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Necessary Context

zago

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Hello, my name is zago. I belonged to INTPc since 2007, but I can't stand those assholes any more. The fuckers locked my farewell thread for no reason! How rude. I found that INTPc generally was a rude place. It's kind of cute until you realize how miserable they all are.

So here I am. I probably won't post much unless I feel like I have something epic to say, which is in fact why I registered in the first place--in an unexpected moment of clarity, I sat in front of my computer and birthed 2 essays which I will probably post here once I sense I have established a presence.

Some of my topics are political, and I'm warning you ahead of time, I don't like leftism. As I try to hone my understanding of government, rights, and history, I may argue quite a bit. I try to remain respectful, though. I'm particularly interested in getting to the bottom of political philosophy right now, so expect debate.

I have some open response questions that perhaps you would like to answer, and based on whatever insight I see, I feel that I will have gotten to know you all much better:

1. What is critical thinking, and can it be taught? If so, how?
2. Why is Fascism/Nazism generally on the right of the political spectrum?
3. Do you think psychedelic drugs can be useful as a means of psychotherapy?
4. What is your opinion on the song "Teenage Dream" by Katy Perry? Why?
5. Do you believe in good and evil? What characterizes each?
6. How do you feel about Ayn Rand and her philosophy? Why?
7. Why is freedom terrifying?
8. Cognitive processes: what is your current mental model on their interplay?
9. How does one overcome painful/traumatic memories?
10. Would you like to live past 100? Why or why not?
 

Bird

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Edit your post while I'm reading it?


Pisses me off every time.
 

zago

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Edit your post while I'm reading it?


Pisses me off every time.

Noscript was on and totally messed up all my formatting. First post technical difficulties.
 

Bird

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I'm just in a mood.
I'm sorry.


Now to address one of your questions.

6) Her philosophy is too idealistic and
unrealistic. Humans aren't capable of
behaving in such a manner. We're much
too animalistic and we have not
domesticated ourselves enough to have
entirely lost our survival instincts of
putting ourselves first.
 

zago

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6) Her philosophy is too idealistic and
unrealistic. Humans aren't capable of
behaving in such a manner. We're much
too animalistic and we have not
domesticated ourselves enough to have
entirely lost our survival instincts of
putting ourselves first.

Mind being a little more specific? Perhaps with an example? Behave in what manner? Plus, Rand supports putting one's self first.. but I sense you may have meant that differently?
 

The Gopher

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Firstly welcome

7. If you are completely free you have to rely on your self only. So it's almost impossible as you can't do anything you want without consequences. But I assume you mean partial freedom, as in you rely on a regular income and stores to buy food. Why it is terrifying? Well you can't be completely free with friends (and if you try you will soon lose them), most people even INTP need people that understand us. I would discuss more but as freedom doesn't exist I don't see the point.


10. No I plan to die far before that, unless I am in good physical shape at 100. Why not? Well not much you can do at one hundred I might become the most epic gamer in the world with all that spare time but...
 

gnome

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I'll answer number 3.

Yes. Too much to type on this subject. I view that psychedelics are for the most part "mind expanding". What that means would require me to type out way more crap than I feel like right now.

For further study you can youtube/wikipedia these names : Timothy Leary, Rick Strassman, Terrance Mckenna and Stanislav Grof.


A lot of people on INTPc seem to have sand in the vag.
 

zago

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Firstly welcome

Thanks for your thoughts... PS where does your name come from? zago comes from "za gophar" which was a previous name I used, which came from "the gopher" because I've always loved the movie Caddyshack, especially the gopher.
 

zago

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I'll answer number 3.

Yes. Too much to type on this subject. I view that psychedelics are for the most part "mind expanding". What that means would require me to type out way more crap than I feel like right now.

For further study you can youtube/wikipedia these names : Timothy Leary, Rick Strassman, Terrance Mckenna and Stanislav Grof.


A lot of people on INTPc seem to have sand in the vag.

It's a topic I find persistently challenging. I don't want to reveal how I would answer these questions, not yet at least, but I am fairly well acquainted with the names you mentioned.
 

The Gopher

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Thanks for your thoughts... PS where does your name come from? zago comes from "za gophar" which was a previous name I used, which came from "the gopher" because I've always loved the movie Caddyshack, especially the gopher.

COOL!!!! ehem well the gopher came from several things firstly it's my nickname (to be completely honest I haven't the foggiest why[It was the first thing that popped into my head{there was someone else with the same name at this place so I said just call me gopher<and it stuck>}])

However since then I have discovered some reasons why gopher is a good name. I did watch a clip from that movie about the gopher but not the whole thing. "za gopha he zis most exalanta" and that was not a quote for those who think it is.
 

Lobstrich

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Try to avoid reading Bird's answer to your question, her answer is invalid (She's an f.. AN F!)

I'll answer four of them if I may, hehe. or maybe not answer them, as they all seem to seek a subjebtive opinion. So I'll give you my opinion =)

2. That has a very simple and logical answer: Because both Fascism is a right wing political view. And National socialism is a branch of fascism. Therefore it is ALWAYS on the right of the political spectrum and not generally. You're basically asking "Why do people generally put movies about war into the 'War' genre."

7. Is it terrifying? Who ever decided it's terrifying? I don't believe it is. But alot of people seem to subconsiously think it's terrifying, one theory I have on this is religion, alot of people are going back to religion (At least here in Denmark, were Atheism is very common) Because it is genuinly terrifying for some people to think "Is there REALLY nothing out there? Why the heck am I here then? What am I supposed to do? Nothing?!" So the seek out an explanation and a guide book that tells you what is right and wrong, and why that is right and wrong. If that isn't enough, it also have a very fleshed out tale about how we all came to be, and then we can go back to simple life. And enjoy it. There was a guy whose name I don't remember, that once (Well it was actually more like 2 years ago, he's still alive) said something along the lines of "The more we learn about the universe, the more pointless it seems" The more and more we learn about this and that from science, the more the bible (or whatever religion) seems like a stupid book, and by abandoning this "guide book" the more we have to use our own morals and actually stop for a minute and say to ourselves "Am I really okay with this?"

9. Again, subjective. You ask "how does one..." As if there's one greater rule of which we can all follow and go through painful 'stuff' But there isn't.. There's alot of people who cry rivers and ned attention, and even actively seek out attention, because that's what works out for them. There's those who don't seek it out but hope someone will come to them.. Personally I don't do either, I like just thinking about it, processing it. And then move on.

10. Yes I would love to! As impossible as it sounds, I envy those who haven't been born yet, they get to experience "star wars in real life" Which I would personally love to. Of course there's drawbacks of growing that old.. The people you care about die, and you're left back alone, to do what you've done for the last 30 years anyway.
 

Lobstrich

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I'll answer number 3.

Yes. Too much to type on this subject. I view that psychedelics are for the most part "mind expanding". What that means would require me to type out way more crap than I feel like right now.

For further study you can youtube/wikipedia these names : Timothy Leary, Rick Strassman, Terrance Mckenna and Stanislav Grof.


A lot of people on INTPc seem to have sand in the vag.

I've ready about Leary myself, but only him. But I know that all this "drugs cures depression" Are only theories. Non have come so far to actually prove it to be helpful.

As far as I know.
 

Jennywocky

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Hey zago, good to see you. :)

2. Why is Fascism/Nazism generally on the right of the political spectrum?

Well, it's a conservative mindset, rather than progressive. In Nazi Germany, the goal was for Germany to reclaim its lost power/prestige in the world after the heavy punishments levied against it from WWII and restore financial stability. It did this by appealing to an ideal/"glory day" version of Germany, and found scapegoats within the culture to blame the issues on. It's the same mentality seen with xenophobic cultures, where there's a call to block out new ways of thinking and new diversity within the culture, to go back to a simpler more homogeneous way of life.

3. Do you think psychedelic drugs can be useful as a means of psychotherapy?
I never thought of it, actually. It might be good for breaking out of old thought patterns; I just question whether there's enough controllable coherence permitted for one to sift through things and come up with real answers.

4. What is your opinion on the song "Teenage Dream" by Katy Perry? Why?
When I was twenty, I would have dissed on it for seeming trendy and vapid. In my 40's, I kind of moved past that and think it's sort of whimsical. And she seems attracted to the guy because he's into her regardless of what she looks like or how well she fits some social image. He gives her a big rush because he makes her feel young again, and has glimpses of that teenage romantic idealism that seems to lurk under the surface even the reality of life has beaten us all down. Perry's writing typically is deeper than maybe her song genre allows her to appear (Firework is pretty inspirational, Peacock is coarsely witty, TGIF self-deprecating, Pearl meaningful, Circle the Drain a real wake-up call and a matter of self-respect.)

7. Why is freedom terrifying?
Because there are no answers. Once you are free, you are not restrained. You are capable of anything. This terrifies society, for obvious reasons. And it also means you are utterly responsible for your choices and how your life turns out. If you are following rules, you can always gripe about the rules if you don't like them, and if you fail, you can blame the rules; but with freedom, it's all at your own feet. Your life is yours to make or break.

And if ambiguity terrifies you, or you feel the need to justify everything you do, well, you're up the creek. You still have to make decisions to change your life.

There is also no prescribed reward patten in a free life. You might live freely, yet never realize your dreams or get what you want... but the reward is in living freely, and not locked within an arbitrary structure.

10. Would you like to live past 100? Why or why not?
I don't know. If my body has become a prison for me, no. And sometimes I just feel tired and old as time, and I want things to be over... even when they're good. It's hard to watch all that you knew in life continually pass on, pass on, pass on... people you've loved, things you've known, the world as you know it. You can't help but get rooted in a time, and then feel slowly that your time is passing.
 

zago

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Thanks for replying, lobstrich and jennifer.

This seems to have run its short course, so for the hell of it, I guess I will provide short answers to all of these questions.

1. "Why?" is a child's favorite question. I don't believe that critical thinking is something you have to be "smart enough" to possess. At the heart of critical thinking is having the honesty to say "I'm not really convinced." Overall I just get annoyed when people say that critical thought should be taught in schools. If critical thought were encouraged in schools, lots of people would just walk out. It's a moot point, and it only addresses a distant symptom of the problem with schools. I think some steps can be made by giving kids problems to solve and teaching about logical fallacies and such, but ultimately the first and most important step is the one anyone can do.

2. Fascism and Nazism should probably be on the left of the political spectrum. This would make a lot more sense. A spectrum with only 2 poles, logically, should only deal with 1 variable. That variable is the degree of control which the government asserts: anarchy being on the far right, communism being on the far left. I fail to at all realize how free market capitalism and individualism coincided with Nazi Germany. If anyone else wants to try to explain, go ahead. I could say more I suppose but let's keep it short.

3. The more I think about this question, the less I know. If at all it would have to be guided for most people, because lord only knows how many people have used LSD and gotten nothing from it.

4. "Teenage Dream" is a fucking awesome song, and she is really hot in the music video.

5. Good is reality, evil is deception. Evil always appears beautiful and promising until the trap is sprung. Good is often ugly and disturbing.

6. Ayn Rand may go a little too far, but I think it is certainly one of the top conceptual schemes available.

7. Freedom is terrifying because it means anything could happen, even if it isn't at all what you want. There is an unmistakable comfort in at least pretending that you are in control. If you did whatever you wanted to do, what unimaginable consequences might reveal themselves? Playing it straight and narrow is at least somewhat predictable. In a political sense, freedom is terrifying because it involves letting go over the comfort of trying to exert control, whether the control is effective or not. It means that people are going to be free to act how they please, and that may seem scary or at the very least, not what you would have considered perfect.


Maybe other 3 later...
 

nexion

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Hello zago. I am not too fond of politics, but in the event I go to the politics subforum and find something which is of interest, I post there. Although, on the political perspective, I am slightly more to the left than right.

As for your questions: I will answer those which I currently am able to:

5. No
6. I am also not too fond of objectivism. Attainment of objective knowledge through subjective senses and perceptions is not a very plausible idea. Her philosophy undermines subjective aspects of culture and society. I refuse to live only for myself. I can see why the philosophy might be greatly appealing, however.
7. Because it does not yet exist.
10. Nothing matters so long as life terminates. The only real shame would be if it never ended. That said, I would not like to live past 100.
 

gnome

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It's a topic I find persistently challenging. I don't want to reveal how I would answer these questions, not yet at least, but I am fairly well acquainted with the names you mentioned.

What psychedelics have you done so far?
 

Black Rose

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You equate Individualism/free market capitalism with the right side of the political spectrum.

Why not the Left?

What is the relationship between Individualism, free market capitalism and the purpose of government that should be upheld?

Hint: Left and Right view morality differently.
 

EvilScientist Trainee

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4. What is your opinion on the song "Teenage Dream" by Katy Perry? Why?

It makes me all fuzzy inside. Because I'm a feeler, and that's what feelers feel.

Ok, now, more seriously. Teenage Dream makes me think of something I lack. I've been a pretty weird dude my whole life, and I miss someone that likes me for who I am. And at the same time, it makes me feel really depressed, because that person is very unlikely to exist. When i hear it, It makes me feel like I should life my life at best, with someone I really like - and who likes me.

2. Why is Fascism/Nazism generally on the right of the political spectrum?

I hope that this isn't controversial as I think it will be, but I think that left wing = More power to the people, while right wing = More power to powerful people. That's why communism is at one end and Fascism is at the other.

(Goes on wikipedia to see something about the subject)... Ok, My thoughts are just not right. Take a read on it, yourself. They have a cool picture with the spectrum. But my ideas are not too far-fetched, anyway.

9. How does one overcome painful/traumatic memories?

New traumatic memories. Or understanding what makes them traumatic.
 

Lobstrich

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You equate Individualism/free market capitalism with the right side of the political spectrum.

Why not the Left?

What is the relationship between Individualism, free market capitalism and the purpose of government that should be upheld?

Hint: Left and Right view morality differently.

Who are you saying this to?
 

Solitaire U.

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1. What is critical thinking, and can it be taught? If so, how?

Reasoning with an analytic approach, obviously teachable, but better when transparently presented as a universal learning appliance to encourage it's autonomous use. I disagree with your rationale re: "Why is a child's favorite..." and get the impression from your vague comments that you're promoting some absurd notion related to 'Passive students equate to better schooling'. The irony of this is that it's true if you're a teacher or administrator, but the contemporary approach of standardized curriculum universally applied is more along the lines of indoctrination than education.

2. Why is Fascism/Nazism generally on the right of the political spectrum?

Pass...the question means nothing to me.

3. Do you think psychedelic drugs can be useful as a means of psychotherapy?

I think they already are. What are Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac, and their dozens of antidepressant cousins if not down-tuned, euphorically-neutralized psychedelics? Acute hallucinations aren't necessarily obligatory to chemically-induced altered perceptions.

4. What is your opinion on the song "Teenage Dream" by Katy Perry? Why?

Never heard of it...YouTubed...aborted 10 seconds in. LoveDanceDon'tEverLookBack...shit concept from the gate that's been done a million times.

5. Do you believe in good and evil? What characterizes each?

I believe in logic, common sense, pain and suffering. Categorize them however you wish.

6. How do you feel about Ayn Rand and her philosophy? Why?

I recognize Rand as neither philosopher nor intellectual. I do think she is an excellent example of her melodramatically-obsessed era. Her well-known work of fiction published in 1943 would be the utter epitome of this. Her involvement with MPAPAI, House Un-American Activities Committee, and American Writers Association disqualifies her from serious consideration.


7. Why is freedom terrifying?

Because anarchy is incorrectly defined as 'chaos'.


8. Cognitive processes: what is your current mental model on their interplay?

Simplify or elaborate this question...it is currently unapproachable within the context of this forum.


9. How does one overcome painful/traumatic memories?

By developing thicker skin, or becoming affectedly jaded, your choice.


10. Would you like to live past 100? Why or why not?

I would like to live till I die, and could essentially care less about when that will occur.

I remember you from INTPc. You're the guy that soaks his political threads in gasoline and then complains about being mistreated after they predictably burst into flames and scorch him.
 

BigApplePi

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1. What is critical thinking, and can it be taught? If so, how?
Just think of the opposite to the subject matter, logically. Promote that.
2. Why is Fascism/Nazism generally on the right of the political spectrum?
Because the stricter the principles, the more tightly they have to be held. Think rigidity. That means adherence avoiding change.
3. Do you think psychedelic drugs can be useful as a means of psychotherapy?
Though I've never taken any, I'd like to try. I would think they'd give a radically different view. Any new perspective can be therapeutic, but with the risk of erroneous interpretation. It's like the amusement park fun house experience. It's shows off a relief from a dull world.

Added: Solitaire mentioned Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac. These drugs are okay as long as temporary. I'd hate to think of any drug controlling me!
4. What is your opinion on the song "Teenage Dream" by Katy Perry? Why?
Pure joy. Things only look good. I only heard it once. What kind of opinion are you looking for?

Added: You mean you don't think well of it?
5. Do you believe in good and evil? What characterizes each?
Sure do. Useful concepts. Good is about constructiveness; bad, destructiveness. The question is, constructive about what?
6. How do you feel about Ayn Rand and her philosophy? Why?
I reserve judgment.
7. Why is freedom terrifying?
It is terrifying because it threatens having no values at all. Values are life.
8. Cognitive processes: what is your current mental model on their interplay?
Don't understand this Q. You mean ALL those functions?

Added: I like that they show differences and attempt to balance off on each other. I think this forum is working on how they work.
9. How does one overcome painful/traumatic memories?
By facing what they are in terms of their absence. By approaching them from a safe place.
10. Would you like to live past 100? Why or why not?
Yes if my health holds up. The more time the better, but it should be "quality time.":D Depends on the rate of decline and its prospects I think.

__________________________
Real good questions, zago. Hope you will enjoy this forum. If you don't and say why, will you allow a chance for reform?
 
Last edited:

Bird

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Try to avoid reading Bird's answer to your question, her answer is invalid (She's an f.. AN F!)



I don't understand. Why was this
necessary?
 

Jennywocky

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I remember you from INTPc. You're the guy that soaks his political threads in gasoline and then complains about being mistreated after they predictably burst into flames and scorch him.

Well... there was that... :phear:
 

Claverhouse

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"Kameraden, Die Rotfront Und Reaktion Erschossen"

Welcome. I haven't inclination to tackle each point; but:


Nazi/rightist:

Well, it's a conservative mindset, rather than progressive. In Nazi Germany, the goal was for Germany to reclaim its lost power/prestige in the world after the heavy punishments levied against it from WWII and restore financial stability. It did this by appealing to an ideal/"glory day" version of Germany, and found scapegoats within the culture to blame the issues on. It's the same mentality seen with xenophobic cultures, where there's a call to block out new ways of thinking and new diversity within the culture, to go back to a simpler more homogeneous way of life.



This in itself is left propaganda fare. Nazism was heavily progressive in a technocratic way ( divided between the idealism of the futurist technocrats such as Speer and the idealism of the 'simple life' craftsmen like Himmler [ who looked forward to lots and lots of little villages staffed by SS-men ] ) and derived equally from the French Great Revolution with bolshevism. In the end it is just another ( dead-ended ) form of liberalism.

As republicans they hated Kaiserism, naturally; but they also disliked the conservatives ( represented by say, v. Papen and the Reichswehr ) who hoped to manipulate them or accommodate them; and were distrustful of the nationalists who sometimes voted with them in the Monkey House [ as Wilhelm called it ) and sometimes didn't. The movement --- which all it ever was rather than a party --- arose due to the end-times of WWII and without running in parallel to bolshevism as the main threat to Europe from then on would never have amounted to anything. They weren't that fond of capitalism and certainly not of credit-finance, which are both 'rightish' [ although again inspired by liberalism ] : any form of Autarchy in any nation, let alone a major nation confronts international free-market capitalism which crushes the upstart nation...


Oh, and anti-semitism was a left-wing staple before they came along, and continues to be, disguised as hatred of Israel --- although brilliantly technologically innovative, they were in general very unoriginal. Their best bet would have been to ditch the anti-semitism, which after vote-winning when out of power was allowed to die down from 1933 to 1940 ( so was not essential ), and ally with Leon Trotsky, who really was the Ultimate Fascist, and could have rallyed disaffected leftists everywhere against Stalin.


And that's not even getting into the ramifications of the Strasser brothers who led the original leftist strain in the movement, betrayed by Hitler's pact with the Army to crush the SA; the SA itself, which was strongly leftwards compared with Himmler's SS, and whose remnants might have risen post WWII to crush the SS; and the phenomenon of 'Beefsteak Nazis' ( 'Brown outside, Red inside' ) who retained their communist beliefs --- Hitler preferred ex-communists as party members as tough mental fighters who thought in the same way and were not held back by scruples, however people who've switched once may switch back...


Some people think Martin Bormann was a communist plant ( just as the soviets had plenty of plants in FDR's Department of State, and hidden members in most political parties in most countries back then ); but I'd point out it makes little difference other than whether he betrayed them: he and Goebbels etc. were already so crude and mentally brutal that there was no substantial difference whether they called themselves communist/nazi or left/right.


Generally, as with anti-semitic fantasies & conspiracy stuff, it's the post-nazis, those who have admired them since, who have formed the imagery of naziness, and they, in reaction to the post-war settlement of communism and capitalism have generally been 'right-wing'.


And nuts.

[ That is not an insult; just descriptive of the paranoid crazy. Which again seems an insult... *despairs* ]






Claverhouse :phear:
 

Inappropriate Behavior

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Too many questions....and I loathe Ayn Rand with a passion but I'm tired of going into it with every person who comes in here thinking they're "in" on something special. Let's just say if I could go back in time, I'd first shoot Rand and then flip a coin to decide whether I shoot Stalin or Hitler second.

On that note, Welcome to the forum! :D
 

Mary

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1. What is critical thinking, and can it be taught? If so, how?
2. Why is Fascism/Nazism generally on the right of the political spectrum?
3. Do you think psychedelic drugs can be useful as a means of psychotherapy?
4. What is your opinion on the song "Teenage Dream" by Katy Perry? Why?
5. Do you believe in good and evil? What characterizes each?
6. How do you feel about Ayn Rand and her philosophy? Why?
7. Why is freedom terrifying?
8. Cognitive processes: what is your current mental model on their interplay?
9. How does one overcome painful/traumatic memories?
10. Would you like to live past 100? Why or why not?

1. Critical thinking is the ability to examen an idea from multiple angles. It can be taught from an early age by encouraging thinking and artistic abilities.
2. Because people don't understand how the spectrum works. To be honest, I divide governments based on how much control the have, not based on how "liberal" or "conservative" they are in the traditional sense.
3. No idea; haven't done enough research to pass judgement.
4. I dislike it intensely. It makes me feel uncomfortable unless I'm in a large group of strangers, in which case I don't mind dancing to it.
5. Yes. Good encourages creation and purity, evil encourages destruction and corruption.
6. I haven't read her in a while, I'd have to be more familiar with her to pass judgement.
7. It is not.
8. See http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=6582
9. By becoming adjusted to them, much like getting used to colder air.
10. No. I have a feeling I'd get very bored.
 

zago

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This is gonna be crazy..

Hello zago.

Hey :)

What psychedelics have you done so far?

DXM, mushrooms, and lots of salvia. Thankfully, I have gone from being a fanatic to being interested in moderation, perhaps to partake once every few months.

You equate Individualism/free market capitalism with the right side of the political spectrum.

Why not the Left?

What is the relationship between Individualism, free market capitalism and the purpose of government that should be upheld?

Not sure I understand.

4. What is your opinion on the song "Teenage Dream" by Katy Perry? Why?

It makes me all fuzzy inside.

Yay ;)

I hope that this isn't controversial as I think it will be, but I think that left wing = More power to the people, while right wing = More power to powerful people. That's why communism is at one end and Fascism is at the other.
From what history has shown, communism and socialism only claim to empower the people, but especially with communism, we see iron fisted authoritarian rule.

(Goes on wikipedia to see something about the subject)... Ok, My thoughts are just not right. Take a read on it, yourself. They have a cool picture with the spectrum. But my ideas are not too far-fetched, anyway.
I'll bone up. I suspect, though, that the important factor is not the morality of the left and the right, but merely the amount of control the government exerts. I doesn't matter, at all, what they are controlling--only that they control. Plus, the idea falls apart altogether when the government isn't really controlling anything. How can you have a "left" or "right" form of libertarianism if libertarianism doesn't even seek to use government as a means of enforcing morality?

1. What is critical thinking, and can it be taught? If so, how?

Reasoning with an analytic approach, obviously teachable, but better when transparently presented as a universal learning appliance to encourage it's autonomous use. I disagree with your rationale re: "Why is a child's favorite..." and get the impression from your vague comments that you're promoting some absurd notion related to 'Passive students equate to better schooling'. The irony of this is that it's true if you're a teacher or administrator, but the contemporary approach of standardized curriculum universally applied is more along the lines of indoctrination than education.

When I say a child's favorite question is "why?" I mean that they are specifically not passive in what they are exposed to. They demand sufficient justification for doing what doesn't immediately appear to be worth doing. I admire that. Then again, I think that we should have every right to kick them out if they are disruptive.


Simplify or elaborate this question...it is currently unapproachable within the context of this forum.
I'll explain what I think in terms of the INTP.

All functions seem to be equally a part of conscious thought, but our skill at using them diminishes as you go from dominant to inferior. INTPs crave social-network belonging as much as anyone, but have backwards ideas about how to achieve it.

The tertiary and inferior function thus form the "shadow," the area of consciousness that tends to get us in trouble. Si, the tertiary function, makes us aware of expectations and traditions -- another set of areas we wish to succeed in, but have little ability to do directly because to do so directly would seem irrational to us. Traditions, expectations, and social success, at face, are not particularly rational, but what we fail to see is that they aren't particularly irrational either. To try to approach these things directly, for the INTP, requires dishonesty--a 'fake' self. Furthermore, feeling an obligation towards these things forces the INTP to examine their rationality, if he is to invest the effort to 'fake' them.

Falling back on the dominant and auxiliary functions feels like a major risk because it means giving up these 2 realms which are also important to the INTP, but having done that, he relies on his strengths and the weaker areas fall into an acceptable level fulfillment, so the latter 2 functions don't need to constantly be nagging him because they are fulfilled via the dominant and auxiliary.

For example, perhaps an INTP hates clubs, but this seems to be how everyone goes out an socializes. Attempting to fulfill his expectations and gain social success he may go to clubs sometimes, but he never has a good time and doesn't seem to make connections he finds valuable. Better not to go to the clubs. But what will I do, he may think. Who knows? Do whatever you want, take the risk. The clubs were a definitely dead end, but doing what you want could lead to anything - probably good things, eventually.

I remember you from INTPc. You're the guy that soaks his political threads in gasoline and then complains about being mistreated after they predictably burst into flames and scorch him.
I sense passive aggression in your tone (of the whole post). Just saying, I may not be above inciting conflict, but neither are many other people, and I'm a bit less subtle about it. Furthermore, I was usually arguing alone against a veritable team of dissenters, because my views were fairly different than most others' at that place. If you look back, and I'm sure you won't (and neither would I), you'll see that I did put a lot of effort into responding carefully (as I am now) to my dissenters unless they were especially disrespectful, like madrigal, hustler, or qualia, for instance. Even then, I took special care to explain to them why I felt they were being immature, as I am with you now. As far as I know, we have never interacted before, at least in a meaningful way - you don't know me - and I have been harmless here - you have no specific reason to come to this thread and disseminate ill-will toward me, other than to appear above it all. If that's how it's gonna be, I recommend you take the simple step of ignoring me.

Yes if my health holds up. The more time the better, but it should be "quality time.":D Depends on the rate of decline and its prospects I think.

I agree. Living to 100 doesn't mean you get to 80 and then live your last 20 years in misery. Live to 100, and you'll probably be healthy through your 80s and maybe have problems in the 90s. Most people Are healthy through their 60s and have problems in their 70s. Gotta have problems some time, eh? People who live to a hundred simply had a longer time to enjoy good health - it is not as if they spend all those extra years in misery.

Real good questions, zago. Hope you will enjoy this forum. If you don't and say why, will you allow a chance for reform?
Thanks. I thought it was a good way to come in, just to ask some random shit on my mind and see what people thought.

Welcome. I haven't inclination to tackle each point; but:

Thanks, and that was a nice post. Impressive.

On that note, Welcome to the forum! :D

Thanks :D

1. Critical thinking is the ability to examen an idea from multiple angles. It can be taught from an early age by encouraging thinking and artistic abilities.

I hadn't thought of that, but I suppose it could be included in a definition of critical thinking. I tend to emphasize the 'critical' part, as in explaining why something is negative or, literally, unbelievable.
 

EvilScientist Trainee

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Re: This is gonna be crazy..

From what history has shown, communism and socialism only claim to empower the people, but especially with communism, we see iron fisted authoritarian rule.

Oh, yeah. I was refering to the theoretical communism. The communism that happened wasn't even close to give power to the people.
 

nexion

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Anarcho-communism. The ultimate ideal government and economy.
 

zago

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With this genre of music I like better Lilly Allens 'Fuck You'.

Perhaps I'll check it out. I really did enjoy her first album. "Smile" really does make me smile, as do some of the others like "Not Big," "LDN," and "Everything's Wonderful." She ain't half bad :cool:
 

EvilScientist Trainee

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With this genre of music I like better Lilly Allens 'Fuck You'.

I feel like Katy Perry is more romantic in her songs - despite being hidden beneath the I-kissed-a-girl looks she plays out.

Lilly Allen, however, tries to display a sweet look, but she's far more sarcastic and witty than she wants to show.

I like them both.
 

zago

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I feel like Katy Perry is more romantic in her songs - despite being hidden beneath the I-kissed-a-girl looks she plays out.

Lilly Allen, however, tries to display a sweet look, but she's far more sarcastic and witty than she wants to show.

I like them both.

That's actually kinda what I was thinking too. Hard to compare them. "Teenage Dream" is nothing but sweet.
 

Solitaire U.

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Hello, my name is zago. I belonged to INTPc since 2007, but I can't stand those assholes any more. The fuckers locked my farewell thread for no reason! How rude. I found that INTPc generally was a rude place. It's kind of cute until you realize how miserable they all are.

How ironic. You employ the coward's tactic of trashing another board and it's members by proxy in your maiden post ('assholes'...'fuckers', etc.), then have the arrogance to proclaim yourself harmless and me passive-aggressive.

It was your decision to make a spectacle of yourself. I'm just calling it like I see it in relation to your own comments, and will continue to do so when the compulsion strikes just as you will. As you correctly assumed, I took little notice of you on INTPc beyond the exact description I furnished based on what I observed. If you hadn't gone so far out of your way to identify yourself I'd have been spared the inconvenience of having to notice.

How many respondents before me made an effort to at least try to answer all your questions? You yourself have yet to even do so. I responded sincerely...if you have a problem with that it either means you shouldn't be asking the fucking questions to begin with, or your primary interest in asking the questions is conflict-oriented. Maybe the big kids at INTPc were just giving you what you asked for...
 

Bird

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meow
 

zago

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How ironic. You employ the coward's tactic of trashing another board and it's members by proxy in your maiden post ('assholes'...'fuckers', etc.), then have the arrogance to proclaim yourself harmless and me passive-aggressive.

Coward's tactic? Shit, they know how I feel about them. It is what it is--they are fuckers and assholes. How is hating on some other board harmful? I don't give a shit if they don't like it; this isn't their board. You, on the other hand, have come into MY thread and said something that did not sit well with me, and I shall defend my territory and my honor! And I'm right, and you're wrong. Plus, you aren't supposed to put an apostrophe in "its." That wasn't a contraction. Furthermore, if I'm going to trash a board I just came from, why shouldn't it be in my maiden post? At least I'm not 400 posts in, still like "GOD DAMN THOSE BASTARDS AT INTPC!!" I mean, it wasn't at all out of context.

It was your decision to make a spectacle of yourself. I'm just calling it like I see it in relation to your own comments, and will continue to do so when the compulsion strikes just as you will. As you correctly assumed, I took little notice of you on INTPc beyond the exact description I furnished based on what I observed. If you hadn't gone so far out of your way to identify yourself I'd have been spared the inconvenience of having to notice.
Who comes to people's introduction threads to talk shit? And what I'm saying is, if you didn't pay much attention to me, why are you trying to say things about me at all? Generally you aren't supposed to speak about things you don't know about. The real irony in this situation is that you say I cause my own misery by being abrasive, and yet, you were abrasive before I was in this thread, and now you're whining about it. Lastly, you've convicted me of what I have not yet done. If I ever "call it like I see it" about one of your threads and you think I've disrespected you, go ahead and shoot me down.

How many respondents before me made an effort to at least try to answer all your questions? You yourself have yet to even do so. I responded sincerely...if you have a problem with that it either means you shouldn't be asking the fucking questions to begin with, or your primary interest in asking the questions is conflict-oriented. Maybe the big kids at INTPc were just giving you what you asked for...
False assumptions: 1. you had to answer the questions, 2. I had to answer my own questions, 3. we are only talking about your answers to my questions and not your snotty welcome as well, 4. INTPc is at all a legitimate excuse for anything.
 

Jennywocky

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How many respondents before me made an effort to at least try to answer all your questions? You yourself have yet to even do so.

Yes, I kind of bailed on answering the rest for that very reason. It's rather like it was elsewhere... not much interest in actual engagement, just dogmatically espousing one's view. I'll invest elsewhere, thanks.

Clave offered an in-depth clarification to one of my comments, though, which I appreciated and will give me grounds to do some reading of my own in order to frame/check what he said. Thanks, CH.
 

zago

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Yes, I kind of bailed on answering the rest for that very reason. It's rather like it was elsewhere... not much interest in actual engagement, just dogmatically espousing one's view. I'll invest elsewhere, thanks.

Ok now I'm confused. I have carefully responded to every single person who has replied to this thread, and the only person I have lashed out at is someone who clearly disrespected me. Am I taking crazy pills, Jennifer? Just because I have some opinions you disagree with doesn't mean I'm dogmatic. A mountain of evidence says otherwise:

zago said:
Mind being a little more specific? Perhaps with an example? Behave in what manner? Plus, Rand supports putting one's self first.. but I sense you may have meant that differently?

It's a topic I find persistently challenging.

If anyone else wants to try to explain, go ahead.

Not sure I understand.

I'll bone up.

How can you have a "left" or "right" form of libertarianism if libertarianism doesn't even seek to use government as a means of enforcing morality?

I hadn't thought of that

How is it implemented, though?

Perhaps I'll check it out.

That's actually kinda what I was thinking too.

Clearly, Jennifer, I do want to engage with people and am highly willing to do so as long as I feel that I am given the same respect anyone deserves. I'm not sure why people are surprised when I tell someone off after having insulted me. That's something I've learned from my students. If I made even a mildly disrespectful remark to them, they would always tell me off, and while I didn't admit it at the time, I feel now that I usually deserved it. I teach at a tough school and it has taught me a lot about this kind of stuff. Anyway, that really frustrates me, that you still think that about me.

Clave offered an in-depth clarification to one of my comments, though, which I appreciated and will give me grounds to do some reading of my own in order to frame/check what he said. Thanks, CH.
Sure, it enriched us all. I couldn't have offered that same explanation, though (why would I even have asked if I could?). I don't see how his explanation is proof that I don't do my best to provide my own adequate discussion.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Welcome; is your username pronounced Zah*goh or Zay*goh?

1. What is critical thinking, and can it be taught? If so, how?

Analytical thinking can be learned through technique, though it still doesn't beat natural ability. ;)

2. Why is Fascism/Nazism generally on the right of the political spectrum?

Strong governments?

3. Do you think psychedelic drugs can be useful as a means of psychotherapy?

Theoretically, yes. They can open up the psyche to new perceptions, which can allow for new insights.

4. What is your opinion on the song "Teenage Dream" by Katy Perry? Why?

Never heard of it.

5. Do you believe in good and evil? What characterizes each?

Not as physical manifestations. If I ever considered anything evil it would be a type of desire. Though I'm beginning to think there is no such thing. If I were all-powerful, what reason would I have to call anything evil? It would pose no threat and therefore be of no significance to necessitate such a label. The concept of evil stems from powerlessness.

6. How do you feel about Ayn Rand and her philosophy? Why?

Don't know enough of either one.

7. Why is freedom terrifying?

Because we are alone.

8. Cognitive processes: what is your current mental model on their interplay?

It's much too detailed for this short entry.

9. How does one overcome painful/traumatic memories?

I'm no expert, but I don't think they go away unless you confront them and find a way to make whatever happened seem like nothing. Familiarity and admittance.

10. Would you like to live past 100? Why or why not?

No need, at least 69 is good for me.
 

crippli

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Ahh..intpc.


What lovely ideology. How consistent, objective and true to the INTP mind. I guess we are all vulnerable to being fooled.

Still even if the policy sucks and the ever lasting personal attacks to ones ideas. There was a lot of wonderful minds there(and a handful not so much). It makes me sad to see what has happened to the place. Change is good. But to what cost?

YouTube - ABBA - The Winner Takes It All


Zago, I didn't keep track of your political ideas. But imho the few who harassed over there always seemed to mix up addressing the idea to attack the person. I generally just ignored that shiz. And had a pleasant forum experience most of the time until one day Haight decided to use some us to get to the Fs or whatever was the point(and how many posts did I have, like 5000 all included, and never a word of warning). And the whole affair was done in less then 10 minutes. He told me later that he liked me. So I have to assume it was not personal and that I was used as a tool to get to the what has been rather apparent imaginary 'bigger forum problems'. Still sucks, and I'm not pleased, especially when it appears to me that the forum went downhill. I didn't like the methods, as in valid, and I presume other INTPs didn't either. I actually thought the forum was fine, evolving, when some started complaining and group mentality took over. Ultimately I consider this scenario to still be the objective, as our bans are still 'yet to be determined'. And I don't have a reason to make other assumptions. I got to use what has been provided, as is close to zero.

In any case it's a cynic, disrespectful and possibly stupid way of doing things. And that's when I apply my most positive outcome analysis. I have never been one to be resistant of being used for experiments. But this was a bit too much. My calculations don't add up.



Let me ask you something. Do you believe that INTPness is able to override basic emotional reactions and actions? You see, this is where my analysis hinges the most, as I'm not sure about this for the majority of INTPs(or any other type). Is it irrational to expect objectivity and consistency from an INTP?
 

BigApplePi

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Hey Solitaire and zago, I'm intrigued by your conflicts which seem to be dominated by functions other than what are normally considered dominant INTP functions. Use of such technical terms as "asshole" and "coward" are way too difficult for me to grasp just like that. They either need to be defined for me to get or perhaps some other way of describing what when on.

I'll tell you what zago, if you give me a link or two of either a true or a quasi-"asshole", perhaps I can venture an opinion. Of course, I am horning in here but I could argue this is a public board, not that that is any excuse, lol.
 

zago

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Welcome; is your username pronounced Zah*goh or Zay*goh?

The former ;) and thanks!

1. What is critical thinking, and can it be taught? If so, how?

Analytical thinking can be learned through technique, though it still doesn't beat natural ability. ;)

2. Why is Fascism/Nazism generally on the right of the political spectrum?

Strong governments?

3. Do you think psychedelic drugs can be useful as a means of psychotherapy?

Theoretically, yes. They can open up the psyche to new perceptions, which can allow for new insights.

4. What is your opinion on the song "Teenage Dream" by Katy Perry? Why?

Never heard of it.

5. Do you believe in good and evil? What characterizes each?

Not as physical manifestations. If I ever considered anything evil it would be a type of desire. Though I'm beginning to think there is no such thing. If I were all-powerful, what reason would I have to call anything evil? It would pose no threat and therefore be of no significance to necessitate such a label. The concept of evil stems from powerlessness.

6. How do you feel about Ayn Rand and her philosophy? Why?

Don't know enough of either one.

7. Why is freedom terrifying?

Because we are alone.

8. Cognitive processes: what is your current mental model on their interplay?

It's much too detailed for this short entry.

9. How does one overcome painful/traumatic memories?

I'm no expert, but I don't think they go away unless you confront them and find a way to make whatever happened seem like nothing. Familiarity and admittance.

10. Would you like to live past 100? Why or why not?

No need, at least 69 is good for me.

You should really check out Teenage Dream on youtube. It's orgasmic.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe that INTPness is able to override basic emotional reactions and actions? You see, this is where my analysis hinges the most, as I'm not sure about this for the majority of INTPs(or any other type). Is it irrational to expect objectivity and consistency from an INTP?

No, it is not irrational at all. You can't destroy your emotions, but you can deal with them rationally. In fact, it isn't irrational to expect objectivity and consistency from any type. What may hamper your analysis is your own definition of objectivity and consistency. Especially consistency. Consistency with regards to what? Consistency with regards to principles could be expected, but.. not various other things that I would consider details.

Hey Solitaire and zago, I'm intrigued by your conflicts which seem to be dominated by functions other than what are normally considered dominant INTP functions. Use of such technical terms as "asshole" and "coward" are way too difficult for me to grasp just like that. They either need to be defined for me to get or perhaps some other way of describing what when on.

I'll tell you what zago, if you give me a link or two of either a true or a quasi-"asshole", perhaps I can venture an opinion. Of course, I am horning in here but I could argue this is a public board, not that that is any excuse, lol.

Can't really understand what you mean.
 

crippli

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No, it is not irrational at all. You can't destroy your emotions, but you can deal with them rationally. In fact, it isn't irrational to expect objectivity and consistency from any type. What may hamper your analysis is your own definition of objectivity and consistency. Especially consistency. Consistency with regards to what? Consistency with regards to principles could be expected, but.. not various other things that I would consider details.
My definition of objectivity is non subjectivity. Consistency I mean if you get shot, then say you didn't get shot, when you did. The wounded don't care for consistency and it's annoying for the shooter who prefers action and statement to be described accurate. Consistent. Objectivity will be for the witness to describe what happened and not become corrupted by bribes to state a lie.

This is easy to spot in concrete matters. Not so much in the abstract. And this is an ability I have considered INTP/Js to excel at. Maybe I am mistaken. And hence my premises have been wrong from the beginning. I think I read this in the INTP profile. So I am still counting on that aspect to be true, or else my analysis will be invalid.
 

Magnetosphere

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환영합니다 영광스러운, 혁신 포럼에!

번역은 매우, 사과 나빠 ... 동무

kimjongil_alt.jpg


영광스러운 혁명, 김정일의 기분좋은 강력한 공산주의 지도자 포럼에 여러분을 환영합니다

:storks:
 

Jennywocky

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Ok now I'm confused. I have carefully responded to every single person who has replied to this thread, and the only person I have lashed out at is someone who clearly disrespected me. Am I taking crazy pills, Jennifer?

I hope you are, because otherwise that would mean you're naturally crazy.

Just because I have some opinions you disagree with doesn't mean I'm dogmatic.
Honestly, zago, since you've brought it up, you're actually one of the most dogmatic people I've ever known on a forum anywhere. And I don't hand out that adjective very often. You take an aggressive stance, then act surprised when people shove back, and then use it as a reason to shove back even harder. That's why I typically don't engage you much; my therapist has been encouraging me away from my masochistic tendencies, but every so often I guess I have a relapse.

But let's look at this positively, shall we?

Don't see the word as a slur, just see it as, well, an adjective. Wear it as a badge of pride, rather than trying to dodge it. It's part of your style -- your pervasive unique idiom! Embrace it! Go with it! Live the dream! Be all you can be!

(That's about all I want to say about it, actually. That little bit of cheerleading has drained me. I hope you can carry on in my exhaustion!)

...All that being said, I probably still tend to agree with you more than I do with Crippli.

Anyway, that really frustrates me, that you still think that about me.
Being serious a moment, keep writing in flexible (rather than rigid) patterns, like you did here, and my mental database will take note of the shift after awhile. It'll just take time to balance out the other impression I've had of you elsewhere. Maybe you feel like your teaching has taught you some good stuff, but it's possible that it's just made you ultra-aggressive in this sort of environment, and your aggression is triggering further aggression that you seemingly don't actually want.

In case I missed it earlier, what ages do you teach, and what subjects?

환영합니다 영광스러운, 혁신 포럼에!

번역은 매우, 사과 나빠 ... 동무

kimjongil_alt.jpg


영광스러운 혁명, 김정일의 기분좋은 강력한 공산주의 지도자 포럼에 여러분을 환영합니다

:storks:


Uh, yeah, and what are YOU smiling at, flyboy?
 
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