Open Mindedness the double edged sword

[Jelly Rev]

Open mindedness one of the INTP's greatest gifts, when an idea seems feasible it is analyzed to see if it has any worth. No ideas or worth are brushed aside because it does not fit the INTP's schema. there is always hope and always doubt in an idea.

This ability to constantly warp ideas in the mind with new information has led to some issues. there is no possession of anything, everything moves in a flow. This lack of possession is starting to become a problem. I cannot hold a belief or let a problem b solved by a simpler solution instigating this problem even farther.

I've come to the point in my social life where I've realized what an issue this has become. I cannot move farther socially bc I lack possession of anything. When someone says something offensive to me or of my ideas it doesnt matter. INTP's praise this indifference to attacks on them, it especially pisses off ESFJ's.
But I've come to the conclusion or close to a conclusion that this is not beneficial to the well being of myself.
It's not beneficial bc not defending myself means I am not even in possession of myself. To society this is a lack of respect to myself and is utterly unattractive bc it shows a lack of my "power over reality"(attraction).

Bc of all this I usually have little social power over other ppl and when for some reason its given to me I throw it away, I dont want it. When I see that somehow I have influenced what a person was going to say, or make them change their opinion based on my power of reality over them I feel guilty bc I dont want to possess power over them. I want to observe, but this is not beneficial to myself or ppl around me.

Has anyone else came to this idea?? and has anyone figured out how to be more close minded??

 

[warryer]

When it comes to social matters it gets difficult. It's not easy like when talking about facts.

Something to consider: not defending yourself could be interpreted as a lack of self worth. What about this? Not defending yourself could also be interpreted as an attack you don't deem worthy enough to put in the effort to defend against.

It's your natural state to be indifferent and therefore the easiest route for you to go. You just need to be comfortable with it. If you let other people dictate to you that you should feel this way or that then you have already lost.

When people attack you they aim to get a rise from you; to get under your skin. If you don't react then they look like the asshole. However if they don't stop and keep callling you out do not be afraid to annihilate them with your words.

Also, don't buy into that PUA crap. They are a bunch of fakers. That stuff doesn't work on the REAL good ones.

Bottom Line: Be comfortable with yourself.

 

[downsowf]

I sort of understand but not exactly. Can you give an example? Sometimes I take a position on an issue to play the role of devil's advocate. Are you saying you're indifferent when someone attacks you personally or when someone attacks a position you take (since you don't necessarily "know" the answer)? Or both? Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "social power?"

I don't think it's advantageous to be close minded either. I do possess some moral convictions or "absolutes" where something is either right or wrong and have no trouble expressing those opinions in order to influence other people. I'm not sure if this is the answer you're looking for.

 

[Dapper Dan]

I'm not sure I follow you, either. I get everything you say about being open-minded, but I don't know how that negatively affects your social life.

 

[Jelly Rev]

it negatively affects me in the future.
Most people have beliefs about things and they possess them, they protect them usually with emotions. It creates a being of who they are.

I do not possess beliefs bc they are so rapid to change bc of this open mindedness only truths.
Here is the issue. I know in the future I may want to possess something external(certain job, friends, girl, money, etc) and being so open minded and acting in this way is hindering my future. Being able to form opinion/beliefs about things and emotionally defending them is beneficial to my social world.
It allows for people to create certainty about me as a person thus creating a feeling of comfort friendship etc. this will allow me to possess a greater reality.

I am comfortable with it. it is close to being enlightened or how I would imagine enlightened feeling like but I am preparing for future wants that I may have. I am looking to the future for a more advantageous future.
I am looking for ex. the ability to get hyped up about something extremely bland. Like lets say a football team. People get so into it as if they are somehow part of the team as if they possess some stake in it, they get to revel in their conquest and defeats. I am looking for a way to revel in it as well.

Also, don't buy into that PUA crap. They are a bunch of fakers. That stuff doesn't work on the REAL good ones.

idk where that came from but....on a side note that stuff does work well but I do not use it anymore, I achieved competency and got bored of it. I could follow a schema and be a damn good actor, was an art form.

 

[Minuend]

The fact that they can't get under your skin would rather mean that you have more social power, I'd say. Those who manage to keep a cool head usually get the most respect.

Open mindedness wont hinder people in seeing you as a certain type. Everything you say and do, the way you move and behave, all merge and creates a person. The lack of strong opinions become a trait of that person.

I am comfortable with it. it is close to being enlightened or how I would imagine enlightened feeling like but I am preparing for future wants that I may have. I am looking to the future for a more advantageous future.
I am looking for ex. the ability to get hyped up about something extremely bland. Like lets say a football team. People get so into it as if they are somehow part of the team as if they possess some stake in it, they get to revel in their conquest and defeats. I am looking for a way to revel in it as well.

I see a distinction here, I would rather label this as passion. And passions shouldn't be for anyone else than yourself.

Getting hyped up about ones opinions have no advantage, I'd say. The more emotional attached you are to it, the more rigid you become.

On a general note, are you certain you have identified the correct source of your worries?

 

[EditorOne]

Simply because you've made distinctions between what's important to you and what isn't doesn't mean you're socially stigmatized. While you might not care about being razzed, if someone insisted you act in a way that contravened some principle you've decided is important, you'd pitch a fit, at least inside. A way to shrug off the ankle biters might be to incisively explain why their niggling little concerns are niggling little concerns. Sort of like Winston Churchill when he overheard a stuffy society matron complain he was drunk at a party. The line went, sort of, "Madam, I may be drunk, but tomorrow I'll be sober and you'll still be ugly." Their pushing and needling is ephemeral. Stuff that really matters to you tends to be at the infrastructure level of life, relationships, etc., not out among the trimmings.

Don't take it up head on, in other words; undermine the process. Then you don't have to fire up your indifference over the actual issue, only over its importance.

Like everything else, don't worry about this a whole lot, it will sort itself out. The overall paradigm is that you don't try to fit their paradigm, but carve out a place for yours within their awareness. Whew. Too many words. But as noted above: Be yourself, or you'll be even more comfortable.

Addendum: All of us have, to some extent or another, some much more than others, some genetic hardwiring that makes us yearn to fit into groups. It's a great evolutionary trait, because often small groups are successful where individuals would fail. While this isn't exactly an emotion, it sometimes comes across as one, and it seems to be strongest when we're teenagers. You seem to be sort of wrestling with one way this can play itself out. As always, enough enlightenment to put this into a context might make it more manageable, although I distinctly recall the awfulness of potentially "not belonging" when I was in high school. (I'm not assuming you're in high school, "I'm just sayin'. " )

 

[Secretpilgrim]

Try a little experiment..... For a few weeks, practice a bastardized version of Socratic method in any conversation. Basically, show others the flaws in their ideas, points of view, etc. without out offering an alternative. Just every time they offer an explanation to your observation use it to come up with another observation of a problem in their thinking. It's fun to watch the implosion that comes when you describe all the problems with someone's idea and offer no solutions. It's quite fun. You always leave with the social "upperhand". Seriously... It's a BLAST....

 

[Peeps999]

Try a little experiment..... For a few weeks, practice a bastardized version of Socratic method in any conversation. Basically, show others the flaws in their ideas, points of view, etc. without out offering an alternative. Just every time they offer an explanation to your observation use it to come up with another observation of a problem in their thinking. It's fun to watch the implosion that comes when you describe all the problems with someone's idea and offer no solutions. It's quite fun. You always leave with the social "upperhand". Seriously... It's a BLAST....

I did that to my dad once. He's an ENTJ so every little flaw makes him explode already, but the reaction for this was priceless.

 

[GYX_Kid]

Has anyone else came to this idea?? and has anyone figured out how to be more close minded??

That's not the way to do it- be even more open minded to embrace use of tools for social power, when you might need them. If you don't do it often you might associate any form of authoritativeness with being a dick, but there are tons of gray areas as with everything.

It's not about jumping to defensiveness out of paranoia that someone was insulting you- in fact those hyper-control-loving types definitely have their social weaknesses. They're much less in control of themselves in their own way, and it definitely shows.

For example, some requirements for giving a quality command are

-understanding of the situation's big picture and of the people you're dealing with, so as to be able to communicate full information

-ability to form and articulate the information well

-calm firmness



*Edit:

Being able to form opinion/beliefs about things and emotionally defending them is beneficial to my social world.
It allows for people to create certainty about me as a person thus creating a feeling of comfort friendship etc. this will allow me to possess a greater reality.

idk where that came from but....on a side note that stuff does work well but I do not use it anymore, I achieved competency and got bored of it. I could follow a schema and be a damn good actor, was an art form.

Ohh.
Now I get you.
Yep, I have wanted to be more FJ or Fi with strong genuine standpoints like that before too. It certainly sells, for one thing.
Maybe I emphasized opinions about people more in the past, which was attractive in the right context. Something to think about...good topic

 

[crippli]

and has anyone figured out how to be more close minded??

Make plans.

 

[Jelly Rev]

Try a little experiment..... For a few weeks, practice a bastardized version of Socratic method in any conversation. Basically, show others the flaws in their ideas, points of view, etc. without out offering an alternative. Just every time they offer an explanation to your observation use it to come up with another observation of a problem in their thinking. It's fun to watch the implosion that comes when you describe all the problems with someone's idea and offer no solutions. It's quite fun. You always leave with the social "upperhand". Seriously... It's a BLAST....

I've done it, its roflpalozza. but this does not allow me to social vibe with others and I lose out on potentially positive interactions. I even told him I torture him just so I can create ideas in my head, he didnt like it said I was usin him.

be even more open minded to embrace use of tools for social power, when you might need them. If you don't do it often you might associate any form of authoritativeness with being a dick, but there are tons of gray areas as with everything.

I have done that, I have studied PUA, body language, psychology, etc a lot. I see this as the next step, I see a beneficial tool is to become close minded, at least at times. The problem with doing all of these things Ive learned is the sheer amount of cognitive power it takes.
With being close minded I may be able to reduce my cognitive demands and engage in groupthink something I believe may be near to impossible for an INTP.


note: to all who think this is a worry/depressed/pessimistic thread it is not, My social life is good but I am trying to be more socially comptetent it is a goal of mine. I just like to continually improve upon myself.

 

[GYX_Kid]

Are you saying that closed-mindedness is going to increase your preference for what kinds of attitudes to adopt and what people to spend your time with? It can also just be habit that does that

 

[Jelly Rev]

Are you saying that closed-mindedness is going to increase your preference for what kinds of attitudes to adopt and what people to spend your time with? It can also just be habit that does that

it will allow me to accept simple social attitudes without question, So I do not need to mull over them and make sure they are correct. Mulling over them detaches from the interaction and a loss of gain of social interaction. Of course I could point out the flaws of their attitudes but there is no gain to be had.
An infp told me this once...You may be right 95% of the time but I will win 95% of the time. idk totally how that fits in but it feels like it means somethin

 

[Late2theParty]

I think I get what you're getting at. I have a friend who is very extroverted and believes he's right about everything / knows everything. He isn't / doesn't... but the fact that he boldly walks into social situations and huffs and puffs in the long run opens a lot more doors socially than someone like myself... who just kind of blends in the background. Also, if he feels he's been wronged he throws a bit of a fit about it. It's annoying, but in the long run it kind of helps him out because it makes sure he never get's screwed over... and it makes him appear more alpha male.

It's definitely difficult to get into that mindset for me. It's hard for me to form strong opinions on things because I can usually understand both points of view, and I always wonder if I really have enough information to make a proper decision. Also not really caring about being dominant towards others I think closes a lot of doors for me socially.

I haven't really figured out what to do about this except try to recognize situations where it would really benefit me to act outside of my comfort zone and practice acting accordingly.

Maybe instead of acting 'close minded' Try acting more 'impulsively' without thinking. Maybe practice reacting to people emotionally more.

 

[Zionoxis]

I think my background in debate has somewhat handicapped my ability to be open minded. Though I still believe myself to have the ability, once in an argument, I got into the habit of taking one side and arguing it to the end from that side. Now, while in a debate, I have been accused of being close minded. Thinking back, I am unsure to if that accusation is accurate or not due to the possibility that he could have simply been throwing out the word as a method to vent his frustration in the situation.

 

[Jelly Rev]

I think I get what you're getting at. I have a friend who is very extroverted and believes he's right about everything / knows everything. He isn't / doesn't... but the fact that he boldly walks into social situations and huffs and puffs in the long run opens a lot more doors socially than someone like myself... who just kind of blends in the background. Also, if he feels he's been wronged he throws a bit of a fit about it. It's annoying, but in the long run it kind of helps him out because it makes sure he never get's screwed over... and it makes him appear more alpha male.

It's definitely difficult to get into that mindset for me. It's hard for me to form strong opinions on things because I can usually understand both points of view, and I always wonder if I really have enough information to make a proper decision. Also not really caring about being dominant towards others I think closes a lot of doors for me socially.

I haven't really figured out what to do about this except try to recognize situations where it would really benefit me to act outside of my comfort zone and practice acting accordingly.

thank you, exactly what I've been getting at.

for the time being, being open-minded I have accepted as part of myself, as an identity.