Need to be listened to?

[shadowdrums4]

Alright so I'm just going off one of my own pains but I was wondering if this might be an INTP thing. First off some background, you can skip this if you like:

I don't talk until I know someone pretty well. When I'm comfortable around them, I can talk nonstop. Especially if they are someone I feel I can bounce ideas off of. I like getting new perspectives on my idea to help make sure I haven't missed anything.

Now I won't really go into too much detail on this but I had this INTJ friend for a really long time. I could literally talk about anything with her. In fact knowing she was behind me for a while, gave me a lot of social confidence to talk to other people. We aren't friends anymore. I made some bad choices that really pissed her of and hurt her because of my complete disregard for myself. I'd rather not go further. Well I watched as at first she said "Just leave me alone a while so I can process these emotions" and after a while she said "I'm sorry but we should just drop this to an acquaintanceship. (The answer I had been terrified of receiving. ) After a final conversation, where she refused to listen to me at all, I agreed. Everything I said she basically disregarded as having no meaning. (After some reflection I believe she lost respect for me and therefore everything I said. Made all the worse because she used to look up to me.)

I thought about everything I could have said and realized from the nature of her answers that she just refused to listen and this frustrated me. She still sat with me at lunch because of our circle of friends. One day, out of the blue, she came up and said "No one at that table is rude enough to say this so I will. STFU no one cares what you have to say" my response was "Coming from you, that means nothing anymore" but I was lying. Eventually due to another little fight in our group, she and one other kid moved to another table. After that day I talked very little as if I was with strangers again. One of the other kids finally asked about it. "You've been a lot quieter these last few months and just a minute ago I saw this look like you wanted to add something but you didn't. What's going on?" and I explained that my friend had said that. "No you are okay. In comparison to us you really didn't talk that much, your responses and stories were just long winded, but there was nothing wrong with it." I began talking to this group again a little more but still held back a lot more than I used to.
To be honest, hearing "No one cares what you have to say" from the person whose opinion I used to listen to the most was painful. I started second guessing myself constantly. "Do they want to hear this? Do they care about this?" and my inner answer is almost always "probably not" or when I decide they do, they've moved on.
When explaining MBTI to my ENFJ friend, who I've become pretty close to, I showed her a pretty good description of INTPs. I told her what had happened and that it hurt. By then I had figured out that it hurt because I don't say things unless I think they are important, and if I'm not being listened to then I'm not going to explain. Why would I? What would the point be? Then as I bounced around the idea with her a little, we decided that it was because I like throwing my ideas at people. I like getting a different POV that I might not have thought about. I explained how I didn't like being told that "No one cares what I have to say" and she immediately said "I do. I'm always listening. Look at what you just showed me, you have interesting ideas and find so many interesting things."

Spoiler

I think I reverted back to not talking like people were strangers because I was so close to the INTJ that I was really scared and hurt when she wasn't listening anymore. She knows me so well, what if she was right? What if no one did care about my ideas? This led to a panic attack that left me numb. I was/am afraid of getting close to someone like that again and of her being right.

I told this fear to the ENFJ who simply said "If no one else, I care. I'll be the Boots to your Dora " Around her I slowly built up the confidence to talk again, though still not as much as I used to. It's more like, everyone started over with me trust-wise.

Question: Do INTPs need to be listened to in order to share their ideas? Why?
Has anyone experienced anything like this?
Is listening to you an important part of your relationships? Why?
Is this something that only applies to me or an INTP thing or a universal (human) thing?
How would/did you react if someone you respected wasn't listening to you?

 

[Vrecknidj]

Question: Do INTPs need to be listened to in order to share their ideas? Why?
Has anyone experienced anything like this?
Is listening to you an important part of your relationships? Why?
Is this something that only applies to me or an INTP thing or a universal (human) thing?
How would/did you react if someone you respected wasn't listening to you?

Every year I realize that I know more than I did the year before. At some point, it dawned on me that no matter what was going on in my life, there was a decent chance that simply waiting would reveal information that would help. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

As to the specifics, I can say that I usually want to be listened to when I'm talking to someone about something important. When I'm deeply involved in serious relationship issues, listening is absolutely critical. But, as far as I can tell, this is typical of all healthy human adults, so, I wouldn't think it's a type thing.

If someone I respected wasn't listening to me, I'd want to find out why. (Though much would depend upon the particular circumstances.)

Dave

 

[Alexk]

It's in our nature to not hold intelligent conversation with someone who hasn't proven themselves worthy of that conversation. So the people we would have these conversations with we'd expect to be listening, or else we wouldn't be telling them. So to not be listened to is a big blow.

I was good friends with, and eventually dated, an INFP that I had the same kind of, we listen to each other and we get it relationship, which was what I enjoyed about our relationship most. We broke up and our friendship has been a roller coaster since, with a sudden halt after a choice I made a couple months ago. It was a stupid mistake and we're only now beginning to talk again, even though we work together and see each other at parties. I've still voiced myself to people who listen, but they don't have the same enthusiasm, so it's not the same. I can live with it but I'm on the lookout for someone who can really get it.

Listening is a very important part of my relationships, mainly because I have, what is in my mind, great ideas and input, and I like to be able to vocalize them, as well as take in input. But I always keep in mind that people aren't always going to get it the way I do, so it's not worth getting worked up over if I'm the only person who thinks the way I do.

I couldn't say i have the experience to suggest this situation only applies to INTPs. But i would say that there are probably three kinds of people in regards to feelings about being listen to. Those that think everyones listening, those that don't but don't care, and those that don't and do care.

As far as how I would react, I always suggest to people that I care about that have a conflict with me, that if we look at it in the long run, we'll probably be friends again at some point if we're still in contact. It's only natural because of our personality. So its not worth it to keep up these walls. But that requires that they've had enough life experience to realize that you end up becoming friends with everyone whose wronged you if you really enjoyed being around that person in the first place. (assuming they haven't changed as a person). If they haven't experience that enough in the past, then that probably wouldn't change anything.

 

[Lobstrich]

I couldn't really say what you had done to that girl since she stopped respecting you.

But let's say she for some 'weird' EF reason got mad at you for saying something to her in a blunt way. Without any 'wrapping' (Using this example, since it happened to myself)

I couldn't really care less about her opinion.
I'd ask my real friends "Am I just talking bullshit all the time?"
And I'm saying real friends. Because your previous friend, in my scenario is an idiot.

I'm very closed up, like most INTP's. I tend to observe.. Analyze people, if you may.
And then I let them in. Then I start talking to them.
this will lead up to a process, where I kind of judge them. By talking to them,
figuring out what kind people they are.
And when that process is done.
We are friends.. Or not. Depending on wether or not I find this person to be an idiot or trustworthy person. I know it sounds very rigid, like I have this list.
But it's not, I'm just trying to explain it to you.
IF we finally become friends, that person can expect straight out "loyality to the death"
And I expect the same in return.
I do not want them to talk behind my back, because i do not talk about them.
I want them to be honest, because I am honest.
I want them to have my back, because I have theirs.
I basically expect, respect. Like I respect them.
And so on. This way I rarely become 'real' friends with someone.
I have had friends not respect me, in the way I respect them.
And then, I basically do not want to be their friend. If a person can't give me the respect I give them, if he/she can't refrain from talking behind my back like I, behind theirs. Then I tell them to leave me the fuck alone, basically.
This may seem a bit shallow or selfish. But honesty, trust, and respect. Are all very necessary to have a real friendship. In my opinion and without these things, there is no friendship. No relationship at all.

(I better end this talking stream now.)
Bottom line is that, if your friend was my scenario. I couldn't care less about her opinion because she was not a true friend. Because she would, through my process of talking and getting to know. She would also get to know me. Know that I am honest, I say things bluntly, like they are. For example.
I do not. wrap things up. And by becoming friends with my she would have to accept this.. And respect it. Like I respect her.


This was just my 'story' not really a direct answer to your question. Though, I hope that you can get some answers from it.

I was just assuming that you are, kind of the same with "getting to know, before friendship" when you said you didn't talk to people you didn't know.
If not.. Well then, this post is useless. Haha.

EDIT: To give you a direct answer. Yes. I believe you need to listen and be listened to.
When I do something, I love to get input. Bad or not. As long as it's genuine, and constructive.
That way, I can improve whatever it is. If I believe that it is imperfect.

So in that sense I love to listen. And I love to give people input on their stuff.

Plus. I love discussions, And what would a discussion be without listening? It would be nothing but a game where you take turns on spouting your opinion on a selected topic.

 

[soraya]

Question: Do INTPs need to be listened to in order to share their ideas? Why?
Has anyone experienced anything like this?
Is listening to you an important part of your relationships? Why?
Is this something that only applies to me or an INTP thing or a universal (human) thing?
How would/did you react if someone you respected wasn't listening to you?

I'm going to translate this into INTJ for you. Your questions have almost nothing to do with the situation you described. Your friend said that she did not care what you had to say. This is completely false and was, in fact, her trying to tell you something else.

For an INTJ the sharing of common visions, thoughts, and ideas are the most important thing in a relationship. Sharing obviously necessitates speaking but also listening. When the INTJ became friends with you she incorporated you into her Ni vision of the world. When we first meet people we often feel as though we can see straight to the core or essence of them. Usually, human nature being what it is, this is a disgusting experience, however, sometimes we see something really beautiful. Because you were good friends with her she must have seen this in you. She incorporated the potential that she saw in you into her Ni worldview.

IMPORTANT: when an INTJ does this they are saying, "I trust you completely and am thereby making myself entirely vulnerable to you." This is because our Ni is more important to us than anything else and a blow to the Ni is crippling beyond belief. We don't often trust because Ni is so unacceptable in society. We want to minimize our chances of being hurt.

Once you are part of this worldview the INTJ sees you as being inextricably linked to him or herself. Anything you do reflects back not only upon yourself but upon the INTJ as well. But, more than that, and far worse, if you make choices that hurt you or are bad for you or just degrading in general, the INTJ will see that as you betraying your own potential. You have just delivered the killing stroke to the Ni. You have destroyed the worldview. The alarm goes off in our heads. You're just like the rest of them. We were wrong to see anything in you. We can never trust you again. Without trust there can be no friendship. We let you into the inner sanctum and you burned it to the ground. You can talk shit about an INTJ all day and they won't care but destroy your own potential in our eyes and it is impossible to be forgiven.

In answer to your questions: When she said, "I don't care about what you have to say, " what she was actually saying was, "I made myself completely vulnerable to you because I trusted you and you completely betrayed me." She did care about what you had to say. She cared very much. She was just lashing out at you in the way that she knew would hurt the most, completely disregarding your ideas, because she felt that you had hurt her in the worst way by completely betraying her worldview. She knew very well that INTPs need to be listened to and have the opportunity to share ideas. It was probably the thing she valued most about you. It is important to INTJs too. When someone is unwilling to listen to our ideas that is the highest form of insult possible for us. It means that person does not respect our intelligence or competence. We know that these things are important and we understand that about you probably more than any other type but when we feel hurt we will reject that sharing and listening precisely because listening to your ideas makes us incredibly open to you.

On a side note, this INTJ must have cared for you a great deal. I could never push someone away that extremely unless I had been very close to them. Only people we care about very much are capable of hurting us to the extent that we are driven to such measures.

 

[Trebuchet]

That sounds extremely painful. Whatever led up to this incident, your friend's comment was incorrect. Speaking during conversation is not a flaw. Your friend's erroneous statement to you does not actually reflect on you.

You don't have to shut up. You don't have to second-guess everything you say, and people who hear you are not going to analyze your every word to find fault with it. I worry about the same things, but it simply isn't true. (Knowing that somehow doesn't stop me from worrying, but it does give me the courage to speak up.)

Give yourself time to recover. If you are hesitant about speaking up for a while, tell yourself that the hesitation will fade over time.

Question: Do INTPs need to be listened to in order to share their ideas? Why?

Of course they need to be listened to. It is terrible to share an idea only to find out no one was listening.

Has anyone experienced anything like this?

Oh, yes.

Is listening to you an important part of your relationships? Why?

My husband is a great listener, and I prefer friends who are, too. In order to be great listeners, they have to be able to discuss the topic at hand, so listening has to go both ways, and I work hard at that.

Is this something that only applies to me or an INTP thing or a universal (human) thing?

Universal and human. Maybe it manifests differently for INTPs. Like you, I tend to retreat after an incident like that. Others shrug it off. But everyone needs to be listened to.

How would/did you react if someone you respected wasn't listening to you?

Usually it is because the person is just distracted or tired, and I didn't realize it. When I do figure it out, I might be a bit irritated, but I do understand.

If someone has decided to permanently tune me out for some reason, I lose trust for them. In one case, this happened because I refused to hear some gossip at my workplace. A co-worker asked if I wanted the latest dirt on my boss, and I said "no, thank you." He never spoke civilly to me again. In another case, I disagreed with someone's bigoted remarks, and they refused to listen to another word from me. I also had someone behave like this who apparently found me embarrassing, and wanted a chance to be in the popular crowd, but that was way back in junior high school.

 

[soraya]

Yeah, for sure it doesn't justify what she said to you. Anyone who is thoughtful and intelligent ought to be able to provide their opinion or ideas and have them listened to. Listening is a crucial part of relationships. Obviously one of the reasons your friendship failed is because she was unable to listen to you. Like I said before, I think you must really have hurt her for her to have acted that way and there is definitely a reason for it (as I tried to explain) but it does not justify her unwillingness to listen. I know that for INTPs listening and being understood is super important, for us INTJs too btw, so don't stop using your functions and bouncing ideas and questions off of people. That's a great thing!

I have totally experienced this before. One of my best friends, who is INTP, once refused to listen when I brought up a problem in our friendship. I felt he was being passive aggressive and I wanted to try to resolve the issue through suggesting better communication. He ignored me and it hurt a lot. It happens to us all. I think the need for listening and understanding is a universal need, not specific to INTPs. I think it is more important to some of us than to others though. Seems to be more important to introverted types. It might even be more important to types like INTP and INTJ because we both feel so alienated all the time. Having someone to listen and understand is a rare and amazing thing for us.

 

[Trebuchet]

Soraya makes a very good point that the INTJ was probably feeling hurt. I have a lot of INTJ friends, and they tend to be the people closest to me, but I can tell you I am very careful of their feelings, because they are very sensitive, especially to criticism or embarrassment.

Please note, this merely explains why this INTJ behaved so nastily. It does not excuse it.

Apologies for any overgeneralization of the INTJ personality. I am basing this on my friends and observations only.

 

[shadowdrums4]

Lots of great replies here.

Soroya, It actually helps to know that lashing like that came from us being so close. I was actually thinking I was stupid to think we were close since she was able to say that. She's known me for about ten years and I assumed it was something she considered a problem from the beginning but she ignored for the sake of getting to know me better. It means a lot to know that wasn't true. I guess I already knew that (She told me once that I was the sister she never had after revealing some painful things in her past.) but it helps to get confirmation.

Trebuchet, it's actually really good to know that retreating like that won't last forever. Hearing that the statement was false helped quite a bit too. Even thought the ENFJ told me the same thing, part of me wonders "Is she lying?"

Lobstrich, you're right in that I analyze people before opening up. That's part of why it hurt so much, because this was a person that I let in for ten years who had helped me through some of the roughest times of my life. In a way she was back up for me. She was in percussion with me and she was who I went and played in front of to help my nerves because I could rely on her to be completely honest and constructive. She was very helpful in picking apart my ideas too. This is something that I haven't found in other friends. Everyone else mostly says "Yeah that's really cool" but don't have much to add because I was the reason they heard it to begin with. The INTJ would be able to pick it apart on the spot or come back later "Hey remember a couple days ago? Well I looked it up and here's some more on it......" As much as I love my other friends, I don't get this out of them.

I know I'm probably going to have to work to be able to let someone else in like I let her in. It's so strange how I don't mind being alone as in by myself, but not having that person to bounce ideas off of really bothers me. I don't know if I'm necissarily lonely, but I think that's the best word for it. I guess after some recovery time, I'll be able to open up to my ENFJ friend. (Anyone want to warn me about things like doing something that hurts me being what will kill the friendship?) I wish I had known that before, I would have made that decision completely differently. (I haven't said what it is because I'm embarrassed about it. I guess she didn't see that.) Live and learn I suppose. I really hope that someday we can become friends again. When I'm around her now (I see her in drumline) I get pretty scared and mess up more or at least I did for a while.

Anyway thanks for the replies. You were all really helpful. Needing to be listening to seems to be a universal thing, but I guess introverts are more likely to look back and see if they are or not. I don't know if that made sense at all.

 

[Starfruit M.E.]

Makes sense to me.

If someone doesn't listen to me from the first meeting, I get irritated and don't like that person much. To me that says that what I say isn't valuable to them, which in turn says that they don't really care about me. It also says that they don't respect me enough just listen even if they disagree or don't care. If that is the case, I have to figure that the motivation for the conversation is not to receive my care, learn from me, or to get to know me, but to instead get something from me/use me. It's just selfish not to listen. It's also selfish not to speak.

I like to be listened to because I gain confidence in agreement and acceptance. I like to listen because I care about the other person and want to give them that same thing. I want to speak because I want to give the other person the chance to care about me. It's better to be vulnerable than to close your heart and never accept that level of care. Just focus on the other person and it should all work out. All conversation focused on the other person has the ability to turn out well since you let them care for you and you care for them. Conversation focused on yourself usually ends badly as you never give back and the other person walks away unsatisfied.

 

[Mary]

Question: Do INTPs need to be listened to in order to share their ideas? Why?
Has anyone experienced anything like this?
Is listening to you an important part of your relationships? Why?
Is this something that only applies to me or an INTP thing or a universal (human) thing?
How would/did you react if someone you respected wasn't listening to you?

Do INTPs need to be listened to in order to share their ideas? Why?
Yes, 'cause the only way to share is to be listened to/read.

Has anyone experienced anything like this?
Yes. A little tip from my experience: Don't try to tell your fellow third graders about atomic theory and quantum physics. It doesn't work.

Is listening to you an important part of your relationships?
Yes. I give undivided attention to my friends and expect at least minimal attention from them in return.
Why?
'Cause thats how I operate. I like to talk about things I'm passionate about A LOT. So I think it's only fair to give people a listening ear for things they're passionate about. Even if it's my ESFJ's OMG-WHICH-BOY-SHOULD-I-CHOOSE exclamations. (Which are, to be honest, as amusing as they are interesting)


Is this something that only applies to me or an INTP thing or a universal (human) thing?
No. I'm an INFJ who fits INTP stereotypes so it's definately not just you. It may not be universal, i.e., crazy drug addicts who aren't "all there" may not care, but most people do.

How would/did you react if someone you respected wasn't listening to you?
If it's becoming habitual of them to roll their eyes/say rude things while I'm talking, I generally become very quiet and spend less time with them. I lose my respect for them AND at the same time question whether or not my ideas are interesting/valid. Then I find a new person to talk to. It's happened before, when I realized my friend demanded complete attention when she was talking and would shrug off any of my attempts to share ideas.

Edit:
I forgot to add that my INTJ friend would never do something like that to me or anyone else she genuinely respects. Your INTJ friend is probably very immature.
My INTJ friend is one of the best listeners I have ever met.