Narcisissm

[kantor1003]

I believe I have narcissistic tendencies. And of course, being the narcissist I think I am, I believe it is due most of the time. When I hear someone speak, I am quick to mentally map them out and fit them to categories. Often, I rank them below me. It is not something that I am too consciously aware of...and I don't do it because I have a need to be superior to others, but more just a process I do naturally... 95-97% of the people I judge, I consider to some extent to be less capable of thought. And it seems kinda parodoxical considering my humble nature. I also always listen to people and take in their views even though I might have mapped them out as less intelligent then me...

However, when I finally meet someone that I find to be more intelligent than me, really good at something, or better than me at my main interest (music/guitar) I am more happy than anything. I recognize it, and automatically set myself below them in some way, and become their little student (on a deep level it can sometimes be a source of jealousy and sadness, but most of the time, I am happy to meet someone to learn from).
On this forum, I am in humble mode. I recognize that most of the people here are more intelligent than me, and I put myself in place accordingly (mostly in the form of shutting up, letting others to do the talking as they do it better than me). I regret most of my posts here because I judge myself on the same line as others, and often the result of me judging my own posts on later occasions results in me seeing my own "dulness" compared to other posts in the same thread. It's like me posting something that's two steps below the actual discussion. Like the ignorant guy we all have met shooting in some idiocy in the middle of the discussion that does nothing but disturb the discussioners.

Anyways, I know I judge 95% of the people below me, but it doesn't cause me to disrespect them, not usually. On the other hand I also recognize when someone is above me and they earn my greatest respect. Is this narcissism, or merely my objective assortment as objective it can be from my subjective standpoint? If my judgments where to have any merit then, there would be a lot of "lesser" people out there.. I am getting sick just reading my own words.
Have any of you any tendencies to overall "rank" people? I guess most of us do it subconsciously.. if so, how many % are being ranked below you?

*submitting thread before getting time to regret posting it*

 

[Logician]

well theres allways the chance that you really are better than them (intellectually), you are, after all, a INTP... the master race.

but in all seriousness as a NT you might not be necessarily smarter than 95% of all people, as a matter of fact you most likely arent (depending of course on the definition of intelligence, for now im talking about the kind thats measured in a IQ test), but you can almost definitely apply what intelligence you have three or four times as well. as a introvert you cater to and exercise that intellect much more than any extrovert, thereby causing you to have no doubt a IQ at least in the 120s (depending on age), so that nice INTP intelligence multiplier really helps.

your almost definitely arrogant about your intellect though, because your smarter than most people ill bet its nearly impossible for you to create in your imagination a character that is smarter than you, unless of course, this character is just a extension of you. and even if you except that someone is smarter than you, I'm willing to bet deep down you think you mentally have something they don't.

but no, i doubt your narcissistic, being a XXXP its very hard to actually love yourself...

 

[Vrecknidj]

I have a friend who was still struggling with algebra as a junior in high school (I took algebra in 7th grade). I went to college, he did not. He can walk into probably any factory in North America, grab a tool belt, and assist in the production of any product. He can wire an entire house by himself. He can plumb a house by himself. He can tear apart and rebuild any engine from any vehicle. He can repair engines and motors of all sorts. He can't do calculus, he can't work out physics problems, he isn't interested in philosophy.

I have another friend who didn't go to college. He's a self-employed industrial designer. He invents components for products (usually machines) for companies, he is an efficiency expert, able to figure out how to make a new device with fewer parts do things that older machines with more parts used to do. He's a highly skilled guitarist, but he cannot read music. I can read music, I know the circle of 5ths, I understand all the various clefs in music, etc., etc, but, I suck at playing instruments. He is so skilled in wing chun kung fu that he's a teacher. I have dabbled in multiple martial arts, but I'm basically not good at any of them. He can't do calculus or physics either.

I have another friend who sucks at spelling, but runs the IT department for an entire city in Washington state.

I have another friend who ran an artillery battalion and was in charge of hundreds of men in Korea. He speaks several languages and got every question right on his SAT. He currently is the dean of a college in the Midwest. He's a gifted harmonica player. He couldn't rewire or plumb his house, he can't run an IT department, and he's not an inventor.

I think that ranking people is generally an indication of ego inflation (of which narcissism is a subcategory, probably) and, while not unnatural -- I think we all compare ourselves to others for example -- I don't think it serves much purpose.

All of the people I've mentioned are great guys. They're all folks I'm happy to spend an afternoon with, just shootin' the breeze or having a couple drinks. They're all people who have learned to accept others and f I had all of them over for cards or to watch a ballgame, we'd all have a good time and nobody would be comparing himself to the others.

These were the first few who popped into mind. I could list a hundred other friends and acquaintances with similar stories, all of whom have long since just dropped the pretenses of how smart or strong or cool or popular they are. Then again, we're all at least 40 years old.

Perspective.

Dave

 

[kantor1003]

and even if you except that someone is smarter than you, I'm willing to bet deep down you think you mentally have something they don't.
.

Often in real life, I find that that's the case.. however, there is a few persons the above doesn't apply to at all. Where I feel that I don't have anything they don't have...and frankly feel like a wast of a human compared to them. But logically, there are few people that will have you covered mentally in all aspects...so, to get the feeling that you have something mentally they don't isn't too strange even though you find them more intelligent then you.

 

[Agent Intellect]

I would say I suffer from the opposite of narcissism. I often keep things bottled up because I question my own competence (which is generally where my self worth is derived from). From my inability to express myself offline to the countless posts I've deleted or truncated through editing on this forum, I have the tendency to convince myself that other people probably have an even better grasp of a particular subject then I do, so I frequently opt to keep my mouth shut and have them think I'm a fool then open my mouth and prove them right.

 

[kantor1003]

Vrecknidj:
Yes, but all those people you mentioned would be people I could admire. I guess there is something to admire in most humans. All those you listed seemed intelligent/capable to me. Linking intelligence/ability to specific categories like math/physics/philosophy (as they are generally associated with intelligent people) would be a too narrow way to look at it and is not categories I judge people by. If I meet a carpenter for example, that really know his field, he will earn my respect.

 

[kantor1003]

I would say I suffer from the opposite of narcissism. I often keep things bottled up because I question my own competence (which is generally where my self worth is derived from). From my inability to express myself offline to the countless posts I've deleted or truncated through editing on this forum, I have the tendency to convince myself that other people probably have an even better grasp of a particular subject then I do, so I frequently opt to keep my mouth shut and have them think I'm a fool then open my mouth and prove them right.

Thats really me in a nutshell too... can I be both at the same time? something is weird. This gave me something to think about. I think it is a circumstantial thing, where I have a much stronger tendency to be like what you described above.

 

[Ermine]

To some degree, you're just being human. Just about any society has a pecking order. I'm not saying this is a good thing by any means though.

And I'm also totally an advocate of the multiple intelligences concept. With any person I meet, I always keep in mind that we'll both be superior and inferior to each other in different areas. For example, one of my close friends is pretty slow academically speaking. However, he has a lot of emotional and social smarts, and is quite mechanically inclined. I on the other hand am academically very smart (so I've heard), intrapersonally inclined, below average mechanically and a bit of a social/emotional retard. If I were to compare people solely by my primary strengths, most people would be idiots. But they simply specialize in different fields.

 

[kantor1003]

yes, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. But when we add them all up, as a complete package, it is a fair assumption to make that one package will add up to a greater sum then the other?

 

[Tunesimah]

Hmm... I think it is more fair to judge people by how they use their abilities and relative arrogance. Actually arrogance in general is a pretty strong indicator of how I'll internally rank someone. Although I don't really rank people much in general, unless they fall below a threshold... people are just people... trying to survive...

If someone is in a position of authority over me and is extremely arrogant about their ability and at the same time making poor judgements and not thinking through what they are saying doing... they really drop to the lowest rung on my personal ladder. I just can't stand it. Usually teachers or bosses, but also extroverted types who believe by the force of their personality that they are right...

If people are just regular people getting by with what they have, I don't have a problem. I mean you can't choose how your brain is going to end up being wired, so why think down on a person for that? I'm sure I come off as a babbling moron sometimes too...

This forum seems pretty good in having interesting dialogs, while at the same time being open and non-prententious.

I used to be really cautious on forums and other social situations, worrying if I was good enough.... or following the rules. Much in how you describe... somehow thinking I was lesser... or needing to be accepted first. I've since realized that my internal 'acceptance' really is just a factor of time... and not to be so high-strung about it... it's a lot easier not to care so much. Liberating really...

 

[Ermine]

yes, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. But when we add them all up, as a complete package, it is a fair assumption to make that one package will add up to a greater sum then the other?

Question is, can you properly size up a person when they're summed up in different terms than you or anyone else? To me, it seems like algebraicly trying to add unlike terms. I'm simplifying the issue, but bear with me. Perhaps it would be like trying this:

4I + 6N + 5T + 3P = 3E + 5S + 5F + 5J

The amounts of variables match up, but that doesn't provide you any real information because the terms are different.

 

[Beat Mango]

Sounds like ego inflation, I believe all INTPs are prone to it. Schizoids certainly are, and we're their cousins. Contempt for others is apparently the worst or at least one of the worst things to have for a relationship, it is a massive threat to any relationship, and I know I have a strong tendency towards it, which is a problem and something that I have to guard against.

Vreck - still though, those people you mentioned don't necessarily have a strong awareness. I think it's the lack of awareness in others that frustrates the jaded INTP.

I would say I suffer from the opposite of narcissism. I often keep things bottled up because I question my own competence (which is generally where my self worth is derived from). From my inability to express myself offline to the countless posts I've deleted or truncated through editing on this forum, I have the tendency to convince myself that other people probably have an even better grasp of a particular subject then I do, so I frequently opt to keep my mouth shut and have them think I'm a fool then open my mouth and prove them right.

Being hard on yourself, paradoxically, goes hand in hand with ego inflation, at least in my opinion. Nietzsche, according to Jung, was the ultimate case study in ego inflation, and he was very very hard on himself. If you depend heavily on your ego to feel content, then you're naturally going to guard it extra cautiously.

 

[beastie]

I think we all have narcissistic tendencies. You pointed out that you defer to those who you see as smarter than you and become a "student". From my understanding if you were truly narcissistic you wouldnt have the ability to recognise intelligence in someone because it would be too threatening to your inflated sense of self.
The narcissist in this instance would probably manipulate these interactions for some sort of personal gain, namely reducing the subject to something inferior or somehow getting them to defer in someway to validate ones sense of superiority.
In my opinion if you are seeking knowledge, "truth" and understanding and are interested in people who can provide this, you are not seeking to inflate yourself above others or to gain some advantage for personal gain at anothers expense.
You are seeking a supply of knowledge not a supply of people and interactions that/who you can manipulate for your personal gain (other than knowledge for the sake of knowledge itself).

 

[Ritsuka]

Being hard on yourself, paradoxically, goes hand in hand with ego inflation, at least in my opinion. Nietzsche, according to Jung, was the ultimate case study in ego inflation, and he was very very hard on himself. If you depend heavily on your ego to feel content, then you're naturally going to guard it extra cautiously.

Im this way, I also rank other people as I meet them and get to know them better. I dont actually think anyone has ranked higher than me on a first meeting, and only one or two people are ranked higher than or identical to me (arg it sounds horrible really). However I tend to be hard on myself on most subjects, I critisize nearly everything I do and still hold myself in much higher regard then just about everyone else.
This is just how it works perhaps?

 

[Tunesimah]

Im this way, I also rank other people as I meet them and get to know them better. I dont actually think anyone has ranked higher than me on a first meeting, and only one or two people are ranked higher than or identical to me (arg it sounds horrible really). However I tend to be hard on myself on most subjects, I critisize nearly everything I do and still hold myself in much higher regard then just about everyone else.
This is just how it works perhaps?

I think I understand this. Whenever I have to do something creative, I'm always full of false starts and stuff I think is just drivel. When I go into critical mode, I can find flaws in just about everything. And so in that sense, I'm starting to learn that many just put the first thing that pops into their head out there... with not much of a filter or a critical eye.

I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of producing something that is simple and derivative. If you have the capacity to be critical, you almost can't help but feeling better than other people. Since you know what it takes to do good work... and you'll be producing it yourself or beat yourself up over it.

I have the biggest problem with people who don't have a critical eye, and yet still think they are the best thing ever.

 

[Da Blob]

Narcissism is a mental disorder, and what you describe is not anything close to the symptoms of that disorder. I think we tend to feel 'superior' to people when we observed them making mistakes that we, our selves, would not make for one reason or another. Lack of ability seems from a distance to be the failure to do something without making multiple mistakes.

In one of your posts, you speak about reflecting on the quality of thought that has gone into your posts and observe that perhaps the comments do not reflect a 'best' effort on your part. This reflection in itself is almost proof that you are not suffering from Narcissism. Those people rarely second guess themselves and for some it is impossible of to admit the possibility of being mistaken.

Concerning the quality of posts, i do not put much thought or effort in most of my posts, most are only of first draft quality that I type on the fly in response to some provocative comment by another forum member. In fact of the 1700 posts that I have made, perhaps only 200 are of good enough quality that I would consider them as passing the test of reflection. However, this is a social forum not some rigorous academic site, so I would not worry about the 'quality' of your posts, if you hang around long enough others will pick up on what you are trying to say...

 

[Kuu]

Being hard on yourself, paradoxically, goes hand in hand with ego inflation, at least in my opinion. Nietzsche, according to Jung, was the ultimate case study in ego inflation, and he was very very hard on himself. If you depend heavily on your ego to feel content, then you're naturally going to guard it extra cautiously.

However I tend to be hard on myself on most subjects, I critisize nearly everything I do and still hold myself in much higher regard then just about everyone else.
This is just how it works perhaps?

If you have the capacity to be critical, you almost can't help but feeling better than other people. Since you know what it takes to do good work... and you'll be producing it yourself or beat yourself up over it.

I have the biggest problem with people who don't have a critical eye, and yet still think they are the best thing ever.

This is why people perceive us as arrogant assholes with impossibly high standards. And yet, the same high standards apply to ourselves, rendering us into self-defeating, insecure train wrecks a lot of the time.

And then sometimes we might play up the ego bit just to hide the insecure bit.


Not me though. I'm perfect.

 

[Andy]

I believe my way of thinking to be superior to everyone else's I am in contact with, probably due to the fact that whenever I find something wrong with it I change ASAP. The people around me are not necessarily stupid, but their thinking is just so...flawed. Like they are zoomed in on one object and refuse to see the big picture. My brain works the exact opposite way, yes I know this type of thinking is an INTP trait, but from reading these forums I think I must be some kind of extreme case because I am not curious in any way and I am not interested in most philosophy, my mind just works in a depersonalized state and spits out rational definitions. This doesn't allow space for things like hate, sympathy or narcisissm. I view humans and life as just a little more complex stuff than rocks. A bunch of chemical reactions and equations. Hating and admiring people would be like admiring x=7+9 for being higher than y=5+3. There is no he, she, you or me.

These head muscles need a break. It logs out.

 

[asdfasdfasdfsdf]

"95-97% of the people I judge, I consider to some extent to be less capable of thought. And it seems kinda parodoxical considering my humble nature."

exactly same here.
it also comes from that most people i meet are superficial, shallow, and let public opinion tell them how to live. that is what makes me feel better than most.
if someone isnt like that... i dont rate myself above them. its more of me ranking myself above fake personalities.
this whole matter may have something to do with my misanthropy.

 

[shoeless]

the way you (OP) approach judging peoples' intelligence is so black-and-white that i'm kind of getting the impression you're really not an INTP at all. sounds like more of an INTJ thing. J is for Judging after all.

i dunno, i subscribe to the belief that nobody is "better" or "worse" than anybody else, we're all just... different. that doesn't mean that everyone should be holding hands and skipping through the meadows and accepting everyone's differences and loving everyone just for who they are blah blah blah -- obviously our differences render some of us just plainly incompatible. but i try not to feel superior. at least, not superior over-all. maybe superior in something i'm good at, like drawing or whatever, but they're probably better than me at physics, so who knows.

anyway, deviating from the whole judging thing -- i still feel insanely narcissistic, and it drives me crazy. i mean, i don't/try not to act narcissistic; i'm a listener, i take an interest in other people, i don't talk about myself all the time, whatever, but internally, i feel like i'm all i think about. i'm all that matters. not really but that's how it seems, if that makes any sense at all? i don't know, but i hate it. i can't decide if it's a part of human nature or if i just have a superinflated ego. it's pretty annoying.

but anyway. carry on.

 

[snowqueen]

To be honest I think that all human beings are at one level or other, egoistic and self absorbed, concerned with maintaining their own place in the world, and seeking their own happiness even if it is sometimes at the expense of others.

There might be an INTP flavour to this as evidenced in the posts above, but I don't think it's at all abnormal or something to be worried about. Focusing outwards and being genuinely curious about other people's needs and interests (genuine curiosity is remarkably hard btw) is a good antidote to egoism.

Spiritually, in buddhism, to notice your inner game, to see how your thoughts continually revolve around you, is a first step to liberation - instead of worrying about them, the instruction is simply to notice them and then label them 'thinking' and let them go.