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Moved: Began school at 8

Black Rose

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My mother lived with my grandmother until she got Alzheimer's. I was taught to read by her and so was my sister and brother. They were the on people I knew around my age until I began public school at 8 years old. I wonder how it is for people who were in preschool, Kindergarten and 1-2 grade to be exposed that early to others. It was also very silent where I lived out in the desert goat farm where we lived. I guess I was only aware of this place with my Ni. Supposedly type is innate in children from the beginning as Architect said so cognitively being isolated would affect you differently as the evolution of the species prepared us for environments where some types have the advantage and extended families the tribe. It isn't so natural for isolation to occur. I think this affected my Fe as becoming Fi simulated with Ni. This is the balance I had as I became more involved with the world as a whole. Or it could be I am INTJ simulating Ti as Auburn say's I am low on Fe but make distinctions very precisely. Either Te or Fe was suppressed making my tertiary connect with my dominant.

I hope Architect or Auburn could reply to this thread as I might be using what Jung called the transcendental function.

Comments are welcome.
 

paradoxparadigm7

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Re: Bagan school at 8

I don't necessarily think being isolated has a bearing on Fe. You did after all have family, formed attachments and belonging to your tribe. It's not the quantity of people around that would affect type as I also believe type to be innate and not changeable but the way it's expressed will be unique to your environmental experiences.
 

Black Rose

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Re: Bagan school at 8

I don't necessarily think being isolated has a bearing on Fe. You did after all have family, formed attachments and belonging to your tribe. It's not the quantity of people around that would affect type as I also believe type to be innate and not changeable but the way it's expressed will be unique to your environmental experiences.

The physiological cues is what Auburn basis my type on and he doesn't know me personally so INxJ is possible because he says I suppress Fe. That's why I said I could be simulating Ti as Fi is about being drawn to your inner presence, something I may have done on the farm as the atmosphere made me go inward. Not that my type changed but development as you said.
 

paradoxparadigm7

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Re: Bagan school at 8

Not knowing your type can be frustrating and a puzzle but for whatever it's worth your recent empathy especially with regards to Blob and THD, leads me to conjecture you're indeed NiFe (you're fairly certain Ni is your lead so you can only be INFJ or INTJ and not INFP).
 

DelusiveNinja

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Re: Bagan school at 8

Hmm...taking into account the members that you have requested comments from and the direction that this thread is headed, I can see the thread being relocated.

The physiological cues is what Auburn basis my type on and he doesn't know me personally so INxJ is possible because he says I suppress Fe. That's why I said I could be simulating Ti as Fi is about being drawn to your inner presence, something I may have done on the farm as the atmosphere made me go inward. Not that my type changed but development as you said.

Do you know which physiological cues were the basis for his conclusion?

If you were to be suppressing Fe, then wouldn't that suggest that Ti was an active function within your psyche, limiting the release of Fe energy? Te/Fi users don't suppress Fe because they don't make conscious use of it.

Not too long ago you gave me a link that said:
The truth of an Fi user is personal and they know this. The essence of it is individualistic. But Ti users believe that the internal truths they arrive to are objective, and thus separate from just them, and so they seek to have that implemented ethically/socially via Fe. Ti users introspect to discover what they consider objective truths, which they try to make the world adhere to. Fi users introspect to discover the truth of the needs and desires of a 'human', but take logistical action toward the reverence of that reality.

Wouldn't you say that the truths that you arrive to are implemented and/or translated via Fe rather than through Te?
 

Black Rose

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Re: Bagan school at 8

Do you know which physiological cues were the basis for his conclusion?




If you were to be suppressing Fe, then wouldn't that suggest that Ti was an active function within your psyche, limiting the release of Fe energy? Te/Fi users don't suppress Fe because they don't make conscious use of it.

Not too long ago you gave me a link that said:

Wouldn't you say that the truths that you arrive to are implemented and/or translated via Fe rather than through Te?
This video I made in 2011 but they don't match any of the videos above precisely. I am male so its speculative that I think I am being objective. Ni-Ti or Ni-Te. Articulation is very Ti but the information presented could come from Ni not Ne? I might use Fe only around people when I feel connected in resonance or is that Fi? Most of the time I try to be logical.

http://youtu.be/Vdus6jduwxc
 

DelusiveNinja

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Began school at 8

This video I made in 2011 but they don't match any of the videos above precisely. I am male so its speculative that I think I am being objective. Ni-Ti or Ni-Te. Articulation is very Ti but the information presented could come from Ni not Ne? I might use Fe only around people when I feel connected in resonance or is that Fi? Most of the time I try to be logical.

No. While obvious Fi users do seem to be rather cliquish (my observation), Fe users can be the exact same way, especially high Fe users. To me, it makes sense because Fe transcribes information that influences the social economy around the user, allowing groups to form, respect to be given, and ideals to be shared.

Just looking at the video, it seems that Ti is definitely present because of your meticulous hand gestures and occasional pauses. However, Fe is very difficult to spot, probably because I'm no visual typing guru. Your dynamics navigator is Fe since you use Ti. Ni is visible as well. Those eyes speak Ni lead to me clearly. You go seconds without blinking at all, so making a case for Ne would be nearly impossible within the context of the CT system.
 

Auburn

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Hey again Animekitty :)

I'm.. certainly not qualified to make any serious psychiatric-type of analysis pertaining to your upbringing - as I have only recently begun to expand my scope into child psychology, complexes and Jungian archetypes (after spending a considerable amount of time getting to the bottom of cognitive functions!).

You're certainly one of the most challenging psychologies I've tried to grasp, (visually and otherwise) and I do suspect it's due to peculiarities that go beyond cognitive type -- as cognitive type is but one (albeit a key) aspect of our psyche's operation.

Visually I did/do see heavy Ni/Se, but as with before it's difficult to see either Ti/Fe or Fi/Te. Your articulation seemed clamped by something internal. But in another thread you recently mentioned having done a lot of personal development - which I'm glad to hear. I wonder if it would be different now if you made a new video of yourself with this new mindset?

I feel I might be able to offer more clarity that way..
 

Black Rose

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I just downloaded Microsoft Essentials for my new computer and when I plugged in my web cam it did not work. I will buy a new one and make a new video soon. :)
 

Auburn

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I see(!)

Okay, firstly I'd say that Ni-lead is still quite solid. Despite a strong articulation-dampening, your mind is able to tumble forward in monologue in that Pi-heavy sort of way. Especially in the second video when you're more casual. Your mind is perception-surfing in quite a streamlined fashion, even if your articulation isn't as smooth.

And as before, your statements aren't rigid in principle, but more of a continual tangential stream of interrelated experiences. Which is characteristic of P-leads or at least P-heavy types.

In your case, Ti cannot be gauged or intuited based on momentum-halting. Especially because Ti momentum halts & neutralizes emotion at the same time. But in your case, there is little emotionality in your voice (no Fe push there to neutralize) and your pauses don't seem to be wholly neutral either.

If you look at the TiNe cues video you posted, even polar Fe comes out warmer than you seem to come forth. If Fe was secondary, I don't think even severe clamping could diminish it this much. I don't think you have Fe.

What is the most telling, though, is your intonation. When I listen to your video while closing my eyes, I clearly recognize that pattern of articulation as one of Te. There are various tones to Te that are typical, one of which is a nasal, monotone and more slow than other Te tones.

Even heavily Ti-infused Fe articulation sounds different - usually more shy and receding. Ti tends to make the warm articulation of Fe slower and softer -- while Fe still has an emotionally impacting aura. One good example of this is: Myself (TiNe) a few years ago. Notice how there's a warmth in the voice, but the voice recedes quickly (with an emotional digression) after every little hop outward. The softness is heard quite clearly at 2:40-2:50. That's Ti momentum-halting and neutralizing Fe warmth.

Your articulation is more akin to this video: (Fi+Ne) Ermine. I use her as an example because she also has clamped Te articulation. The clamping can be heard at 0:24, 0:30, 0:32, 0:33, 0:35, etc. Notice how her voice is more similar to yours than mines is -- following the same sort of monotone, quick-initiation (no swell/fade in and out) of each statement, nasal.

But what's more telling still than that, is the mouth. Fi/Te users have this thing with their mouths where their snarling happens randomly during and at the end of words. While their articulating, their mouth is constantly being micro-pulled upward toward their nose from the sides of the lips to make a 'disturbed' expression.

In Ermine's video its happening constantly but a good clear shot is between 1:09-1:12. In there you see that she makes these expressions, especially when she says "in my head". I don't wanna take a screenshot, for privacy reasons but if you pause right when she says "head" you'll see the expression.

While your expressions aren't as pronounced as hers, your mouth does do constant micro-pulls upward of this sort -- which I can see clearly now. Your lips move not via Fe prompting, but accidentally into a variety of shapes as is characteristic of Fi.

I'm also not entirely sure you really fall on the autistic spectrum. Or rather, I should say that according to CT theory, Fi users often fall into the autistic spectrum especially if they have a lack of development of Fi -- causing lack of touch with one's own emotions and no gateway whatsoever (unlike Fe) to gauge the causality of the emotional dynamics around them. I am not an expert on aspergers/autism but I do know that underdeveloped-Fi types do very often get diagnosed this way. The same way strong Ne/Se-leads get diagnosed ADHD, whilst it may instead be a developmental result of overusing a psychic process.

So in short, you're an NiTe with underdeveloped Te and Fi. The fact that your Te is also absent in a lot of ways, makes perfect sense as to why Fi is also not as developed -- as functions develop simultaneously via oscillation.

This also precisely explains why your eyes seem soooo very intensely Ni and Se-locked-on at the same time. You have a very strong Ni-Se primary oscillation and a very weak Te-Fi secondary oscillation. I think the strength of one oscillation is inversely proportional to the other.

I'll be back to post more in a bit (as I have responsibilities to tend to). But I may be able to give some suggestions as to how to balance your functions more.
 

Auburn

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*has time now* Ok. :) So one thing people don't often realize is that cognitive functions can be utilized through the slightest/subtlest activities, so long as it pulls upon the utilization of the process. For example:

Gaming

The reason gaming can be such an effective developmental tool is because it essentially simulates scenarios that may be less common in real life -- but your brain must process and deduce the scenario in the same way that it would do so if it was happening in real life. The benefit, though, is that these scenarios can be simulated hundreds of times more often than IRL and at whatever time you want. Exercising the imagination is also very important and healthy for the psyche from my experience.

Animekitty, have you ever tried playing video games? Something fast-pace in which many decisions/calls needs to be made in succession would be ideal. Fighting games as well as FPS (fist-person-shooters) come to mind. Strategy games, such as Age of Empires may also interest you, they're more methodical. [If budget is rough, there are some free PC games that I can think of too]

The easier it becomes for your mind to make quick deductions in gaming, the more it will be able to do so in all aspects of real life. Developing your Te first is, for your type, the best way to go - and that will also develop your Fi.

But more importantly, your mind has to be engaged. (Which is why gaming is a good option) Developing functions isn't like working-out, where you can just grind your teeth through it. In reality, your functions themselves should push you into the interests that develop them (ordinarily) and they develop due to the thirst for reaching mastery in their domain.
 

Black Rose

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My IQ would be 115 if my dexterity was not so disabling. Its FSIQ 108, PS 92. I type with both my index fingers. I suck at Halo or any game that requires dexterity. I was good at the Wii because you must use your whole arm with the motion. This why I loved Mushroom Men, Spiderman Web of shadows and Splinter Cell Double Agent. The only game I was fast at was like Tetris but blobby colored jello on the Gameboy SP, puyo pop. I like the board game Risk but not chess as I have week endgame. For the PC I cant see small details visually so real time strategy games are almost impossible because I cannot plan that fast although pikmin for game cube was fun. Medieval II Total War was confusing because the other kingdoms moves were never shown, I last only 30 seasons. Dues Ex Human Revolution has limited options not as good as the game I'll talk about next.

I was really good at Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2, My brother used save points to go through each scenario for maximum Weapons and items preparations. I always play the light side and did not need to use weapons or items as much as he did nor save points as much as he did. He could never get his character all the way to the dark side. My character was maximum light side of the force. I could heal myself without the need for complex combos or item customization.

http://youtu.be/LwU8YmSJYbA

This should be enough information for how I have used Fi/Te in the past. I don't play games any more because non fit right but my brother ISTP(?) selects really fun games. He likes sonic the hedgehog for game cube and racing games.

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=8728

Finally why is Cognitive types different from MBTI, the descriptions yes but INTJ still means NiTe as primary functions?
 

Auburn

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I cant see small details visually so real time strategy games are almost impossible because I cannot plan that fast
Oh, curious. Do you mean your eyes themselves can't see small detail (like, as a visual impariment; farsightedness)? ...or do you mean that your eyes cannot track fast-moving objects? Or is it simply difficult to plan a counter-strategy fast enough?

I suppose my suggestion may not work if it's a visual impairment. But if it is moreso about not being able to plan fast enough, that's precisely where exercising that muscle would strengthen judgment. Here's an example of the sort of game I'm referring to:


SSBM for Gamecube ended up becoming a very competitive, technical, and fast-pace game. It does require dexterity, keen tracking, fast judgment and anticipation/prediction. One of my favorite games.

It seems as though you've been more comfortable in more methodical, slow-pace games (like RPGs) -- understandably so. D'you thing you'd wanna try out more technical/fast-pace games?

Finally why is Cognitive types different from MBTI, the descriptions yes but INTJ still means NiTe as primary functions?
If their descriptions are what define the two terms, then they're different terms. They cannot be equated simply from sharing the most basic similarities. That would be akin to saying dogs are the same species as cats, because:

  1. they both have four legs
  2. they're both mammals
  3. they're both human pets
What makes them different is the nitty-griddy details. We cannot generalize NiTe to be the same as INTJ (or at least not accurately) since even what it means to have a primary function and secondary function is different in the two systems.

In CT for NiTe there is instead a primary oscillation (Ni/Se) and a secondary oscillation (Te/Fi). CT doesn't rank things in term of 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th function --- and in a lot of cases what the MBTI calls the inferior function (4th) could be seen, in CT, to be the secondary function, or secondmost prominent, since often times a person's primary oscillation is the most prominent while the secondary oscillation pairing is weakly developed.

There are also a lot of key differences in the specific functions themselves. For example, both in Jung's theory and MBTI the introverted perception processes were postulated to be forms of perceiving the environment. In CT, the Pi processes are not perceptive processes in the literal sense -- as in, they don't actually take in the environment (they in fact reject information) -- but are instead processes that recollect/perceive precedent.

This fundamentally changes, for example, the definition of Si. Which in MBTI is said to be a visceral sensational awareness of one's own body. Or in other iterations is said to be a way of looking at the world that is literal but related to internal memory. The reality is that Ne is the one that looks at the sensory world (even being an abstract/"intuitive" function), while Si looks at memory only and never the sensory/literal world.

I could go on forever about the differences ^^ ...but lets just say they're profound. :)
 

Black Rose

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Oh, curious. Do you mean your eyes themselves can't see small detail (like, as a visual impariment; farsightedness)? ...or do you mean that your eyes cannot track fast-moving objects? Or is it simply difficult to plan a counter-strategy fast enough?

I mean I cannot see all the details at once, I don't know where things are. Distant objects are fuzzy far away, that's why I wear glasses. I can keep track of fast objects but no more than 3 at a time. Also My working memory is 103, I have a limited number of variables I can keep track of even though I am a non linear thinker.

I suppose my suggestion may not work if it's a visual impairment. But if it is moreso about not being able to plan fast enough, that's precisely where exercising that muscle would strengthen judgment. Here's an example of the sort of game I'm referring to:


SSBM for Gamecube ended up becoming a very competitive, technical, and fast-pace game. It does require dexterity, keen tracking, fast judgment and anticipation/prediction. One of my favorite games.
This is another game I was better at than my brother. I always beat him with Kirby

It seems as though you've been more comfortable in more methodical, slow-pace games (like RPGs) -- understandably so. D'you thing you'd wanna try out more technical/fast-pace games?
Fast games that don't require dexterity, sure but they are still to limiting for the right amount of complexity I can handle.

If their descriptions are what define the two terms, then they're different terms. They cannot be equated simply from sharing the most basic similarities. That would be akin to saying dogs are the same species as cats, because:



  1. they both have four legs
  2. they're both mammals
  3. they're both human pets
What makes them different is the nitty-griddy details. We cannot generalize NiTe to be the same as INTJ (or at least not accurately) since even what it means to have a primary function and secondary function is different in the two systems.

In CT for NiTe there is instead a primary oscillation (Ni/Se) and a secondary oscillation (Te/Fi). CT doesn't rank things in term of 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th function --- and in a lot of cases what the MBTI calls the inferior function (4th) could be seen, in CT, to be the secondary function, or secondmost prominent, since often times a person's primary oscillation is the most prominent while the secondary oscillation pairing is weakly developed.

There are also a lot of key differences in the specific functions themselves. For example, both in Jung's theory and MBTI the introverted perception processes were postulated to be forms of perceiving the environment. In CT, the Pi processes are not perceptive processes in the literal sense -- as in, they don't actually take in the environment (they in fact reject information) -- but are instead processes that recollect/perceive precedent.

This fundamentally changes, for example, the definition of Si. Which in MBTI is said to be a visceral sensational awareness of one's own body. Or in other iterations is said to be a way of looking at the world that is literal but related to internal memory. The reality is that Ne is the one that looks at the sensory world (even being an abstract/"intuitive" function), while Si looks at memory only and never the sensory/literal world.

I could go on forever about the differences ^^ ...but lets just say they're profound. :)
For your Cognitive type Ne is for panorama pattern matching and getting it into Si for Ti to rearrange memory's for consistency and use Fe see who is affected by them.

I think my Te systematizes my values as internal relationships that Ni sees as incomplete in the present moment with Se to take action to complete them.

My Fi values are Truth, Justice, Beauty, Cool things, Kindness.
Your Si is of the world as a nostalgic TOE.

Because they work in pairs and J/P they may be combined to work different depending on leads. I don't have Ti but I hope I am clear in my speculations.:)

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=8849
 

QuickTwist

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It appears when you are excited you are much more flowy and easy going. I am thinking of the last video. When you are comfortable you are good at putting emphasis on certain things which you are sure about. This is good. It means you have worked at this. It seems like it takes you a while to get on a roll so to speak but when you do it is much easier to understand and follow what you are talking about. You seem to know yourself pretty well so I will not take that away from you. I do see a lot of Ne when you are speaking -especially early on in the third video. It seems like you are thinking about much more than you can actually say. This would be obviously classified as being introverted. Thats my opinion -take it or leave it.
 

Black Rose

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Ne sees patterns in the environment.
Ni sees patterns in ones own psyche.

Most likely I use Ni Not Ne.
Thanks anyway QuikTwist I deal frequently with uncertainty.
 

QuickTwist

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Then Ni it is. I just got a sense that there was a whole lot more going on than what was actually said. ::Cheers::
 

Black Rose

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Then Ni it is. I just got a sense that there was a whole lot more going on than what was actually said. ::Cheers::

Actually I was not thinking in the normal sense of the turn. I go blank in my mind until the information I need pops out. This is the unconscious. Ne does the same but about divergent ideas rather than convergent ideas as Ni does. The environment gives them (Ne users) a boost for the popping to happen faster not going blank for long periods.
 
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