own8ge's temporary ban/Hawkeye's complaints about moderation

[BigApplePi]

@Jenny

I wouldn't even say anyone here is intolerant, it's just that some of us aren't bothered by anything whatsoever, while others find some behavior very disruptive to the flow of conversation... which means the issue isn't "tolerance," it's about the level of overall disruption that is acceptable on the forum before mods intervene to restrict a poster's behavior when that poster is unwilling or unable to.

So it's the flow of conversation that matters? It would seem that disruption is disruptive. But question: if the conversation is of import, why can't the conversation be brought back to where it was as soon as the disruption becomes quiescent? How can a disruption have such power? Could it be a revolution is justifiably in order or is it that people unacquainted with the import of the original conversation are easily seduced?

As an example, suppose someone suddenly interrupts with the issue of tribal warfare on planet X. Why is it that such an interruption would not be ignored?

Anyway, we've already had this entire discussion done to death in relation to Blob, so I don't see the need to rehash the same-old, same-old again.

By now there may be new people who aren't that familiar with the aforementioned Da Blob. When others had their say about him, do you recall if HE had his say? Was he rebutted and defeated? If he did not have his say, or any others such as myself or newcomers didn't have their say, the beaten horse would still have signs of life.

 

[Montresor]

It pains me to see you people get caught up in rules, ideals, and group harmony. Use your thinks, not your feels.

You can not control own8ge why the hell are you trying? Control your own damn experience we each get n=1.

 

[BigApplePi]

It pains me to see you people get caught up in rules, ideals, and group harmony. Use your thinks, not your feels.

You can not control own8ge why the hell are you trying? Control your own damn experience we each get n=1.

Perhaps none of us has the control of our feelings and sensations as much as we would like to have. Group disharmony is very difficult to control making rules and bounds necessary as much as this is not ideal.

 

[Jennywocky]

It pains me to see you people get caught up in rules, ideals, and group harmony. Use your thinks, not your feels.

Uhh.... is there a reason why you need to mislabel what has already been explained, so that you can justify your negative feelings towards it?

It's a matter of group dynamics, efficiency, and fairness to everyone. It's not someone's self-indulgent feelings or based on emotions in the way you are suggesting.

Your post comes across as much an emotional outburst as any you are trying to label as such, honestly. That's one thing I hate about these types of discussions, when one side tries to label themselves as being "rational" as a way to put down other views or suggest those views have no validity.

No, you happen to have a "personal value" or "preference" here for complete autonomy without regard for group dynamics or system efficiency; it's in the same category as what you are criticizing, you're not exempt from "values" yourself.

 

[Chad]

Uhh.... is there a reason why you need to mislabel what has already been explained, so that you can justify your negative feelings towards it?

It's a matter of group dynamics, efficiency, and fairness to everyone. It's not someone's self-indulgent feelings or based on emotions in the way you are suggesting.

Your post comes across as much an emotional outburst as any you are trying to label as such, honestly. That's one thing I hate about these types of discussions, when one side tries to label themselves as being "rational" as a way to put down other views or suggest those views have no validity.

No, you happen to have a "personal value" or "preference" here for complete autonomy without regard for group dynamics or system efficiency; it's in the same category as what you are criticizing, you're not exempt from "values" yourself.

Well put.

It is fallacious to conclude that having principles and value equate to emotional unbalance.

We all have emotions we can't deny this (well at least not honestly). However being an intellectual means understanding the meaning behind the emotion instead of just acting on raw feelings without cause.

If someone calls stupid I don't like it and I get defensive naturally. I can't help feeling defensive when someone incorrectly accuses me of being in a demeaning category. However as an intellectual the difference I am not just going to call him dumb back. I will actually take the time and effort to understand why they believe this if there opinion is important to me or just write them off as irrelevant if there opinion is not important.

The problem with writing off someone like Own8ge is that he is far more persistent then most people. So my options become limited to either confronting him about his reasons or leaving the threads were his is trying to engage me. Since I actually get satisfaction out reading, making and responding to threads here I chose to confront reasoning. After his logic fall through he just kind of left and hasn't really bother me since.

I don't have the authority to deal with Own8ge on a forum wide bases however I applaud the mods attempt even if it is long over due again.

I don't believe it will change his take much. After he was banned the first time he just came back angrier.

I honestly would enjoy learning about his thought process since it is obviously different then my own however, it is not worth constantly being insulted by someone.

 

[The Introvert]

Uhh.... is there a reason why you need to mislabel what has already been explained, so that you can justify your negative feelings towards it?

It's a matter of group dynamics, efficiency, and fairness to everyone. It's not someone's self-indulgent feelings or based on emotions in the way you are suggesting.

Your post comes across as much an emotional outburst as any you are trying to label as such, honestly. That's one thing I hate about these types of discussions, when one side tries to label themselves as being "rational" as a way to put down other views or suggest those views have no validity.

No, you happen to have a "personal value" or "preference" here for complete autonomy without regard for group dynamics or system efficiency; it's in the same category as what you are criticizing, you're not exempt from "values" yourself.

Well said Jenny

 

[InvisibleJim]

Uhh.... is there a reason why you need to mislabel what has already been explained, so that you can justify your negative feelings towards it?

It's a matter of group dynamics, efficiency, and fairness to everyone. It's not someone's self-indulgent feelings or based on emotions in the way you are suggesting.

Your post comes across as much an emotional outburst as any you are trying to label as such, honestly. That's one thing I hate about these types of discussions, when one side tries to label themselves as being "rational" as a way to put down other views or suggest those views have no validity.

No, you happen to have a "personal value" or "preference" here for complete autonomy without regard for group dynamics or system efficiency; it's in the same category as what you are criticizing, you're not exempt from "values" yourself.

Yet another Jennywocky 'protect the chosen people who like me' post dressed up as 'efficiency' and 'group dynamics'. No consideration for the allowance of alternate opinions, fairness or common sense and of course actively working as ever to suppress anything which might cause 'conflict' and 'tension' towards those who she likes.

Hiding behind the illusion of society and group dynamics is the cowards way out. Hiding behind the illusion of laziness is someone who shouldn't be in any position to exercise authority as they are by definition incompetent.

But Jennywocky is very well documented for playing favourites to protect people who don't just have an opinion to express but are completely content to steal your car when you aren't looking; for example, protecting Promethea when she and a close friend hacked Typologycentral. Isn't that right Jennywocky?

 

[The Introvert]

Jennywocky's post was a hit on Montresor's obviously ironic hypocrisy.

She was pointing out that the very thing he was saying was subject to his own criticism, thereby negating any value that what he was saying had. The fact that you decide to misunderstand her post (and then continue to try and smear dirt on her? ) is childish and exemplary of your simple-mindedness.

If you're going to bash, at least do so more cleverly.

That being said, I still like Montresor, because he's a lil' ornery bud!

 

[Duxwing]

Jennywocky's post was a hit on Montresor's obviously ironic hypocrisy.

She was pointing out that the very thing he was saying was subject to his own criticism, thereby negating any value that what he was saying had. The fact that you decide to misunderstand her post (and then continue to try and smear dirt on her? ) is childish and exemplary of your simple-mindedness.

If you're going to bash, at least do so more cleverly.

Being a hypocrite doesn't make you wrong, though.

-Duxwing

 

[The Introvert]

Being a hypocrite doesn't make you wrong, though.

-Duxwing

No, but it doesn't make him right either.

In fact, I don't think he's correct in this situation. Being a competent ruler requires a diverse array of skills, not just thinking.

Rules are necessary guidelines to follow; you make rules and then apply the situation accordingly, using leeway for each specific incident. Not the other way around, that doesn't even make sense.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Spoiler

Yet another Jennywocky 'protect the chosen people who like me' post dressed up as 'efficiency' and 'group dynamics'. No consideration for the allowance of alternate opinions, fairness or common sense and of course actively working as ever to suppress anything which might cause 'conflict' and 'tension' towards those who she likes.

Hiding behind the illusion of society and group dynamics is the cowards way out. Hiding behind the illusion of laziness is someone who shouldn't be in any position to exercise authority as they are by definition incompetent.

But Jennywocky is very well documented for playing favourites to protect people who don't just have an opinion to express but are completely content to steal your car when you aren't looking; for example, protecting Promethea when she and a close friend hacked Typologycentral. Isn't that right Jennywocky?

Jenny merely said what many here would have said before anyone else said it. I don't detect anything false or attacking in her demeanor, nor any illusions. The personal and aggressive nature of your response isn't exactly the most constructive thing I've seen in a while. TypologyCentral beef has no place here. Breathe, dude.

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jyy0ra2WcQQ

 

[redbaron]

Yet another Jennywocky 'protect the chosen people who like me' post dressed up as 'efficiency' and 'group dynamics'. No consideration for the allowance of alternate opinions, fairness or common sense and of course actively working as ever to suppress anything which might cause 'conflict' and 'tension' towards those who she likes.

Hiding behind the illusion of society and group dynamics is the cowards way out. Hiding behind the illusion of laziness is someone who shouldn't be in any position to exercise authority as they are by definition incompetent.

But Jennywocky is very well documented for playing favourites to protect people who don't just have an opinion to express but are completely content to steal your car when you aren't looking; for example, protecting Promethea when she and a close friend hacked Typologycentral. Isn't that right Jennywocky?

 

[The Introvert]

Modz are on fire this week!

I'll go away now... *recedes into corner, watching intently*

 

[Jennywocky]

Yet another Jennywocky 'protect the chosen people who like me' post dressed up as 'efficiency' and 'group dynamics'. No consideration for the allowance of alternate opinions, fairness or common sense and of course actively working as ever to suppress anything which might cause 'conflict' and 'tension' towards those who she likes.

Hiding behind the illusion of society and group dynamics is the cowards way out. Hiding behind the illusion of laziness is someone who shouldn't be in any position to exercise authority as they are by definition incompetent.

But Jennywocky is very well documented for playing favourites to protect people who don't just have an opinion to express but are completely content to steal your car when you aren't looking; for example, protecting Promethea when she and a close friend hacked Typologycentral. Isn't that right Jennywocky?

Lol, Jim. Srsly?

You were banned almost two years ago for consistent thread derailing and perpetual antagonism directed at other members (resulting in a final derail spree resulting in a permaban -- there' s a thread over there detailing it all, plus other disciplinary actions you might have received during your tenure), on a forum that you didn't even seem to like and a forum I barely post on myself anymore, and you're still following me around to launch personal attacks and derail other people's discussions?

You're a smart guy; you should have figured out by now I'm not THAT important.

I understand you have a different view of forums, I don't know how many times I've read the same sort of post from you; but from what I've seen, your definition favors yourself exclusively and has little regard for other members. Sorry, I'm going to disagree with you and what I perceive as self-entitlement.

I've also disciplined/banned people I genuinely like; aside from a few sour grapes like you, I was touted by many as "fair" if anything. If Promethea did not seem to receive a punishment that you felt she deserved, it was because an investigation determined she was not involved in whatever way you seem to believe. I can't really say anything else about that, only that I did my best. Apparently you're still bitter about a number of things.

You're going on Ignore at this point, because I don't plan to derail this forum any further responding to your inevitable, relentless rebuttals. The staff here can deal as they see fit.

My advice: Move on. I have.

 

[Montresor]

Perhaps none of us has the control of our feelings and sensations as much as we would like to have. Group disharmony is very difficult to control making rules and bounds necessary as much as this is not ideal.

Yes I agree it is not ideal but what I see through my eyes are persistent efforts to correct unwanted behavior rather than simply suppress and remove.

Also, JW is right that my feelings about the subject are far from ... what is word... rational. Yea.

Let me just say now if you ever want me gone just ban me there is no due process as far as I am concerned. Things like "warnings" don't apply to me.

 

[BigApplePi]

@Montresor

Yes I agree it is not ideal but what I see through my eyes are persistent efforts to correct unwanted behavior rather than simply suppress and remove.

Also, JW is right that my feelings about the subject are far from ... what is word... rational. Yea.

Let me just say now if you ever want me gone just ban me there is no due process as far as I am concerned. Things like "warnings" don't apply to me.

Are you saying you are willing to be banned without putting up any fight? By that I mean if someone wants to ban you, that could be only a vocal one percent. What if the silent 99 percent is okay by you? Secondly if there is some reason for being banned, I would want to look at myself to check out the reasons.

Something along those lines happened to me when a moderator suggested I would be sent to Siberia (I'm not sure what that means but it didn't sound good), if I didn't cool my personal statements about someone (paraphrase). I had a covert theme but didn't quite know how to talk about it without using the given person as an example ... but what the heck. I changed my posting and backed off to think it over.

Now are you saying own8ge is different and doesn't want to change? Well as a member of this forum I would like to weigh in on this. As far as I recall I've always gotten along with own8ge so I haven't been following the trouble the forum has been having with him. I think he would listen to me (my guess). So I'd like to talk to him and see if something can be worked on. Unless I get that chance I won't be satisfied with an outright banning. As far as my experience goes, he has been a valuable person of ideas. I would not like to see him banned any more than I wanted to see Da Blob banned before I could talk to those guys.

 

[TheScornedReflex]

Now are you saying own8ge is different and doesn't want to change? Well as a member of this forum I would like to weigh in on this. As far as I recall I've always gotten along with own8ge so I haven't been following the trouble the forum has been having with him. I think he would listen to me (my guess). So I'd like to talk to him and see if something can be worked on. Unless I get that chance I won't be satisfied with an outright banning. As far as my experience goes, he has been a valuable person of ideas. I would not like to see him banned any more than I wanted to see Da Blob banned before I could talk to those guys.

Own8ge does want to change. Now I am not sure whether I should be talking as if on behalf of him. But he has willingly listened to advice and has actively tried to incorporate it into how he posts. I also agree that he brings new and valuable ideas. He does have his moments where he can go slightly off the rails. But we all can and probably will every now and again. I personally don't wish to see him permabanned.

 

[The Introvert]

I was under the assumption that own8ge being perma-banned wasn't even a question.

He's obviously trying to change, and is open to advice (not to mention, again, that he is a very interesting fellow).

If he were to be perma-banned for something like this, I would be disappointed.

 

[InvisibleJim]

You're going on Ignore at this point, because I don't plan to derail this forum any further responding to your inevitable, relentless rebuttals. The staff here can deal as they see fit.

Oh crivens, a biased typologycentral and intpforum mod who was demodded for some pretty good reasons putting me on ignore because I call her a hypocrite for preaching moderation on a forum.

Considering your lacklustre and corrupt record: Whatever shall I do.

As you are well aware you and some of your friends who are still moderators have played dirty with several members who dared to have alternative opinions on topics you think are important, you then selectively moderate with a bias against them. You openly admitted it and several people have protested openly to enact a level of fairness and have received bans to silence them time and time again.

They example of 'derailing' is the typical comical exaggeration on a forum where people regular derail even type related discussion threads when it suits them demanding people stop posting in them or other such stories.

It's quite amusing because I post on typologycentral everyday, your ban succeeded for all of 4 minutes and twice I've registered spare accounts just to say 'hi' when people have questioned that it can be done.

But that's only besides the crunch point of the point I'm making:

I always like when you give 'sage advice' such as '51% of people have decided so that's what we should do', or 'expediency/efficiency so you should do' some people will always pop up to remind people not to forget just the kind of manipulation you are willing to perform to get that majority you want.

You aren't a wise sage offering profound advise, you're the subtle manipulator who goes to great lengths to obfuscate your agenda.

Hows MacGuffin?

Sometimes it's good to be a 'smart guy' as you say.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

It's quite amusing because I post on typologycentral everyday

Perhaps you should restrict your posting to TC?

*removes the satin cloth covering his banhammer and awaits accusations of bias*



The conflicting positions between the following posts is exactly the sort of thing mods are charged with navigating:

Yes I agree it is not ideal but what I see through my eyes are persistent efforts to correct unwanted behavior rather than simply suppress and remove.

I personally don't wish to see him permabanned.

If he were to be perma-banned for something like this, I would be disappointed.

We work with the interests of the community in mind. Jennywocky (who isn't a mod here and never has been ) already addressed "acceptable disruption." However, there's also a learning curve and a time period within which one can reasonably be expected to accomplish change if either party believes change to be possible. Hence why the "3 strikes" policy is so common throughout human society. Beyond that point things get old fast.

 

[Stent]

Perhaps you should restrict your posting to TC?

*removes the satin cloth covering his banhammer and awaits accusations of bias*

Oh come along, don't make me play the flexible IP game as well, you tease

Perhaps you should go post where I demand if I don't like your viewpoint on other members who are dictating policy?

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Oh come along, don't make me play the flexible IP game as well, you tease

The idea of catch per unit effort comes to mind... Is it really worth it?

 

[Cherry Cola]

It pains me to see you people get caught up in rules, ideals, and group harmony. Use your thinks, not your feels.

You can not control own8ge why the hell are you trying? Control your own damn experience we each get n=1.

Hello there naivety and unwarranted belief in your own complete rationality despite being an animal like the rest of us

 

[QuickTwist]

Is own8ge still banned? I have no idea where I fit into all of this. I just think Own8ge is annoying as hell. Do I think he should be banned? No, because its not even worth it. people like Own8ge will never be able to offend me and I don't know why there aren't more people who can't just let it roll off their shoulders (not saying this is a problem on this forum). I also don't think it is worth it to try and insult someone back with great vengeance and furious anger so to speak (do as I say not as I do).

While I'm sharing my opinion I might as well say that manipulation is one of the most evil things to ever come across the face of this earth, especially if there is lying involved. My view is if you have something to convey there is no reason why you can't tell the truth to the best of your knowledge. Opinions and subjectivity go hand in hand. I'm a stickler for that sort of thing but I don't expect people to take it as seriously as I do.

 

[Hawkeye]

Is own8ge still banned? I have no idea where I fit into all of this. I just think Own8ge is annoying as hell. Do I think he should be banned? No, because its not even worth it. people like Own8ge will never be able to offend me and I don't know why there aren't more people who can't just let it roll off their shoulders (not saying this is a problem on this forum). I also don't think it is worth it to try and insult someone back with great vengeance and furious anger so to speak (do as I say not as I do).

While I'm sharing my opinion I might as well say that manipulation is one of the most evil things to ever come across the face of this earth, especially if there is lying involved. My view is if you have something to convey there is no reason why you can't tell the truth to the best of your knowledge. Opinions and subjectivity go hand in hand. I'm a stickler for that sort of thing but I don't expect people to take it as seriously as I do.

I think it depends on the form of manipulation. Not all manipulation is out of malice and can actually be the better option in a given situation.

For example: Lying to certain people about a surprise birthday party

Also, playing the Devil's advocate can find potential holes in a person's arguments (not to mention probe how they think). If used in the "nice" way, it can help someone strengthen their point.

 

[QuickTwist]

I see what your saying but I would have to disagree. The difference lies in each of our definitions of integrity. Obviously we cannot live in total absence of manipulation but perfection doesn't exist. The best we can do is limit the degree of malice in our manipulation. That being said, I think any time we consciously manipulate something, it is a form cheating IMO. I believe if you are tactical, any manipulation that you would otherwise do would be unnecessary; I cannot stress this last sentence enough.

Again, I am extreme in my approach to what is morally right and don't expect too many people to have the same rules about what is right then I do. I think it is interesting for Hawkeye and myself to have this conversation because on this topic I believe we are total opposites.

 

[Jennywocky]

That being said, I think any time we consciously manipulate something, it is a form cheating IMO. I believe if you are tactical, any manipulation that you would otherwise do would be unnecessary

Sounds like you consider it a violation of each person's autonomy, and that if someone made their case well enough, then there is no reason to manipulate.

 

[Chad]

The question is what constitutes manipulation?

Is simply not telling someone something for there interest manipulation?

It could be consider but were do you draw the line?

 

[Absurdity]

The question is what constitutes manipulation?

Is simply not telling someone something for there interest manipulation?

It could be consider but were do you draw the line?

Wow what a great thread topic...



... hint hint.

 

[QuickTwist]

Sounds like you consider it a violation of each person's autonomy, and that if someone made their case well enough, then there is no reason to manipulate.

Exactly.

The question is what constitutes manipulation?

Is simply not telling someone something for there interest manipulation?

It could be consider but were do you draw the line?

This is not a complete answer but I believe coercion and manipulation are synonymous in this case.

 

[Chad]

hint taken.

 

[Hawkeye]

Without manipulation magic could not happen and ninjas could not disappear.

 

[Jennywocky]

The question is what constitutes manipulation?

Is simply not telling someone something for there interest manipulation?

It could be consider but were do you draw the line?

Wow what a great thread topic...

I need to say right now, that my life would have no meaning if Chad and I were not embroiled in a mutual relationship of personal manipulation and respectful coercion.

Without manipulation magic could not happen and ninjas could not disappear.

OMG. THAT NINJA JUST... VANISHED BEFORE MY EYES!!!

 

[Wolf18]

Where is own8ge, btw? I have not heard from him in quite some time...

SW

 

[Jennywocky]

Where is own8ge, btw? I have not heard from him in quite some time...

SW

he, uh, helped us out with the death chamber in the INTPf High Court of Justice thread... I guess he never came out of the room after making sure it worked...?

OH SNAP.

 

[TimeAsylums]

he, uh, helped us out with the death chamber in the INTPf High Court of Justice thread... I guess he never came out of the room after making sure it worked...?

OH SNAP.

one small step for man...