My Issue (Long)

[Dissident]

I can't agree on materialism either lol. Traditional materialism in modern western philosophy is based off of Thomas Hobbes, who basically took many of Descartes's theories as being truth, and then extended them further to say that there is no mind/body problem because there is no "mind."

Im talking about materialism in a general sense, I dont speak for any philosopher, materialist or else, but I think this is a problem of definition and the baggage carried by the terminology.
I dont see how saying that there is no mind is extending Descartes further, cogito ergo sum tells you that if there is one thing that you can be sure exists, is the mind.

Mind:
1: recollection , memory <keep that in mind> <time out of mind>
2 a: the element or complex of elements in an individual that feels, perceives, thinks, wills, and especially reasons b: the conscious mental events and capabilities in an organism c: the organized conscious and unconscious adaptive mental activity of an organism
3: intention , desire <I changed my mind>
4: the normal or healthy condition of the mental faculties
5: opinion , view
6: disposition , mood
7 a: a person or group embodying mental qualities <the public mind> b: intellectual ability
8capitalized Christian Science : god 1b
9: a conscious substratum or factor in the universe
10: attention <pay him no mind>

Why should "mind" be understood as immaterial/supernatural? I dont see how someone can arrive to things like soul because of any other reason than not being able to explain it at the time, so "there has to be something else besides the brain". Thats just giving up.

Consciusness/mind is directly affected by the brain, this is a fact isnt it? What fact is there to support a soul or other supernatual/immaterial agent being part of it or influencing it? What argument can be put forth that wont get a big cut from the Razor?

The primary non-epistemological objection to it is, by the way, that it seems to discredit that spark of conscienciousness that doesn't seem to just be a mixture of chemical reactions. Imagination, especially spontaneous imaginings/problem solving seem to be hard to explain by chemical reactions. Like I said, it seems a weak objection.

Wittgenstein was speaking with a colleague and asked: "Tell me, why do people always say it was natural for men to assume that the sun went round the earth, rather than that the earth was rotating?" His friend replied, "Well, obviously, because it just looks as if the sun is going round the earth." To which Wittgenstein replied, "Well, what would it have looked like if it had looked as if the earth was rotating?"

Consciusness doesnt "seem" to be produced just on the brain? Thats a common sense answer that you hate so much. The universe is queerer than we can suppose

 

[GarmGarf]

How so? How does free will affect gravity, the speed of light, the density of a rock, or entropy?

Again, free will is an abstraction, a metaphysical concept. It's probability and possibility can be debated, but not its existence or validity.

The burden of proof lies on the agent making a proposition. "Determinism describes reality how it is," is a proposition, so both sides have a burden of proof.


Just for clarity, define determinism for me, in your own words. The determinism I understand has nothing to do with physics and everything to do with intelligent agents' (humans at this stage of our knowledge) decision making processes, not causality.

Well, it isn't necessarily the existence of determinism which is what I am basing my argument for free-will's lack of existence.


When an entity makes a decision, all the factors involved can be put under either of the two sets: "the content of the brain"; and "the specific situation".

The mood of a person, their knowledge and their experience all fit under "the content of the brain", while the details of the situation fit under "the specific situation".

This is all that the laws of physics have to compose the decision. Nothing else exists to be put into play, only what is in "the content of the brain" and the details of "the specific situation". Since a person exists in the universe, is it fair enough to state that they obey the laws of physics?

Presuming so, well, for free will to exist, the person must have some sort of control over at least one component in the equation; they must have control over an element in either set. If they possess control over nothing, then free will does not exist.

Now, if we take any element within either set of "the content of the brain" or "the specific situation", we can trace it back and find that it was ultimately not under the entity's control. One might state that an individual may "think inside their head, separate to external influences", but this event is, in fact, ultimately governed by external influences. Firstly, the conclusion to the entity's thinking is determined by the content of their brain: if the same stimulus were applied to two different people's minds, if they have different evaluations, this is due to the fact the content of their brains are different to each others'. If traced back, each decision which determined the new content of the brain, will be found that it too was determined by another couple of the sets of "the content of the brain" and "the specific situation". In every situation where an entity "thinks inside its head, separate to external influences", the initial input the brain had to evaluate or alter itself came from the external universe, which wasn't chosen by the individual.

Also, one might state that an individual may put themselves into a situation, which would mean that they had control over the existence of the situation, but then again, any decisions they made about going into the situation follow the same system: "the content of the brain" and "the specific situation"; elements of either, ultimately not being chosen by the individual.

Basically, one doesn't have the power to "choose what they choose". Sure, you may have chose to eat Cornflakes yesterday for breakfast instead of Cheerios, but did you choose to like Cornflakes more than Cheerios? Did you choose for Cheerios to not be in the house yesterday? Etc. And if yes to any, well work back. For example, if Cheerios wasn't in the house because you bought Cornflakes and not Cheerios, well did you choose to like Cornflakes more than Cheerios? Did you choose for Cheerios to not have been available. Etc. And if yes to any, did you choose for Cheerios to exist? Etc.

Effectively, although the entity may be making the choice, they don't have the power to ultimately choose the reasons for their choice. Although one may state: "but they can choose which reason to follow", this isn't true because they would then make a decision of which reason to follow, which the selection would have reasons also. And again, if the person makes their choices based on their feeling and not reason, well, one's emotion is still a reason for making a choice.

Since any element of either of the sets: "the content of the brain" and "the specific situation" can be traced back and found to ultimately not have been in the power of the entity, it can be concluded that free will does not exist due to the fact the entity doesn't have control over any of the inputs.

The reason why the burden of proof is on those who believe free will does exist, is because the universe only has "the content of the brain" and "the specific situation" to work with. Proof must be found for a separate "free will element", if free will's existence were to be proven.

 

[Duty]

I dont see how saying that there is no mind is extending Descartes further, cogito ergo sum tells you that if there is one thing that you can be sure exists, is the mind.

Eh, you misunderstand or I didn't clarify well enough. Hobbes doesn't at all claim that the mind doesn't exist, he just claims that it doesn't exist separate from the material world. Today we understand his philosophy as saying that "consciousness is just a mixture of chemicals firing off neurons in the brain," whereas Descartes would claim the mind as being something altogether different from the material, and that consciousness is something that happens because of a soul or something similar.

Why should "mind" be understood as immaterial/supernatural? I dont see how someone can arrive to things like soul because of any other reason than not being able to explain it at the time, so "there has to be something else besides the brain". Thats just giving up.

Heh, I agree tbh, but I can see the early moderns' point of view on this pretty clearly. Consciousness seems to be something special away from inanimate things like trees, books, and tables...which are material.

Think of the problem in modern/sci-fi terms: Are AIs conscious? Can a conscious AI be built?
Although I admit my first instinct is to say that it's possible for such to happen, I have to admit that it's impossible to tell if an AI had that "spark" that is consciousness. Computers already think...albeit in a purely descriptive/propositional way (meaning in terms of facts, observations, and such) and not an evaluative one (I like this, X is wrong, We shouldn't do Y), but they don't seem to have that extra part to form conscious thought.

Consciusness/mind is directly affected by the brain, this is a fact isnt it?

This is why Descartes admitted to a mind/body problem. Obviously the outside world has an effect on the body, which then has an effect on the mind. Hobbes just offered a solution to the problem, as did Malebranche with the "Intelligent Extension," Spinoza's metaphysics obviously doesn't include the problem since everything is God, and I never got into Leibniz or Hegel so idk about them.

What fact is there to support a soul or other supernatual/immaterial agent being part of it or influencing it? What argument can be put forth that wont get a big cut from the Razor?

There isn't any argument for knowing any of these to be true. I would think materialism to be 10000 times more likely then a soul or some other religious nonsense, but KNOWING it to be true is a much larger step to take...and one that I don't feel educated on philosophy enough to yet take.

Consciusness doesnt "seem" to be produced just on the brain? Thats a common sense answer that you hate so much. The universe is queerer than we can suppose

You seem to put me into the enemy camp here, when I advocate neither view.




Will get back around to answering you tomorrow Garm. You have a lot for me to read.

 

[Dissident]

Think of the problem in modern/sci-fi terms: Are AIs conscious? Can a conscious AI be built?
Although I admit my first instinct is to say that it's possible for such to happen, I have to admit that it's impossible to tell if an AI had that "spark" that is consciousness. Computers already think...albeit in a purely descriptive/propositional way (meaning in terms of facts, observations, and such) and not an evaluative one (I like this, X is wrong, We shouldn't do Y), but they don't seem to have that extra part to form conscious thought.

This problem only exists now as a result of the "something else" idea. We dont yet know exactly which processess produce consciousness, how can we say if its possible in a machine? Once we know for sure it exists because of such and such, then you can see if a machine can meet those conditions and you will probably have an answer. Even if they made an AI that presents the evaluative thinking you describe, and behaves exactly like a human, does that prove that its conscius? No, it would probably be just a Chinese Room.

There isn't any argument for knowing any of these to be true.

Today we have a set of evidences and arguments for materialism and other for dualism, such arguments exist, noone holds a stance without an argument. As long as none of them is definite proof we have to limit ourselves to analyze both sets and see which seems more likely. which lead us to:

I would think materialism to be 10000 times more likely then a soul or some other religious nonsense, but KNOWING it to be true is a much larger step to take...and one that I don't feel educated on philosophy enough to yet take.

(Noone is claiming to KNOW anything to be TRUE, please stop that. You are arguing with air, im not standing there, Im over here.)

So we have two possibilities, one seems 10000 times more likely than the other, that other is hardly testable, it throws the ball out of the field, its a dead end; the first opens a huge field of study with good chances of arriving to a definitive answer, its coherent with what we know about the universe, etc.
Now we have three options:
*Work in the most likely option, try to figure it out and see where it takes us.
*Take the unlikely option by faith and do some serious arm folding.
*Just stay in the fence.

 

[zxc]

Wow, way to go off topic people! Or is this the new topic?

 

[Duty]

Wow, way to go off topic people! Or is this the new topic?

Ya, I wanted advice for my problems and suddenly we're deep into philosophy...

 

[Duty]

Continuing the philosophy discussion in a new thread here:
http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=1604

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

As far as which needs aren't being fulfilled...I'd say first and foremost the passion for a subject. I enjoy philosophy, but more in the realm of discussing it with others and debating it, which brings me to the second thing...I have no person that cares about me in a non-physical well being sense, no person that respects me, and no person that I can discuss my ideas with. INTPs I think benefit a lot from having a few friends they can go to and say, "Hey, I figured this out and..." I have had only 1 such friend ever. I want to say that going back to college would fulfill that...but it never fulfilled that before (maybe just the wrong college...Oklahoma State is like 40% business majors, 15% agriculture, 10% biology, 10% engineering, 10% education...etc...I think I was one of about 40 philosophy majors out of about 20k students when I went there). Perhaps if I transferred over to OU (which is like 60% social sciences, liberal arts, and education) I might be more likely to meet people...but I wouldn't get my hopes too far up. Oklahoma is not a good state, as far as culture, for an INTP, but I can't afford an out of state college (or even in state atm :/).

I have to agree. College can suck so bad for INTPs because they make you take so many seemingly useless and crappy classes. My big hatred was foreign language, as I deemed it completely retardedly useless for a philosophy major. Let people translate philosophy into English and I'll read that. OSU required 10 credit-hours of foreign language too :/

As far as trusted family members...I don't trust a single person that I know personally. Most of them despise me...they're almost all sensors, and I've never gotten along with sensor types ever.

Harmony with other types
I HATE SJs. They are fucking absurd, and they are only ever going to be the cogs in society's wheels. Remember that- they are too dumb and obtuse to tap into the iNtuition that we have. I believe (but cannot prove) that iNtuitive are more successful, and are also more able to grasp theories like the MBTI. I know this is borderline racists- but in my defense, sensors perpetuate even more tension based on stupid things like nation, religion, skin color and baseball teams.

However.... showing your hate to sensors isn't the way to deal with them. It just makes it worse. You've been on the receiving end of a lot of judgement, but you need to remember that for there to be harmony you need to be free of judging people too. Maybe "judging" people is the wrong word. Just remember that they're not crazy, they're just different.

I was trying to tell one of my ex-gfs that she was INFP, and she absolutely disagreed with people being put into categories. I tried to explain that it was just a loose definition, and there are still individual differences, but she didn't quite get it. It was clashing with her "everyone is a beautiful and unique snowflake" ideal; so I dropped it. I don't admit that I'm wrong, I just stopped bringing it up. My life has had less conflict when I've learned to just drop issues that aren't really important.

Jobs
What jobs have you had? Also- do you have a car? It sounds unlikely, but if you do I would recommend pizza delivery. You can spend a lot of time alone in your car, listening to the radio. My INTPness made my mental-map pretty good.

Having a job is also just good for interaction. You'll have some assholes around, but just being around people can help you feel a little more balanced. We're introverted, but we still need some social interaction. The togetherness that a coworkers have is good.

You don't have to go back to college immediately. Having a job while you collect yourself would be totally fine, and a GREAT first step.

INTPs <3 INFPs & INFJs
You should go to the INFJ and INFP forums. They are:
http://infp.globalchatter.com/messageboard/
http://forum.infjs.com/

There are plenty of girls, it shouldn't take too much work to start a PM correspondence that turns into a daily IM/email friendship. It would be a good step towards having support, having someone to reveal yourself to. And they care; I've been blessed to have INFPs & INFJs in my life.

There are Ns at college: hiding
I haven't been to the midwest, but I have trouble believing that there won't be some other Ns for you to commiserate with. There may not be as many as the coasts have. :/ But you just have to find them! Just like you, they are going to be hiding from the ridiculous SJ/SP culture. Sure, they might be in stupid clubs like the gaming club or the anime club (apologies to any otakus out there :-P) but if that's what it takes to meet people like you then that is what it takes.

Go clubs have NTs
Another idea: is there a Go club nearby? If so, go to it. You'll find lots of NTs. Many of them will probably be older, and they might be able to give you help- or at least some much-needed NT/NT interaction. Also, Go is a fantastic game. While playing, if you are much worse, you can simply request for them to talk about the game with you, as you play it. Talking about the theory behind all the moves is wonderful.

Buddhism!
No one else has touched on religion, so I will. You should consider reading about buddhism. I've been reading this great book, "Seeking the Heart of Wisdom", written by two american buddhists. It's helped me find solidarity, and remove the distractions from my life that are causing me harm.
http://www.amazon.com/Seeking-Heart-Wisdom-Meditation-Shambhala/dp/0877733279

Are these really helping?
In a similar style, I have cut down on how many computer games I play and TV shows I watch. They are a great escape, and enjoyable, but the successes in computer games do not translate to anything in the real world. That's not to say you shouldn't enjoy recreation, but you could probably do something a little more productive, like reading and analyzing whatever presents itself to you. When I flex my Ti, Ne and Si in my free time then my college work gets easier, because I'm already accustomed to focusing. I know you can kick yourself into focus-mode, but not using these skills is a slippery slope. Remember the classic neurobio saying: Use it or lose it!

UUs are asburd, but that's okay
You also might considering looking into Unitarian Universalist churches around. Yes, they're a church, but you don't have to believe in anything except forgiveness. (There are atheists that go to my UU group.) I've found a ton of support from my UU group. And since UUs can handle opposing points of view, you're more likely to find Ns there. A common part of small UU meetings is a check in where you talk about your week. It's not as good as counseling or therapy, but it's still damn good to talk about your problems to people who are supportive. Also, it's free.

disclaimer!
I hope you don't think I'm trying to push you too much, or mold you into another version of me. (As you can guess, these are all the things that have had a positive influence in my life.) I just figured I would give suggestions with a shotgun strategy. Best of luck!

 

[Duty]

Harmony with other types
I HATE SJs. They are fucking absurd, and they are only ever going to be the cogs in society's wheels. Remember that- they are too dumb and obtuse to tap into the iNtuition that we have. I believe (but cannot prove) that iNtuitive are more successful, and are also more able to grasp theories like the MBTI. I know this is borderline racists- but in my defense, sensors perpetuate even more tension based on stupid things like nation, religion, skin color and baseball teams.

Uneducated SJs do these things, but ones that are educated to be forgiving and patient with people aren't as bad. My mom is ISTJ and as much as I dislike her personality, she's educated enough to be not racist, accepting of religions different from her own (she's officially an agnostic due to my influence), and some other things. She's horrible about nationalism though...Americans are the best in her eyes. :/

There's good SJs in the world, but they're terribly dependent on what "the rules" they've been taught are. They don't understand the principle behind why you shouldn't be racist...only that you shouldn't be racist.

I was trying to tell one of my ex-gfs that she was INFP, and she absolutely disagreed with people being put into categories. I tried to explain that it was just a loose definition, and there are still individual differences, but she didn't quite get it. It was clashing with her "everyone is a beautiful and unique snowflake" ideal; so I dropped it. I don't admit that I'm wrong, I just stopped bringing it up. My life has had less conflict when I've learned to just drop issues that aren't really important.

What my problem usually is is when people try to direct my life and tell me this or that is the right way to do things...but then when I explain who I am and that they're wrong about me, they just won't listen. It's when the issue is important and my opinion about my personality and life is just ignored is when I get frustrated. Unfortunately that's exactly what's going on in my life. It's extraordinarily demoralizing when everyone thinks they're helping you by giving you their useless advice, but won't take what you have to say as being anything important.

What jobs have you had? Also- do you have a car? It sounds unlikely, but if you do I would recommend pizza delivery. You can spend a lot of time alone in your car, listening to the radio. My INTPness made my mental-map pretty good.

Having a job is also just good for interaction. You'll have some assholes around, but just being around people can help you feel a little more balanced. We're introverted, but we still need some social interaction. The togetherness that a coworkers have is good.

You don't have to go back to college immediately. Having a job while you collect yourself would be totally fine, and a GREAT first step.

No, I don't have a car or even a license. I ride a bike everywhere. Luckily I'm in Oklahoma so snow and extreme cold is very very rare.

The past 3 years I've worked:
2 years worth of crappy restaurant jobs (cooking pizza for a few months, over a year as a baker, and then even worked at McDs for a couple months...I had to walk out of the McDs job even though I needed the money...I wanted to stab myself repeatedly).
1 year at a supermarket.

I've tried repeatedly to get a job at the library...they haven't called me back nor answered my calls. I've tried to get a job as a bank teller (not thrilled about that, but I tried) with no luck. I'm out of ideas for a decent low end job for an INTP.

This is a LOT of the reason I'm in such a rut. I can't find the motivation to work at the jobs I can get...fast food and supermarkets...for a year or two to get back into college...at which time I'd probably have to still work said job.

INTPs <3 INFPs & INFJs
You should go to the INFJ and INFP forums. They are:
http://infp.globalchatter.com/messageboard/
http://forum.infjs.com/

There are plenty of girls, it shouldn't take too much work to start a PM correspondence that turns into a daily IM/email friendship. It would be a good step towards having support, having someone to reveal yourself to. And they care; I've been blessed to have INFPs & INFJs in my life.

Heh, I've already been all over the INFJ forums. <3 them. I'll head on out to the INFPs, as I have little experience with them (I knew one ISFP in my life...but she was an emotional mess...much much more so then the typically Feeler).

There are Ns at college: hiding
I haven't been to the midwest, but I have trouble believing that there won't be some other Ns for you to commiserate with. There may not be as many as the coasts have. :/ But you just have to find them! Just like you, they are going to be hiding from the ridiculous SJ/SP culture. Sure, they might be in stupid clubs like the gaming club or the anime club (apologies to any otakus out there :-P) but if that's what it takes to meet people like you then that is what it takes.

Ya, there's a very few out here. My neighbors are ENFJ and XNTX. The ENFJ one never has anything good to talk about though, and the NT one is never home. At college I met very few, even though I was in the gaming club (I used to be a very hardcore gamer). Thing is...I'm not in college and OSU is a HORRIBLE school. It's extraordinarily SP dominated...party school. Roughly 1100 out of their 2900 graduates a year are business majors. I really really hate the school, and professors honestly tell the students that show interest to just go somewhere else.

Go clubs have NTs
Another idea: is there a Go club nearby? If so, go to it. You'll find lots of NTs. Many of them will probably be older, and they might be able to give you help- or at least some much-needed NT/NT interaction. Also, Go is a fantastic game. While playing, if you are much worse, you can simply request for them to talk about the game with you, as you play it. Talking about the theory behind all the moves is wonderful.

Nope, no such thing in Stillwater.

Buddhism!
No one else has touched on religion, so I will. You should consider reading about buddhism. I've been reading this great book, "Seeking the Heart of Wisdom", written by two american buddhists. It's helped me find solidarity, and remove the distractions from my life that are causing me harm.
http://www.amazon.com/Seeking-Heart-Wisdom-Meditation-Shambhala/dp/0877733279

I know quite a lot about buddhism and meditation techniques, but thank you.

Are these really helping?
In a similar style, I have cut down on how many computer games I play and TV shows I watch. They are a great escape, and enjoyable, but the successes in computer games do not translate to anything in the real world. That's not to say you shouldn't enjoy recreation, but you could probably do something a little more productive, like reading and analyzing whatever presents itself to you. When I flex my Ti, Ne and Si in my free time then my college work gets easier, because I'm already accustomed to focusing. I know you can kick yourself into focus-mode, but not using these skills is a slippery slope. Remember the classic neurobio saying: Use it or lose it!

So you're saying just start using these skills more and I'll start wanting to use them more? I really really want to sit down and hammer on philosophy, physics...whatever...but I can't find the "in the moment" passion or drive to start the activity. Once I'm there I can focus and my INTPness kicks in hard.

UUs are asburd, but that's okay
You also might considering looking into Unitarian Universalist churches around. Yes, they're a church, but you don't have to believe in anything except forgiveness. (Really. There are atheists that go to my UU group.) I've found a ton of support from my UU group. And since UUs can handle opposing points of view, you're more likely to find Ns there. A common part of small UU meetings is a check in where you talk about your week. It's not as good as counseling or therapy, but it's still damn good to talk about your problems to people who are supportive.

Here's maybe something. There's a UU church in Stillwater, I'll give it a go and check it out.

disclaimer!
I hope you don't think I'm trying to push you too much, or mold you into another version of me. I just figured I give suggestions with a shotgun strategy. Best of luck!

I appreciate any help I can get at this point...but your suggestions have been much more helpful then most. I didn't even know what a Go club was lol.

 

[EditorOne]

You just got a whole bunch of good ideas. The "get a job" one caught my eye. I believe we are genetically hard wired to take some kind of enjoyment from working with small groups of other humans to accomplish something, even delivery of pizza. And I think that particular biological urge doesn't depend on personality type, although the form it takes might change due to personality. Evolution, survival, etc. We no longer need to cooperate to fight off the wild animals or cook the food, so it comes into play in the world of work.

In other words, I think any job working with other people, even if that's a de-emphasized element of the job, is good for you right now, both because of the seemingly innate satisfaction it provides but because it's also going to expose you to a whole new set of feedbacks and interactions and maybe break some of the patterns you seem trapped within.

But it sound like you have no idea how to go about getting a job. Not your fault if you never were exposed to it. You can't just make your availability known and hope for the best. Even for a low-end job like you're talking about getting for temporary gig, you've got to give the person doing the hiring a reason to pick you over someone else. You've got to, in other words, behave in what is an unnatural way for many INTPs, you've got to project yourself as if you were an E and at the very least match up your particular traits or qualifications to the particular job. Don't think too hard about that: Library job: "I have above average intelligence, an orderly mind, and can work without much need for supervision." Pizza delivery: "I have above average intelligence, an orderly mind, know the area even where GPS has problems, and find satisfaction in a job that changes the scenery as often as this one.'" Whatever.

In short, you've got to sell yourself as if you were a product. You've got to present yourself as the solution to someone's problem. You've got to -- horror, horror, horror -- make yourself stand out from all the other people who , these days, want even those bottom-rung interim jobs. Like dancing, I'd rather stick a pencil in my eye, but I've forced myself to do things that way and it almost always works out. And I come away thinking I must now know how actors feel, speaking a part that's not really them.

Sometimes you've got to Muggle your way through things; Muggles run the world and often stand between us and employment, but you can't expect them to know how clever they'd be to hire you until you break it down into their language and deal with their concerns.

Like a lot of others, I hope all this helps. And I again find myself saying I don't know how I survived without this forum.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Heh, I've already been all over the INFJ forums. <3 them. I'll head on out to the INFPs, as I have little experience with them (I knew one ISFP in my life...but she was an emotional mess...much much more so then the typically Feeler).

Yeah, INFPs are very different animals from ISFPs. Worth talking to.

So you're saying just start using these skills more and I'll start wanting to use them more? I really really want to sit down and hammer on philosophy, physics...whatever...but I can't find the "in the moment" passion or drive to start the activity. Once I'm there I can focus and my INTPness kicks in hard.

Exactly! I'm majoring in biochemistry, and at first I dreaded reading research papers. I had to jump through the hoops to get my computer connected to my university VPN, and then find the journal, etc. My classes forced me to start reading a few papers, and the papers were also slow to read, I didn't understand them a lot, etc.
But after reading a dozen papers I learned how to skim them. It's much more easy to find the motivation to go read biochem papers now, and I almost enjoy it.

Are you familiar with the idea of "activation energy"? It's the energy you have to put into a chemical reaction before it'll start- but once is goes, it will complete the reaction. For INTPs, every time you force yourself to do something you will make the activation energy for doing it next time lower.

EditorOne, I think you're right. That's something I have needed to hear too.

 

[Duty]

You just got a whole bunch of good ideas. The "get a job" one caught my eye. I believe we are genetically hard wired to take some kind of enjoyment from working with small groups of other humans to accomplish something, even delivery of pizza. And I think that particular biological urge doesn't depend on personality type, although the form it takes might change due to personality. Evolution, survival, etc. We no longer need to cooperate to fight off the wild animals or cook the food, so it comes into play in the world of work.

In other words, I think any job working with other people, even if that's a de-emphasized element of the job, is good for you right now, both because of the seemingly innate satisfaction it provides but because it's also going to expose you to a whole new set of feedbacks and interactions and maybe break some of the patterns you seem trapped within.

But it sound like you have no idea how to go about getting a job. Not your fault if you never were exposed to it. You can't just make your availability known and hope for the best. Even for a low-end job like you're talking about getting for temporary gig, you've got to give the person doing the hiring a reason to pick you over someone else. You've got to, in other words, behave in what is an unnatural way for many INTPs, you've got to project yourself as if you were an E and at the very least match up your particular traits or qualifications to the particular job. Don't think too hard about that: Library job: "I have above average intelligence, an orderly mind, and can work without much need for supervision." Pizza delivery: "I have above average intelligence, an orderly mind, know the area even where GPS has problems, and find satisfaction in a job that changes the scenery as often as this one.'" Whatever.

In short, you've got to sell yourself as if you were a product. You've got to present yourself as the solution to someone's problem. You've got to -- horror, horror, horror -- make yourself stand out from all the other people who , these days, want even those bottom-rung interim jobs. Like dancing, I'd rather stick a pencil in my eye, but I've forced myself to do things that way and it almost always works out. And I come away thinking I must now know how actors feel, speaking a part that's not really them.

Sometimes you've got to Muggle your way through things; Muggles run the world and often stand between us and employment, but you can't expect them to know how clever they'd be to hire you until you break it down into their language and deal with their concerns.

Like a lot of others, I hope all this helps. And I again find myself saying I don't know how I survived without this forum.

Ugh, a lot of my personal angst is from the prospect of having to get a job to get anywhere. It's so hard, almost impossible it seems, for me to enjoy the SJ/SP dominated culture. It's wholly unsatisfying working in a team to produce something so inane as hamburgers or getting customers through a shopping line...only to be around coworkers that want to talk about sensor stuff...booze, their new car, X and Y did so and so...and no one wants to be in the slightest bit interesting.

I'm already getting worked up about it. I have less in common with the dominate culture then even most INTPs I think. :/

What I need is a job I won't mind so much doing. The library would have been perfect but they keep refusing to hire me. Pizza delivery would have been not so bad either...but I don't have a car of course. Does anyone have any other suggestions (job wise) for me to look into? I wish I could go and do pizza delivery but it's just impossible.

Yeah, INFPs are very different animals from ISFPs. Worth talking to.



Exactly! I'm majoring in biochemistry, and at first I dreaded reading research papers. I had to jump through the hoops to get my computer connected to my university VPN, and then find the journal, etc. My classes forced me to start reading a few papers, and the papers were also slow to read, I didn't understand them a lot, etc.
But after reading a dozen papers I learned how to skim them. It's much more easy to find the motivation to go read biochem papers now, and I almost enjoy it.

Are you familiar with the idea of "activation energy"? It's the energy you have to put into a chemical reaction before it'll start- but once is goes, it will complete the reaction. For INTPs, every time you force yourself to do something you will make the activation energy for doing it next time lower.

EditorOne, I think you're right. That's something I have needed to hear too.

I'll give it a try. I'll start by just refreshing myself on symbolic logic.

It would really help if I had others with a lot of education and interest in philosophy to converse with. Only suggestion that we have in town is the UU church, but idk if anyone will be huge into philosophy there.

 

[Agent Intellect]

get a job being a pepsi or beer vendor/merchandiser. as far as i know, thats all pretty much done on your own, just stocking shelves of different stores with pop or booze. i put in an application to do that a while back, but never got a call back for it... just a suggestion.

and i know exactly what you mean about working in an SJ society. i work in a warehouse right now, have an ESTJ boss and two ESFJ co-workers. the extroverted thing is annoying, because they have to add their two cents about everything, and because 90% of what they say is anywhere between pointless and incredibly moronic, they obviously don't think before they speak. and because they're SJ, they uphold the pointless rules as if they were decreed by God himself, even if there are much better or efficient ways of doing things (i could go on all day about that). and the mindless small talk, dear jesus...

i keep trying to tell myself that its just that their minds work differently then my own, but its so mind numbing that it takes every ounce of my will power not to just snap and go on a murderous rampage.

i should probably utilize shout club more often....

 

[kimboli]

WHOA WHOA WHOA!!

I'm so sick of the woe is me crap!

everybody can give up and die for all I care!

Good God if we are so smart then why do we let all the society poster childs and others bother us so much and put us down! Don't we put ourselves down enough!

get out of the rut and get some balls! for cripe sakes!

I've been to hell and back,been depressed fo over 20 years, had social anxiety and locked myself in my house 10 years of OCD and isolation, and of course others not understanding!

But who cares! move on get help whatever!
You can make your life happy if you want to! I'm ready to move on and I will I will grow and I will succeed to my own will and reach my own goals for me not them
To hell with what they think! let them judge and make themselves look like idiots! for were the one's that know the truth and happy with ourselves!

 

[Duty]

WHOA WHOA WHOA!!

I'm so sick of the woe is me crap!

everybody can give up and die for all I care!

Good God if we are so smart then why do we let all the society poster childs and others bother us so much and put us down! Don't we put ourselves down enough!

get out of the rut and get some balls! for cripe sakes!

I've been to hell and back,been depressed fo over 20 years, had social anxiety and locked myself in my house 10 years of OCD and isolation, and of course others not understanding!

But who cares! move on get help whatever!
You can make your life happy if you want to! I'm ready to move on and I will I will grow and I will succeed to my own will and reach my own goals for me not them

As much as a hate cliches, this one rings true:
It is easier to say then to do.

No, I barely made it 2 months in a McDonald's before I almost lost it. I turned so horribly cynical I almost just got fired from it. I can't imagine 1-2 years living in a place like that. It would make things 10,000 times easier to have a job I can at least tolerate...liking it would just be icing.

To hell with what they think! let them judge and make themselves look like idiots! for were the one's that know the truth and happy with ourselves!

The problem isn't that, it's that the people around them view them as right and wise (because 70% of people are sensors and agree on these arbitrary rules), and we get outcast for thinking more efficiently. :/

 

[grey matters]

I, for one, say that you should not recommend suicide unless you've gone through with it, or heard recommendations from those who have.

Sorry I got into this discussion so late. J, thank you for saying that. I couldn't have said it any better. GarmGarf your suggestion of suicide is irresponsible. Someone might read that and get even more depressed because they will think they now have proof that they are worthless and that no one cares about them and then they will actually kill themselves. Suicide is a rather permanent thing, depression does not have to be. The things that are bothering you are changeable, suicide is not. Life is worth living and problems can be temporary.

CivilianJones, I love your response. It was very detailed and You showed a lot of concern for Duty.

I also recomend you take Editorone's advice. Perhaps you could find and go to a resume and interview class (I think they are actually called workshops). A lot of colleges have them. You might have done something on your resume that turned the people at the library off. If you learn to interview well, you can have a much better chance of getting the job you want.

Waterstiller, (who hasn't posted on this thread) says she has a "radar" for INTP's you could find her and ask her for advice. And, if she gives you anything useful, I would also be interested. There are places where NT types hang out that are not gaming related, think about it and go there.

As for a job,have you tried a bookstore?

Oh, by the way, welcome to the forum.