Now I am going to call you hypocrites (something about Sensor and INTJ) generalisations/discriminati

[LAM]

Don't mind the thread title that much. Its just there for the views. But there is a thing that is bugging me, after I finally shown people that I did not in fact mean anything harmful and that some of you completely misunderstood me in my lazy, drunk, drugs, depression and other prevalent problems of INTPs here thread I realised something.

Some of the people had been very offended when they thought I had in some way judged them, yet some people here have no problem generalising about other types. (S types and INTJs mostly.)

One of my best friends is an ESTP yet he is one of my best friends. And he is not stupid, arrogant, inconsiderate, offensive or whatever else it is that some people claim they have.. (Of course I know there are bad S types, but most seem to think most S types are "bad"....)

One of the most crude, rude, offensive, person I know is an INFP yet only love is showered on them on these forums. You are generalising types and even sometimes discriminating against them (you might think your only joking, but even I am sometimes not sure whether it is a joke or not.)

Imagine how an INTJ would feel if he were to read the thread I made about the joy of finding out you are an INTP and finding out it ended up as some childish and stupid argument that included stuff like "I had almost the same reaction till I read the description, and I was like INTJ=FAIL, INTP=WIN" and "I was relieved. I didn't want to be an INTJ. Yuck lol."

Even when people try to excuse it in more serious cases isn't even that convincing (funnily enough I haven't seen anyone even say sorry on these things.)

I may be making this all out as much more serious, but I don't doubt that at least one or two people on other threads and stuff like that were serious.

(Also I am not implying my critics in previous threads are intj and sensor type haters.)

 

[ashitaria]

*sigh*
Don't blame me if you get flamed.

I'll attend your funeral.

 

[Luminates]

Sorry to say, but i'll take a seat on the audience side for this, i'm rather new and would like to stick to my INTP ways and stay out, but I can see what your saying though, people make statements, which turns around and makes them look like hypocrites, but then again, Majority of us being INTP's, we have the tendency to contradict ourselves, so that could be one of the biggest problems here.

Kinda like how i said i wouldn't get involved, but I still posted my thoughts lol

 

[Adymus]

Well... it is a shame that many of us have to be like that. But it is mainly do to two things: Having a misunderstanding of what being that type entails, and venting frustration from having to deal with these types.

This is a really good reason why I am seeing pushing people to understand how cognitive functions work, because I don't want people to see only what they read in some MBTI type description some where. I want people to understand exactly what the psychological types are acting the way they do. Being an SJ does not mean you are a bad person, it just means as an Si user you will have a high reliance on your model of the past, and will be a bit frustrated when your past model is questioned by possibilities that oppose it. There is nothing inherently wrong with that mentality it's just what this person specializes in.

That is really what personality types are, designated specialization. All personality types are neccesary to have a functional human society, and it is necessary to specialize in certain cognitive functions so we can focus our energy into using them exceptionally well, and thus benefit the collective.


Now on the other side of that coin, many of us naturally conflict, and that is to be expected. I don't see it as such a damaging thing to vent your frustration of this aspect of personality as long you understand that they are not just some waste of flesh. They all have a reason for existing and being the way they are.

 

[RubberDucky451]

Courage Wolf has something to say about this.

Spoiler

 

[Darby]

Imagine how an INTJ would feel if he were to read the thread I made about the joy of finding out you are an INTP and finding out it ended up as some childish and stupid argument that included stuff like "I had almost the same reaction till I read the description, and I was like INTJ=FAIL, INTP=WIN"

Since you quoted me, I suppose I will defend myself. By itself yes, what I said sounds bad, but it was specifically in context of the other post I placed about how me and my INTJ friend try to compete to see who is more socially awkward.

Him and I have always been rather harsh and cruel to each other, everything is a competition, and so when we took the MBTI, he got his results first and got INTJ, and then when I finished, I got INTP, and just to shove it in his face, I had made a statement about how what I got was cooler.

In the context of the thread, it probably wasn't necessary, and I apologize. I was specifically trying to show I had an opposite reaction to Adymus thinking INTJ was cooler, and specifically using the same reaction I had initially was probably a little too much to express that.


EDIT: I am also sorry if I make broad generalizations, I don't like that I do it either, and i know I do. I don't know enough about the MBTI and the traits to feel i can truly define anyone by that(which is why for the "INTJ=FAIL" thing it was based on my initial interpretation on the description, and specifically directed at my friend, and placing it on the forum removed the context it required).
I also know when I am making broad generalizations, and I apologize if I ruin your very serious threads with my joking, foolish, generalizations.

Honestly though, I think you need to realize who your talking to here, from my experience on this thread, very few people really care how you feel about whether their being mean or not, and at a certain point I think you need to accept that. And the splitting of a thread, thats a given.

I would also like to note that I agreed with you on the one about drugs/depression/etc. although I do think that depression is not a choice.

 

[Words]

Though I figure everyone was knowing enough to have already known or understood that, your, point and its truth, it was kind of you to remind (or educate) everyone about "borderlines". and your obviously not attacking but just pointing out the sometimes irrational mindset of some. No offense.

 

[Cavallier]

I'm starting to notice a common theme here.

 

[LAM]

I'm starting to notice a common theme here.

ehh??? Seriously if this is about me offending someone, I really don't give a shit anymore. I laid out my observations to be as little offensive to anyohne. I laid out my observations as accurately and inoffensively as I can. Additionally many people seem to think I was saying depression is voluntary, I wasn't, I was implying that along with drugs, alcohol, etc it is one of the most common INTP problems. I wasn't generalising, naming, or judging anyone in either this thread or the other one. I actually will flame anyone who says one more thing about this.

I might just be paranoid about this -_-

 

[Cavallier]

I mean that it seems you make a thread and people freak out about it.

There have been a few threads lately that have been rather...let's say they devolved into judgmental and negative discussions not only about INTPs in general but about the forum as well. I think some members have become a little jumpy because of it. As you say, I wouldn't take it badly.

Example:

How flexible are INTPs?

wrong assumption

Yours (Lazy, Drunk... ) sounded a little like those others and thus people got a little miffed.

 

[shoeless]

i think very few people actually take generalizations that seriously. i think most of us are smart enough to know that there are outliers in every field, that nothing is inherently "bad", etc.

doesn't change the fact that there are certain types were are less likely to get along with. it doesn't make anyone "better", it's just a fact of life.

that said, my best friend here (in germany) is INTJ. i'd certainly still rather be INTP.

for a little while i dated someone who i believe to be ESFP and he's a fantastic guy. we just didn't click. he's not interested in theories, and i'm not interested in running around like a goddamn maniac.

people who get butthurt about silly generalizations really need to step back and think about the context, and whether they should actually take it seriously -- 90% of the time, you probably shouldn't.

LAM, the problem i have with you (and i haven't spoken up about it because plenty of other people had already started shit and i didn't particularly want to get involved) is that you word things poorly, and apparently refuse to admit that you did such. (or you admit it and proceed to blame other people.) i understand you weren't trying to offend anyone. but you need to accept the fact that you did.

my two cents.

 

[LAM]

i think very few people actually take generalizations that seriously. i think most of us are smart enough to know that there are outliers in every field, that nothing is inherently "bad", etc.

doesn't change the fact that there are certain types were are less likely to get along with. it doesn't make anyone "better", it's just a fact of life.

that said, my best friend here (in germany) is INTJ. i'd certainly still rather be INTP.

for a little while i dated someone who i believe to be ESFP and he's a fantastic guy. we just didn't click. he's not interested in theories, and i'm not interested in running around like a goddamn maniac.

people who get butthurt about silly generalizations really need to step back and think about the context, and whether they should actually take it seriously -- 90% of the time, you probably shouldn't.

LAM, the problem i have with you (and i haven't spoken up about it because plenty of other people had already started shit and i didn't particularly want to get involved) is that you word things poorly, and apparently refuse to admit that you did such. (or you admit it and proceed to blame other people.) i understand you weren't trying to offend anyone. but you need to accept the fact that you did.

my two cents.

Ahh. Well that explains heaps. This thread was pretty much proof-read to make sure it isn't considered offensive. apart from that I really can't do much more or better than this . Still. No-one has been starting stuff about this thread yet

 

[cheese]

Nah, you can't play that card AND the "INTPs don't care if they sound offensive" card. Instant lose.

What you can do is admit that offence is annoying and you do care about it, but that ends where you cannot understand the reasons for offence and are met with continued counter-offence after each attempt at eliciting an explanation. Where there is no effort at ego-free dialogue, there can be no effort to salvage whatever 'relationship' existed. And since salvaging a relationship, based on mutual respect, is what 'feeling bad' or apologising for offence is about, there is no need to apologise to an irrepressible idiot, at least until they attempt ceasefire and explain their hurt feelings.

I'm not sure about this. Also, I suspect a Fe-dom would see things differently.

Not addressing Shoeless btw. Just the general culture of cake-eating and cake-watching, both of which I've been an indulgent participant of. (Have I? I don't know. I'm just trying not to offend.)


OP:
It might help to consider that there are hardly any S's, or SJs here. There is less danger of immediate retaliation. Also, the numbers are greatly in favour of INTPs. People are likely to be less guarded, and less painstakingly precise about every degree of distinction that exists between them and another when the majority are bound by a common label. Since there is very little danger of offence, people feel free to joke. I think most would try to keep an open mind outside though. What you see here are emotional reactions to external sources, not the fruit of considered thought.

(I do think it's a risky tendency though. It's very easy to form habits; much more difficult to break them. If we become too accustomed to lumping others into an Other, it'll be too easy to keep doing it everywhere.)

When you generalise here the repercussions are much greater because the targets are your audience. 1. The ego is instantly involved, and people pay very close attention to distinctions when discussing themselves 2. The accusations are meant as serious reflection on INTPs (people-with-a-certain-cognitive-configuration). "Youshouldknowbetter" if you're honestly critiquing, unlike the Us-Them jokes (""?) around the forum. 3. You probably won't be able to prove one way or the other if they're meant humourously or not.

I think everyone's a little hypocritical. It's very difficult to tie every strand of thought and behaviour to a core set of principles. There're always those few loose threads.

 

[shoeless]

i just realized i might seem like i'm contradicting myself in my post.

the difference between silly generalizations (lol SJs are stupid! lol INTJs are stupid!) and offensive generalizations (why are all INTPs crackhead alcoholic lazy depressed assholes) is A) the target audience, B) the context, and C) the way it's worded.

i don't think i need to particularly explain all that. it should be pretty self-explanatory. but like i said, i'm willing to forgive offense pretty easily. i know he wasn't trying to be offensive. it just irked me the way he carried on with it after it had been brought up.

(also i agree with what cheese said.)

 

[LAM]

i just realized i might seem like i'm contradicting myself in my post.

(why are all INTPs crackhead alcoholic lazy depressed assholes) is A) the target audience, B) the context, and C) the way it's worded.


Please, please don't tell me you actually think this. Because if you do, I advise you to go to my third, fourth, fifth, eighth, ninth and tenth posts on that thread. I have explained my use of every single fucking word in that first post. If people can't be bothered reading it I am not even going to listen to shit like this. I have fully explained my posts and have apologised to offended parties. As far as I am concerned there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING MORE I CAN DO (except if you find something else wrong with it I haven't explained.) Before anybody else even mentions this again I want them to read everything I have written about it before even thinking of insulting me like this by blatantly writing something like this after I REPEATEDLY explained on like three threads what I actually meant and said.</p>
(Also if this isn't addressed to you shoeless. It is adressed to anyone who wants to take this up with me without reading the 10 posts I posted on this thread and the other one explaining what I said.) I have apologised for offence taken by anyone on the other thread. Go read it

 

[shoeless]

jesus christ, man. we know what you meant. i said i know what you meant. i was paraphrasing what you literally said in order to make a point.

 

[LAM]

jesus christ, man. we know what you meant. i said i know what you meant. i was paraphrasing what you literally said in order to make a point.

Yeah, I realised that was the case. So I said it wasn't addressed to you. Rather I just put it up there for anybody who wanted to complain

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Everything is more funny if you stereotype & generalize. And thus, our "INTJ=yuck" comments are born out of humour, not out of thoughtful psychoanalysis.

 

[Words]

Might be...you never know.

 

[soraya]

Hello from INTJ wonderland!

Stupid INTJs, they are so silly! No really, I actually enjoyed the joys of INTP thread or whatever. Maybe, because I am a secure INTJ I was able to take the jokes as jokes. They made me laugh because they poked fun at the dumb INTJ things I can be prone to. Hey, each type does dumb shit so we might as well see it as funny!

However, I have had my bad experiences here at INTP forum. But, I never really took it too personally because I just assumed that the person did not understand the cognitive processes. Obviously, if they had known what they were talking about they would never have said what they did. If they don't know what they're talking about why should I be offended? If you are going to talk about someone you had best understand their functions.

I think that is the key(s) here, openness and a willingness to learn about each other, what the MBTI is about anyway. One of my good friends is ISFJ (yeah wtf hey?) and because of the SJ/NT divide we will never be as close or understand each other as well as me and my INTP friend but our friendship works because we have made an effort to understand and accept each other's cognitive processes. It doesn't always work but we try.

Lastly, I have been disturbed by coming across comments like "INTJs are close-minded," "INTJs are arrogant," "INTJs are control freaks." Certainly, when I was an immature, young, and poorly developed INTJ these could all be attributed to me. At immature stages our shadow functions can hang out of our metaphorical pants. If you meet an INTJ behaving in the above described manners they are probably letting their Se hang out all over the place (trying to reconcile themself with immediate realities) or you are misinterpreting or misunderstanding the behavior (so just ask them about it). Aka, if the Se is all over the place they are NOT a good model of an INTJ or even a workable example of the type. Hence, don't make broad generalizations or judgments based on those kinds of people. A mature INTJ is always open to new info and ready to reanalyze their system. We do it constantly and we readily change our judgments based on that. (J is more of a placeholder or bookmark than a set in stone decision).

I would like to see more open-mindedness and more of a willingness to learn about all the functions. Jokes are all well and good but seriously negative comments do need to stop.

 

[Hawkeye]

to be offended on a forum is to lose ones dignity.

 

[soraya]

to be offended on a forum is to lose ones dignity.

For real. People can't even experience tone of voice, expression, etc on a forum so a lot of communication is missing and things can be misread. = not worth being offended at.

Besides, we're mostly T's here so we should be able to understand that being offended is illogical in a lot of ways, especially on a forum.

Still, respect for the dignity of others is important, even on a forum.

 

[Anthile]

Besides, we're mostly T's here so we should be able to understand that being offended is illogical in a lot of ways, especially on a forum.

If things were only that easy.


Anyways, I wouldn't think too much of such jokes. I have often enough heard racist jokes from people who can barely be described as racist but for some reason such outbursts of hypocrisy seem to happen from time to time. I can understand the daily frustration with Si-types and I assume some of us have simply the urge to let off steam from time to time. That doesn't really make it right but... yeah.

 

[ashitaria]

Hello from INTJ wonderland!

Stupid INTJs, they are so silly! No really, I actually enjoyed the joys of INTP thread or whatever. Maybe, because I am a secure INTJ I was able to take the jokes as jokes. They made me laugh because they poked fun at the dumb INTJ things I can be prone to. Hey, each type does dumb shit so we might as well see it as funny!

However, I have had my bad experiences here at INTP forum. But, I never really took it too personally because I just assumed that the person did not understand the cognitive processes. Obviously, if they had known what they were talking about they would never have said what they did. If they don't know what they're talking about why should I be offended? If you are going to talk about someone you had best understand their functions.

I think that is the key(s) here, openness and a willingness to learn about each other, what the MBTI is about anyway. One of my good friends is ISFJ (yeah wtf hey?) and because of the SJ/NT divide we will never be as close or understand each other as well as me and my INTP friend but our friendship works because we have made an effort to understand and accept each other's cognitive processes. It doesn't always work but we try.

Lastly, I have been disturbed by coming across comments like "INTJs are close-minded," "INTJs are arrogant," "INTJs are control freaks." Certainly, when I was an immature, young, and poorly developed INTJ these could all be attributed to me. At immature stages our shadow functions can hang out of our metaphorical pants. If you meet an INTJ behaving in the above described manners they are probably letting their Se hang out all over the place (trying to reconcile themself with immediate realities) or you are misinterpreting or misunderstanding the behavior (so just ask them about it). Aka, if the Se is all over the place they are NOT a good model of an INTJ or even a workable example of the type. Hence, don't make broad generalizations or judgments based on those kinds of people. A mature INTJ is always open to new info and ready to reanalyze their system. We do it constantly and we readily change our judgments based on that. (J is more of a placeholder or bookmark than a set in stone decision).

I would like to see more open-mindedness and more of a willingness to learn about all the functions. Jokes are all well and good but seriously negative comments do need to stop.

Only too true. Many of the INTPs show a hate of society and stupid people. I remember a time when I was young and immature (and I still am *sigh*), I did hate society and stupid people. But now I have learned that no person is stupid and to accept everyone for who they are. The worst thing in my opinion for a figure of authority to do is to change the personality of people.
Another thing I have also learned is that everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. A study by the guy who created the multiple-intelligence test showed that 91% of the kids in elementary school had the potential to be a genius in at least one area of intelligence. And that says alot.
One of the things I value most is open-mindedness. As a teenager who has barely started puberty, I tend to try to be open-minded to the opinions of sex and love around me. Most people are very narrow-minded, and tend to try and argue their point illogically, but I acknowledge our different beliefs.

Overall, the members here are fairly open-minded, and are intellectually adept, but we all, including me, have to more flexible to other types.

And btw, I would be happy to meet an ENTJ, let alone a INTJ or INTP.