People with strongly-developed secondary functions

[chocolate]

This is my situation:

I am an ENTP of course, and my functions are Ne, Ti, Fe, Si. I know I don't have much hope of developing the last two very strongly, but as for the first two:

Ne excites me and energizes me, for sure. On the other hand, I am now almost done my third degree in pure mathematics (basically I've spent my whole adult life as a mathematician and plan to continue doing so), which has developed my Ti very strongly to the point that I would say I identify with both functions almost equally.

When I meet other ENTPs, I share a lot with them, and I get that "OMG, you're so easy to talk to!" feeling, but while I have fun with them, I do find that I crave more depth. I like using my Ne to find neat things to talk about but then we have to analyze it to great depth for me to be 'satisfied' that we have talked about it. And that 'but then' isn't there with most of the ENTPs I know. So, I find that conversations with INTPs tend to be more stimulating for me in that sense.

Some questions:

Has anyone here strongly developed their secondary function? If so, do you feel some identification with other types who have that function as their primary?

Do you think this is a bit like being ambidextrous? (I am not sure how far the 'handedness' analogy goes as far as explaining how type preferences work).

I am sure I am not INTP, but I do feel a bit un-ENTP-like in the way that I mentioned, kind of like a too-serious ENTP or something...

 

[cheese]

I think the ambidextrous analogy is quite handy, haha

It's interesting that you've developed Ti to such a point. Do you think it's a flaw in the MBTI system rather than a a strengthening of Ti? Do you think it's possible to have 2 dominant functions, or maybe TiNe while still retaining the core E characteristics (in spite of your dominant being introverted)?

Personally:
I think I've mentioned a few times that I have weak preferences, although having read the description for Ti (cognitiveprocesses.com) I do seem quite strong in that area. Sometimes I feel myself struggling in S ways, trying to get at things de-tail by pain-stak-ing de-tail. I think my Ne is quite weak. Fe though seems to be quite strong in some ways. Again I wonder how this all relates to MBTI theory. I would like to study this more in-depth and get answers.

(Mathematician! That's wonderful. What's it like? Sorry I know that's a difficult question to answer!)

 

[chocolate]

I think the ambidextrous analogy is quite handy, haha

It's interesting that you've developed Ti to such a point. Do you think it's a flaw in the MBTI system rather than a a strengthening of Ti? Do you think it's possible to have 2 dominant functions, or maybe TiNe while still retaining the core E characteristics (in spite of your dominant being introverted)?

I wonder? Or more a limitation of the MBTI perhaps? I feel like you could be right, because sure the math develops the Ti, but why was I so attracted to it in the first place? When I read the typical job descriptions for ENTP they have a lot of business and entrepreneurship, leadership etc. Curiously enough, mathematician is never there (but is always on the INTP list). In the math world, extraverts are definitely a minority though. I do believe I could have them switched possibly and still be an extravert, but according to the theory that should be impossible?

My mom is an ENTP and we are very similar in general. But she is way more of the typical ENTP description -- she is not as precise as me but she is much more of a leader and a visionary (and way more extraverted too).

Personally:
I think I've mentioned a few times that I have weak preferences, although having read the description for Ti (cognitiveprocesses.com) I do seem quite strong in that area. Sometimes I feel myself struggling in S ways, trying to get at things de-tail by pain-stak-ing de-tail. I think my Ne is quite weak. Fe though seems to be quite strong in some ways. Again I wonder how this all relates to MBTI theory. I would like to study this more in-depth and get answers.

(Mathematician! That's wonderful. What's it like? Sorry I know that's a difficult question to answer!)

I do sense a strong Fe (edit: and Ti) in your responses (as much as those things are sense-able on a forum). I hear ya on the sensory struggles. About Ne, I don't know how old you are? But I have found that while I've always been an 'ideas person', it has really increased in the last 5 years or so...(~25 up). I don't know if this is typical of how Ne develops or is just me though because it coincided with me coming out of my shell and becoming more confident...


(Yes wonderful in the true sense of the word. It's so much fun, and so creative, and there are so many directions you can go! It's a world of beauty and precision and ambiguity and elegance and depth and the unexpected and always something new...and connections everywhere!)

Btw, two thumbs up for your handy joke, classic N humour!

 

[FacetiousPersona]

I think that certain people that are considered a 'genius' would require 3 or 4 very highly developed functions instead of simply one exceptionally high one. The various functions operating together to an extremely advance extent is what enables the individual to think creatively. Yes, Ne exceptionally high alone may allow very innovative thinking, but with other highly developed functions to support it, the effectiveness of it becomes profound. For example, an individual could have high Ti to analyze subjects deeply and a high Ne to be capable of approaching the subjects from numerous angles. Your approach becomes far superior with multiple high functions.

 

[grey matters]

Someone started a thread on this forum about the 8 functions. I tested as a high Ti (dominate) and Ne and Ni as axillary and tertiary. For me both NE and Ni were high and were almost equally strong to each other. For INTP's the tertiary function is supposed to be Si (according to the website, I am currently reading a book that says that it is too difficult to accurately determine the attitude of the tertiary function).

Anyway I can keep pace with my ENTP husband most of the time, he on the otherhand has difficult with the "but then's" as you call it (Ti stuff). I do not feel ambidexterious though, I can use the Ne I always go back to Ti where I feel comfortable.

 

[Ermine]

I often feel "ambidextrous" with my Ti and Ne. This can be seen in my liking the arts over math and science. I also seem "non INTP" compared to a lot of people here. Most of the time, I'm likely to spout off ideas and then think, rather than think and then present my idea. I identify with INTPs on nearly every level, but the ENTPs I've been exposed to are much more stimulating.

 

[echoplex]

I feel like my Ne is very strong, although so is my Ni, which is suspect is a result of being borderline on the J/P scale. My Te is weak though.

I think the Ti/Ne tandem are best for finding problems just so you can figure them out, which can be annoying to people. But when Ne acts alone, logic takes a back seat and you can be more creative I think.

I think I use Si mostly for appreciating music and art, as well as nostalgic thinking, of which I can get carried away with.

And Fe is just a bastard, although an attractive one. Kinda like an attractive woman who you know isn't right for you, but you're still drawn to her.

Forget about Se. We're not on speaking terms anymore.

 

[grey matters]

^^ Ha ha.

 

[cheese]

Choc:
"Or more a limitation of the MBTI perhaps?"

Yes, I believe the MBTI could do with some revision. I used to scoff at the people worrying about the limitations of type system, and how we might "need 6 billion types" - which obviously defeats the purpose of typing! - but the more I study people the more I see that there are borderline cases like myself (and perhaps you?) that don't fit neatly enough into one type.

In your case specifically: You've mentioned that your E preference is not high - perhaps this also accounts for your strong Ti and the attraction to mathematics.

"I don't know if this is typical of how Ne develops or is just me though because it coincided with me coming out of my shell and becoming more confident..."

I think this is probably how most functions strengthen - by leaving the comfort zone and stretching oneself, and just practice in general. I've learnt to extravert a lot more over the years and I think this has helped Fe grow. (Or perhaps I'm an INFP and have simply come to extravert Fi. But INFP's shadow is Te, and Ti is far behind, which doesn't fit at all.) Ne has also started getting more comfortable recently, for the same reasons.

It's interesting that the shadow functions are generally held to develop only in mid-life. Perhaps this is for the average MBTI-ignorant person, and applying practically one's understanding of type theory and the cognitive processes can speed the development up? Maybe it also has something to do with the environment you're raised in. I had an exceptionally stable and loving upbringing by a massive Te father and an equally massive Fi mother; I think this probably contributed strongly to my balance. Se is the only one I have a major problem with.

Just on a side note: I feel a bit uncomfortable meeting with the complacency some display with their preference limitations. I think we should recognise the good and bad, and develop the other functions as far as possible. Besides, it's useful, as FP pointed out. We should work not on maintaining the relative strength of the one, but on increasing the strength of all the others. We don't need any more limitations!

(Yes wonderful in the true sense of the word. It's so much fun, and so creative, and there are so many directions you can go! It's a world of beauty and precision and ambiguity and elegance and depth and the unexpected and always something new...and connections everywhere!)

I understand this. Not so much in relation to math, but as a lover of truth and its elegance in general. When I get really passionate about stuff like that too I express it the same way, and people give me looks. Some things about math really do astound me, like some of the crazy out-there abstract concepts that, when manipulated and applied, have measurable effects in the real world. That is just mind-blowing. You're lucky to have the ability to study it.

Btw, two thumbs up for your handy joke, classic N humour!
Too good to pass up!

 

[Gorgrim]

I think that certain people that are considered a 'genius' would require 3 or 4 very highly developed functions instead of simply one exceptionally high one. The various functions operating together to an extremely advance extent is what enables the individual to think creatively. Yes, Ne exceptionally high alone may allow very innovative thinking, but with other highly developed functions to support it, the effectiveness of it becomes profound. For example, an individual could have high Ti to analyze subjects deeply and a high Ne to be capable of approaching the subjects from numerous angles. Your approach becomes far superior with multiple high functions.

I reckon a healthy genius naturally develop functions quicker than the average person. well, it's kinda obvious tho I guess. I just don't think geniuses are geniuses because they have developed minds but rather that they develop them faster.

I often hear amazing perception together with genius, and that is properly true. You do need to develop 2nd and 3rd and fourth functions to become a 'better' human, and you can use them all to be sucessful. If you can practice your feelings, and great perception, aswell as your thinking process.

 

[del]

I really relate to chocolate here.

I have a great deal of training in mathematics too, and math is probably the most purely Ti-driven discipline in existence. I'm also a bio anthropology major, though, so that's balanced it out. But I do think that my education has artificially boosted my Ti, because as a kid I was anything but the "logical" one.

That, and I was an only child. I think that's raised my general "ambidexterity" a lot.

In either case, it's sorta hard for me to totally identify with either INTP or ENTP types. For some mysterious reason I have a REALLY strong Te as well, and so you can throw ENTJ up there too.

I mean, from ENTP-mode, I love people, I'm in a better, more clear state of mind when I have a group to collaborate with, and I'm genuinely not drained by interaction with them. But I have those strong INTP tendencies, and if someone seems like they're not reciprocating and offering anything back, I have no trouble doing it by myself, and I won't seek social stimulation if I can intuitively feel there's not going to be any "synergy." I also randomly have weird Te-driven empirical/results oriented logic, and can be sort of a hardass sometimes.

It's difficult to put oneself in a box, but on the other hand, people aren't "types" either.

I identify with INTPs on nearly every level, but the ENTPs I've been exposed to are much more stimulating.

It's the other way around for me. I come here on defense mode because compared to ENTP.org, you guys are a LOT more rigorous in your analysis and criticisms. But I enjoy that, it helps clarify my thoughts. On my own, this is sort of how I work: "Idea! Idea! Ide -- no, scratch that! Switch to logical mode, briefly criticize! Wait, thought of something else before that was finished! Random connection! Stupid joke! Exit."

 

[sagewolf]

Not sure about my Ne, but my F functions are far more developed then they should be, by MBTI theory. In fact, it often seems as if my Fi is my inferior function and my Fe is my tertiary (although Ni and Si have their debilitating and annoying moments). This might be because since I found out about the type theory, I've been trying to strengthen them. I like my Ti, but I want my Fe/i to be stronger too, so I put effort into them.

My Ne though... Nope. Strengthen the Ni, keep the Ne strong, and then I'll just live in my own little fantasy world. The S functions can lag behind. They'll be fine. I think.

 

[cheese]

ENTPs are so fun!

Sagewolf:
My F is all wrong too. I think the thing to do here is just concentrate on what we use during decision-making, because that's the main basis for distinction.

 

[hopefulmonster]

I think that certain people that are considered a 'genius' would require 3 or 4 very highly developed functions instead of simply one exceptionally high one. The various functions operating together to an extremely advance extent is what enables the individual to think creatively. Yes, Ne exceptionally high alone may allow very innovative thinking, but with other highly developed functions to support it, the effectiveness of it becomes profound. For example, an individual could have high Ti to analyze subjects deeply and a high Ne to be capable of approaching the subjects from numerous angles. Your approach becomes far superior with multiple high functions.

Splinter skills!

 

[chocolate]

@ del: It's been a while since you posted, but somehow I missed a lot of posts here. It is crazy how much I relate to everything you say.

@ cheese: Yes we are!

 

[Concojones]

I can relate to those saying that they don't entirely fit into their type.

For instance, INTP describes me amazingly well, but still feels a little sterile for me (but I haven't investigated the MBTI theory sufficiently to pinpoint the exact deficiencies). Noteworthy is that in some situations I become a ENTP, even with the typical ENTP weaknesses (situations: with certain very good friends, and that one time when I co-founded an online community - could it be the safety aspect these have in common?).

 

[mathy]

(Yes wonderful in the true sense of the word. It's so much fun, and so creative, and there are so many directions you can go! It's a world of beauty and precision and ambiguity and elegance and depth and the unexpected and always something new...and connections everywhere!)

I know, isn't it great? Can't wait to learn more...

I really relate to this thread, but no one here seems to be quite in my predicament. I knew there was something... off, about the INTP profile. I can relate to it in a lot of ways, but I feel like there was a lot missing. Part of that, like you chocolate, is that I feel a lot more extroverted than most true introverts I know. I actually really enjoy the company of others. I don't always talk all the time (although I've been known to be a jabberbox), but I like being around people. I like watching, yes, but I also like to be part of the action. I don't feel exhausted after being with people either. And actually, I like large groups of people for some reason. And strangers. Oh, and collaborations with other intellectuals about things (books/music/science/math whatever) I really enjoy. I usually score 50/50 on E/I if I have a choice of middle answers (if I have to pick, I don't ever feel strongly about either, and end up choosing at random).

Anyway, there's a lot more... like, I can be very detail oriented at times, some would call me a perfectionist, but at the same time I am VERY absent minded. How can you be an absent minded perfectionist...? It's not easy, heh. Also, I enjoy cleaning sometimes because it kind of relaxes me (I mean, I'm kind of messy but it gets to a point where I can't stand it anymore--I feel better when everything's clean).

Onto the numbers!

My Ti is the highest, but I have about 4 functions below that that are very close (at least, according to some tests I've taken). The ones I wrote down were: Ti=19, Fi & Ne=14, Ni=13, Se=12 (Fe, Si, and Te are all around 4-5). My Se is quite high, which seems odd after reading about the order of others on this forum's preferences.

I can feel that I use my Fi, Ni, and Se much more than other NT's would. I don't always act on them, but I definitely consider how something makes me feel (according to things I value, determining worthy causes), and I don't ignore my insticts. I know I use Ni a good portion of the time: "Foreseeing implications and likely effects without external data; realizing "what will be"; conceptualizing new ways of seeing things; envisioning transformations; getting an image of profound meaning or far-reaching symbols". Ni might be the reason for my feelings of beauty and awe I get from the connectedness of everything (math/physics/biology/chemistry...is all in sync by some amazing mystery) and what else can be learned from seeing the relationships.

I actually quite enjoy the Se function "Experiencing the immediate context; noticing changes and opportunied for action; being drawn to act on the physical world; accumulating experiences; scanning for visible reactions and relevant data; recognizing what is" -- I find beauty in the world. In everyday, simple things. I see things that need to be changed, could be changed, I notice sounds, smells, etc immediately. I trust experiences to an extent, especially in an area I'm not as familiar with. I wonder if this has something to do with sense of direction? And why I tend to be tidier (and like decorating my house! )?

Also, somewhere there's art in there... I love art. I'm awesome at rendering, and I enjoy conceptializing my art--although this is probably partly an INTP thing.

Anyway. Sorry to bore you all to tears, but this was helpful for me to write out. I've just found it very hard to pigeonhole myself into ONE MBTI category.

If anyone who knows more about the different cognitive functions than I do, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Jennywocky]

I did develop my primary deeply but around people I only used Ne (because it never drew ire like Ti could -- Ti would put me in lots of conflict with blind stupid people in my life whom I couldn't get away from), and because Ne was flexy and I didn't like getting hemmed in, a lot of my behavior has been based on Ne. Basically the first thing people ever knew about me is that I was creative and imaginative... and when they got to know me, they realized I was very smart... but that always came second.

I'm not anything like an extrovert (I can seem that way around people I know, but I always get exhausted if I go too long, NOT more fueled up, and I crash)... but I realized yesterday that I spent a lot of my life determining what to do next by the possibilities I could discover and trying to chase them down, rather than calculating the most rational thing to do via and then trying to make that happen.

Anyway, I've seen other INTPs do this -- develop Ne as their social-interaction and world-dealing tool and actually let it dictate their behavior. I've gotten some more balance in the last few years and actually let my Ti come out a lot more into the real world, to my benefit.

 

[XIII]

When you get to a certain point... all previous assumptions become void, all models disintegrate.

If I were to try and resurrect the scattered corpse of the MBTI model and piece it's mutilated organs together so that it somewhat resembled me, I would say:

When I was 13-14, I used Ti almost exclusively. I often reverted to Fe under stress, to the extent that it became quite developed. I had to develop various feeling/sensing functions in response to fairly constant threat.

When I was 16-17, my Ne kicked in and almost overtook my Ti. It's been developing ever since, and... well, read my posts if you want to know. It's how I tend to interact with others, although I modify it slightly when I want to fuck those others.

Seemingly as a result of my personality change work (but it may not be a causal relationship), Ni became very developed very quickly when I was 17-18. It's almost the strongest function now, even though I didn't use it before. Ni and Ne working together is interesting, to say the least. Waking has become stranger than sleeping.

With regards to sensing... I'm an odd case. I sometimes become very disconnected from my body, but just as frequently feel overwhelming sensory bliss. These episodes started occuring when I was 16, studying QiQong. They have been frequent since, and I can make them my basic mode of experience if I put a little effort into it. When they happen, I become far more sensitive to sensory stimuli and the general environment than... anybody. I can, almost at will, live in a sensory-sexual-social world which bears no resememblance to anythng I've read about NTs. There's a split: most of the time, I'd be similar to other NTs in terms of physical disconnection. At other times (a significant number and length of times) I move completely into the present, become hypersensitive to sensory stimuli, and become a God in be... I'll stop there

Much of this is probably beyond the scope of the MBTI, though. There are specific practices which anybody of any type can do to develop such sensory awareness. It arose spontaneously for me, but such episodes have a specific place in many systems of spiritual/mystical exploration, and no place in the MBTI. Ni... I don't know. I think that much of my personality change work may be simlply a framework I'm using to facilitate the (atypical) devlopment of a function which is/was going to get stronger no matter what. An extreme expression of an extreme shift in internal processes, perhaps.

---------------

I also seem to have 'functions' which others just don't have . They may be a result of aborted schizophrenia, or some other kind of madness which tried to strike me but ended up being turned to my advantage. Or perhaps imagination just trumps the sterile, verbal definitions of TyeNyeFyeFeeFoFum.

Why won't the mutilated limbs and rotting heart make a living human?
Why won't he move? Why won't he talk?
Because, grasshoppers, you cannot construct a person, or his psyche, from various combinations of 8 phrases and 16 linguistic categories.

 

[echoplex]

I also seem to have 'functions' which others just don't have . They may be a result of aborted schizophrenia, or some other kind of madness which tried to strike me but ended up being turned to my advantage. Or perhaps imagination just trumps the sterile, verbal definitions of TyeNyeFyeFeeFoFum.

hmmm, it's interesting to consider other functions. Like, I think I have introverted insanity (Ii) meaning that I'm able to hide how crazy I am quite well. I feel bad for those with Ie. I'm also lucky to have Vi (introverted violence) which helps keep me out of jail by focusing my violent tendencies inward. I do occasionally extrovert my hate (He) though, meaning that I often hate the world.

When I was 16-17, my Ne kicked in and almost overtook my Ti. It's been developing ever since, and... well, read my posts if you want to know. It's how I tend to interact with others, although I modify it slightly when I want to fuck those others.

From what I've read and my own experience, this seems to be a common theme for INTPs. Around 16 is also when my Ne kicked in. It then went into overdrive about a year or two ago. I'm now convinced it may be my strongest function (except for He), especially when I'm in comfortable situations. If I wasn't so shy I'd think I was an ENTP. (del's description of his thought process reminds me of my own.)

 

[zephryi]

17, and I'd agree with the Ne kicking in (though interacting with mostly Ne dominant people can't hurt XD); I used to have to think out everything before I'd hazard a question, guess, or answer, but this year I've been willing to throw out bits of ideas and try to connect them together while talking and see how the teacher or other students or my friends pick up the pieces that have connections that I didn't have thought out yet. Considering I used to almost never speak up, it's been kinda startling, but enjoyable, especially since teachers like students that speak out more and are on topic.
--

It seems to me, that perhaps the 16 types structure is very limiting, and perhaps the MBTI would be much approved by using the dominant function, perhaps tied together with the secondary and their interaction. I mean, the archetypal descriptions using the theoretical order of the functions is often pretty correct from what I've read here, but it doesn't take into account things that could effect the strength of functions/ possibly natural individual's deviations that don't fit into theory. Like, for the former, if you have a very strong Se parent who was always scolding you and punishing you for not noticing things that needed to be cleaned up or fixed, and you learned that appearance was very important when you were little, then I'm sure that you would adjust to notice things and end up with an Se stronger than a typical INTP. It wouldn't be very strong, but it would be a presence, I'd think...

Perhaps I'm overexaggerating the effects of environment on personality, thinking about it, but the point is, I think using less functions would allow more room for the individual; without worrying about how the tertiary and fourth functions interact, it'd be easier to see the main functions/interaction which is really what seems to determine type.

Right. Not to be a bit off topic or anything.

 

[mathy]

Like, for the former, if you have a very strong Se parent who was always scolding you and punishing you for not noticing things that needed to be cleaned up or fixed, and you learned that appearance was very important when you were little, then I'm sure that you would adjust to notice things and end up with an Se stronger than a typical INTP. It wouldn't be very strong, but it would be a presence, I'd think...

Interesting point, and probably explains my predicament pretty well. I had an ISFJ mother (who did exactly as you stated above--exTREMEly nit picky about cleaning and orderliness), and my Se is much stronger than most INTPs.

 

[The Fury]

My sensing and juging attributes are quite well developed. I would also say that I'm a bit more extroverted that most INTPs, even though my MBTI report showed my I at nearly 100%.