On Cognisant

[fractalwalrus]

Do not reject this fellow. I made a mistake once, and misunderstood the person. Truth is, we need each other. All of us. Without the definition of opposites (whether validated or not), we cannot be. Cog is a valued member of the community, and, right or wrong, their perspective is, enlightening. Part of the overall perspective. I dedicate this to Cog. Discuss.

 

[Hadoblado]

It'd be interested to see how many people have changed their minds in response to Cog's constant arguing over the years.

How did you misunderstand him? And why is it necessary to advocate for his value to the community if he is evidently valued by the community?

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Is this state sanctioned violence against Cog?

Well, Cog can speak for himself, but I mean the center political leaning is eviscerated atm.

And basically the left has been calling anyone who is moderate an ally of the right wing, ever since Jordan Peterson circa 2016.

If you advocate and publicize social agendas that have an impact in political contexts, then you deserve every piece of criticism that comes your way. Period.

The content of what Cog writes to me fits that criteria. At best he can claim he is center left.

America right now is probably what is ideal for such a fellow.

I don't agree with that. I want it to be a little more left. My needs are personally met. It's not about my interest, it's about my investment into the government.

I dont see the need to vilify Cog, but since a lot of what Cog posts are about those 1/400 trans people, or racial profiling, Western imperialist propaganda- I mean, earlier I wrote it: If you advocate and publicize social agendas that have an impact in political contexts, then you deserve every piece of criticism that comes your way. Period.

He basically is operating as a right-wing conservative propagandists.

The political campaign strategist would green light the post he makes. Not like it's his day job. But more like a side hustle.

If there was an analog to him who was a left-wing propagandist, it would be equally egregious. Kinda awkward, so I would deflect by trying to make things humourous.

That's what's I do now, unless I actually find a specific point Cog made interesting for whatever reason.

 

[fluffy]

Cog never attacked me in any way I can say he is making it uncomfortable to be around him. Personally I can say things left wise or have those characteristics and not be seen by his as bad or wrong.

I think it had to do with the temperament he has. He likes confrontation in a good way. It is just easier to get at people on the left for him because it is cultural. If I wanted to push myself on people he would see that and grab at it. That you were not virtue signing in the right way and I don't like it and that I need you to do so. The truth is my left libertarian views cannot be attacked in this way because I allow people to be who they are. If I were pushy then he could attack me. But then Id deserve it and that I don't means he leaves me alone.

I guess it's respect he's looking for in others as opponents. Shake hands and say good fight. As I am not going to give others a reason to think I have the mentality of fighting in that way I think cog just needs more engagement with others socially. It's not a war to him but more like a sport: "I am going to stop people from pushing things on others because I believe people have freedom and right to be respected". This can make people angry but no harm done, being pushed requires pushing back. That's how I see cog.

 

[Puffy]

I don’t have any issues with Cog, he’s been here longer than me and that’s a long time (15 years? Fuck) so he’s a part of the furniture by now.

He can get stuck in a tunnel vision on certain topics sometimes and it’d be nice if they could be contained to one thread at a time.

 

[BurnedOut]

Says the person who is opposed to providing aid based on need, rather than race, and thinks they're entitled to smoke weed on someone else's property

Dude your reductionism makes you sound like a unicellular organism right now

 

[fractalwalrus]

It'd be interested to see how many people have changed their minds in response to Cog's constant arguing over the years.

How did you misunderstand him? And why is it necessary to advocate for his value to the community if he is evidently valued by the community?

1) This would be interesting to see as well. I wonder if we could actually measure all changes of position over time here. I am curious to know how frequently it happens not just from Cog, but from others as well.

2) I'm referring specifically to a recent thread we were in where I misunderstood an argument due to extrapolating from his other points in other threads (an error that is not unreasonable, but sloppy). Last night it probably was not evident to me that he was valued by the community.

 

[fractalwalrus]

f you advocate and publicize social agendas that have an impact in political contexts, then you deserve every piece of criticism that comes your way. Period.

I would not disagree that we should definitely engage all arguments and not go ad hominem. My intent was not to discourage critique, simply to encourage engagement with the points being made. Then again, these points have likely been made and addressed numerous times in the past.

He basically is operating as a right-wing conservative propagandists.

I'd wondered about that myself before. There was a time I thought he was engaging in satire.

 

[fractalwalrus]

I think it had to do with the temperament he has. He likes confrontation in a good way. It is just easier to get at people on the left for him because it is cultural. If I wanted to push myself on people he would see that and grab at it. That you were not virtue signing in the right way and I don't like it and that I need you to do so. The truth is my left libertarian views cannot be attacked in this way because I allow people to be who they are. If I were pushy then he could attack me. But then Id deserve it and that I don't means he leaves me alone.

Ah, if this is the take, then it is a provocative way of deriving discussion. Everyone would benefit from seeing arguments made and then being able to address them properly. It strengthens reasoning.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

㊙️ 道可道 非常道

 

[fractalwalrus]

㊙️ 道可道 非常道

*thumbs up in Brittish*

 

[EndogenousRebel]

He basically is operating as a right-wing conservative propagandists.

I'd wondered about that myself before. There was a time I thought he was engaging in satire.

Ultimately, engaging with conversation with someone with intent to understand, assuming you have an honest interlocutor, is the best way to understand someone's argument.

I don't have the stomach to go on a lot of conservative spaces. I don't think conservatives do either.

Hado and Cog have questionable rapport that questions the "honest interlocutor" part.

I don't get disappointed because I realized a long time ago to rationalize as I have.

These are the arguments, that are closer to what the other "political side" believes. So at the very least, I get the utility of knowing the structure of beliefs a political opponent has

What I haven't done is repeat myself over and over again. Because I expect the same results.

I challenged many people about things they wrote, regarding trans or racial issues, sometimes very abhorrent things, to be then accused myself of saying awful things.

Not just Cog, but others as well.

But I just figured if I didn't change their mind the first time, why bother again?

It is kinda a nuisance. But I guess I don't have the right to not have such a nuisance. And it might broaden my perspective at some point, maybe likely not.

 

[Cognisant]

Propaganda is the pushing of an agenda.

Tell me what agenda am I pushing/serving?
This should be quite simple, you should only need a few words, a sentence at most, perhaps a series of bullet points if I'd pushing several agendas.

Once you've done that tell me why those agendas are objectively false.

If I tell you to stop smoking because it's increasing your likelihood of getting lung cancer that's an agenda, but it's not propaganda, it's the truth or at very least up for debate.

Propaganda is a bad thing because it's not truth, or it's a misrepresentation of the truth to create a false assumption, e.g. a lie by omission.

I don't think I'm a propagandist and I rather resent the label, in fact I think anyone who calls me a propagandist is themselves a propagandist unless they're willing to justify their position.

 

[dr froyd]

take it as constructive criticism Cog, but although i obviously lean right on many political issues i find your stuff narrative-pushing-esque for a simple reason: it doesn't contain much commentary beyond what you get pre-packaged from the current mainstream right-wing commentators. So if it doesn't contain that nor any analysis of the narratives themselves, then then question becomes: what purpose can it have beyond a spreading a certain political viewpoint.

i might be missing something, i haven't read every single thread, but it's the overall impression i get.

 

[Cognisant]

Ok that's fair.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I don't hold anyone to any standard.

People should hold themselves up to standard they feel like.

That said the one post, I forget which and where, about nazis and nationalism was on point. Cog explained the motivations about national socialism in it perfectly.

So I don't really care if most posts are trash as long as there are some like it.

I my self am shit poster, so this might sound like secret agenda, but I fail to see a point to dramatize this forum.

Its a bunch of INTPs yapping to their own tune.

I think we could pick each-others posts ad nauseam.

We are thinkers after all.

The main thing I notice is that thinkers have high shit vs clarity post ratio.

That means for ever lucid moment there is a lot of "pondering the ball" shit.

Either way it takes age and refinement to learn half the shit we think and say is not really that important.

The key point is to move on and learn.

Stagnation is intellectual death.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Maybe we just need more J types here to clear up the garbage.

 

[fractalwalrus]

View attachment 8464

Maybe we just need more J types here to clear up the garbage.

That might pick up some of the substance with the "garbage".

 

[ZenRaiden]

That might pick up some of the substance with the "garbage".

Did not mean to devalue INTPs "garbage" is not garbage, but steering shit towards reality I mean.
We are way to meta.
Thinking about possibilities, eventually means missing eventualities.

 

[fluffy]

That might pick up some of the substance with the "garbage".

Did not mean to devalue INTPs "garbage" is not garbage, but steering shit towards reality I mean.
We are way to meta.
Thinking about possibilities, eventually means missing eventualities.

Diamond in the pile of whatever stuff we have made up, we make up lots of stuff that might be considered useless yet some are hidden gems.

 

[fractalwalrus]

That might pick up some of the substance with the "garbage".

Did not mean to devalue INTPs "garbage" is not garbage, but steering shit towards reality I mean.
We are way to meta.
Thinking about possibilities, eventually means missing eventualities.

Very true. I've butted heads (and other things) with INTJs before. I have observed their utility and vice-versa