My theory on why America is getting dumber by the second, and digging its own inevitable grave.

[deadpixel]

America is on its way to idiocracy.

-Introverts being pressured into extroversion.

I think that this is a huge reason that Americans and this country that was once so amazing, founded by amazing men who envisioned great things, is going to shit. Introverts, whom only make up an estimated 1/3 of the U.S population to begin with, are being forced into extroversion at an alarming rate. America seems to be creating a self generating supply of Introverts(whom are already lacking in number)that convert themselves to extroverts, because introverts are taught from their very first day of school that they are not normal.

They are made to believe that something is wrong with them, that they are weird, nerdy, uncool, and they are forced to learn in school with a "one size fits all" extroverted learning style. This is too much for an introvert and they cant handle it, all of the sudden these seemingly gentle natured kids are labeled as trouble makers and constantly end up in the disciplinary office. In today's society, I admire the young introverts of their generation who have accepted who they are and refuse to drink the Kool-aid.

Imagine how much chaos this is going to cause in the future, how much chaos it has already caused. I cant imagine anything worse than an introvert forcing themselves into an unnatural state of extroversion, I feel deeply sorry for the young introverts of today for the UNNECESSARY pressures and confusion that is brought upon them by the system. Forcing them to suppress their natural talent, ingenuity, and uniqueness.

Of course this doesn't only affect children, no of course not. Adults constantly feel the pressures of the demand to be more extroverted too, for an array of different reasons, Ill use landing a job as an example. So many businesses now implement mbti in their interview/hiring process to weed out introverted types from ever being hired because they prefer extroverted personalities. So basically, they use a test, whose foundation was created by an introvert(Carl Jung, INTP)to weed out the type of great minds that invented their beloved test in the first place.

Imagine an America with 1/3 of its only introverted population acting like counter-productive, confused jackasses, resisting their potential, living in the grip just so they can fit in with the other 2/3 of the population, I think the evidence of this travesty has already shown itself if you think about it. Ill give you a tiny example, Just turn your t.v on.

-Learning channels are no longer meant for learning
-Nothing but reality t.v on nearly every channel, there's not even anything realistic about it, Why are they trying to convince people that these shows are what REAL LIFE is like?
-Nothing but HORRIBLE AS SEEN ON TV INVENTIONS, slap chops, sham wows, HD EYEGLASSES?!?!?..... you get the point.(probably all inventions of the fake ENTP)

In quite a few Asian countries, being reserved and humble is actually a value that is held in high regard, interestingly enough these countries all outperform the U.S in academics by a gigantic margin. I think that speaks for itself.

 

[bemused]

you make some valid points.

as for asian countries performing better- asians generally place greater emphasis on education, but there is more societal pressure to succeed because they're such collective societies. for example, in Japan there is the hikikomori phenomenon which psychologists link to the cultural pressure.

asians and ashkenazi jews outperform by large margin the general population in the states, mostly because of the cultural emphasis on education.

we should get rid of standardized testing, and use Finland as a model.

 

[deadpixel]

Finland is the 3rd happiest place on earth if I remember correctly, they have a very good system, taxes are high but they seem happy as hell and don't seem to mind one bit.

 

[bemused]

haha i never knew that they were happy, but i do know their educational system puts ours to shame.

however, they're a small fairly homogenous nation

 

[deadpixel]

I was wrong it was ranked 7th Saudi Arabia is supposed to be pretty badass too, the place looks like paradise, you are entitled to one free house, and free college education.

 

[deadpixel]

you make some valid points.

as for asian countries performing better- asians generally place greater emphasis on education, but there is more societal pressure to succeed because they're such collective societies. for example, in Japan there is the hikikomori phenomenon which psychologists link to the cultural pressure.

asians and ashkenazi jews outperform by large margin the general population in the states, mostly because of the cultural emphasis on education.

we should get rid of standardized testing, and use Finland as a model.

That is very true, I think that placing value on temperaments that are more reserved and humble only enhances this great emphasis that they place on education though.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I think its the fact that you've so many dogmas limiting the solutions available to you

That crap about taxes is one of em

 

[TBerg]

I think if we combined the common-sense conservatism of most Asians with the liberal idealism of most Westerners, we could have a pretty decent society without the spoiled Westerners and without the somewhat repressed Asians.

Saudi Arabia is so incestuous about everything, though. I would not really admire anything that comes out of a society premised on a delicate dance between religious fascist whackos and pampered royals sitting on their laurels of oil money. Where is the individual industry?

 

[bemused]

Saudi Arabia is so incestuous about everything, though. I would not really admire anything that comes out of a society premised on a delicate dance between religious fascist whackos and pampered royals sitting on their laurels of oil money.

why did I like this post so much? it was brutally honest.

 

[bemused]

I think its the fact that you've so many dogmas limiting the solutions available to you

That crap about taxes is one of em

eh his heart is in the right place.

 

[deadpixel]

I think if we combined the common-sense conservatism of most Asians with the liberal idealism of most Westerners, we could have a pretty decent society without the spoiled Westerners and without the somewhat repressed Asians.

Saudi Arabia is so incestuous about everything, though. I would not really admire anything that comes out of a society premised on a delicate dance between religious fascist whackos and pampered royals sitting on their laurels of oil money. Where is the individual industry?

When I was going to a college prep high school we had this one south Korean exchange student in my math class in 8th grade, he was already 100% proficient in TRIGONOMETRY. I don't even know what he was doing at that school, I guess to learn English but it certainly wasn't to learn much of anything else because he already seemed to be years ahead of everyone. It was pretty unreal.

 

[TBerg]

When I was going to a college prep high school we had this one south Korean exchange student in my math class in 8th grade, he was already 100% proficient in TRIGONOMETRY. I don't even know what he was doing at that school, I guess to learn English but it certainly wasn't to learn much of anything else because he already seemed to be years ahead of everyone. It was pretty unreal.

We need to kill him before he lowers American self-esteem!

 

[TBerg]

why did I like this post so much? it was brutally honest.

I do what I can do.

 

[deadpixel]

Thread title:



gg

that's onion level satire

qq

Thanks, you've inspired me.

 

[Pyropyro]

Tall poppy syndrome is bad especially if you're forcing the poppies to bite their heads off. You ought to cultivate your young people.

As for learning channels, I did enjoy the Discovery channel family (History channel etc.) However, they're churning out more reality shows than informative shows lately. Surely, we have more things to learn than spying on the lives of duck hunters?

As for Asians outperforming others in academics, we'll I guess it's a matter of survival. If you get good grades and land a successful job then good for you. However, if you suck then well... you might want to get creative on how to spend that ~US$200 worth of monthly wages on your family.

 

[bemused]

@cooperbrown504 - you actually make some good points man, don't let them get you down.

@ TimeAsylums - you better be careful of Muphry's law, bro. some day it will get you

@ Pyro- in the states- ashkenazis are right there with asians. i am not a stat guy but i heard (or read) a while back that something like 90% of ivy league schools are made up ashkenazis and asians.

their culture puts a HUGE emphasis on education and success.

 

[Pyropyro]

@ Pyro- in the states- ashkenazis are right there with asians. i am not a stat guy but i heard (or read) a while back that something like 90% of ivy league schools are made up ashkenazis and asians.

their culture puts a HUGE emphasis on education and success.
[/B]

True true. It's the concept of brain drain. The States (and probably Canada) gets the best and the brightest. Their native countries simply doesn't have the challenges and job opportunities that suits them. It's sad for their countries but if their families and individual lives benefit from the migration then I'm cool with that.

 

[Helvete]

This is only one reason, plus it doesn't explain why. Why does society favour extroverts? Please fix your flaws, I don't want to be falling into your basement.

 

[Cherry Cola]

eh his heart is in the right place.

Sorry I meant it as in "you americans". Which makes no sense because I don't actually know if the OP is an american or not.

 

[Ribald]

The belief that everything is going to shit is so insanely ubiquitous throughout human history that it should be on the list of human universals.

That said, certain countries do at times "go to shit". Is America going to shit? God, I hope not. It is possible, and if it is, the reason is the same as it always is: being at the top lulls you into a false sense of security and leads to decadence.

That's what truly bothers me about a lot of people, especially on internet forums. They are so nihilistic it is sickening. They have no sense of what is important life, nor do they have a sense that the current stability isn't given, nor do they have a sense that we have enemies who are working every day to overtake us.

Their de facto slogans, of which there are many, mostly revolve around how "we don't know anything" and "we shouldn't judge anyone". I believe people get these ideas because they have never witnessed the sort of injustice that violently wrenches those beliefs right out of your head.

It's a cruel irony: having worked to get to the top, you find yourself with the tremendous disadvantage of forgetting why you felt it necessary to work to the top in the first place. Obviously this is exacerbated by the fact that young people have no life experience, so they are particularly prone to saying these sorts of things. Those on the bottom live through hardships that motivate them. Those on top do not.

Then again, that's not absolute. There are a lot of bright, hard working people in America and a lot of promise in the youth. But as a general trend, I fear nihilism might be the case--at least enough for other nations to be catching up.

You also, of course, get the corresponding glut of consumerism that often comes with wealth and people think it is more important to spend a year planning a 5-figure wedding than working to educate themselves or know what's going on in the world.

But yeah. I just wish people would stop being so dumb. There's a lot at stake.

 

[Red myst]

Re: America is on its way to idiocracy.

One of the things about America is that we are a melting pot of so many cultures. These other places in the world are more homogeneous than the U.S. so they get along better, they are not fighting each other for equality and what not.
Also, here everything has turned into a big business. Education is big business, health care is big business, prisons are big business. We are a materialistic society, I get why sometime things may seem so dismal, but I don't think it is all that bad, at least I hope not. I think people who want to learn will find a way. People who do not will not. If you just want to keep up with the status quo, you can, but if you want to learn trig, or calculus, there are plenty of online resources and books. But you have to go out and do it your self, you can't wait to be spoofed by your teacher in a classroom. I don't know what the stats from Finland mean about school, in the bigger picture. Because I don't know what their employment rate is, average wage, cost of living, and taxes. You have to look at the big picture. If you make more money but pay more taxes, and more for gasoline, and more for other things, what's the difference to living in the US? Other than you just like it there better? If you like it there, then it is worth it, but if your just doing it for a monetary advantage, it may be just break even. Who knows?


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[Analyzer]

What is America? The state responsible for its geographical control of its regions on a map, or the belief system people associate themselves to be a part of?

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

I don't live in america, but in my country we may have same problem in the future.

 

[Analyzer]

I don't live in america, but in my country we may have same problem in the future.

The concept of the nation-state is on it's last stages. With nearly ever country in debt and reliant on each other for monetary stability they will all come down eventually.

What's next is either a global state or decentralized systems. Looking at trends in industries/business I would the say the later is more likely.

 

[Variform]

Re: America is on its way to idiocracy.

-Introverts being pressured into extroversion.

I think that this is a huge reason that Americans and this country that was once so amazing, founded by amazing men who envisioned great things, is going to shit.

How was it once amazing? In what way? What a strange assumption to make. Are you some patriot?

Patriotism truly is america's state religion is it not.

Maybe you can leave the empty rhetoric next time. It is not in my interest.

Introverts, whom only make up an estimated 1/3 of the U.S population to begin with, are being forced into extroversion at an alarming rate.

Compared to what other rate at what other time?

America seems to be creating a self generating supply of Introverts(whom are already lacking in number)that convert themselves to extroverts, because introverts are taught from their very first day of school that they are not normal.

And you think this has not happened in earlier centuries? So at what point would you suggest it changed?

They are made to believe that something is wrong with them, that they are weird, nerdy, uncool, and they are forced to learn in school with a "one size fits all" extroverted learning style.

How does this compare to the earliest medieval schools. You had these public schools and the teacher had to his disposal various artifacts of punishment. His reign was supreme.

This is too much for an introvert and they cant handle it, all of the sudden these seemingly gentle natured kids are labeled as trouble makers and constantly end up in the disciplinary office. In today's society, I admire the young introverts of their generation who have accepted who they are and refuse to drink the Kool-aid.

It is not gentle to hang in the curtains or harm another student with your impulse arm-waving and antics. But I understand what you mean. We may not blame the victim. And god forbid we should label someone, no, surely it is better to have kids muddle along rather than helping them?

I know, I know! YOU did not mention diagnoses. But that is where we are heading right? If we could just reform schools than all children would be able to be taught in their own learning style. And that would solve all problems.

Yet. Where is the prove that would help? INTP's are rational? Show me the proof.

I am waiting to be diagnosed for ADD. I am not entirely sire I have it. My parents never took me to a doctor because never hung in the curtains. I sat there daydreaming and being 'gently natured'. But that kid in my class I remember so well, his name was Jan, he was always out of his chair, you bet he got help. But I did not.

A diagnosis may be a label, but it also gives you rights and special treatment.

Imagine how much chaos this is going to cause in the future, how much chaos it has already caused.

Could you give examples?

I cant imagine anything worse than an introvert forcing themselves into an unnatural state of extroversion, I feel deeply sorry for the young introverts of today for the UNNECESSARY pressures and confusion that is brought upon them by the system. Forcing them to suppress their natural talent, ingenuity, and uniqueness.

Unnecessary? That is tough. To keep education costs at some normal level the one size fits all rule has to be applied. At least, you would disagree. But then need proof that one on one education would be cost effective. And workable.

I'd like to see education systems reform. I agree that we should cater to a child's needs, to some point at least. If, after all, we cater to every child uniquely , we teach people basically to be who they are and maladapt them for living in a society filled with different personality types. People need to be taught to mediate their responses.

Surely you can see that society would change dramatically when in the office environment we'd see people colliding their personalities into each other because they were taught it is righteous to express yourself in the unique way that you are and be all you can be?

Of course this doesn't only affect children, no of course not. Adults constantly feel the pressures of the demand to be more extroverted too, for an array of different reasons, Ill use landing a job as an example. So many businesses now implement mbti in their interview/hiring process to weed out introverted types from ever being hired because they prefer extroverted personalities. So basically, they use a test, whose foundation was created by an introvert(Carl Jung, INTP)to weed out the type of great minds that invented their beloved test in the first place.

Carl Jung. Well, I am RIGHT NOW, reading his book on Personality Types. I finished Chapter I. In this chapter he repeatedly says he cannot and would be wrong to do so, type any of the historical figures he talks about, like Plato or Arbélard or Origenes.

Where do you see this proof that MBTI is being misused? If personnel managers and HR departments use the MBTI, then it seems odd they would use this system and yet discard the outcomes of a potential employee being introverted when the job description clearly defines the need of an introvert.

I don't know if Jung was an introvert, but maybe it is in the book. If not, who defined him as such? Jung himself says it is hard to judge a person, especially after the fact, so to say.

Imagine an America with 1/3 of its only introverted population acting like counter-productive, confused jackasses, resisting their potential, living in the grip just so they can fit in with the other 2/3 of the population, I think the evidence of this travesty has already shown itself if you think about it. Ill give you a tiny example, Just turn your t.v on.

That would be dramatic, but would this not always have been the case? In what period of history would you suggest I look for a reversal, where actually the introverted type held the dominant position?

The fact is, that is what I get from Jung's book, is that it is more or less cyclical.

In quite a few Asian countries, being reserved and humble is actually a value that is held in high regard, interestingly enough these countries all outperform the U.S in academics by a gigantic margin. I think that speaks for itself.

What countries? And do they have their own set of problems? Would e.g. in such a land the extraverted type be under pressure?

 

[Variform]

Finland is the 3rd happiest place on earth if I remember correctly, they have a very good system, taxes are high but they seem happy as hell and don't seem to mind one bit.

Always seems funny that happiness is a word often used together with taxes. Is this an american thing?

 

[Variform]

I was wrong it was ranked 7th Saudi Arabia is supposed to be pretty badass too, the place looks like paradise, you are entitled to one free house, and free college education.

Unless you are a woman. You cannot drive, you get raped and YOU get punished. In the meantime your husband beats up the Philippine slave maid who can't even flee because the bastard took her passport.

Oh yes. Saudi Arabia is heaven on Earth. Looks like paradise alright, loads of sand and aircooled malls. Just like the usa! I really need to make it a point not just to refuse to write usa with capitals but all nations.

 

[deadpixel]

How was it once amazing? In what way? What a strange assumption to make. Are you some patriot?

Patriotism truly is america's state religion is it not.

Maybe you can leave the empty rhetoric next time. It is not in my interest.

By this I meant that the united states wasn't as politically corrupt and had good intentions with its new nation with better values, there were exceptions though, like witch trials. I didn't realize that making a thread about how shitty your country is becoming and its impending doom is considered patriotism, You've taught me something new, knowledge is power. For that I thank you sir.

Most of your questions took most of the text out of context and were misconstrued, I dont have the energy to respond to it. Im assuming you are not from the U.S otherwise MOST of this would make sense to you, if you aren't then I dont blame you for not getting it. The way we do things around here are pretty fucked up.

 

[Variform]

Re: America is on its way to idiocracy.

One of the things about America is that we are a melting pot of so many cultures. These other places in the world are more homogeneous than the U.S. so they get along better, they are not fighting each other for equality and what not.

Do you have any idea how many different nationalities live in, say, Germany or France?

Americans always seem to use this argument. It is not as if European nations never had any immigration.

Also, here everything has turned into a big business. Education is big business, health care is big business, prisons are big business. We are a materialistic society, I get why sometime things may seem so dismal, but I don't think it is all that bad, at least I hope not. I think people who want to learn will find a way.

I don't see how, when you are indoctrinated from birth with the science paradigm i.c.w. materialistic hyper-consumption. Our climate suffers. And despite the fact we try to buy energy saving bulbs and now LED lighting, we keep consuming gadget that need recharging etc.

Are we really learning? Nope.

You have to look at the big picture. If you make more money but pay more taxes, and more for gasoline, and more for other things, what's the difference to living in the US? Other than you just like it there better? If you like it there, then it is worth it, but if your just doing it for a monetary advantage, it may be just break even. Who knows?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Well, sent from one of them gadgets... Right.

The difference is a curse word. Socialism. Omg he is a commie. Solidarity here is anchored in law. Maybe that is different. We do not have schizophrenic homeless people pushing carts. We have better social safety nets. But no worries, we are copying america in so many ways that I have bo doubt soon we will more breakdown of these safety nets than we already had.

 

[Variform]

By this I meant that the united states wasn't as politically corrupt and had good intentions with its new nation with better values, there were exceptions though, like witch trials. I didn't realize that making a thread about how shitty your country is becoming and its impending doom is considered patriotism, You've taught me something new, knowledge is power. For that I thank you sir.

I just saw you make many statements that had no source and seemed assumptions.

Most of your questions took most of the text out of context and were misconstrued, I dont have the energy to respond to it.

Of course not.

[/quote]
Im assuming you are not from the U.S otherwise MOST of this would make sense to you, if you aren't then I dont blame you for not getting it. The way we do things around here are pretty fucked up.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately it spills over to the rest of the world. Informal imperialism it is called.

 

[Absurdity]

If the US is experiencing intellectual decline it is due to dysgenics. Stuff mentioned in the OP is just symptomatic.

 

[Red myst]

Re: America is on its way to idiocracy.

Do you have any idea how many different nationalities live in, say, Germany or France?

Americans always seem to use this argument. It is not as if European nations never had any immigration.




I don't see how, when you are indoctrinated from birth with the science paradigm i.c.w. materialistic hyper-consumption. Our climate suffers. And despite the fact we try to buy energy saving bulbs and now LED lighting, we keep consuming gadget that need recharging etc.

Are we really learning? Nope.



Well, sent from one of them gadgets... Right.

The difference is a curse word. Socialism. Omg he is a commie. Solidarity here is anchored in law. Maybe that is different. We do not have schizophrenic homeless people pushing carts. We have better social safety nets. But no worries, we are copying america in so many ways that I have bo doubt soon we will more breakdown of these safety nets than we already had.

Where is your country? It is hard to post a reply without examining where you are coming from.

But I will do what I can with what I have. Sounds like you just had to get something off your chest.

I don't know how many different nationalities live in Germany of France, but I do know many of the European countries are a bit closer to economic meltdown than America. And they are a lot more socialist.

America might be a good idea if you are copying it.....
America might be a good idea if so many people want to immigrating here.
America is a good idea for my spouse who immigrated her from her commie country in the 70s
Funny how some immigrants come to America and do better than some Americans that were borne here.
Energy saving lightbulbs are a ripoff. Just like electric cars.
My 1 watt "Gadget" is saving me from turning on my 900 watt desktop PC.

My original point was that I was trying to get someone to think about is I don't understand why so many young Americans who are struggling in their native country with all of the advantages of being a citizen and knowing the ins and outs of the system hear. Plus networking of family and friends think that they can go to a foreign country and do so much better, or that it is easy street.
I think it would be fun, I think it would be an adventure, I would encourage anyone to go and live abroad for a while and experience other cultures. But if your doing it because you can't make it here in the US the way you would like, I don't think it will be any better anywhere else.

That was really what I wanted to say in my post in the first place. Thank you for bringing it to my attention that it needed mor explanation.







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[Doob]

Re: America is on its way to idiocracy.

I don't know how many different nationalities live in Germany of France, but I do know many of the European countries are a bit closer to economic meltdown than America. And they are a lot more socialist.

America might be a good idea if you are copying it.....
America might be a good idea if so many people want to immigrating here.
America is a good idea for my spouse who immigrated her from her commie country in the 70s
Funny how some immigrants come to America and do better than some Americans that were borne here.
Energy saving lightbulbs are a ripoff. Just like electric cars.
My 1 watt "Gadget" is saving me from turning on my 900 watt desktop PC.

My original point was that I was trying to get someone to think about is I don't understand why so many young Americans who are struggling in their native country with all of the advantages of being a citizen and knowing the ins and outs of the system hear. Plus networking of family and friends think that they can go to a foreign country and do so much better, or that it is easy street.
I think it would be fun, I think it would be an adventure, I would encourage anyone to go and live abroad for a while and experience other cultures. But if your doing it because you can't make it here in the US the way you would like, I don't think it will be any better anywhere else.

That was really what I wanted to say in my post in the first place. Thank you for bringing it to my attention that it needed mor explanation.







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There are European countries that do very well and there are European countries that struggle. The countries that do well are also a lot more "socialist" than the US just as the ones that struggle. The US also has a lot more political and military power so that it gets away with things other countries wouldn't get away with.

"Socialism" is also not the only reason why for example Greece struggles there were a lot of "capitalistic" forces at work as well. You might want to look into the reasons why these countries struggle and why we (the world) have these financial problems in the first place.
----
I think the reason why people from other countries can outperform some native US Americans is because they are from other countries. It gives you a different perspective and you can take the good things you learned in your country with you and use them to your advantage while you leave the bad things behind. Additionally I think that sometimes as an outsider you notice things that someone who lived there his whole life doesn't simply because he takes it for granted. All in all living in or at least experiencing different countries, their culture and their way of life gives you a lot of experience and perspective that is in my opinion invaluable.

 

[King_Be_Us]

Re: America is on its way to idiocracy.

Play a video game that you would never play in a thousand lifetimes then complete every objective, side mission, and achievement. America really isn't that stupid, just brainwashed. Viva la perspective...

 

[Red myst]

Re: America is on its way to idiocracy.

There are European countries that do very well and there are European countries that struggle. The countries that do well are also a lot more "socialist" than the US just as the ones that struggle. The US also has a lot more political and military power so that it gets away with things other countries wouldn't get away with.

"Socialism" is also not the only reason why for example Greece struggles there were a lot of "capitalistic" forces at work as well. You might want to look into the reasons why these countries struggle and why we (the world) have these financial problems in the first place.
----
I think the reason why people from other countries can outperform some native US Americans is because they are from other countries. It gives you a different perspective and you can take the good things you learned in your country with you and use them to your advantage while you leave the bad things behind. Additionally I think that sometimes as an outsider you notice things that someone who lived there his whole life doesn't simply because he takes it for granted. All in all living in or at least experiencing different countries, their culture and their way of life gives you a lot of experience and perspective that is in my opinion invaluable.

Yes, a voice of reason. You are right about the reason some people from other countries can out perform US native citizens. So you just reinforced my point that we already have what we need here. You just need to change your prospective to see it.


I have reservations about socialism and capitalism. I am not a "believer" in either one in its pure form. I don't think it is a problem that can ever be solved. Or even if it is a problem. Perhaps it is the way the world is supposed to work. Swinging back and forth between variations of the two. If you realize this and prepare and adapt for it, it won't become a problem. Jus a thought.......


Not all Americans are the same any more than all Europeans or Asians or whatever are the same. But I am sure you know this already.


I do also think you are right about America getting its way because of its political and military power. I don't know much about stats and things like that, but I find it is a two way street though. I think there is tons of foreign aid and military protection for a lot of foreign countries. I'm sure there are wheeling and dealings going back and forth between countries for this. America is not going in and forcibly taking anything from anybody. And a lot of countries want to do business here.
It kind of reminds me of visiting Hawaii. It may be a poor example, but my experience is that Hawaiians love tourist till we run out of money.
But like I was saying, it can't be fixed. It is what it is.
But thanks to the Internet and forums like this one, we can communicate with each other and bypass the stupid cable news and official government channels to get a better perspective.

 

[Variform]

Re: America is on its way to idiocracy.

Where is your country? It is hard to post a reply without examining where you are coming from.

What does it matter except to dig up dirt?

I don't know how many different nationalities live in Germany of France, but I do know many of the European countries are a bit closer to economic meltdown than America. And they are a lot more socialist.

I don't think we are doing worse than the usa to be honest. Your national debt is a big problem. And every time there is a deadline... scary.

America might be a good idea if you are copying it.....
America might be a good idea if so many people want to immigrating here.
America is a good idea for my spouse who immigrated her from her commie country in the 70s

Copying american style capitalism and economics, not a good idea. It is all about hyper-consumption. And wastefulness.

People want to emigrate to the usa because of propaganda. You can read about it in 'The Eagle's Shadow', by Mark Hertsgaard. A book that was not going to be published in america because there was no interest in it. Then there was 11-9-01. And suddenly all americans wanted to know 'why do they hate us'. The book was to be published in my country first, so now you can find where I live :-)

Basically, people watch tv, see commercials and get this skewed idea about america. And when you are poor, and get propagandised that in america, if you work hard, you can get a better life, the choice will still not be easy, but much more easy overall.

And then you arrive there and find out quickly the country is as hard as any other. You will work or live under a bridge or overpass. And you will work for little. And you will be fired on a second's notice. And you have to pay for everything yourself. Especially health insurance.

It is a good country when you have a dose of luck, have been able and allowed to gain some skills and have a decent employer willing to offer benefits with the job.

It all feels fickle to me, like you are out on the plank over the side of the ship with a sword in your back and the social safety nets...well. They might catch you, but for how long?

And then, you mortgage your house a second time for the bypass operation. I knew a guy like that in Alaska. Worked all his life...and what do you have to show for it? A debt.

Funny how some immigrants come to America and do better than some Americans that were borne here.

Urban mythology. But I bet yes, there are those who do well. Depends on where you are from. I know a Dutch guy that ran everything west of the Rockies for a big chain store. An immigrant alright.

Energy saving lightbulbs are a ripoff. Just like electric cars.
My 1 watt "Gadget" is saving me from turning on my 900 watt desktop PC.

How so a ripoff? Americans pollute 5 times more than the average European counterpart. Don't you think you have some moral obligation to do what you can to avoid destroying the Earth out of which you are born?

My original point was that I was trying to get someone to think about is I don't understand why so many young Americans who are struggling in their native country with all of the advantages of being a citizen and knowing the ins and outs of the system hear. Plus networking of family and friends think that they can go to a foreign country and do so much better, or that it is easy street.

It is no easy street anywhere. You should come to my socialist dictatorship.

It is interesting because I am reading chapter 2 of Jung's Psychological Types and it mentions that there has been a great change in society over time from indovidialism to collectivism, where the worth of the individual has been narrowed down to what he can do, what function he has to be of use to society. And that this has been more and more specified.

You know what I mean right? That we have workers who know how to do some task, only that task and nothing else. Super-specialization. Graphic design e.g. You can do that but can't code a single line for the game you help making.

Things have changed dramatically to 'american conditions' as we say here. You either work or are in some education. There is no in-between. You work or are disabled, with the emphasis on being forced to work in or with what you can still do. Safety nets are systematically reduced.

They americanize the labor market calling it 'flexibility' meaning that employers can fire you easily, yet when you are on the dole as per the English expression, the money you receive lasts 6 months and is very low. So you are forced to work and prove you apply for work. If not, you will be sanctioned. After 6 months you end up on welfare. Which is even lower.

When on welfare, you are regarded by our society as scum. You talk about 'welfare queens' and stuff like that. Probably such people are myths. Just an easy target to unload irritation onto. Like people do here./

On welfare your ass is owned by the state, increasingly so.

Imagine that the overall impression politicians are not shy of using is that someone in welfare situations is a beer drinking, couch potato watching tv all day in a jogging pants. And then when he does apply for work, he goes to his interview dressed like that.

Now some politicians say that we should force people to wear a nice suit to the application. Image, the government telling you how you should be dressed.

In the meantime, if you are without work too long, you can be forced to re-education and in the meantime of that, you are expected in some municipalties to work for your allowance!

Image that! This is how that works. You should not be idle, because you lose the work rhythm. So you work in some menial job like walking around the local park with a stick with a point, to prick waste off the ground into a plastic bag. Municipal clean up, you know. And you do this not for the government, but for a private business. This business employs you and gets your wage from the government. While you are allowed to have your welfare allowance.

Basically this is slavery. Because there is no longer a connection between work and salary. This is a complete upturning of that principle.

All because the cost of this socialist welfare dictatorship is so high, they need everyone, diabled or not, to do something. Underlying is a paradigm that you are only useful to society and yourself if you work. Because, is their argument, it is good for your self-respect if you do something useful, even if it is just typing one letter a day, with one finger, drooling on your shoulder in your wheelchair.

There is no respect anymore. There is no option anymore to do nothing. There are some books about the art of doing nothing. There is a case made for laziness. And that it is useful.

Is it different in the usa? I doubt it. It may not be your municipality chasing you around, but just a way of life that is based on money and keeping your own pants up. Americans are all about taking responsibility, but it is just the same as, no work, sleep in your car, lose your house, lose your kids to child services.

"We've all seen a man at the liquor store beggin' for your change
The hair on his face is dirty, dread-locked, and full of mange
He asks a man for what he could spare, with shame in his eyes
"Get a job, you fucking slob," is all he's replied
God forbid, you ever had to walk a mile in his shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to sing the blues"

Everlast - What it's Like

There si no room anymore in society for people to be still, and think. And contemplate and then inject new ideas into the world. There is no more hermit that comes out of the woods with a revelation. If you wanna do that, you have to study philosophy and have a paid desk job.

I think it would be fun, I think it would be an adventure, I would encourage anyone to go and live abroad for a while and experience other cultures. But if your doing it because you can't make it here in the US the way you would like, I don't think it will be any better anywhere else.

Truly not. Not in Europe anyway.

I am so done with Western culture.

 

[Red myst]

Re: America is on its way to idiocracy.

What does it matter except to dig up dirt?



I don't think we are doing worse than the usa to be honest. Your national debt is a big problem. And every time there is a deadline... scary.



Copying american style capitalism and economics, not a good idea. It is all about hyper-consumption. And wastefulness.

People want to emigrate to the usa because of propaganda. You can read about it in 'The Eagle's Shadow', by Mark Hertsgaard. A book that was not going to be published in america because there was no interest in it. Then there was 11-9-01. And suddenly all americans wanted to know 'why do they hate us'. The book was to be published in my country first, so now you can find where I live :-)

Basically, people watch tv, see commercials and get this skewed idea about america. And when you are poor, and get propagandised that in america, if you work hard, you can get a better life, the choice will still not be easy, but much more easy overall.

And then you arrive there and find out quickly the country is as hard as any other. You will work or live under a bridge or overpass. And you will work for little. And you will be fired on a second's notice. And you have to pay for everything yourself. Especially health insurance.

It is a good country when you have a dose of luck, have been able and allowed to gain some skills and have a decent employer willing to offer benefits with the job.

It all feels fickle to me, like you are out on the plank over the side of the ship with a sword in your back and the social safety nets...well. They might catch you, but for how long?

And then, you mortgage your house a second time for the bypass operation. I knew a guy like that in Alaska. Worked all his life...and what do you have to show for it? A debt.



Urban mythology. But I bet yes, there are those who do well. Depends on where you are from. I know a Dutch guy that ran everything west of the Rockies for a big chain store. An immigrant alright.



How so a ripoff? Americans pollute 5 times more than the average European counterpart. Don't you think you have some moral obligation to do what you can to avoid destroying the Earth out of which you are born?



It is no easy street anywhere. You should come to my socialist dictatorship.

It is interesting because I am reading chapter 2 of Jung's Psychological Types and it mentions that there has been a great change in society over time from indovidialism to collectivism, where the worth of the individual has been narrowed down to what he can do, what function he has to be of use to society. And that this has been more and more specified.

You know what I mean right? That we have workers who know how to do some task, only that task and nothing else. Super-specialization. Graphic design e.g. You can do that but can't code a single line for the game you help making.

Things have changed dramatically to 'american conditions' as we say here. You either work or are in some education. There is no in-between. You work or are disabled, with the emphasis on being forced to work in or with what you can still do. Safety nets are systematically reduced.

They americanize the labor market calling it 'flexibility' meaning that employers can fire you easily, yet when you are on the dole as per the English expression, the money you receive lasts 6 months and is very low. So you are forced to work and prove you apply for work. If not, you will be sanctioned. After 6 months you end up on welfare. Which is even lower.

When on welfare, you are regarded by our society as scum. You talk about 'welfare queens' and stuff like that. Probably such people are myths. Just an easy target to unload irritation onto. Like people do here./

On welfare your ass is owned by the state, increasingly so.

Imagine that the overall impression politicians are not shy of using is that someone in welfare situations is a beer drinking, couch potato watching tv all day in a jogging pants. And then when he does apply for work, he goes to his interview dressed like that.

Now some politicians say that we should force people to wear a nice suit to the application. Image, the government telling you how you should be dressed.

In the meantime, if you are without work too long, you can be forced to re-education and in the meantime of that, you are expected in some municipalties to work for your allowance!

Image that! This is how that works. You should not be idle, because you lose the work rhythm. So you work in some menial job like walking around the local park with a stick with a point, to prick waste off the ground into a plastic bag. Municipal clean up, you know. And you do this not for the government, but for a private business. This business employs you and gets your wage from the government. While you are allowed to have your welfare allowance.

Basically this is slavery. Because there is no longer a connection between work and salary. This is a complete upturning of that principle.

All because the cost of this socialist welfare dictatorship is so high, they need everyone, diabled or not, to do something. Underlying is a paradigm that you are only useful to society and yourself if you work. Because, is their argument, it is good for your self-respect if you do something useful, even if it is just typing one letter a day, with one finger, drooling on your shoulder in your wheelchair.

There is no respect anymore. There is no option anymore to do nothing. There are some books about the art of doing nothing. There is a case made for laziness. And that it is useful.

Is it different in the usa? I doubt it. It may not be your municipality chasing you around, but just a way of life that is based on money and keeping your own pants up. Americans are all about taking responsibility, but it is just the same as, no work, sleep in your car, lose your house, lose your kids to child services.

"We've all seen a man at the liquor store beggin' for your change
The hair on his face is dirty, dread-locked, and full of mange
He asks a man for what he could spare, with shame in his eyes
"Get a job, you fucking slob," is all he's replied
God forbid, you ever had to walk a mile in his shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to sing the blues"

Everlast - What it's Like

There si no room anymore in society for people to be still, and think. And contemplate and then inject new ideas into the world. There is no more hermit that comes out of the woods with a revelation. If you wanna do that, you have to study philosophy and have a paid desk job.



Truly not. Not in Europe anyway.

I am so done with Western culture.

The first thing that strikes me is that despite how hostile you seemed to be at first, we are much more on the same page about a lot of things. The OP cooperbrown504 is disillusioned about his country. It happens to everybody when they find out there is no Santa clause, god, and that we have been sold a pack of lies. Once you shake off all of that, you have to begin moving forward and developing your own world view. The lies are not really lies, but not the complete truth. We don't want cynical 2 year olds lol.
I am glad you have a nose for propaganda. I am glad you see through the lies about america having streets of gold. But I hope you are not being selective about which propaganda you choose to believe. There is as much negative propaganda as positive about the us and others places.
I have been reading Jung's work also. I have come to my own conclusion about collectivism vs individualism. And it comes down to temperaments really.
We are not all the same. There is no one size fits all. Some people prefer socialism, some prefer capitalism. I understand that. But many people do not have a very deep understanding of either one. I know people who like socialism because they only look at what is free and how easy it would be. And I know people who like capitalism because they are predatorial and ready to capitalize and monopolize on the less educated and unsuspecting.

It is funny how you are cynical about how your country is becoming more capitalistic, and I am cynical about how my country is becoming more socialistic.
Perhaps it is all just societal growing pains. The world looks like a co-dependent nightmare the way the politics world wide have us all strung together. I see the world as a ball with a bunch of band-aids holding it together.
Anyway, you have written a reply that i need to filter through my Ti for a while before I get back to the rest of what you were saying.
Oh, by the way, energy efficient light-bulbs are a ripoff because they are not as cost efficient as the would lead you to believe. They do draw a lot less electricity, and the do seem to last longer that traditional bulbs, But the do not last the hours that they say. So in that sense they are a rip-off. Perhaps I bought a bad batch.....TWICE....... or some thing else is the cause, but they seem to only last about twice as long as ordinary bulbs.

 

[deadpixel]

Re: America is on its way to idiocracy.

The first thing that strikes me is that despite how hostile you seemed to be at first, we are much more on the same page about a lot of things. The OP cooperbrown504 is disillusioned about his country. It happens to everybody when they find out there is no Santa clause, god, and that we have been sold a pack of lies. Once you shake off all of that, you have to begin moving forward and developing your own world view. The lies are not really lies, but not the complete truth. We don't want cynical 2 year olds lol.
I am glad you have a nose for propaganda. I am glad you see through the lies about america having streets of gold. But I hope you are not being selective about which propaganda you choose to believe. There is as much negative propaganda as positive about the us and others places.
I have been reading Jung's work also. I have come to my own conclusion about collectivism vs individualism. And it comes down to temperaments really.
We are not all the same. There is no one size fits all. Some people prefer socialism, some prefer capitalism. I understand that. But many people do not have a very deep understanding of either one. I know people who like socialism because they only look at what is free and how easy it would be. And I know people who like capitalism because they are predatorial and ready to capitalize and monopolize on the less educated and unsuspecting.

It is funny how you are cynical about how your country is becoming more capitalistic, and I am cynical about how my country is becoming more socialistic.
Perhaps it is all just societal growing pains. The world looks like a co-dependent nightmare the way the politics world wide have us all strung together. I see the world as a ball with a bunch of band-aids holding it together.
Anyway, you have written a reply that i need to filter through my Ti for a while before I get back to the rest of what you were saying.
Oh, by the way, energy efficient light-bulbs are a ripoff because they are not as cost efficient as the would lead you to believe. They do draw a lot less electricity, and the do seem to last longer that traditional bulbs, But the do not last the hours that they say. So in that sense they are a rip-off. Perhaps I bought a bad batch.....TWICE....... or some thing else is the cause, but they seem to only last about twice as long as ordinary bulbs.

LOL im not disillusioned about my country, what is happening here in the United States is no illusion. Introverts being pressured into extroverts is only one example of why its crashing down, The federal reserve is another reason, I could list tons of reasons but im not going to, I dont have the energy.

 

[Red myst]

Re: America is on its way to idiocracy.

LOL im not disillusioned about my country, what is happening here in the United States is no illusion. Introverts being pressured into extroverts is only one example of why its crashing down, The federal reserve is another reason, I could list tons of reasons but im not going to, I dont have the energy.

By "disillusioned" I simply meant that your OP gives the impression that you at one time had a higher opinion of your country. "I think that this is a huge reason that Americans and this country that was once so amazing, founded by amazing men who envisioned great things" Its the words you used. which in my opinion were ideals learned in school. And now that you have begun thinking on your own, you are discovering that all is not what you were taught in school. Questioning the things you do is a good. Its expected of a thinker who questions the "herd" mentality.

I was responding to Variform asking you if you were some kind of patriot. I was simply stating that i though he was being inaccurate about his interpretation of your post and how he seemed so aggressive in trying to pick it apart on this misinterpretation.

 

[scorpiomover]

Introverts, whom only make up an estimated 1/3 of the U.S population to begin with,

It's about 50%.

are being forced into extroversion at an alarming rate.

When I was a kid, there was no such thing as people being "forced" to be extroverted. Far from it. We were free to spend as much time alone as we wanted. All we had to do, was go outside. Even so, we still spent far more time with people than people do nowadays.

Where the world has changed, is that school, university and work have become a lot more extroverted, and socially, we've become a lot more introverted. It's out of kilter, too extreme, on both counts.

America seems to be creating a self generating supply of Introverts(whom are already lacking in number)that convert themselves to extroverts, because introverts are taught from their very first day of school that they are not normal.

When I was a kid, there was no such thing as "introverts". There were simply people who loved to socialise, and people who only liked it a little. It's become cool to be an introvert, when introversion is simply a trait. Extroverts are just as capable as introverts.

Individualism is the order of the day, and it's also too extreme. We need balance.

They are made to believe that something is wrong with them, that they are weird, nerdy, uncool, and they are forced to learn in school with a "one size fits all" extroverted learning style. This is too much for an introvert and they cant handle it, all of the sudden these seemingly gentle natured kids are labeled as trouble makers and constantly end up in the disciplinary office.

As I said, school, university and the workplace, have become a LOT more extroverted. A lot of that is because today, people idolise science. Today, people think that just because some scientist came up with some idea, that the entire world should do what those scientists say, even when they clearly don't understand it. We've become obsessed with treating scientists as if they were Catholic priests.

In today's society, I admire the young introverts of their generation who have accepted who they are and refuse to drink the Kool-aid.

They're part of the problem. They think they have a RIGHT to spout any old nonsense that pops into their heads.

Imagine how much chaos this is going to cause in the future, how much chaos it has already caused. I cant imagine anything worse than an introvert forcing themselves into an unnatural state of extroversion, I feel deeply sorry for the young introverts of today for the UNNECESSARY pressures and confusion that is brought upon them by the system. Forcing them to suppress their natural talent, ingenuity, and uniqueness.

Then drop this obsession with science, because that's where it's coming from. Science is about ideas that MIGHT be true, but usually aren't, and at best, are merely useful in SOME situations.

Of course this doesn't only affect children, no of course not. Adults constantly feel the pressures of the demand to be more extroverted too, for an array of different reasons, Ill use landing a job as an example. So many businesses now implement mbti in their interview/hiring process to weed out introverted types from ever being hired because they prefer extroverted personalities. So basically, they use a test, whose foundation was created by an introvert(Carl Jung, INTP)to weed out the type of great minds that invented their beloved test in the first place.

They're only using Jung's ideas, because people think of him as a "scientist", and so, he must be right, even about things that they clearly do NOT understand.

Imagine an America with 1/3 of its only introverted population acting like counter-productive, confused jackasses, resisting their potential, living in the grip just so they can fit in with the other 2/3 of the population, I think the evidence of this travesty has already shown itself if you think about it. Ill give you a tiny example, Just turn your t.v on.

-Learning channels are no longer meant for learning
-Nothing but reality t.v on nearly every channel, there's not even anything realistic about it, Why are they trying to convince people that these shows are what REAL LIFE is like?
-Nothing but HORRIBLE AS SEEN ON TV INVENTIONS, slap chops, sham wows, HD EYEGLASSES?!?!?..... you get the point.(probably all inventions of the fake ENTP)

That's what happens when you treat scientists like priests.

In quite a few Asian countries, being reserved and humble is actually a value that is held in high regard, interestingly enough these countries all outperform the U.S in academics by a gigantic margin. I think that speaks for itself.

That's because the Chinese still believe in things like Chinese medicine, and Buddhism. Westerners laugh at them for not following science right down to the hilt, and for still following religious ideas.

Finland is the 3rd happiest place on earth if I remember correctly, they have a very good system, taxes are high but they seem happy as hell and don't seem to mind one bit.

From what I've read, it's also highly extroverted.

 

[deadpixel]

It's about 50%.

When I was a kid, there was no such thing as people being "forced" to be extroverted. Far from it. We were free to spend as much time alone as we wanted. All we had to do, was go outside. Even so, we still spent far more time with people than people do nowadays.

Where the world has changed, is that school, university and work have become a lot more extroverted, and socially, we've become a lot more introverted. It's out of kilter, too extreme, on both counts.

When I was a kid, there was no such thing as "introverts". There were simply people who loved to socialise, and people who only liked it a little. It's become cool to be an introvert, when introversion is simply a trait. Extroverts are just as capable as introverts.

Individualism is the order of the day, and it's also too extreme. We need balance.

As I said, school, university and the workplace, have become a LOT more extroverted. A lot of that is because today, people idolise science. Today, people think that just because some scientist came up with some idea, that the entire world should do what those scientists say, even when they clearly don't understand it. We've become obsessed with treating scientists as if they were Catholic priests.

They're part of the problem. They think they have a RIGHT to spout any old nonsense that pops into their heads.

Then drop this obsession with science, because that's where it's coming from. Science is about ideas that MIGHT be true, but usually aren't, and at best, are merely useful in SOME situations.

They're only using Jung's ideas, because people think of him as a "scientist", and so, he must be right, even about things that they clearly do NOT understand.

That's what happens when you treat scientists like priests.

That's because the Chinese still believe in things like Chinese medicine, and Buddhism. Westerners laugh at them for not following science right down to the hilt, and for still following religious ideas.

From what I've read, it's also highly extroverted.

Theres lots of reasons why things are the way that they are. The federal reserve, religion, corruption, but ive never seen anybody touch base on how american society has become so extroverted which is why I bring it up now. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but from my own personal experience and the personal experiences of others, people using their inferior functions for the wrong reasons leads to pretty bad things.

 

[scorpiomover]

Theres lots of reasons why things are the way that they are. The federal reserve, religion, corruption, but ive never seen anybody touch base on how american society has become so extroverted which is why I bring it up now.

Funny, because it's all anyone seems to talk about on the internet. I've seen it raised in posts hundreds of times.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but from my own personal experience and the personal experiences of others, people using their inferior functions for the wrong reasons leads to pretty bad things.

Such as?

 

[digitalbum]

The belief that everything is going to shit is so insanely ubiquitous throughout human history that it should be on the list of human universals.

That said, certain countries do at times "go to shit". Is America going to shit? God, I hope not. It is possible, and if it is, the reason is the same as it always is: being at the top lulls you into a false sense of security and leads to decadence.

That's what truly bothers me about a lot of people, especially on internet forums. They are so nihilistic it is sickening. They have no sense of what is important life, nor do they have a sense that the current stability isn't given, nor do they have a sense that we have enemies who are working every day to overtake us.

Their de facto slogans, of which there are many, mostly revolve around how "we don't know anything" and "we shouldn't judge anyone". I believe people get these ideas because they have never witnessed the sort of injustice that violently wrenches those beliefs right out of your head.

It's a cruel irony: having worked to get to the top, you find yourself with the tremendous disadvantage of forgetting why you felt it necessary to work to the top in the first place. Obviously this is exacerbated by the fact that young people have no life experience, so they are particularly prone to saying these sorts of things. Those on the bottom live through hardships that motivate them. Those on top do not.

Then again, that's not absolute. There are a lot of bright, hard working people in America and a lot of promise in the youth. But as a general trend, I fear nihilism might be the case--at least enough for other nations to be catching up.

You also, of course, get the corresponding glut of consumerism that often comes with wealth and people think it is more important to spend a year planning a 5-figure wedding than working to educate themselves or know what's going on in the world.

But yeah. I just wish people would stop being so dumb. There's a lot at stake.

Word to ya mutha.

Plus generation X, and god help us even worse, generation Y are riding the coattails of our parents' hard earned success. So many spoiled brats and pampered upbringings (yes, I include myself in this).

It's led to an almost epidemic level of lazies and self-entitled Manchildren and M.R.S. degree hunting women.

Probably.

 

[deadpixel]

Such as?

I dont want you to get the wrong idea, theres nothing wrong with being an extrovert and there is nothing wrong with extroverts. I dont believe that people should be pressured into being someone or something that they arent, people should be whoever they want to be and however they feel the most comfortable. Pressuring Introverts to be extroverts, or even extroverts to be introverts will force them to use inferior functions, and this could lead people to grip experiences.

Im not going to give you my own horrific stories of when I uncontrollably used my inferior functions. But the theory goes something like this.

Inferior functions tends to be the least interesting to individuals, and they tend to have even fewer skills associated with it. Development of these functions tends to come in late midlife. It can be the source of great stress, or it can be a seed for significant development.

For example, if Thinking were your dominant function, Feeling would be your least-preferred function. You would probably have significantly less interest in and fewer skills with the Feeling function (e.g., attending to harmony in relationships, giving weight to the personal aspects of decision making).

We often call the fourth function the inferior function when it emerges without conscious intention and tries to overpower the dominant and auxiliary. This can lead to a person feeling “in the grip” of his or her inferior function. The inferior may also manifest under stress, when resources of the dominant and auxiliary are exhausted. When the inferior function manifests in someone’s life, that person may say, “I don’t know what got into me.” It often feels like being out of control (outside the conscious ego). The inferior may manifest in negative, immature ways.

For example, Intuition as an inferior Intuition may manifest not as creative possibilities, but rather as worry over every possibility that can go wrong. Sensing may manifest not as attention to details, but rather as an obsession with them.

 

[deadpixel]

Another example of a little introverted girl in an extroverted classroom.

My math teacher took away my paper when I wasn't working with a group. I did what she said after that. And what a coincidence, I failed the test! She forces everyone to get into groups and the class moves so slowly that I can't keep up.

 

[digitalbum]

I dont want you to get the wrong idea, theres nothing wrong with being an extrovert and there is nothing wrong with extroverts. I dont believe that people should be pressured into being someone or something that they arent, people should be whoever they want to be and however they feel the most comfortable. Pressuring Introverts to be extroverts, or even extroverts to be introverts will force them to use inferior functions, and this could lead people to grip experiences.

Im not going to give you my own horrific stories of when I uncontrollably used my inferior functions. But the theory goes something like this.

Inferior functions tends to be the least interesting to individuals, and they tend to have even fewer skills associated with it. Development of these functions tends to come in late midlife. It can be the source of great stress, or it can be a seed for significant development.

For example, if Thinking were your dominant function, Feeling would be your least-preferred function. You would probably have significantly less interest in and fewer skills with the Feeling function (e.g., attending to harmony in relationships, giving weight to the personal aspects of decision making).

We often call the fourth function the inferior function when it emerges without conscious intention and tries to overpower the dominant and auxiliary. This can lead to a person feeling “in the grip” of his or her inferior function. The inferior may also manifest under stress, when resources of the dominant and auxiliary are exhausted. When the inferior function manifests in someone’s life, that person may say, “I don’t know what got into me.” It often feels like being out of control (outside the conscious ego). The inferior may manifest in negative, immature ways.

For example, Intuition as an inferior Intuition may manifest not as creative possibilities, but rather as worry over every possibility that can go wrong. Sensing may manifest not as attention to details, but rather as an obsession with them.

Instead of slogging through this entire thread, so are you saying that introverts are the ones in the background that oil the machine of economy and science and technological advancements?

If so, I wouldn't disagree.

And what, introverts are becoming pressured to be extroverts, thus disrupting their natural state and possibly causing some kind of dysfunctional neuroses?

Gimme the quick and dirty.

 

[deadpixel]

Instead of slogging through this entire thread, so are you saying that introverts are the ones in the background that oil the machine of economy and science and technological advancements?

If so, I wouldn't disagree.

And what, introverts are becoming pressured to be extroverts, thus disrupting their natural state and possibly causing some kind of dysfunctional neuroses?

Gimme the quick and dirty.

Yep

 

[digitalbum]

Yep

Well alrighty.

 

[Variform]

Re: America is on its way to idiocracy.

Thanks for your reply and understanding.

I have been reading Jung's work also. I have come to my own conclusion about collectivism vs individualism. And it comes down to temperaments really.
We are not all the same. There is no one size fits all. Some people prefer socialism, some prefer capitalism. I understand that. But many people do not have a very deep understanding of either one. I know people who like socialism because they only look at what is free and how easy it would be. And I know people who like capitalism because they are predatorial and ready to capitalize and monopolize on the less educated and unsuspecting.

So do you think that because people lack insight in their personality that the concepts of socialism and capitalism are not well understood? Or the other way around?

Could you clarify as I am interested in how these things affect each other.

Perhaps it is all just societal growing pains. The world looks like a co-dependent nightmare the way the politics world wide have us all strung together. I see the world as a ball with a bunch of band-aids holding it together.

We keep growing but is this growth progress or cancer? Looking at history we feel we made progress. But not in all things. In some things we do worse.

About the lighting: I replaced almost all my lighting now with LED. I have a LED tube in my kitchen, cost me €40,- which is a load of money. But it rocks. Excellent light and it flips on without the stutter of the old fluorescents. Only 8W. In time will save a lot of Earth.

 

[Variform]

Word to ya mutha.

Plus generation X, and god help us even worse, generation Y are riding the coattails of our parents' hard earned success. So many spoiled brats and pampered upbringings (yes, I include myself in this).

It's led to an almost epidemic level of lazies and self-entitled Manchildren and M.R.S. degree hunting women.

Probably.

What about the feminization of men in society?

Our society is still male oriented. There has been a movement against that over the last decades, I guess since the 1960's.

We see commercials now with men pushing trolleys with babies, changing diapers. The 'modern man' behaves more and more like a man, with their wife being out at work and the man doing household tasks.

In the case where the man still works, often the female partner does too. When she does not, the man is still obliged to do housework, to alleviate the burden of the woman, because it is noble for a man to do so.

Recently we have seen a slight backlash here. A tc channel that actively promotes maleness. The slogan is 'More for Men!' And we get to see (violent) movies.

We also have a commercial where growling, tough men trek to a bar in the wilderness for a beer.

For decades the male perspective has been under pressure. When tow males have a conflict, there can be a fight. But then the males figured it out and move on. Can even become friends.

I experienced this myself once. There was a new kid in the class and because I felt just about the lowest of the pecking order I felt the need to establish myself as having more rights. I punched him a black eye, which is highly unlike me and, to my astonishment, got me the approval of some of my classmates, even girls! A day later we were friends and stayed friends for years. He was not mad for long about it.

Men handle conflicts differently, but we have been taught to believe that way is a bad way.

Maybe when it comes to war it is. The male dominator society has drawbacks.

I wonder what influence this rope pulling between male and female values has on society. Does it over arch the personality type situation of introversion and extroversion?

Any ideas people?