Nietzsche on insulting hermits

[Reverse Transcriptase]

A passage from "On the Adder's Bite" from Thus Spoke Zarathustra by Nietzsche

Finally, my brothers, beware of doing wrong to any hermit. How could a hermit forget? How could he repay? Like a deep well is a hermit. It is easy to throw in a stone, but if the stone sank to the bottom, tell me, who would get it out again? Beware of insulting the hermit. But if you have done so-- well, then kill him too.

This paragraph is awesome! I don't understand the "well, then kill him too" part very well. (Earlier in the chapter Nietzsche was writing cryptically about judges ordering executions... but it really wasn't clear.) I think Nietzsche means "if you have wronged a hermit then it's not worth bothering to worry about, dismiss it".

I think INTPs do follow this quote somewhat, since we are often hermit-like in varying degrees. I often find that I will take criticism of myself without trying to defend myself or retorting back. I'm just too good of a listener, and what's the point of defending myself? Their point of view is their Point Of View and they have a right to it. And often people who are attacking me are people I like (girlfriends, relatives) so I don't really wish to unleash my INTP attacks, which will be spot-on and ruthless.

Maybe this passage shows us one of the reasons why we need friends, so we can move beyond being wronged. Or it could be one of the reasons why we do need to retaliate.

 

[Cavallier]

Finally, my brothers, beware of doing wrong to any hermit. How could a hermit forget? How could he repay? Like a deep well is a hermit. It is easy to throw in a stone, but if the stone sank to the bottom, tell me, who would get it out again? Beware of insulting the hermit. But if you have done so-- well, then kill him too.

I think the whole point of this statement is the last part: "well, then kill him to". Neitzsche is saying that a hermit can't forget and he can't repay so doing wrong to a hermit means he's left to stew never able to let it go. Why do you think the archetypal image of the hermit is an old man muttering to himself? What do you think he's muttering about? All the past wrongs done to him. Have you ever spent any time with a true hermit? Listen long enough (if you can get him to divulge that is...we are talking about a hermit after all) and you realize his life is a list of wrongs done to him.

Being a hermit is a long suffering kind of death. So, in his special Nietzsche kind of way, he's telling you that if you insult a hermit the kindest thing to do is kill him then and there. Gotta love that man!

I do think you have it right about INTPs and this image of the hermit. What does an INTP do when faced with conflict? Retreat and analyze...stew over it. I also think you're right about the friends bit too. Without a friend with a bucket how can you hope to get the stone out of the hermit well? Although, I prefer your idea of retaliation instead. Be a violent hermit and then people will think twice about throwing rocks at you!

*keep in mind I'm analyzing this out of context which means I could be completely wrong *

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

hmm, good take on the muttering hermit, Cavallierose

Here's the context: http://books.google.com/books?id=eBX7lluZ2EgC&pg=PA179&lpg=PA179#v=onepage&q=&f=false
The chapter "On the Adder's Bite" starts on page 179 and goes to 181. The hermit quote is right at the end.

 

[Cavallier]

hmm, good take on the muttering hermit, Cavallierose

Here's the context: http://books.google.com/books?id=eBX7lluZ2EgC&pg=PA179&lpg=PA179#v=onepage&q=&f=false
The chapter "On the Adder's Bite" starts on page 179 and goes to 181. The hermit quote is right at the end.

EEEEK! A Google books link!

*scampers off mirthfully to read*

Okay, now that I've read that...I stand by my original interpretation.

 

[Waterstiller]

I don't really wish to unleash my INTP attacks, which will be spot-on and ruthless.

This is something I've wanted to bring up for awhile.

Does anyone else feel like you practice a high degree of restraint because if you lost control of your emotions you could seriously wreck people? I'm all about efficiency and if I'm going to say something to retaliate it's going to be short and devastating. Don't INTP's see the weaknesses in things? So either we can help to make the structure (of self, in this case) stronger or we could attack the weakness. I've always been afraid of the guilt of doing that though so I keep my emotions in constant check..

 

[Logician]

I see the quote "well, then kill him too" could also be more of a warning. if anyperson harbers a grudge for too long the only option that will seem to make sense to them is retaliation, and as hermits are assciated with INTPs, and for the reason givin above about how a INTP not keeping his retaliations in chck is dangerous, its best to kill him than have him for a enemy the rest of his life.

Not that i think that is the real interpretation, just pointing it out as a possibility.

And as for keeping your critical attacks chained, i agree with what waterstiller said. Also when im mad at someone i must keep my emotions in check not just to restrain myself but so i don't get to clouded and loose my critical edge. I plan on loosing that weakness after ive matured a bit past my early teens (15 now) and have better control over my hormones from getting to aggressive to think statically detached. this normally is only a problem when someone i trust makes fun of me though... i think as a INTP im a bit prone to take "just messing around" comments seriously. idk

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

beware the rage of the hermit! they have deadly claws, and a strong protective shell

 

[warryer]

This is something I've wanted to bring up for awhile.

Does anyone else feel like you practice a high degree of restraint because if you lost control of your emotions you could seriously wreck people? I'm all about efficiency and if I'm going to say something to retaliate it's going to be short and devastating. Don't INTP's see the weaknesses in things? So either we can help to make the structure (of self, in this case) stronger or we could attack the weakness. I've always been afraid of the guilt of doing that though so I keep my emotions in constant check..

All the time.

I would agree with logician. I originally took that to be a warning. What else does a hermit have to do than think or even brood? A person with nearly endless amounts of time to think sounds like the worst kind of enemy to me.

Also: Cavallierose you crack me up

 

[Logician]

precisely.. you know thinking about it... i commonly see INTPs here talking about how they imagine how something could have been done to greater destruction, or how something could be used for max devastation... most of us (hopefully) just do this as a mental exercise, but we if we didnt

support INTP for world domination...

(considers makeing a independent thread in the fun section about this...)

 

[echoplex]

it's the quiet ones you gotta watch...

Yes, loners aren't capable of sustaining insults. Seriously, he's not making much sense to me on this one.

I like the discussion though.

 

[Ermine]

This is something I've wanted to bring up for awhile.

Does anyone else feel like you practice a high degree of restraint because if you lost control of your emotions you could seriously wreck people? I'm all about efficiency and if I'm going to say something to retaliate it's going to be short and devastating. Don't INTP's see the weaknesses in things? So either we can help to make the structure (of self, in this case) stronger or we could attack the weakness. I've always been afraid of the guilt of doing that though so I keep my emotions in constant check..

This why my emotions are particularly restrained in public. It would be horrible if I were to lose control in public/away from family. So far, I've only blown up on immediate family members. While I really regret it and all, it's much better for it to happen with family than anyone else due to the unconditional love thing, and since they know me well enough to know to take what I say with several grains of salt when I'm like that. As irrational as it is, the things I say in such a state hurt anyway.

Good thing I'm typically peaceful and slow to hold grudges.

 

[Android]

The version of Thus Spake Zarathustra that I have in hand uses the word "anchorite" instead of "hermit," which changes the meaning of the passage a bit (an anchorite being a religiously motivated hermit).

"Finally, my brethren, guard against doing any wrong to any anchorite. How could an anchorite forget! How could he requite!
Like a deep well is an anchorite. Easy is it to throw in a stone: if it should sink to the bottom, however, tell me, who will bring it out again?
Guard against injuring the anchorite! If ye have done so, however, well then, kill him also!-
Thus spake Zarathustra."

As to the meaning of the passage.. I've debated (briefly) the meaning in the past and never come to anything that I'd stake a claim with. I see many passages from Zarathustra as symbols in and of themselves. I can almost feel the meaning, but I can't clarify it anymore than as it is written.

 

[Zero]

It's pointless to insult a hermit.

 

[INTPINFP]

i think i will grow up to be the ultimate hermit

there are two reasons i tend to not start fights:

im just not good with words. If i approach someone to indimidate them most likely they will ignore me, or make me look like an idiot. i also feel uncomfortable trying to start a fight, because when i look in their eye they seem not the fighting type. I feel like I would be the bad guy and look like i was the one starting the fight, when really they did. it just feels awkward starting a fight.

number 2: dont want to go to jail.

 

[cheese]

Android: we have similar (or the same?) editions.

People who remember XIII:

Didn't you find the book incredibly similar to what he was attempting with us? Especially considering his self-stated attachment to Nietzsche and his desire to transcend him. I started on it a week ago, and it struck me with incredible force. Also made me remember the bit about writing a book on the forum, with the forumites as living characters.

I know lots of people are sick of that period, so please just ignore this and don't bother responding if you're one of them. I'm speaking only to anyone with at least slight interest (in the situation, not necessarily in him). I find it very hard to shake when I've got an unresolved itch in my head.

 

[Ashenstar]

This is something I've wanted to bring up for awhile.

Does anyone else feel like you practice a high degree of restraint because if you lost control of your emotions you could seriously wreck people? I'm all about efficiency and if I'm going to say something to retaliate it's going to be short and devastating. Don't INTP's see the weaknesses in things? So either we can help to make the structure (of self, in this case) stronger or we could attack the weakness. I've always been afraid of the guilt of doing that though so I keep my emotions in constant check..

This is why I choose to be Vulcan. I have seen the damage I cause.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Does anyone else feel like you practice a high degree of restraint because if you lost control of your emotions you could seriously wreck people? I'm all about efficiency and if I'm going to say something to retaliate it's going to be short and devastating.

Pardon my saying so, but I see this as a rather inflated sense of one's power.

Don't INTP's see the weaknesses in things? So either we can help to make the structure (of self, in this case) stronger or we could attack the weakness. I've always been afraid of the guilt of doing that though so I keep my emotions in constant check..

Frankly, I don't see this as unique to INTPs. However, yeah, some people are good at tearing into others.

Dave

 

[Dark_Amphibian]

Pardon my saying so, but I see this as a rather inflated sense of one's power.

*chuckles* Figures that my very first post would be to disagree...but after a bit of thought, I do think INTPs have something of an advantage, destructively. Most people I've encountered attack things like my lack of pop culture (no TV, thanks), personal clothing style, and that I'm not into group bar/club/concert activities. That pretty much rolls right off me, because I'm happy with who/how I am in those respects.

If I snark at one of these people about how ridiculous they are for knowing more about some fictional TV character than their spouse, or considering a "day with the girls" (mani/pedi/mall) to be the height of "Me-time"...they look at me as if I'm crazy.

That would be a level playing field. But I notice things. In an argument, I would lash out about her absurd propensity for eating candy bars whilst lamenting not losing weight. And point out that those light blue jeans probably ought to be retired until they stop illustrating the phrase "muffin top." All based on little things this person has said and done over time, to point me to her true weaknesses. Most people only strike at the obvious.

Noticing how things and work is a powerful thing.

It's hard to not offend/hurt feelings when I'm NOT angry, simply because so much of culture and social behavior seems ridiculous to me. More so after traveling around a bit and seeing how differently assorted groups of people behave/think.

So yeah, Vulcan is the way to go...although I've found meditation (I'm especially fond of Shambhala) to be a less repressed way to achieve many of the benefits without going off-planet.