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New Socioscope INTP-LII description

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On the Wikisocion website there are several "Socioscope" descriptions available. These are among the best descriptions out there, but only a handful of them are translated from the original language. INTP is one of the one's not there. But I found a good Polish version and put it through Google Tranlate and the result is pretty serviceable. Behlod!

"What is the interesting part - the life!"

Concentration - watchful gaze, never mind that nothing he sees on about? - Focus not on themselves but on their world.

What in the unknown world?

They argue that there is truth. Find your way to it.

"I do think Tearaz first conscious step to the real values ​​of freedom, beauty, truth, and of course, love."

But this is not enough. There is one important condition. The need to convince others of their truths, need for others to their goals, the need to make the lives of others according to your desires - stupid, cruel and useless.

LII is usually quiet.

"Words can not bring the truth"

But if they start to speak, you should listen to them ...
[FONT=&quot]I think, therefore I am

Even in young children such hits extraordinary seriousness and watchful eyes focused .

" I always think - when I eat , when I go watch a movie, listen to music , when I talk to someone about small things , and even when I sleep . Sometimes they are just fragments of ideas or a thought , sometimes surprising insights about the world , the universe in which we live. "

Sometimes it seems that the LII is not so much dead as learning to life. His exclusion from the outside world , the silent perception of what is happening around - just to not upset by the presence of true , objective picture of life. In his consciousness like building a theoretical model of the known universe to him , and on this basis they try to find the most general principles of life .

And for the needs of facts , information, knowledge. The most important ( and most trusted ) source of knowledge for him - the book. Probably for the children with this type of learning to read and write before the other . For four years they learn to read their favorite stories at the age of five Russian attempt to correct spelling ( " If the letter " C " is read as " CL " , then why in the name of " CLI ˙ " unnecessary to write the letter" L " - you can simply "Those ˙" ) , and at the age of six parents try to hide from them all thick books that attract them like a magnet (probably by the logic that the book roughly the wiser ) .

In his youth, LII read everything will fall into their hands - poems , memoirs , books, history books , encyclopedias , women's magazines , biographies , science fiction and adventure , popular science books , old newspapers . They can be caught up in reading the phone book. What's more - read books more than once.

They can easily find the information they need , the look of the book as well can assess whether it is worth the read.

Thanks to the high speed of reading and a good memory are usually more learned than their peers , their logic and knowledge can often confine the corner even in adults. Nevertheless, parents should not put loud and clear in these high hopes . It is stressful and increases susceptibility to failure, which can never be avoided.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Man is created to be free

Generally, such a child my parents problems do not create , only myself - but in a large quantity. The adverse psychological situation can become suspicious , and his self-analysis turns into self-criticism . Often the fear of possible trouble (which often invents itself ) . The real unpleasantness handle yourself. He does not like to ask for help , but it can be expected that others will think and propose it themselves .

The school has no learning difficulties on Fridays. Top of the rules deal with strict and natural objects.

" But I often get bored - it's not life. "

The humanities goes too dry and too logically ( is attempting to bring to a close the mathematical basis ) , and the technical success lacks practical veins and patience.

Physical work is exhausting for LII . However, copes well with steady work that does not take up his mind . As long as his hands are working in automatic mode , it is a more interesting occupation - thoughts. Or just fantasizing . Or both at the same time toi .

It has a well-developed imagination . However, in situations requiring rapid response and decisive decision may jam. With it is often the case that " a good idea comes alone ."

"We often analyze past situations , I could go all the way if I said this or that. Well - sad. But everything is over and nothing changes . "

Therefore wishes to act as though to make it a little time to think.

Pretty insightful : ego advanced logic allows him to see the real causes of the events taking place . Maybe with sufficient reliability to convert the end , the development of the situation. When planning a new business , best of all , see the likely potential obstacles and dangers and the idea of ​​waiting for him future problems may discourage him anything to get started. There is a risk taker and does not like fights .

LII often do not tell others about their plans and stubbornly silent about failures . And generally even those closest to them, people know very little about them .

Wary , strongly feels dishonesty or deceit in other people . But if anyone would be bullish and convincing , hiding under the mask of deception accuracy , LII will believe in any lingo - the sincerity lies at face value.

LII have a unique sense of humor - complex and paradoxical . This is often expressed by the fact that a serious look ( which is a master ) , says the wise words of blatant stupidity . Besides, he rarely jokes because people often perceive his words seriously and pout on them. Therefore LII time later explained that it was a joke . Besides, it can not tell stories , so it seems that " biscuit " without any sense of humor.
Not all heart - others

All issues related to human relationships , for LII - Golf doubt and uncertain behavior. A good relationship with a man at the LII is expressed not so much feelings and emotions as practical takeover of his needs , solving their problems. Experiencing difficulties when trying to meet closer to upatrzonym the man when he wants to make friends .

" Loneliness worst of all. Expect that to find friends after that choose this path of the heart , which is chosen by me ... "

Most of his own attempts to skrócania distance does not lead to anything good .

LII as teenagers often have serious problems in contact with their peers , very hard for him to be their " my man." Therefore, rather likes to romp in the street with other children , preferring to stay at home with books. Friends are few serious silent , keeps all his experience in itself.

Senior , in contact with the people wants to be polite and considerate , be absolutely correct in all . But the " inside " still will not admit anyone . If you are against him behave inappropriately , they rarely explain the relationship , rather cut off from the unpleasant caller impenetrable barrier .

Psychological tension (family discord , various conflicts similar to this ) intolerant , so will stick with them at bay.

Do not like to explain the relationship, or misunderstanding , but if necessary, calmly and sensibly will try to put all the dots on the "i " .

In conversations LII trying as much as possible to avoid any abusive words and observation : the thing is that they have the interlocutor so much more impressive than they want. In other words , this admonition, which sounded to entirely innocent of paragraphs of most others , is seen almost as an insult if it is spoken by LII .

So often swallow small images : understands that his answer will be much stronger , and it's unnecessary.

If the environment will take his patience for weakness and will be misused , they risk the hope that finally the unexpected and very sharp blow . Anyone have the opportunity to be in the epicenter of the explosion will never forget.

And he did not overpower LII forget that affect the state : for it is a terrible and unnatural , like the moment when the cheating itself. However, he will walk to the end and sooner die than allow further humiliate myself.

But honestly such a thing happen a few times in his life. Finally, LII is still soft and yielding man . In contact with people basically give up the pressure on them.

" But for me, too , and do not press on ! "

The term " power " is almost always seen as " violent " . Paradoxically , but the softer asked him facing the more difficult to deny him . If you feel the pressure on each other can completely stop responding to all the words and teachings .

The more difficult it is for LII to defend their rights and interests , has weakened the sense of ownership . If it ignores the rights of other people , can do nothing to correct the situation and defend himself.

In particularly severe cases can develop in LII " victim syndrome " - the man who may be offended all you want and he is not able to stand in his own defense .

LII tend quite often in sharp declines of humor - the wistful excitement to fall. They are very dependent on its energy state , which does not depend on their mind. You also need to take into account that after the shock of his character LII expected future negative moments better than radiant perspective. This his property nor adds to the joy and confidence .

Isolated LII , especially the youth, can not play . If during the ceremony , no one does not pay attention to him and not trying to attach to the general hilarity , can sit in the corner all night .

" I used to sit - in the disco ! "

Honestly is grateful to those who generously share with him the true joy and festive humor.

"I like to laugh, but it does not happen as often as you want to be ... "

Often the outside looks like " daft " or " blue Tchoulkova " and people believe that it is . In contact with it must be remembered that in the dilemma of "to be" vs. " sound ", he almost always chooses "to be" and rarely allows himself to " look " .

This also explains his favor , and to niepokaźnej exterior. If LII lifetime is forced yourself to take care of their appearance , he is quite confused spectacle. Style , refinement , charm - well, for it is ridiculous compared to the vast universe !

One of the LII does not agree with that? Please Come to the mirror.

However, the phrase " the man everything has to be perfect ... " should just LII . In fact , he wanted to look good , but he is a pity to waste the time and strength.
How do I know what I want?

LII are quite helpless in the organization of its existence. Of course, if you go out so that it's boring the whole family will fall on his shoulders, will be able to build it up very well. But this will be done at great expense of time and effort. I strongly spoil his mood. LII are genuinely surprised when they discover that there are people who are zanużeni in household chores.

Indiscriminate when it comes to eating them all before him to bet, as long as the vessel was clean. His sense of samku is slightly dull - to assess which of the two dishes taste better it must try them one after the other - the taste of what you ate yesterday she no longer remembers. He hardly be the answer to the question: "What do you want for dinner today?" - Where he is supposed to know? And his opinion about what is good and what is not, often made ​​up of other people's words.

LII is not physically strong, angular movements and awkward - a good athlete or dancer it will not.

"And that's all you want to know - to be graceful, strong, clever!"

Health College wishes to pursue the simple methods - an appropriate diet, exercise, avoiding excesses (and also not quite the LII are less likely than others to alcohol, smoking and drugs in particular, is still effectively compete with them at close).

They like to walk a lot and quickly on foot - then get a better thought. Despite the weakness of the physical feature including a large perseverance. If you play sports that prefer individual sports on the group.
Life - the only thing that makes a man

LII usually quite responsibly treat their professional duties, his career. Even for women LII job as an opportunity to self-realization is more important than family. And if it's still a big deal, they can almost pity to give up their personal lives.

From LII hard wait for the praise, but as I say some, is actually deserved. The criticisms sometimes exaggerating. But the same high standards apply to himself: LII usually committed to high ethical standards, which moreover do not like to talk. He does not like "study of life" of other people.

"A man should educate yourself."

In this paper LII does not like to work on the template, to be "formal contractor" and can not do without the initiative. In his youth, is quite "hit". Will not work head with your hands. Easier for him to lead an interesting and promising ideas and impose a plan of implementation rather than make it yourself.

The detail can be careless, if, for example, solves a complicated task, you may find an original and elegant way to solve the problem and commit wanton with przemnażaniu two digit numbers.

Not active: commercialism or personal business deals with the principle of "the others' footsteps and the beaten path", but always necessary to give something back. For all your hard-appeasement becomes a fool when others begin to criticize his actions and effectiveness.

"I know what to do!"

Peaceful and constructive criticism can be seen only in the form of a clear and sympathetic (in its meaning) allusions. He likes to give other useful and relevant advice but never insists on its validity and compulsory execution.
My job offer - your reject

Normally you need LII can not knowingly give incorrect advice or deceive the one who trusts him. This does not mean that he will never deceive people. Most of his lies - it's just self-defense. A wyrządziić lie and hurt someone - a great trauma for the fair LII. Maximum this on what I can with a clear conscience that provide incomplete information.

But hiding some things from others too seriously. Promising someone quiet, keep his word (as you do not spill the beans by accident).

"For sure."


Often, in his own words he gives to people hostile weapons against each other.

LII rzwiązuje their problems so that possibly not affect the interests of the people who surround him. In building relationships with people trying to realize the principle of mutual respect and want to always deal with them fairly. Needless to say that the feeling of justice in LII like birth. With all his distaste for violence may get into a fight when he sees the violent disruption of justice.

At the very "developed" LII concept of justice coincides with the concept of equality, which does not so much good.

He does not like to give a promise, a request can only say, "Well, no promises, but I'll try." It can be, and veiled denial, and an internal decision to do everything within its own.

I hardly know how to turn the "diplomacy" is a synonym for the mendacity and greedy kombinatorstwa. Complicated problems nodes (particularly ethical) is not willing to resolve and rozrąbywać, which quite often does not go to him for good. Excessively categorical in his words and deeds, it's better to act fast and straightforward. Women LII do not believe in first love (as statements of fact), and men perceive it on a "time and headache."
He writes to you - what more could you want?

In their behavior is oriented towards permanent and designed to save time. In an interview wants (nieświadomie!) to be as concise. If one phrase could be comprehensive five-story - will be very pleased with himself. When he says, wants to add to his words maximum point. (Therefore, it is important to listen to the conversation very carefully - none of his words will not be superfluous or random).

Conventional mechanical movements in the LII are also very cost-effective, accurate and extremely coordinated. The kitchen can mix salad with one hand and the other reaching for the salt, and the knee to close the door of the cabinet.

"Unfortunately the other leg can not be used - you could fall."

LII everything is done safely and steadily, so the surrounding perceive, how quickly it works only when it gets clear that the hourly work is done it will be twenty minutes.

The shortage of time usually works better and more efficiently, lack of time motivates him. If the required time frame will be located anyone except him, he will keep the calm and composure, not allowing for any panic and helping his companion to do or anything, or even just the most important thing.

Time LII feel very well, but are not aware of it. Not providing for a time as what it will take, can make it with anything. Even if the "acceptable" is to be late (eg a meeting), it will stop altogether for a few minutes.

He feels a profound responsibility for other people's time. He talks about this as a fact: although usually is not very clear diction to the question of time is usually the loud, clearly and accurately.
Description of Functions

The first function : The logical relationship


Analytical mind. Learn where to find in all of cause and effect. The tendency to abstraction , systems thinking . The ability to separate the important from the unimportant things . Theorizing , prone to mental work , the construction of abstract models .

The second function : Intuition opportunities

Understanding the meaning of events and phenomena in the world. Create a hypothesis about the regularity of the universe. The need to make life more meaningful , rich in new ideas . Avoiding unnecessary steps . Idealism , creativity , imagination and global thinking.

The third function : Ethics relations

Formal adherence to standards of behavior in their relations with the people , imitating someone else's example. The desire for education in the politeness and correctness. Very poor understanding of the needs of the people around him . Internal uncertainty ethics of their actions. Caution in the experience of contact with other people .

The fourth function : volitional sensing

The weakness of their potential strength. The main strength of action denied to other people and complete rejection of force action on each other. My weakness is seen very painful . Weakened sense of ownership . The desire to avoid situations with a strong focus .

The fifth function: Ethics of emotions

Underestimation of the role of the emotional aspect of life. Inability to self cope with their negative emotions . Periodic blues and depression. Subconscious expectation of help from others . Gratitude for giving joy and good humor . Insult to life in the event of shortage of positive emotions . External nieemocjonalność , passivity , emotional vulnerability .

Sixth function : Sensor feelings

Low sensitivity . Poor ability to control your life. Waiting for help to create comfort and coziness. Ready to go after other earnest counsels . Niepokaźna exterior, composed of porządnością .

The seventh function : The business logic

Subconscious desire to be up to date on issues of their loved ones and friends. Willingness to help them in difficult situations , if you request it . Rejecting criticism of his address when it comes to professional activity and professionalism. High performance does not always lead to significant results. Szablonowość behavior in professional pursuits . High automaticity of movement.

Eight function : Intuition time

Good, but virtually no conscious sense of time. Preaching the dangers standing in the way of other people , ready in time to inform them of this . Subconscious desire never to be maintained over time. Understanding the high value of time. Good memory , caring for someone else's time , punctuality, precision .

Source: http://www.socioscope.com/modules/sc_intro0/index.php?id=15
Socionics create divisions and not abstract models , but the imposition of private experience . Because no matter how much these distributions and models reflect the reality , that they organize these experiences .
 
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I take it back, it's not an easy read. But funny in places. "I used to sit - in the disco!"
 
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I've figured out that translating the original Russian version which is found in the link at the bottom gives a better result but I don't have time to do that just now because I can only do it in sections.
 

Brontosaurie

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dude something called "socioscope" cannot be good and you know this.
 

Cherry Cola

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The result was quite interesting stylistically speaking. Coming back from a section of Amnesia: A machine for pigs, the experience seems to rub off on my reading of this text. I find myself feeling as if though some kind of abomination is being described. Especially in this part:

"What is the interesting part - the life!"

Concentration - watchful gaze, never mind that nothing he sees on about? - Focus not on themselves but on their world.

What in the unknown world?

They argue that there is truth. Find your way to it.

"I do think Tearaz first conscious step to the real values ​​of freedom, beauty, truth, and of course, love."

But this is not enough. There is one important condition. The need to convince others of their truths, need for others to their goals, the need to make the lives of others according to your desires - stupid, cruel and useless.

Or as if though a poem by an angel of death :O
 

RaBind

sparta? THIS IS MADNESS!!!
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I went to Wikisocion and saw this
Join the english-speaking community at the16types.info
In that site it says LII is for INTj and ILI is for INTp.
Intuitive Logical Introvert ILI (INTp, Ni-Te): CRITIC

The gaze of ILI is calm, a little melancholy, cold, detached, and thoughtful; at times it is self-submerged, at other times testing and experimental, and most offen quite scattered and diffuse. Now and then the expression of his eyes becomes mocking and sly and a bit of luster appears in them. Frequently his eyes are large and hold a concentrated look. ILI's mimicry is quite monotonous; his facial expression is often dissatisfied or lamenting. The smile of politeness on his face sometimes does not correspond to the situation and thus seems somewhat artificial, but most often it is soft and predisposing, now and then even coquettish. ILI is usually calm and melancholic. He makes an impression of someone who is balanced, serious, a person of some depth. If he dislikes something, he may refer to it with sarcasm. His motions are smooth, unhurried, and relaxed; gait is a bit uncertain, though he tries to hold himself with dignity; his gestures are modest and undemonstrative, as is his entire manner of behavior. His pose is relaxed and unconstrained. Usually he is somewhat slow, likes to talk and chat. His speech is smooth and a little monotonic.

PHILOSOPHER (Ni-INTp)

APPEARANCE: The intuitive subtype seems balanced, calm, even lagging. Possess well-developed figurative and associative thinking. Reads a lot and is given to contemplation and reflection. Likes to converse at length, narrating something on various subjects or retelling something which he has previously read. In conversation he is usually tactful, polite, somewhat reserved, tries to avoid being overly direct and critical. Frequently he feels suppressed and dissatisfied by something – either by his state of health, or by being in poor spirits, or due to some other cause. He rarely discusses his problems with others, hold himself somewhat at a distance. Internally he is rather timid, contradictory, and vulnerable, although he tries not to show this. His movements are fluid and unhurried. Sometimes his figure is tall and lanky, other times - proportional, but he always seems calm and filled with a sense of his own value. His gait and movements are smooth, may be somewhat swinging and wavering.

EXPERT (Te-INTp)

APPEARANCE: The logical subtype makes an impression of a self-confident, sober-minded, rational person. Most often he is courteous, demonstrates a critical turn of mind and possesses a sense of humor. He smiles frequently but his smile seems somewhat monotonous and set. He tries to be polite, therefore doesn't always voice all of his thoughts and observations. Likes to subject things to analysis. Sometimes he seems haughty and derisive. Skeptical, ironic, and mistrustful. Trusts more in figures and facts than in hastily drawn conclusions. A good rationalizer; he is able to discern the main points and avoid engaging in tasks and projects that are futile in his opinion. Most often his figure is heavy-set and pycnic. His gait is usually quick, movements are purposeful and resolute. May actively gesticulate while speaking. Appears somewhat gusty and impulsive, but usually holds himself with integrity and calm dignity.
 

Jennywocky

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I went to Wikisocion and saw this
In that site it says LII is for INTj and ILI is for INTp.

LII = socionics INTj = MBTI INTP
ILI = socionics INTp = MBTI INTJ

Or did I misunderstand the inherent question within your post?
 

pjoa09

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LII = socionics INTj = MBTI INTP
ILI = socionics INTp = MBTI INTJ

Or did I misunderstand the inherent question within your post?

I disagree with you. I relate to ILI and MBTI INTP a lot. I can't relate to MBTI INTJ at all.
 

Ink

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I disagree with you. I relate to ILI and MBTI INTP a lot. I can't relate to MBTI INTJ at all.

If you care anything about the functions the INTp/ILI is Introverted intuitive dominant and Extraverted Thinking auxilliary whilst the INTj/LII is Introverted thinking dominant and extraverted intuitive auxilliary. If you don't care about the functions you shouldnt even bother with socionics imo. When you say you relate to the description, do you really mean you relate to all the countless different descriptions the are of the different types? Cause I find all of them are very different and I couldn't imagine one person fitting them all.
 

Jennywocky

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I disagree with you. I relate to ILI and MBTI INTP a lot. I can't relate to MBTI INTJ at all.

Uh... what do you mean you disagree with ME?
I'm just describing the actual systems.

For J/P, Socionics (at least most forms) keys off the primary.
MBTI keys off the extroverted function (primary/aux).
That's just how the systems work.
So for introverts, the j/p is typically flipped.

As far as what you identify as, I commented not at all upon that. You can identify however you wish.
 

Ex-User (8886)

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http://socjonika.pl/#socioscopelii

I'm Pole, so I understand this text perfectly.

LII perfectly fits with INTP

I can say, that this tell more about INTP, than all MBTI textes I have read.

If you want, maybe I would translate this to english.
 
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I've done a better translation by putting the Russian version through Google Translate and then tried to tidy it up as best I can. Some of it is still utter nonsense so the offer above of a translation from a native Pole would be helpful. Please feel free to use and edit my new tranlation if it helps.

I don't know how to edit the original post though. So I'll just post the new version in the post below.
 
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Logical – intuitive Introvert (LII) - Socioscope Description
a.k.a INTj (lower case j) (socionics)
a.k.a INTP (mbti)
GOT IT!!??
“Until then, this is an interesting thing - life!”

Intently concentrated gaze, without seeing anything around about it? – It is immersed, in its inner world.

What is there in this unknown universe?

They say there is living the truth. To find her way.

“Now, I think I'm making the first conscious steps to the true values​​: Freedom, Beauty, Truth, and of course, love”.

But this is not enough. There is one important condition. The desire to convince others of their truths, the desire to direct others towards their goals, the desire to make the lives of others in their desires - stupid, heartless and useless.

LII is usually silent.

"Words cannot bring thetruth."

But if he starts to speak, he is worth listening to...

I think, therefore I am.
Even small children of this type amaze surrounding adults with their seriousness and attentive, focused eyes.

“I always think - when I eat, when I go, watch a movie, listen to music while chatting with someone about nothing, and even when I sleep. When I think I do not get tired. Sometimes it's just a fantasy, or some fragments of thoughts, and sometimes stunning insights about the world, the universe in which we live.”

Sometimes it seems that LII is not so much alive, but learning to live. His detachment from the outside world, his tacit perception of all that is happening around - only in order not to stir up their presence a real, objective picture of life. In his mind, he is building as a speculative model of the known universe to him, and on this basis is trying to find the global patterns of life.

And for that he needs facts, information, knowledge. The most important (and credible) source of knowledge for him is the book. Perhaps the children with this type learn to read and write before others. By the age of four, they are themselves able to read their favorite fairy tale. At five – they are trying to amend the Russian spelling ("If the letter" g "is read as" the same "then why in the name of" Jack "to write extra letter" e "- you can just" Zhnya "), and at six parents hide from them all the thick books to which they are attracted like a magnet (probably, by the logic of "the thicker the book, the smarter they will become").

In his youth, LII reads everything he can get his hands on - poetry, memoirs, books, history books, encyclopaedias, women's magazines, biographies, science fiction and adventure books about science, old newspapers. They may even read the telephone directory. What's more – they might read the book several times.

They can easily find the information they need, they can assess from the appearance of the book whether it is worth a read.

Due to their high speed of reading and a good memory they are usually more erudite than their peers, their logic and knowledge can sometimes stymie even an adult. However, parents should not loudly and clearly lay great hopes on them. It is stressful and increases susceptibility to failure, which cannot be avoided.


Man is born to be free
In general, the problems parents that child usually does not create but themselves - and being in a huge number! In unfavorable psychological situations can become doubtful, and develops into a soul-searching introspection. He is very afraid of potential trouble (which he often invents itself). In fact, he usually copes with trouble alone. He does not like to ask for help, but expects that others will think and suggest it themselves.

At school LII is not difficult to learn from the top five. It is usually best to give exact and natural sciences.


“Although they are often boring - it's not life.”


For a humanitarian, he is somewhat dry and overly logical (and he's trying to bring them under the exact mathematical basis), and for success in the technical lacks practical vein, and patience.

Physical work is exhausting for LII. However, he copes well with steady work that does not take up his mind. As long as his hands are working in automatic mode, it is a more interesting occupation – thoughts, or just fantasizing, or a combination of both.


He has a well-developed imagination. However, in situations requiring rapid response and decision-making can "freeze up”. He's often the case that "good thinking comes afterward."


“Often, analyzing a situation in the past, I realize that things could have been otherwise, I could have done this or that. But - alas! It is over and I cannot change anything.”

So usually tries to act so that was a little bit of time poraskinut brains.

Pretty insightful, his advanced logic allows him to see the real causes of events. Maybe with a sufficient degree of probability to calculate what the outcome of the situation. When planning a new business , best of all, he can see the likely potential obstacles and pitfalls and the thought of future problems may discourage him from getting started. He is not a risk taker and does not like adventures.

LII does not always tell others about his plans, and is stubbornly silent about his failures. But in general, even the closest people know very little about him.


Mistrustful, he has a heightened sense of insincerity or duplicity in others. But if someone is behaving aggressively and convincingly, hiding under the mask of deception truthfulness, LII will believe any nonsense - sincerity in a lie, he takes at face value.

LII has a peculiar sense of humour which is intricate and paradoxical. Externally, the line is expressed in a serious way (and at this he is a master) but the words spoken are stupid or absurd. However, he rarely jokes, because usually people take his words seriously and, sometimes, are offended by them. Here LII, then it is sometimes necessary to explain that "it was a joke." Yet he does not know how to tell jokes, so it seems to others he is a "cracker/biscuit" without the slightest sense of humor.


Not all heart – strangers

All matters relating to the relationship between people, for LII - the area of doubt and uncertainty of actions. Good attitude to any person by the LII is expressed not so much in feelings and emotions as in practical care of his needs, or helping to solve their problems. He experiences some difficulties when trying to converge more closely with nonprofit man when he wants to make friends.

“Loneliness is the hardest ... I hope that I will find friends at a target heart chose the path that I have chosen ...”


Most often, his efforts to reduce ethical distance do not lead to anything good.

The LII teenager often has serious problems with peers, it would be hard for them to be "his own man." Therefore, it doesn’t like to hang out in the street with other children/teens, preferring to stay at home in the community of the book. Friends are few, he is silent, serious, all experiences he keeps to himself.

Growing up, in dealing with people struggling to be polite and considerate, be correct to absolutely everyone. But the "inward" still prefers not to let anybody in. If you are against him behave inappropriately, they rarely explain the relationship, would rather cut off from the unpleasant person by putting up an impenetrable barrier.

Psychological strain (family quarrels, all kinds of conflicts and the like) are felt painfully, so try to keep yourself within a restrained.

Do not like to explain the relationship, or misunderstanding, but if necessary, calmly and sensibly will try to put all the dots on the "i".

In conversations LII tries hard if possible to avoid offensive expressions and comments: the impression that they produce on the interlocutor is usually far greater than he intended. In other words, the observation that would have sounded innocent enough from the lips of most other people, is seen almost as an insult if it is expressed by LII.

That has him sometimes silently swallow petty grievances, because he realizes that his answer would be much stronger, and that's not fair .

If the a person mistakenly take his patience for weakness and will abuses it, they risk eventually running into an unexpected and very sharp blow. Those who are "lucky" to get to the epicentre of this explosion will never be able to forget it.

And he LII also cannot forget the state of the passion: for him it is horrifying and unnatural, as if at that moment he betrays himself. And yet, it will go to the end and would rather die than allow further humiliate myself.

But to be honest, it happens a maximum of a couple of times throughout his life. All the rest of the LII is soft and pliable people. In dealing with people, he refuses on principle to put pressure on them.


But for me, too, do not push!”

The concept of "power" they almost always perceived as "violence”. Paradoxically, the softer the request made to him by asking him is difficult to refuse, but if feels he feels pressure on himself, can completely stop responding to any words and exhortations.

It is more difficult for LII to defend their rights and interests, as he has a weakened sense of ownership. If his right to ignore the people around them can so nothing to take to rectify the situation and protect themselves.

In severe cases, the LII can develop a kind of " victim complex " - a person who may be offended by all and sundry, and cannot stand up for himself.

LII quite often suffers severe mood swings - from excitement to a dreary decline. He himself is largely dependent on his energy state, which is outside the control of his mind. We should also note that the characteristic of LII to anticipate future negative points better than the glowing prospects. It's his property, too, does not give him joy and confidence.

An isolated LII, especially in youth , cannot have fun . If on a holiday no one pays any attention to him and not trying to engage in the general merriment, he can sit in a corner all evening.


“And
sitting-in discos!”


He is sincerely grateful to those who generously share with him real joy and a festive mood.

“I love to laugh, but it does not happen as often as I would like...”

Often he looks so much seems "biscuit/cracker" or "blue-stocking" that people sincerely believe that is what he is. In dealing with it must be remembered that the LII of the dilemma "to be or seem" almost always chooses "to be" and rarely allows himself to "appear".

This, incidentally, explains his commitment to the unprepossessing appearance. Unless life itself forces LII to take care of his appearance, he is a pretty sad sight. Style, elegance, attractiveness - well, it's not important to him than the vast universe!

Do you, LII, not agree with that? Come, please, to the mirror.

Nevertheless, the phrase "In the person all should be fine ..." belongs to LII. Basically, he wanted to look attractive, but he damn shame to waste their time and effort.


How do I know what I want?!

The LII is quite helpless at organizing their life. Of course, if it turns out that "this tiresome way of life" and the whole family will be on his shoulders, he will be able to satisfactorily establish it. However, this will be done at great cost of time and effort. And it can spoil his mood. LII genuinely surprised to learn that there are people who get a thrill doing all the household chores.

In food it is unpretentious, and eats what is put on the table - as long as the dishes are clean. His sense of taste is a little dull, to assess which of the two courses is better, he needs to try them out at the same time - a taste of what was eating yesterday, she no longer remembers. It would be hard to define and answer the question: "What do you want for dinner tonight?" - How is he to know that? And his view of what he is currently eating often is made up from other peoples’ opinions.

LII is not physically strong, and moves awkwardly – it is not a good athlete or will not work as a dancer.

“And so want it all to be able to - to be graceful, strong, clever!”

He tries to maintain order in their health in simple ways - proper diet, exercise, avoiding excesses (by the way, other than LII prone to alcohol, smoking and especially to drugs, and even quite successfully combats peer pressure from their friends regarding these habits).

He likes long walks at a fast pace – it is during this time he does his best thinking. While he has relative physical weakness, he possesses considerable stamina. If he plays sports, he prefers individual sports over team sports.


Life-the only thing that was given to man

Usually LII has quite a responsible attitude to their professional duties and in their career. In general, even for women LII, work is an opportunity to self-realization and is more important than family. And if it is still present case, some can be almost without regret at all give up their personal lives.

From LII it is difficult to wait for praise, but if he says something of approval, then you really deserve it. Occasionally his criticism goes too far but his exacting principles apply just as much to himself: LII usually sets itself a high moral bar about what, incidentally, he does not like to talk about. He does not like "learn to live" other people.

“A person should educate himself.”

In work LII does not like to act in an “executive” manner and cannot do without others’ initiative. Young to him for that pretty much "hit." He also prefers to use his head, not his hands. It is easier to put forward an interesting and promising idea to outline a plan for its implementation, than to put it into practice.

In details he can be careless, for example, he can find an original and elegant way to solve complex problems and then ruin it by making a stupid mistake in multiplying two numbers together.

He is not very adventurous, and in commerce or personal business follows mainly in other people's footsteps and stick to the beaten track, but is always sure to add something of his own. For all its pliability is hard-headed and stubborn when people begin to criticize his actions and efficiency.


“Only I know what to do!”

Calmly and constructively can accept criticism in the form of light and friendly (as he understood it) hint. By the way, he likes to give others useful business tips, but never insists on their strict and mandatory execution.

My job is to offer your – cancel

Typically, LII will not give false advice or mislead someone who trusts him. This does not mean that he will never deceive people. Most often it is a lie - just self-defense, but to lie and that causes harm to another human being – that is a major trauma for a "decent" LII. It is better if it comes with a clear conscience, it does not give all the information.

But some things and hide it sometimes too hard. Vowing to someone to keep quiet, keep their word. (Unless you do not accidentally spill the beans.)


“That’s right”


Often, in his own words he, personally hostile to give him a weapon against the people themselves.

LII solves their problems so that, if possible, they do not infringe upon the interests of others. In building relationships with people is committed to implement the principle of mutual respect and always wants to deal with them fairly. I must say that LII is born with a sense of justice. With all his distaste for violence may get into a fight when he sees the violent disruption of justice.

It is not very "advanced" LII concept of justice is much the same with the concept of equality, whereby it tends to unify people, and this, of course, does not lead to anything good.
He does not like to make promises and to the requester can only say, "Well, I do not promise, but I will try." This may be a veiled rejection, and makes an internal decision to do everything in his power.

Almost does not know how to cheat, "diplomacy" for him synonymous with deceit and cunning mercenary. Complex knots of problems (especially ethical) tend not to start, and the hack, because of what often turns out to be a loser. Unnecessarily categorical in his words and actions, prefers to act fast and straightforward. Girl-LII worthless first declaration of love (in the form of a statement of fact), and the other party is perceived as a blow to the head, "time - ready!"


I write to you -what more?

In his actions he is subconsciously oriented to constant and maximum time savings. In conversation tries to be very concise. If one phrase can completely exhaust the theme of the five-minute story - he will be very pleased with himself. When he speaks, he tries to maximise the meaning of words. (This is why in an important conversation, it is necessary to listen very carefully - not a single word of it will not be superfluous or random.)

Normally, physical movements of LII are very economical, accurate and very coordinated. In the kitchen, he can mix a salad with one hand, use the other to pour the salt, and even close the cupboard door with his knee.


"Unfortunately the other leg cannot be used - you could fall."

LII does everything calmly and quietly, so colleagues notice how quickly he works only when it is observed that an hour’s work has been done by them in twenty minutes.

LII works better and more efficiently under pressure, and lack of time will motivate him. If at the right time can keep someone close to him to behave calmly and coolly, preventing any panic and helping his friend to do all or at least so the most important thing.

LII feels time very well, although he is not aware of it. Not providing for a time as what it will take, can make it with anything. Even if the "acceptable" is to be late (eg a meeting), it will stop altogether for a few minutes.

He feels a deep inner responsibility for other people's time. This is evidenced even this fact: although the diction he usually is not very good, the question "what time" answers loudly, clearly and accurately.


Functional Analysis

The first function: the logic of relations (introverted thinking)

Analytical mind. The ability to discover cause-effect relationships. Tendency to abstract systems thinking. The ability to separate the important from the unimportant. Theorizing, the propensity for intellectual work, construction of abstract models.


The second function: the intuition of possibilities (extraverted intuition)

Understanding of the phenomena and events of the world. Create hypotheses about the laws of the universe. The desire to make life more meaningful, enriching it with new ideas. Avoiding senseless actions. Idealism, creativity, imagination, global thinking.


The third function: the ethics of relations (introverted feeling)

Formal compliance with the rules of conduct in dealing with people, to follow someone else's example. The desire to cultivate one's politeness and correctness. Very little understanding of the desires of others. Lack of confidence in the ethics of their actions. The attention to other people's experience of communication.


The fourth function: volitional sensation (extraverted sensation)

The weakness of their own volition potential. Principled rejection of the impacts to other people and the total rejection of force action on itself. Own weakness that is very painful. Decreased sense of ownership. The desire to avoid situations that might willed pressure.


The fifth function: the ethics of emotions (extraverted feeling)

Underestimation of the role of the emotional aspect in life. Inability to cope with their own negative emotions. Periodic blues, depression. The subconscious expectation of help from the outside. Thanks for the donated joy and good cheer. Insult to life in case of a lack of excitement and enjoyment. Foreign non-emotional, passive, emotional suggestibility.

The sixth function: sensation experiences (introverted sensation)

Low sensitivity. Weak ability to adjust their way of life. Waiting for help in the creation of comfort and coziness. Willingness to follow someone else's friendly advice. Unprepossessing appearance, difficulty with care.


The seventh function: the business logic (extraverted thinking)

Subconscious desire to stay informed of their loved ones and friends. Willingness to help them in difficult situations, if they so request. Rejection in the address criticism when it comes to business and professionalism. High working capacity does not always leads to significant results. Stereotyped actions in business endeavors. High automaticity of movements.


Eighth function: the intuition of time (introverted intuition)

Good, but LII almost does not realize its proficient sense of time. Foresees dangers standing in the way of other people, and stands ready to warn about it in time. Subconscious desire to not let anyone down with time. Understanding the great value of time. Good memory, taking care of someone else's time, punctuality, accuracy.
 

viche

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On the Wikisocion website there are several "Socioscope" descriptions available. These are among the best descriptions out there, but only a handful of them are translated from the original language. INTP is one of the one's not there. But I found a good Polish version and put it through Google Tranlate and the result is pretty serviceable. Behlod!
I've found several translated LII (Ti-Ne) profiles on 16types socionics forum: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/list.php/category/46-LII-INTj
 

Brontosaurie

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ban the fagtwat for his large letters.

fuck socioscope sociowhatever obscurantist bullshit.
 

pjoa09

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If you care anything about the functions the INTp/ILI is Introverted intuitive dominant and Extraverted Thinking auxilliary whilst the INTj/LII is Introverted thinking dominant and extraverted intuitive auxilliary. If you don't care about the functions you shouldnt even bother with socionics imo. When you say you relate to the description, do you really mean you relate to all the countless different descriptions the are of the different types? Cause I find all of them are very different and I couldn't imagine one person fitting them all.

Well I don't really. I just read the whole thing and then see which one fits me best.
Why shouldn't I bother with socionics? I am just trying to get the closest description of myself.

Maybe this might help explain why I can relate to both.

MBTI
Te - How is Thinking expressed when it is turned outward?
Extraverted Thinking's focus is order. It is organizing and ordering the outside world; organizing both people and things to achieve a purpose. It is using logic and reasoning in dialogue with others. It is directing action, calling plays, and making decisions. It is purposeful sorting out; discriminating among alternatives. Extraverted Thinking asks questions, collects information in an orderly way, and solves problems in a systematic manner.

Socionics
Te is efficiency of an action, technical processes, the accomplishment of work, the efficient and prudent use of resources, factual accuracy, and the acquisition of relevant and useful information. Te understands the difference between effective and ineffective behavior when performing a procedure or accomplishing a task, and aspires to increase the frequency of productive outcomes within a system.

On Sociotype the first paragraph of the Te for ILI is as following.

ILIs place great importance on factual accuracy and a basic understanding of how things work. Their views and perceptions naturally take into account any new factual information. For this reason, ILI's are often characterized by a nagging and constant sense of doubt, contradiction, and misinformation. They tend to be rather skeptical of other people's positions, and even frequently tend to question their own position. In groups the ILI will often question the validity of information being exchanged. Likewise, ILIs sometimes use a mocking and aggressive tone if they believe that the information being presented is wrong or absurd. ILIs can also be scrupulous in removing errors in facts and statistical data, especially in undertakings that they consider as high priorities. - See more at: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/types/ILI-INTp/#sthash.mil8SuKK.dpuf

So all I am saying with all these paragraphs is that the function descriptions aren't exactly the same.

They just overlap each other and it's really confusing. An MBTI Te is not a Socionics Te. Socionics Te seems to be MBTI Ti.
 

Ex-User (8886)

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I've done a better translation by putting the Russian version through Google Translate and then tried to tidy it up as best I can. Some of it is still utter nonsense so the offer above of a translation from a native Pole would be helpful. Please feel free to use and edit my new tranlation if it helps.

I don't know how to edit the original post though. So I'll just post the new version in the post below.

Thanks. I'll do it in a free time
 
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I disagree with you. I relate to ILI and MBTI INTP a lot. I can't relate to MBTI INTJ at all.

Well both MBTI and Socionics are trying to to explain the differences that exist in people. Because MBTI grew up in the West and Socionics grew up in the Eastern Bloc under Communism, they have significant differences in the models that they have developed but they both start with the concept that there are 16 different personalty types discovered by Carl Jung.

Socionics describes the use of unconsious function, which MBTI and subsequent MBTI authors don't do adequately.

Please Describe Me doesn't deal with it. John Beibe trys to deal with it but gets all mystical by alloting archetypal figures to unconscious functions, such as "old man", "Senex", "Trickster", "Demon" etc. How helpful is that really? There is something to it, but I think essentially it's one man's attempt to get to Model A.
Lenore Thomson sort of goes into it. I don't know what source she'd be using but she describes unconscious briefly in that book as "rejected alternatives" , a part of the "Type Lasagne" and she also has a diifficult to understand analogy of a ship in which unconsious functions are "crows nest functions", and the inferior function, is a dinghy trailing behind the back of the ship attached to a rope.

Socionics's Model A is FAR superior to anything that MBTI or subsequent MBTI focused writers have come up with. But it takes a while to get your head around it.

Socionics also accurately decribes relations between types, using Model A which is no small thing. In fact it is probably one of the most important discoveries ever. It can be used to accurately analyse almost any interaction between people ever, if their type is known.

"Why do I have Daddy issues?"
"Why do Obama and Putin hate each other?"
"Why doesn't she fancy me?"
"Why is Shades of Grey so popular?"
"Whay do I feel like an outsider among my own friends?"
"Why do I get the feeling my co-worker is watching me?"
"Why did the Beatles split?"
"Why did I never get promoted?"

All of these questions and more, Socionics can answer, but MBTI can't.
The only relationship advice I've seen from MBTI is that I'm supposed to settle down with an ENTJ, and that is probably the worst piece of relationship advice I could ever be given.
 

Cavallier

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ban the fagtwat for his large letters.

fuck socioscope sociowhatever obscurantist bullshit.

Okay, so Lordran probably should have put his wall of text behind a spoiler tag so it would not take up the whole thread but ultimately this is his thread.

That doesn't excuse your comment. First of all, several of my friends and indeed several of the long time members here are gay. Your use of the word "Fag" is derogatory and is not going to be tolerated. Also, "Fuck socioscope sociowhatever" isn't constructive. In the future try actually explaining why you feel that way instead of just shouting out garbage like a ranting drunk. That way you look less like an idiot and troll while members also take your contributions to the forum more seriously. Long story short, don't be crass and derogatory jerk.
 

Brontosaurie

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That doesn't excuse your comment. First of all, several of my friends and indeed several of the long time members here are gay. Your use of the word "Fag" is derogatory and is not going to be tolerated.

i for one like joking about minority oppression because the very idea is absurd, and i imagine an intelligent person would agree regardless of sexual orientation.

Also, "Fuck socioscope sociowhatever" isn't constructive.

since when is structure desirable?

In the future try actually explaining why you feel that way instead of just shouting out garbage like a ranting drunk. That way you look less like an idiot and troll while members also take your contributions to the forum more seriously. Long story short, don't be crass and derogatory jerk.

i've got a buffer. i'm not to blame if people don't bother reading my longer posts. i have previously provided elaborate explanations as to what exactly makes socionics such garbage. repeating that stuff would contribute to this forum's tendency of wordy masturbatory self-indulgence.

i don't want to be taken "seriously". that stuff is for anal STJ's.

having fun preaching "niceness" for lack of substance?
 
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Unless life itself forces LII to take care of his appearance, he is a pretty sad sight. Style, elegance, attractiveness - well, it's not important to him than the vast universe!

Do you, LII, not agree with that? Come, please, to the mirror.

Why is this so cute?
 
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