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Patriarchy and the 5 Monkeys Experiment

Cognisant

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This experiment is commonly depicted as a parable on the danger of unquestionable traditions, and "tall poppy syndrome" or "crab mentality" when the community hinders individual achievement out of jealousy. These are not entirely invalid interpretations but it's worth remembering the monkeys being attacked by their peers aren't the victims of jealousy but rather being prevented from causing a disaster. If being sprayed with water wasn't sufficiently worse than the reward of obtaining the bananas all the monkeys would just rush up the ladder heedless of the water, indeed I'm confident this has never been anything but a thought experiment because I'm confident that's exactly what would happen.

Anyway, consider the perspective of the five monkeys that never climbed the ladder, they know not to climb the ladder or else they'll be beaten and they know not to let others climb the ladder, but none of them know why, the rule continues to exist even though the reason why it exists has been lost to time. Perhaps years later the monkeys have reproduced and one of their offspring goes to climb the ladder and the elders watch it, they know it shouldn't do that but stopping it would mean beating a child to enforce a seemingly pointless rule so either out of laziness or curiosity they allow the young monkey's fate to take its course.

The hypothetical bananas have likely long rotted away by this point but as metaphorical bananas they're still fine and tasty, a metaphor for a reward made taboo by tradition, which in other circumstances could be something other than bananas. For example prior to the 1960s women held very little authority in society, the prevailing wisdom was that they were emotional, irrational and childish, wholly ill-suited for men's work much less authority over a working man.

What a crazy backwards way of thinking, of course we know better now...


The metaphorical bananas may still be as appealing as ever, but if they're still they're then so is the hose and now we're being reminded why women were purposefully and systematically excluded from the workplace and positions of power, i.e. the Patriarchy.
 

onesteptwostep

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I think when it comes to societial perceptions like these, it's best to let time be the judge of things. When 'feminists' grow old and without child, the ones who matched up and had kids will have certain perceptions towards these females. I think as of now, there really is no mechanism where these activists will take heed to. They aren't going to listen to their own generation, or any generation before them. As time passes and newer generations arise, the media and cultural landscape they will come to own will be the judge of what their forebearers have done.

If the studies that say, as a society becomes more egalitarian, the gender roles are deepened is true, then society will naturally progress towards that end.
 

Cognisant

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Imo there's two ways this can go, the first is that men en masse discover religion and form a new powerful conservative voting block. This is how some formerly liberal democratic countries in the Middle East reverted back to theocracy and Sharia law.

The second is simply a continuation of what we're seeing, increasing lawlessness as an overworked and undersupported police force is forced to prioritise who and what they protect. Civilised society reverting back to the Wild West days when everyone carried a gun for their own protection because outside of town or the immediate presence of the sheriff you're on your own.

In such a world being a big strong man that can tell homeless meth addicts to get off their property suddenly has value again.
 

Cognisant

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The feminists are right about one thing, men are violent, inherently so, the instinctual response of a good natured man seeing a woman spat on and threatened with rape is to lay the fucker out and if he cracks his head on the pavement and dies well that's just what happens when someone fucks around and finds out.

Up until recently we have enjoyed a relatively peaceful and civilized society because men are violent, because all men knew this violence to be an unspoken omnipresent truth, that civilized society has standards and those standards are enforced. Every kingdom, every empire, every great nation was born of the violence of man, it is no coincidence that the greatest civilizations throughout history have always been those with the greatest capacity for violence.

When that woman was spat on and threatened there were no doubt other men there, men who did nothing, because they were afraid, but afraid of what? Afraid of the perpetrator, afraid of getting hurt, maybe a little, but that fear is but nothing compared to the gut-wrenching terror of being attacked by women.

The man who does nothing is blameless, because men and women are supposedly equals he is not obligated to defend her, he cannot be blamed for not putting himself at risk. At least no other man would blame him and no woman who did would be taken seriously because the very idea that another woman might come to the first one's defense is so absurd it's not even up for discussion, so who are they to cast shame? Hypocrites.

But the man who intervenes risks being crucified (metaphorically) afterwards even if he did nothing wrong, based solely on the presumption that he might have done something wrong or that his good deed might have ulterior motives or some other bullshit.

Where have all the good men gone?
They're in hiding, and misandry under the guise of feminism put them there.
 

onesteptwostep

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I lived in two of the biggest metropolises so I'll try to explain the mindset... (in Seoul and Tokyo) Typically you feel that it's just not your responsibility, and that there are institutions that deal with this kind of stuff professionally. I think if you lived in a town or a smaller city, people might be more engaging, but when you live in a place that has a population density of like 17 thousand people per square kilometer (Seoul) or 6k people per km^2 (Tokyo), people aren't going to be suddenly engaging, unless the area that you're in is some kind of leisure area that's aways from the population center. People in big metropolises also generally are foreign to aggression like that.
 

scorpiomover

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Watched the video. The first bit, about the monkeys picking on the monkey who climbed the ladder, because they have a neural association between a different monkey climbing the ladder and them getting sprayed with cold water, is Pavlovian conditioning. But Pavlov's first experiments were with dogs. So the first point is about all animals.

The 2nd point, about the monkeys giving up, is also Pavlovian, because they associate climbing the ladder themselves, with being beaten up.

The 3rd point, that the replaced monkeys tried to climb the ladder, is also Pavlovian, because they have an association between the bananas and food, and they lack an association between climbing the ladder and pain.

The 4th point, that the replaced monkeys also beat up any monkey that tried to climb the ladder, is NOT Pavlovian, as they don't have an association between another monkey climbing the ladder and pain.

Monkeys are also generally believed to not be capable of remembering rules they got from other monkeys, or they could be taught to do menial tasks like bring you tea and cook your breakfast, like Cornelius.

So there's no way that they would pass on such rules to each other.

Monkeys could learn by imitation, as in "monkey see, monkey do". This is an evolutionary adaptation that humans use: "if you are in the jungle, and want to know what foods to eat, eat the foods that the living monkeys eat, as the ones who ate poisoned foods, died."

Monkeys could also imitate other monkeys in their social group, as a form of team-bonding. The stronger the team, the more they co-operate, and the more likely they will work together to survive, and thus, the more chance of their tribe surviving.

This experiment is commonly depicted as a parable on the danger of unquestionable traditions, and "tall poppy syndrome" or "crab mentality" when the community hinders individual achievement out of jealousy.
That sounds like when Sheldon Cooper said he was beaten up in school because the kids were jealous of his intelligence and intellectual achievements.

When his mother replies that he wasn't being beaten up because of that, we all laugh, because we know that people like him usually get beaten up because they regularly say things that are incredibly offensive.

But it makes the Sheldon Coopers of this world feel good, and avoids them having to face the guilt and shame of offending others, and avoids them facing up to their ego and admit they're not superior beings and just be happy with who they are.

Anyway, consider the perspective of the five monkeys that never climbed the ladder, they know not to climb the ladder or else they'll be beaten and they know not to let others climb the ladder, but none of them know why, the rule continues to exist even though the reason why it exists has been lost to time.
Perhaps years later the monkeys have reproduced and one of their offspring goes to climb the ladder and the elders watch it, they know it shouldn't do that but stopping it would mean beating a child to enforce a seemingly pointless rule so either out of laziness or curiosity they allow the young monkey's fate to take its course.
This is just the way evolution works in the real world. We see this all the time in software. It's much cheaper, quicker and more reliable, to use an existing operating system or an existing framework, than to try to invent your own.

The hypothetical bananas have likely long rotted away by this point but as metaphorical bananas they're still fine and tasty, a metaphor for a reward made taboo by tradition, which in other circumstances could be something other than bananas. For example prior to the 1960s women held very little authority in society, the prevailing wisdom was that they were emotional, irrational and childish, wholly ill-suited for men's work much less authority over a working man.

What a crazy backwards way of thinking, of course we know better now...
If we knew better, we wouldn't blame the monkeys, and we wouldn't blame feminists.

The metaphorical bananas may still be as appealing as ever, but if they're still they're then so is the hose and now we're being reminded why women were purposefully and systematically excluded from the workplace and positions of power, i.e. the Patriarchy.
It sounds like you're wondering how to overcome the issue of dominance in evolution, when dominance isn't the most optimal of solutions.

The answer is quite simple: according to evolution, the dominant trait continues, until another evolutionary adaptation occurs randomly, which is more advantageous to the individual than the dominant trait. Then the individual reproduces more than the others, until his genes and traits become dominant.

In other words, if you want to change the system, simply have more kids than the other people, and make sure your kids, and your grand-kids, and all your descendants breed more than the average.
 

ZenRaiden

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why women were purposefully and systematically excluded from the workplace and positions of power, i.e. the Patriarchy.
I view women as having set of assets that males sometimes don't have.
In some ways they can be like men and in some ways only women can be women.
I approach this from simple perspective.
I ask myself "If I had a daughter would I want here to be her self?"
The answer is yes. If women thus have assets they should have a society that promotes and develops them and benefits them both the individual and society.
The idea of crushing female spirit by telling them they can't do x is not something I agree with.
The only thing I am still hesitant of is females in military.
I think if it comes to females in defending homeland I agree they should be trained to do so, but when it comes to offensive I think they should be excluded.
Also I love this vid.

The way I see it, our human skills, abilities, and qualities are emergent properties.
But we humans require environment and time to develop them.
 

dr froyd

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interesting experiment, except it's all made up

besides that i didn't understand a single thing from OP, is this some sort of stream-of-consciousness performance art?
 

Cognisant

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Is there something you would like me to clarify or are you just complaining about your inability to understand?
 

dr froyd

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lol sorry, i just don't understand what's the connection between the experiment and feminism, patriarchy etc
 

Cognisant

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The 5 monkeys experiment demonstrates how traditions form, to say nothing of whether those traditions are good or bad, and how the origins of those traditions are readily lost to time.

Traditionally women had very involvement in politics and governance as they were considered ill-suited for such things. This has been the prevailing consensus of civilizations the world for all of recorded history and the notable exceptions to this, when women did end up in positions of power, those civilizations seemingly always collapsed within a century.

We may forget why our traditions exist but if we forget our traditions it seems we will soon be reminded.
 

dr froyd

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im confused af, you seem to be arguing for the opposite of what the experiment was supposed to show?

the (supposed) experiment illustrates that norms can remain despite the original conditions no longer being present. I.e. the monkeys are acting on beliefs that are objectively wrong. But you are saying the beliefs are actually correct after all?
 

Cognisant

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At what point exactly was it stated that the monkeys would not be sprayed with cold water again if they tried to climb the ladder?

Please do enlighten me why I'm objectively wrong.
 

onesteptwostep

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I don't understand, therefore, it must be dumb.

Kids these days..
 

dr froyd

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At what point exactly was it stated that the monkeys would not be sprayed with cold water again if they tried to climb the ladder?

Please do enlighten me why I'm objectively wrong.

wait so you actually think the point of the experiment was that it's good that the monkeys learned certain behaviors purely from social cues?

clearly the point is that the monkeys are conditioned to remain stagnant in a self-reinforcing social environment where they are prevented from exploring opportunities regardless of whether their beliefs are objectively true.
 

dr froyd

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I don't understand, therefore, it must be dumb.

Kids these days..

lol i can imagine you would be one of the monkeys who would continue to believe you'd get sprayed
 

Cognisant

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wait so you actually think the point of the experiment was that it's good that the monkeys learned certain behaviors purely from social cues?
No my point is that traditions exist because they were created to serve a purpose, that purpose may or may not remain valid even after the reason why the tradition was created has been long forgotten. I'm not saying all traditions are valid or that all traditions are invalid, rather that we cannot presume to know which are valid or not without testing them and so far the evidence show that allowing women into politics and governance was a terrible mistake.
 

onesteptwostep

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dr froyd

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wait so you actually think the point of the experiment was that it's good that the monkeys learned certain behaviors purely from social cues?
No my point is that traditions exist because they were created to serve a purpose, that purpose may or may not remain valid even after the reason why the tradition was created has been long forgotten. I'm not saying all traditions are valid or that all traditions are invalid, rather that we cannot presume to know which are valid or not without testing them and so far the evidence show that allowing women into politics and governance was a terrible mistake.
ok I see. I still think that's quite an alternative interpretation of that experiment, but regardless...

my 2 cents on women as politicians would be that, at least statistically, women tend to favor socialism more than men. Which makes sense from a biological perspective; throughout history men had to compete and take risks in order to "survive" genetically.

i suspect that one of the reasons socialism, environmentalism, social justice, etc have gained such momentum the last 10 years or so is an overall feminization of politics.

socialism, of course, always results in inefficient allocation of resources and the eventual underperformance of the economy
 

dr froyd

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I don't understand, therefore, it must be dumb.

Kids these days..

lol i can imagine you would be one of the monkeys who would continue to believe you'd get sprayed

I don't understand this chicken stratch, someone tell me what this thing is saying.
was that an attempt at an insult? if yes, very cute.

lol i don't really have a beef with you onstep, i make snarky comments when im underslept
 

onesteptwostep

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I don't understand, therefore, it must be dumb.

Kids these days..

lol i can imagine you would be one of the monkeys who would continue to believe you'd get sprayed

I don't understand this chicken stratch, someone tell me what this thing is saying.
was that an attempt at an insult? if yes, very cute.

lol i don't really have a beef with you onstep, i make snarky comments when im underslept

That's a very poor attempt at an apology. Don't expect people to be understanding when you aren't giving the same kind of respect. We live in a society.
 

ZenRaiden

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positions of power, those civilizations seemingly always collapsed within a century.
This was because women could not match physical strength of men and politics and war used to be a single domain. Its also hard to breastfeed a kid while screeching on the battle field and drumming the war drums. Man and women in the past were just being practical.
Today this is not the case, though women still have better chance of having kids while not in grip of deadly profession like military or firemen or policemen.
Not that they can't do these jobs. But orphans have very bad outcomes in life and we know that.
I think traditions used to be very beneficial, but sometimes we stick to traditions mindlessly without looking at cost and benefit.
 

dr froyd

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I don't understand, therefore, it must be dumb.

Kids these days..

lol i can imagine you would be one of the monkeys who would continue to believe you'd get sprayed

I don't understand this chicken stratch, someone tell me what this thing is saying.
was that an attempt at an insult? if yes, very cute.

lol i don't really have a beef with you onstep, i make snarky comments when im underslept

That's a very poor attempt at an apology. Don't expect people to be understanding when you aren't giving the same kind of respect. We live in a society.

i don't give two turds what your standard for an attempt at an apology is

besides, aren't you supposed to turn the other cheek, the good christian that you are? why tf are you getting all testy on me
 
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