Odd hidden types in the MBTI

[Reverse Transcriptase]

I think the MBTI is great, but I got thinking about the approach we take to justifying the MBTI to people who don't understand it well.

Our most common approach is to explain that everyone has all four functions, and that they are naturally put into an order of primary -> inferior. And that there is a direction of extroversion or introversion for the function that alternates.

I'm including this list for reference:

http://www.timeenoughforlove.org/Functions.htm
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica]Markku Jantunen's Definition of the 8 Functions
Ne is perceiving abstract patterns and connections in response to stimuli (either in the external world or in the mind. ) Ne generates new information starting from something existing. Ne focuses on future possibilities.

Ni is the creation of mental imagery independent of outer stimuli. Ni generates abstract structural images of a given problem domain that a person can view from different points of view at will. Ni focuses on the structure of things from a timeless point of view.

Se is indiscriminant awareness of the physical environment. Se prefers to indulge in that which exists in the present moment.

Si is awareness of concrete forms and categories of sensory perception. Si interprets stimuli in terms of the past. Si stores and recalls facts, figures and past situations.

Te is structuring one's interactions with the external world in a systematic fashion, based on logical and impersonal hierarchies and categories.

Ti is judging the validity of perceptions logically. Ti as a mental process is a collection of threads of thought taking concepts or percepts apart or pulling them together based on rules and criteria.

Fe is adapting one's interactions with the external world to the moods and feelings of others. Fe is sensitive to events like changes in people's expressions or other such "soft," hard-to-quantify conditions in the environment.

Fi is judging perceptions emotionally, based on weight of evidence. Fi as a mental process is the flow of judgements on perceptions personal ideals or feeling of right and wrong. Fi strives for integrity and consistency in it's ideals. Fi is higher cognitive refinement personal emotion. Fi enables one to vividly re-experience past feelings.[/FONT]

If someone with the cognitive functions: Ti, Si, Ne, Fe approached us then we would identify them as an INTP- and since secondary & tertiary abilities can be close to eachother in development we could justify they very strong introverted sensing cognitive function.

Could Se, Fe, Ti, Ni types exist? What about Te, Ni, Se, Fe?
What would they act like? How would we code them? In what ways would we mistake them?

(This thread: http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=1155 helped inspire and is somewhat related. But I still think INIFENISENESTJNJFPFJTPFJ is an INTP! )

 

[Decaf]

Obviously I've wondered about this too. I hold by my theory of logical adaptation, but it doesn't come backed with anything but what the tiny engineer in my head tells me.

If the function you use best is introverted, and the brain was built to be adaptable, the next thing it would try to learn is an extraverted function because the need would be the most obvious. The same for judging and perceiving.

You're right though that a lot of people develop their third function pretty thoroughly and can look like another type, or just different than others of their same type, so the question is...

What if that kind of maturity makes some of the specifics of type irrelevant?

______

Another thought, though this one is self serving so I'm cordoning it off from the main topic of the thread... I was toying around with an idea I put forward a few times that you could define the role of each of the four functions. The areas of Confidance, Creativity, Comfort and Control (honestly, I didn't play with the terms very much to get all the C's to come out).

How I define creativity and comfort is direction. The area of creativity seeks to make a name for itself, the area of comfort seeks to enjoy the creative contributions of others. Granted I'm an INTP, so my secondary is extraverted and my tertiary is introverted, so the model doesn't quite work. Still, my extraverted intuition tells me there's a kernel of truth to weed out of that idea.

 

[Agent Intellect]

i think if anything, This thread proves that there is a large difference, at least in peoples lesser functions. some INTP's have a much more developed Fi then Fe (which is supposedly the feeling function were supposed to develop) and even for myself, my Te and Ni were higher then both my Fe and Fi (of which my Fi was the higher of those two). i think the type indicator works well for our main types (Ti and Ne) but depending on envrinment and upbringing, peoples lesser functions seem to develop differently.

 

[Auburn]

hmmmm....

Also, Decaf, could it be possible that as an INTP child develops, and his functions grow one by one - his more inferior functions may develop as the complementary instead of the typical? For instance, a child's already got Ti down, but then he develops Fe next to balance out Ti because his circumstances demand it. Or also, a child gots Ti and Ne down, but then develops an Fi to complement Ne.

(or perhaps I'm not understanding the inner workings of the cognitive functions properly)

 

[loveofreason]

I've often wondered how (in my case) Ni can be well developed alongside Ne when it's meant to be an either/or case. (One of the reasons I question my type.)

 

[Decaf]

(or perhaps I'm not understanding the inner workings of the cognitive functions properly)

Welcome to the cutting edge Auburn. In this territory there isn't enough consensus for anyone to say that any way is impossible. I think that's why INTPs love new research. It just feels invigorating because there isn't one right answer. Any idea might lead us to a more complete theory.

I suspect that the drive to develop a perceiving function after Ti would be too great (if the brain already knows how to make decisions the most obvious deficiency would be its lack of information gathering capacity. That being said its certainly not impossible, but also potentially self correcting. If someone develops Ti and Fe first, they're going to prefer one because you can't use them at the same time. When they finally develop a perceiving function it will, I believe, be used too frequently for the less used judging function to keep up.

Perhaps many of us don't develop opposite dominant functions first, but rather later on as it becomes the most efficient to specialize in one form of introversion, one form of extraversion, etc. I would really suggest that you pick up

Building Blocks of Personality Type

for a much more thorough understanding of functions than anything I could present.

 

[Jesin]

but then develops an Fi to complement Ne.

You mean Si, right?

As for developing Fe right after Ti because circumstances demand it, well, without Ne, how would he know that his circumstances demand it?

 

[INTPINFP]

I think the MBTI is great, but I got thinking about the approach we take to justifying the MBTI to people who don't understand it well.

Our most common approach is to explain that everyone has all four functions, and that they are naturally put into an order of primary -> inferior. And that there is a direction of extroversion or introversion for the function that alternates.

I'm including this list for reference:
If someone with the cognitive functions: Ti, Si, Ne, Fe approached us then we would identify them as an INTP- and since secondary & tertiary abilities can be close to eachother in development we could justify they very strong introverted sensing cognitive function.

Could Se, Fe, Ti, Ni types exist? What about Te, Ni, Se, Fe?
What would they act like? How would we code them? In what ways would we mistake them?

(This thread: http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=1155 helped inspire and is somewhat related. But I still think INIFENISENESTJNJFPFJTPFJ is an INTP! )

Ha! Well I believe it is in evolutionary terms, advantageous to have as many personalities as one can boast! Highly specialized I might add...evolutionarily advantegous, versatile, INIFENISENESTJNJFPFJTPFJ...

 

[del]

The way I look at it...

INTP = Ti/Ne/Si/Fe by definition.

Lenore Thomson provides some justification for the orders. For instance, Ti is a nonlinear, nonverbal, and wholistic kind of logic, and therefore needs nonlinear, wholistic data to make decisions from -- which means either Ne or Se.

Ni and Si require their perceptions to be structured and concentrated to illicit new data. Hence, IJs must have Fe or Te secondary.

Most theorists I've read have said that the other functions not covered in the classical MBTI ordering can exist in varying levels of development. So an INTP can have a very well-developed Ni -- it's just that, as a percieving function, Ni doesn't give data that can be used very easily by the Ti-Ne loop.

My own personal experience seems to match that.

 

[Jesin]

INTP = Ti/Ne/Si/Fe by definition.

No, by definition, INTP = dominant Ti with secondary Ne. Even if that does imply that the next two functions are Si and Fe, that is not inherent in the definition.