is or where it comes from anything could be human. Now these ideals should be fairly universal, things like respecting the sanctity of consciousness in all its forms, believing in and being willing to fight for freedom and equality, being opposed to slavery and exploitation, y'know the ethical easy wins.

Now if we come across an alien race and they ask us "what are you?" we say "we're human" and with them looking at this menagerie of different creatures and cyborgs and robots and whatever the fuck protogens are they can't help but ask "well what does that mean?". So we tell them that human is actually a set of ideals and what ideals those are and those being fairly universal ideals to which the aliens reply "oh yeah we have those ideals too" so we tell them "oh well then you must be human."

"...what?"

"You're humans, it doesn't matter what you are what you look like or where you came from if you share our ideals then that makes you human and being human makes you our kin and thus we are your allies."

"...what?"

"Join us brethren, we shall explore the universe and unite all of our kind."

Sounds way too much like a cult.

If "being human" is NOT the same as "being a part of the human species", then "being human" is just another ideological movement trying to masquerade as yet another genetic fallacy.

I've got more to cover but I really need to go to bed now.
The next part will be on teaching ethical egoism and a philosophy of overcoming human nature, which if you think about it is actually at the core of any civilization, to have a civilization you need people that are civilized which is really just a fancy way of saying "well trained". Despite our intelligence humans are still fundamentally animals, we need to be trained to be civil.

We don't need to be trained to be civil. We need to be civil.

Being civil, isn't about learning what to do. It's about accepting that there are some things you want to do to some people or for some people, that you can't, because civil people don't do those things.

Some of the things you want to do, are uncivil. Being civil, means not doing those things.

Once you accept that fundamental principle, the rest is a matter of training on the applications of that general principle.

 

[sushi]

imperialism or star trek non interventionism

Multiplanet already means we might diverge into different species rather than a single race.

its either coexistence or killing each other.

 

[Cognisant]

Discipline training has a profound effect on the way a person thinks which is why boot camps put an emphasis on teaching people to do basic stuff like making their bed, shining their shoes, keeping an orderly locker, parade drills, saluting, etc. Because discipline isn't just conditioning, it's a mindset, a well disciplined person is self motivated, they don't do what they're supposed to because a sergeant will yell at them. They do it because they've internalized what's expected of them and now they're trying to excel at it, they don't need a sergeant to yell at them anymore they are their own sergeant, they yell at themselves (internally).

It's like the difference between being an employee and self employed, as an employee if there's no opportunity to advance there's no motivation to excel, but if you're running your own business your efforts directly affect your results. A solider who has internalized his discipline training actively pursues disciplined behavior because he sees that as the path to success, whether that be rising in rank or merely being praised for being an exemplary solider.

Indeed if we compare the stereotypes of people of lower and higher socioeconomic backgrounds this is essentially the difference, people from poorer backgrounds tend not to be reared well and are consequently undisciplined, impulsive and basically feral. Whereas people from more affluent backgrounds who have been reared well exhibit more disciplined goal-orientated behavior and hold themselves to a higher standard of conduct. There are of course exceptions, people who become disciplined through necessity or who come from money but turn feral from a lack of parenting, or people who are adopted and adapt to the behavior of their adoptive parents.

Now discipline is good but you cannot just give well disciplined people a list of rules to follow and expect them to be ethical, they need to understand what ethics is so they can practice ethical decision making themselves. Teaching critical thinking gives them the tools to think for themselves and a general education in moral philosophy will fast track their development (wisdom) but they'll also need a reason to be ethical.

Traditionally this would be religion, people being taught to fear god or love for thy neighbor and usually some combination thereof, moral philosophy may be centuries ahead of the "morality" you'll find in a bible but philosophy only covers the how, attempts have been made but philosophy can't really deliver on the why, as in why should you be ethical.

Sounds way too much like a cult.

Very astute.

Despite being derived from philosophy ethical egoism is not a philosophy itself but rather a cult, a philosophy is objective and derived from reason but there's no purely rational answer for why you should be ethical. Consequentialism is an attempt at it based on rational self interest but we can't always be sure of the consequences of our actions and even accounting for uncertainty consequentialism is still only a reason to act ethically, no a reason to be ethical.

I know it seems like such a pedantic difference, if it's functionally equivalent 99% of the time why does it matter? Well it matters because the premise of this thread is that when humanity spreads out to the stars we will encounter powers greater than our own and we be judged and it behooves us to ensure we are judged favorably.

We want them to want to join us.

 

[Rune]

Lol.. well if humans survive past this covid crap, pretty sure that politics/governments are going to be nearly unrecognizable by the time people can truly colonize space to any extent.

but Id suggest if people study political styles and stop hiding that there are more than are known from mainstream, and glorifying democracy as if a singular option..
that we can at least hold ourselves accountable and destroy the *sovereign power* terminology, to avoid police states and hidden dictatorships or corrupt authoritarians.
If you cant sue the government?
Ok, it may seem like a double-edged sword.. if anyone can sue the government, the government as a power will be diminished, and may even become pointless anyway.
but if you cant sue the government, the chance of reform to any extent is lost to the people that live under those political jurisdictions.

I would recommend that there are places where people can treat politics like religion, which as it gets to be just as heated and pushed, why the heck not?
And if people prefer one government style there may be accessible options for them to go to a place that might fit their belief standards better.

If we have so much space and there are plenty of available planets to terraform, I dont see why this shouldnt be a possibility!

but if we just look at terraforming Mars or habitable moons for the time being, well, I expect that there could be some anarchy as the new colonists try to sort their new culture out.

as well as if aliens are discovered, NOT repeating mistakes from white europeans screwng their Native American hosts in the fucking back.
Wed need an INSTANT federation, which means we need to not only consider it a POTENTIAL, but also be prepared to consider those other species' needs right off the bat.

We need to start off on the right foot in exploring space from the outset.
if we jump in too fast, well find ourselves regretting our lack of preparation.

For a federation, global or universal, they should have only as many laws as is absolutely required and poignant ones at that so you dont have an entire library of law books to keep up with and everything is streamlined and straightforward, the means and resources to carry these laws out.

then they stay out of peoples business unless it becomes their jurisdiction, make decisions that can be reviewed and questioned and denied by the entirety of the people they work for depending on how suitable those decisions are.
and of course indefinitely continued research on how to improve such systems.

Continued learning to improve the system and its efficiency should always be the highest priority over the system itself.
even if changes may be slow.

 

[Beliefofmine]

I added ": Politics" because I might do a series of these.

Okay so suppose we go all Star Trek and venture forth to explore the great unknown and while doing so we encounter alien races, based off the world as it is now what sort of impression would we make?

I'm think Ferengi but as belligerent psychotic compulsive liars, oh sure individual humans aren't so bad but as a species we're a fucking nightmare, the way we treat the people of our own nations is disgusting much less how we treat people of other nations, based on that how do you think we would treat people of an entirely different species? If we encountered an intelligent alien race we wouldn't wipe them out, no that would be a kindness, rather the moment we sensed weakness we would contrive some bullshit reason to go to war with them, conquer them, enslave them (but not call it slavery) then selectively breed them to be more subservient and aesthetically appealing.

Spoiler: This is what we did to wolves

View attachment 5697

So if humanity went out into the universe and we encounter civilizations far larger and more advanced than our own, which is most likely going to be the case if we're new on the scene, we're going to get our asses kicked. Quite rightly too, we're terrible people with terrible ethics and a terrible culture, we need to get our asses kicked a few times to set us straight.

Alternatively with a bit of forethought we can consider why we might need our asses kicked and sort ourselves out before we hit the galactic stage, for example the word "human" what does that mean exactly? Is it our species, no we already have a word for that we're homo sapiens and even if they're synonymous with the advent of genetic engineering, cybernetics, artificial intelligence and good old genetic divergence due to environment specific selection pressures the definition of "human" is going to have to expand so much it will eventually lose all meaning.

So I propose we repurpose the word, rather than a denotation of species maybe the word "human" could represent a set of ideals and whether or not something aligns with those ideals determines whether or not we consider it human. By this definition an alien could be human, an AI could be human, a sentient energy cloud could be human, no matter what it is or where it comes from anything could be human. Now these ideals should be fairly universal, things like respecting the sanctity of consciousness in all its forms, believing in and being willing to fight for freedom and equality, being opposed to slavery and exploitation, y'know the ethical easy wins.

Now if we come across an alien race and they ask us "what are you?" we say "we're human" and with them looking at this menagerie of different creatures and cyborgs and robots and whatever the fuck protogens are they can't help but ask "well what does that mean?". So we tell them that human is actually a set of ideals and what ideals those are and those being fairly universal ideals to which the aliens reply "oh yeah we have those ideals too" so we tell them "oh well then you must be human."

"...what?"

"You're humans, it doesn't matter what you are what you look like or where you came from if you share our ideals then that makes you human and being human makes you our kin and thus we are your allies."

"...what?"

"Join us brethren, we shall explore the universe and unite all of our kind."

I've got more to cover but I really need to go to bed now.
The next part will be on teaching ethical egoism and a philosophy of overcoming human nature, which if you think about it is actually at the core of any civilization, to have a civilization you need people that are civilized which is really just a fancy way of saying "well trained". Despite our intelligence humans are still fundamentally animals, we need to be trained to be civil.

This is a topic that quite intrigues me. I've often sat back and asked the question, if humanity is to become a galactic civilization and make it beyond this planet, what would it take?

Often we're too focused thinking about the here and now, and at most a few years ahead of time, and almost never anything past our own life. However it's easy to fool ourselves into thinking that these great changes will occur within our life time. And while we have seen drastic advances in technology in the last 100 years, I would speculate that it would take longer than 100 more years to get our act together.

I'm torn in two directs. Part of me thinks that the only way that humanity could become a galactic civilization would be if we all worked together, because it would be a monumental undertaking. However in more recent times we've seen private entities creating their own space programs. Will the private sector be the ones who accomplish this? Possible, however I think unlikely, due to the sheer scale.

What would it take? It would likely take a large portion of all the resources that the human race extracts from the planet in order to direct them towards a secondary planetary location. Think about how long it has taken humans to get to the point of infrastructure to mine, farm, extract resources from our own planet. Going to another place in space we likely wouldn't just be able to start strip mining resources required, or plant seeds into the ground. It would likely take generations of terraforming and building infrastructure, of which, the raw resources would have to be sent from planet earth. This would be a huge undertaking because not only would it redirect the resources we produce and require here, it would also require us to ship them through space. Think supply-chain, and the logistics required to supply even our closest planet, mars. A single trip would currently take weeks or months with current technology, and you'd need to plan for weeks and months out of resupply, essentially creating a massive constant convoy of shipping.

 

[Beliefofmine]

What would it take for humans to work together to supply a space colony with resources and supplies for long enough as required to become self sufficient?

Due to the distribution of resources currently on earth, I don't think one world power could unilaterally source all of the required materials. So it would likely take a coalition of the super powers, if not a conjoined global effort to work towards this goal. And given the current geopolitical atmosphere, I think that would be one hurdle.

Some other factors that likely would create a speed bump in this are:
- Free will
- Faith
- substance use
- Personal ownership
- Individuality
- Over Population

Note I am not saying that I agree with these things, or the required actions it would take in order to create a workable future, but I identify them as problematic for working towards a galactic civilization.

Free will, would be problematic because the effort would require contribution from our entire species, and anyone not working towards this goal, would be in some way hindering it. Whether it's taking up resources that could be allocated towards the plan, or active resistance to efforts made to the mission. Here in America we put a high value on freedom, and the ability to think for ourselves, but this would likely need to be stomped out or thwarted in some way in order to have a "hive-mind" like focus on the single mission.

Faith, would be problematic because similar to free will, it gives people a different focus or direction than what would be required. Additionally the variety of religions only feed into the divide between peoples.

Substance use, would be problematic because it creates a lack of efficiency, black markets, violence, etc, all of which would hinder progress towards the goal.

Personal ownership, would be problematic, because the limited resources that we have on this planet, would need to be repurposed and strategically planned to accomplish a mission of this size. Everything would need to be subject to the goal, and personal ownership creates misdirection of that focus.

Individuality, would be problematic, because there is just simply no time for it. The only thing that people need to do, and look forward to in their life would be working towards the completion of the goal. If they are distracted in any number of individuality expressions or endeavors it would cause others to do the same, and eventually nobody would be working towards the goal.

Over population, would be problematic, and this is a touchy subject, it's generally a non-starter, because we have a lot more people living on the planet that don't contribute anything, and are simply taking up resources which could be better directed towards the goal. Physical resources are the limiting factor, humans are not. We likely could ascertain the required resources with a fraction of the current population. If you look at large urban megacities with the people who are homeless, panhandle, paper pushers, store clerks, etc. These people are not providing anything tangible for the goal, and if you remove individuality and personal freedom, a lot of their use is irrelevant. You'd have an over abundance of people to extract resources required for the mission. So you'd need some way of curbing the population down to more manageable levels. However there's no socially acceptable way to present this.

All of these things would create a very different world than we currently live, and would likely be much more harsh, totalitarian, and communistic than we've ever seen before. However I don't see it being feasible any other way. (Again, I'm not pushing for these things, I am just identifying what would be required if we were to set out with this objective in mind). Which is why I think it's unlikely that humanity will reach the point of a galactic civilization. I think it much more likely that we destroy ourselves or our planet before we could get our act together to accomplish something like this.

 

[Rune]

I added ": Politics" because I might do a series of these.

Okay so suppose we go all Star Trek and venture forth to explore the great unknown and while doing so we encounter alien races, based off the world as it is now what sort of impression would we make?

I'm think Ferengi but as belligerent psychotic compulsive liars, oh sure individual humans aren't so bad but as a species we're a fucking nightmare, the way we treat the people of our own nations is disgusting much less how we treat people of other nations, based on that how do you think we would treat people of an entirely different species? If we encountered an intelligent alien race we wouldn't wipe them out, no that would be a kindness, rather the moment we sensed weakness we would contrive some bullshit reason to go to war with them, conquer them, enslave them (but not call it slavery) then selectively breed them to be more subservient and aesthetically appealing.

Spoiler: This is what we did to wolves

View attachment 5697

So if humanity went out into the universe and we encounter civilizations far larger and more advanced than our own, which is most likely going to be the case if we're new on the scene, we're going to get our asses kicked. Quite rightly too, we're terrible people with terrible ethics and a terrible culture, we need to get our asses kicked a few times to set us straight.

Alternatively with a bit of forethought we can consider why we might need our asses kicked and sort ourselves out before we hit the galactic stage, for example the word "human" what does that mean exactly? Is it our species, no we already have a word for that we're homo sapiens and even if they're synonymous with the advent of genetic engineering, cybernetics, artificial intelligence and good old genetic divergence due to environment specific selection pressures the definition of "human" is going to have to expand so much it will eventually lose all meaning.

So I propose we repurpose the word, rather than a denotation of species maybe the word "human" could represent a set of ideals and whether or not something aligns with those ideals determines whether or not we consider it human. By this definition an alien could be human, an AI could be human, a sentient energy cloud could be human, no matter what it is or where it comes from anything could be human. Now these ideals should be fairly universal, things like respecting the sanctity of consciousness in all its forms, believing in and being willing to fight for freedom and equality, being opposed to slavery and exploitation, y'know the ethical easy wins.

Now if we come across an alien race and they ask us "what are you?" we say "we're human" and with them looking at this menagerie of different creatures and cyborgs and robots and whatever the fuck protogens are they can't help but ask "well what does that mean?". So we tell them that human is actually a set of ideals and what ideals those are and those being fairly universal ideals to which the aliens reply "oh yeah we have those ideals too" so we tell them "oh well then you must be human."

"...what?"

"You're humans, it doesn't matter what you are what you look like or where you came from if you share our ideals then that makes you human and being human makes you our kin and thus we are your allies."

"...what?"

"Join us brethren, we shall explore the universe and unite all of our kind."

I've got more to cover but I really need to go to bed now.
The next part will be on teaching ethical egoism and a philosophy of overcoming human nature, which if you think about it is actually at the core of any civilization, to have a civilization you need people that are civilized which is really just a fancy way of saying "well trained". Despite our intelligence humans are still fundamentally animals, we need to be trained to be civil.

I think David Hume summed up what makes someone a Human.
In other words, your species might technically be more based on your philosophical paradigm rather than your actual experience of reality since Hume's idea about Humans isnt one size fits all.