My therapist says I have 'toxic shame'.

[redbaron]

I wasn't responding to you (:

Sorry if not clear, I often don't quote anyone when I make masturbatory rhetoric posts.

 

[TheManBeyond]

my therapist is so hot that i can barely focus on what she says. and she's 44 and openminded
gawd why me? only pain u bring
she says i'm fine no big deal, but i keep coming back
how to push faith away when u are so close to heaven?

 

[Crystabelle]

"I am enough" -- could this really solve all our problems? Have any of you tried something like this? Seems too simple and yet it also really resonates with me.

https://youtu.be/lw3NyUMLh7Y

 

[QuickTwist]

"I am enough" -- could this really solve all our problems? Have any of you tried something like this? Seems too simple and yet it also really resonates with me.

https://youtu.be/lw3NyUMLh7Y

It could work for you perfectly. But people are different and sometimes what works well for one person doesn't work as well for another.

 

[Crystabelle]

I wasn't responding to you (:

Sorry if not clear, I often don't quote anyone when I make masturbatory rhetoric posts.

Oh. I thought I really upset you somehow. Lol.

#ESFJProblems

 

[Reluctantly]

All of my therapist have guided me toward more positive behaviors and taught me positive tools to use which I believe is part of a therapist job. To me, this is showing me how to get out of a hole & helping me to do so.

Yes. And I don't know your details, but as long as the therapist isn't creating a dependency where they solve your problems and not you, then it's all good. That's all I was getting at.

eh, and I feel like I'm mucking this thread up now. I just wanted to make a point with QT that he seemed to miss, so I made it explicit and now I'm getting an argument about semantics and what appears to be a mis-interpretation by RB of what I said (maybe, he doesn't quote as he says), so I'm out.

toxic shame guys,

 

[Hadoblado]

The epic tale of RB desperately trying not to be taken seriously and how half of INTPF interpreted this as him calling them out :^^^^^^^^)

 

[redbaron]

i h8 u all



My annoyance is real but perhaps not as explicit as it appears. I do think there's a general tendency for people to offer advice from an uninformed perspective with a surety that isn't warranted, so at best it's just more misunderstanding to deal with and at worst is actually just wrong and harmful (I don't think anything in this thread qualifies).

Blanket evaluations of how things "should" be, not accounting for context or whatever just seem like really superfluous things to bring up at best. At times, a therapist might pull someone out of a hole, at others they might not - the therapist would obviously be assessing how badly the person needs help and it's not a "crutch" - I'd say that it would be a trait of a good therapist to be able to identify when the person needs a proverbial hug or a kick up the ass, or something else entirely.

The point of a therapist as I see it is simply as a neutral 3rd party who imparts whatever actions they deem most effective to deal with the problems you present with. I feel like it's just getting ridiculous when people are basically armchair assessing the value of someone else's therapy almost, without first having some kind of earnest attempt to understand the person's issue and nature of therapy etc.

So yeah it's tongue in cheek mockery but it's partially correct that I think it's not a helpful addition (taken with the grain of salt that I'm aware that I'm probably not a helpful addition to these threads either)

Anyway carry on doing the things.

 

[The Gopher]

The epic tale of RB desperately trying not to be taken seriously and how half of INTPF interpreted this as him calling them out :^^^^^^^^)

Yeah I have the same problem. However like in this case sometimes I'm also half serious but not more than half the time so it's entirely fair for people to misunderstand.

 

[Polaris]

Why would you throw away such a valuable gift as that. We don't need less shame and suffering, we need the psychological tools to harness these emotions.

I wouldn't go as far as calling it a gift, because it can break you as much as it can "make" you. But you are absolutely right in that it can be a very powerful driver, and I think you are spot on in your observation. Shame is such an inherent part of the modern human psyche and I suspect a lot of it has to do with unconscious remnant religious tenets.

But when it has origin in trauma, it becomes something quite different. So you will either gradually fall to pieces, or you become a slave to it and let it drive you forward on a pathological quest for perfection.

Shame has the effect that whatever you do, you will never be good enough. People will tell you over and over, but their words are meaningless - they may as well be speaking a different language. When you achieve something, you go around with a fear of being "found out"; what you achieved was just luck, or you had a good moment, but you are actually just a fraud, stupid, and incompetent.

Nothing can convince you, because you are Shame.

It takes a hell of a lot of self scrutiny and insight to be able to identify what it is that drives you. I have wondered time and time again why I do the things I do. I know for certain that I am very bad at receiving compliments, so I have identified that I carry this tendency. Of course, the final conclusion is always that I must just be lucky, or a fraud. There is no way I am actually good at anything.

It's like the snake biting its own tail. You are caught in an endless loop of doubt, so you keep perfecting until you forget your own physiological needs. Of course, there is no such thing as absolute perfection, so you will never get there, but it won't stop you from trying.

One solution may be by some sort of enlightenment, but then you'll just be completely isolated from society - nobody can relate to an enlightened person, so you cannot realistically function this way either.

The only way to end to it is by self elimination.

 

[Puffy]

I hadn't thought about it through that term before, but I think I display characteristics of deep shame.

I face great resistance around upsetting or offending other people enough that historically I've learnt to mould my words, actions & persona to be diplomatic, non-offensive, and agreeable in most situations. I'll only become natural and relaxed with someone if I trust (I won't feel hurt by) them a great deal. Some people have considered this fake or duplicitous behaviour but being the cause of upset or a negative perception in another person induces enough anxiety in me that it's basically just a means of avoiding pain.

Analysing that to its root it feels like it derives from self-loathing. I can feel okay if others are okay with me, but any indication that they're not okay with me induces pain as it gets used by me as evidence for the shame I already feel in relation to myself. The pain doesn't come from other people, whether they intend to hurt you or not, your perception of their judgements is a pain that resounds internally and derives from your own self-concept.

I can see how self-elimination and endless hunger (drive) could be natural trajectories of that shame. The self-loathing deepens to a point you no longer have hope it can change, or you say "I am not okay, but I could become okay by achieving x, being regarded as y, becoming z, or receiving a." I think what Serac and Polaris describe are examples of what Zapffe called sublimation, as you're sublimating one destructive drive down a creative route that can be therapeutic or obsessive.

I agree that the latter approach is an insatiable hunger as it's still rooted in self-loathing rather than self-acceptance. As what you're admitting is that you're fundamentally not okay as you are and must become or realise something else to be okay, there is an endless array of goal-posts you can set yourself but it will never transform that self-concept.

A typical example I've seen in myself and close friends I've known is around the area of love. People who loathe themselves crave love as receiving love is like temporary relief - watering the fire. "Maybe this pain will end if I find total love and acceptance from another." What I've tended to observe is that person becomes needy and dependent upon that love. Someone can pour endless love and support into you but it will never be enough if you become dependent on how someone else perceives you to feel good about yourself. Many partners stay in hopes they can be the one to heal the wound but eventually end up becoming jaded and leaving them as their endless need becomes too suffocating.

I'm unsure if I agree that they're the only options though. My hope is that overcoming shame lies in learning to forgive, love, accept, and be kind to yourself as you are -
working directly on transforming that self-concept. I think I've been sublimating for a long time (potentially what I identified as Ni in the past) and that a lot of my creative writing is examples of it but have been attempting the latter over the last year with positive results so far. I think sublimation can be valuable just not a total cure - I'm beginning to feel a lot healthier than I have in recent years but there's a long way to go.

It might sound a bit korny (pun intended) but I've found practicing this meditation daily very helpful. I want to write more around this at some point but probably in a separate thread.

 

[Minuend]

I agree with you, Puffy. It's something that comes from within, and others will have difficulty breaching that self hatred and fundamental belief you're not a good thing. It might be possible, but I've seen plenty who become dependent on others to fill that hole- but it's never really filled long term. I think in some cases, self harm is a result. It's needing someone to care, but to be ashamed to admit it, but at the same time thinking if one hurts others will care. It's a contradictory thing. And even when the self harm brings sorely needed positive attention (care from close ones, psychiatric care or so), it still doesn't last. It's not enough to break out of the cycle.

Personally I've gone with the accepting I'm shit and being ok with it route. But I think it's possible to transform and shape those negative thoughts and feelings into something more "rational" and constructive. Where you see yourself as being an ok person. Accepting yourself as a negative might make you feel better about yourself, but it also creates some negative perceptions and feelings toward oneself and others that might be unfortunate.

 

[TheManBeyond]

I'm unsure if I agree that they're the only options though. My hope is that overcoming shame lies in learning to forgive, love, accept, and be kind to yourself as you are -
working directly on transforming that self-concept. I think I've been sublimating for a long time (potentially what I identified as Ni in the past) and that a lot of my creative writing is examples of it but have been attempting the latter over the last year with positive results so far. I think sublimation can be valuable just not a total cure - I'm beginning to feel a lot healthier than I have in recent years but there's a long way to go.

yeah, i have also associated Ni with that, been on it too for some years, obsession after obsession, phil anselmo sings about sublimation / Ni in pantera's mouth for war,

Revenge, I'm screaming revenge again
Wrong, I've been wrong for far too long
Been constantly so frustrated
I've moved mountains with less
When I channel my hate to productive
I don't find it hard to impress
No comprehension to fail
I vacuum the wind for my sail
Can't be the rest
Let others waste my time
Owning success is the bottom line
Like a knife into flesh
After life is to death
Pulling and punching the rest of duration
No one can piss on this determination

What is your view on Ni nowdays? did it change?

 

[Puffy]

I agree with you, Puffy. It's something that comes from within, and others will have difficulty breaching that self hatred and fundamental belief you're not a good thing. It might be possible, but I've seen plenty who become dependent on others to fill that hole- but it's never really filled long term. I think in some cases, self harm is a result. It's needing someone to care, but to be ashamed to admit it, but at the same time thinking if one hurts others will care. It's a contradictory thing. And even when the self harm brings sorely needed positive attention (care from close ones, psychiatric care or so), it still doesn't last. It's not enough to break out of the cycle.

Personally I've gone with the accepting I'm shit and being ok with it route. But I think it's possible to transform and shape those negative thoughts and feelings into something more "rational" and constructive. Where you see yourself as being an ok person. Accepting yourself as a negative might make you feel better about yourself, but it also creates some negative perceptions and feelings toward oneself and others that might be unfortunate.

Thanks, Minu. <: Yes, I agree. The meditation practice I linked is kind of a method for doing that. Whenever anxiety or excessive negativity arises in me, I visualise the feeling as myself as a hurt child, and direct love, compassion, and reassurance towards the feeling. I find within as much time as is needed (30-60mins at the moment) the feeling becomes settled and changes from negative to positive. At the very least I find it useful for when things become especially hard lately, though I have noticed it have an effect on my thought-patterns and it's slowly opening up emotions in me that have been repressed for a long time.

yeah, i have also associated Ni with that, been on it too for some years, obsession after obsession, phil anselmo sings about sublimination / Ni in pantera's mouth for war,

Revenge, I'm screaming revenge again
Wrong, I've been wrong for far too long
Been constantly so frustrated
I've moved mountains with less
When I channel my hate to productive
I don't find it hard to impress
No comprehension to fail
I vacuum the wind for my sail
Can't be the rest
Let others waste my time
Owning success is the bottom line
Like a knife into flesh
After life is to death
Pulling and punching the rest of duration
No one can piss on this determination

What is your view on Ni nowdays? did it change?

Hah, you might also like the song "All hail the new flesh" by Strapping Young Lad which I think describes a similar thing.

I don't want to derail the thread too much - I think I've acknowledged the sublimated aspect of it before, in that I was conscious of how my pain was interlinked with its expression whenever I'd write. The core difference is that I used to believe it was a process that took that pain and culminated in self-healing, whereas I'm skeptical of that at the moment. I'd want to examine 'Ni' in unhealthy and healthy versions of myself before coming to a new synthesis of it.