Paradox of misery

[BurnedOut]

If empiricism allows examination of causality, why is it that misery cannot be largely eliminated at least at an interpersonal level?

Take for example empathy and altruism. If real selflessness although rare but still exists, why is it that many people with good intentions are unable to influence the ones who are eventually leading to their own doom? If my friend is trying to run a drug business in police residential accomodation and I am trying hard to stop him from axing his own toe, morality and ethics would not vindicate me because I am apparently misappropriating his free will. However, simply influencing another's action does not equal to free will's violation rather the functional fixedness over application of it for achieving a predetermined end. If people have already 'predetermined' their own fate, is it ever possible to even think of eliminating misery? Or is it the pervasive aphorism that dog's tail is always crooked?

I don't believe people are capable of consciously repeating similar patterns. Some of them can be genuine victims of circumstances - being born to a beggar in an Indian slum but the more privileged ones easily yield themselves to analysis.

How is it that a layman only is fine with analysis when it is 'faceless' and not when it is personal? We would all predict the life of a slum stoner but won't accept the predictions of the slum stoner even when he is God telling you your fate.

 

[Cognisant]

If you want to know the face of God you must look at reality with unyielding eyes, don't flinch, don't blink, don't turn away, it will hurt more than staring into the sun but what did you expect?

Look at reality with unyielding eyes and you will see that although we exist we are not the center of the universe in either a literal or metaphysical sense. The universe does not revolve around us, it neither rewards virtue nor punishes evil, nobody deserves to be born in a slum just as nobody deserves to become a billionaire.

It's painful to look at God because we are prideful and the face of God is humbling, because of course it is, what did you expect?

Call it "God" or the "Void" or whatever you want, it's reality, it is what is and to see reality for what it is without the protection of your self assuring preconceptions is to be humbled, uncomfortably so.

People are just clever animals and a lot of them aren't all that clever, indeed we are ourselves less in control of ourselves than we like to think. Ask anyone what they ought to be doing and they know, but they're likely not doing it, certainly not all of it, and they know this is to their own detriment. If you press them they'll make up excuses but they've never really thought about it, they never decided not to do the things they know they ought to do, or keep doing the things they ought not be doing.

They are compelled by their feelings, their base impulses, and as far as pleasure and pain direct them they take the path of least resistance.

We're all just robots made of meat.

 

[scorpiomover]

If empiricism allows examination of causality,

David Hume pointed out that empiricism only gathers data. It's rationalism that tells you what that data means.

why is it that misery cannot be largely eliminated at least at an interpersonal level?

Lack of understanding of human reality. Different humans tend to have the same problems but at different times, which normally means that each human's personal problems fit into 2 categories:

(1) Personal problems that the person can solve themselves quite easily within a reasonable duration of time. Since they are already problems for the person, the person is highly motivated to solve them, and so they are solved very quickly.

(2) Personal problems that the person cannot solve themselves quite easily within a reasonable duration of time, that some people in the world would find very easy to solve.

If we all help only ourselves with our personal problems, then #1 gets solved easily and quickly, but #2 remains for a very long time, causing misery for a very long time.

If we all help each other with our personal problems, by finding out what those problems are, finding those who are good at solving those problems, and then encouraging and supporting them to solve those problems, then #1 & #2 get solved easily and quickly, removing misery very quickly.

 

[birdsnestfern]

Also, I took a health class in the 70's in college that talked about something called 'Addictive Personalities'. It might be just some people are more prone to addictions than others. Its really biological, so it is important to be aware that if you are in that group you'll know it, because you have to work ten times harder to stay out of that drug or alchohol lifestyle than most.

They talked about half life of different drugs and mentioned that even just a few days worth of a drug with a certain half life
(won't go out of your system fast) will very quickly make you dependent on that drug. Valium (Diazapam) was the one he mentioned gets people addicted the fastest. Its one that dr's prescribed for anxiety or heart palpations so you never should take more than two days worth.

I'm mentioning addictive personality just because you can't always help it if you have that type of system, not everyone has that, some people can take drugs and have no problem stopping it when they want to (but the half life is how you know how addictive something is, and a persons disposition will tell you how likely they are to become dependent faster). He used the analogy, most people can hit themselves on the thumb with a hammer and the pain will make them stop, the addictive personality doesn't have that mechanism-the pain doesn't change their habits - they don't know when to stop).

Anyway, look for charts on drug half life if you need more info.

Addictive personality - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Hourglass]

We're all just robots made of meat.

…and, we’re all just meat made of robots.

 

[Hourglass]

If empiricism allows examination of causality, why is it that misery cannot be largely eliminated at least at an interpersonal level?

Since causality is not the same as cause, examination of causality does not mean one can always predict cause with some or any accuracy, and the act of examination in the search to understand can in part be a process which feels like misery because the truth is not always going to evoke feelings that are the opposite of misery: ignorant bliss.

Most people want to be happy without ever being miserable, however human intelligence only advances with truth and knowledge rather than more blissful ignorance.

A person can spend their life in blissful ignorance or blissfully ignorant happiness but at some point something out of a person’s control will happen that creates a need to break out of happiness or a blissful or positive state of existence - What then?

We can only choose to find truth or to find ignorance. One is easier, but which is better?

 

[ZenRaiden]

I think partial solution to misery is giving up control.

 

[Hourglass]

I think partial solution to misery is giving up control.

Freedom is about control of choice and options to some extent. Without freedom we can be miserable.

Misery is not always meant to be solved for. Passion for example involves some effort and things with more effort may sometimes involve more suffering and misery but it does not have to. Misery is a changing state just like happiness. But you can have more or less misery depending on where you want to be in life.

Pretty sure billionaires and popular celebrities are very miserable but they can balance some of it with having influence over money movement or the people around them. But if they were to give up control they would probably be more miserable in some circumstances and less miserable in others.

 

[sushi]

emotion and experience, realization whether true or false.

problems beyond individual to solve.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Dealing with negative emotion is a key process in the loop that motivates behavior.

We are more addicted to scenarios where the reward isn't guaranteed.

Being fruststrated half the time we intend to do something is ingrained in our brain.

We as people give a lot of credit to our own autonomy and ability for self-direction, but the truth is that most people fall into a pattern of their lives that they can manage and tolerate.

It takes a lot of motivation to change, over a long period of time, and many people simply don't have the conceptual tools and inclination to do so.
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Other than this, the cliched stoic would say that we make ourselves suffer more than we have to. That with every stimulus and reaction, we have some space to influence how we react. I think that much is true in most of our automatic day to day interactions.

 

[Black Rose]

Bill Cosby - Brain damage​

The Differences Between ADHD & Bipolar Disorder​

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Family members:

ISFP ADD
Mania ESFP
Angry management ESTJ
Depression ISFJ
Narsicism ESFJ

Me - Schizo Bipolar type, INFP

 

[Hourglass]

Sometimes misery is like your soul as a water balloon: a soul’s sorrows can drip out slowly, stream out faster, or get so built up and pop as a rush of water.

Water can represent anything - tears, creative energy, yearning for something, resentment, etc.

Once it (misery with likeness to water in a balloon) builds up it is good to release it in a healthy way or the energy turns into other things.

Maybe it gets cold and solidifies and hardens like ice, and you carry the weight of it around.

Maybe it boils inside and hurts more because it expands over time.

This all goes back to @ZenRaiden ’s point about “giving up control” - it is kind of like, humans need to release energy in a way that works for them as an individual - everyone is different.

 

[Black Rose]

This all goes back to @ZenRaiden ’s point about “giving up control” - it is kind of like, humans need to release energy in a way that works for them as an individual - everyone is different.

I think that it is whatever is pushing or pulling on you from the inside in whatever node(s) of the network has hold.

So can you give up control?

Only by giving control to something else.

By telling that which has control to unfold the grip in the opposite direction.

Progressive muscle relaxation (PMR) is a relaxation technique that involves tensing and relaxing your muscles one by one. The theory behind PMR is that you cannot experience anxiety symptoms while feeling relaxed and well.

To do PMR, you:

1. Systematically tense particular muscle groups in your body, such as your neck and shoulders.
2. Release the tension and notice how your muscles feel when you relax them.
3. Give yourself 10 to 20 seconds to relax, and then move on to the next muscle group.

 

[birdsnestfern]

*

 

[birdsnestfern]

I think control is something like brakes or a gas pedal on a car and you can interact with things and you naturally know when to inject more control and when to ease off. You feel at ease and happy and creative when the world is at peace or its Summertime in the park and you needn't control anything. Then, you can put more controls on when a situation needs it, perhaps walking at night in an unsavory city on the way to your hotel after class.

You really do have some control - maybe you just don't know you are doing it, but its part of learning to navigate your environment, you might carry an air horn in one hand to scare off animals or people that could attack.
You can use even more sophisticated controls if you need to as well at work, or in daily regimes, or when something isn't working and you need to alter a method. Yes, you can control things, but you have to assess a situation EACH time, for it to be effective. Nothing is ever the exact same situation, every day is different and you can't rely on experience as much as reflexes and 'listening' and openly being a new awareness in each moment.

There is quality control which controls the quality of products you sell, or Audits which work to control the integrity of the business finances, many different kinds of control, but figuring out what controls you need or don't need and using some intuition to help you. Making a point of assessing things often helps you realize, everything you alter in an environment- even your own thoughts can alter the outcome.

To become like a guru as you do menial tasks like washing dishes, realizing EVERYTHING is important, down to the littlest ant.
This is why intuition and awareness is so important to use as if every moment is not the same as the one before.

I think you have many layers of interactions going on too, you have fate, you have will, you have the ability to alter fate, and it all depends on your awareness of a situation. All up until its your time to pass. Thats the ONLY thing you do not have control of, in fact, angels are told not to interfere on your last day, so, you have to let go of control completely then.

In Buddhism, you learn that DESIRE is what causes disappointments, loss, sadness. So, you control sadness by changing or lowering desires and expectations, and just appreciating little things like breathing and being alive. You have zero control of what other people do, only how you react, and what you chose to do. Don't try to control what other people do, just be responsable for your own actions including NOT feeling responsable for others choices.

Actively feel appreciation when you wake up each day, and it raises you out of desire or expectation vortex.

Elevate your sense of yourself so you realize you are a divine spark. This is where you think divine and say or think "I AM".

 

[sushi]

human beings are made to help each other.

In the era of individualism, where everyone has to face his own problems in private, it is inevitable that we become miserable.