"Missing" a fundamental piece of natural aggression

[GYX_Kid]

This is going to be a self-aware and honest post for me here, of which I am not going to be ashamed and might later regret putting on the internet. The expression of this area of discussion will be ridden with self-centeredness and immaturity, which needs to be worked through for self advancement. I will also utilize capitalization and punctuation, for all you English-speaking beautiful people. Hopefully all the sentences will be expressed in an understandable way.

*ahem*



It seems that by principle, nothing can touch me, I can't touch anything, and then I attack myself with analysis. I remember back in second grade dodgeball, my friend noted that I "throw like a girl but dodge like [famous sports player whose name was forgotten]". Aside from my physical lack of arm muscle back then, there was also some just...lack of aggressive spirit, and lack of a complete connection to A) the pathetic feeling of not wanting to lose that used to be there and B) "I'll do it for the game's sake, but there's nothing else there".
That by itself isn't necessarily a problem. Overly competitive people tend to just piss me off. I clearly am more narcissistic than most people, but I guess the matter is really just the type of manifestation of narcissism.

Because there have been events later in life, such as physically weak punkass crazy bastards asking for it, and hot females asking for it, and well...I suppose I really only regret not milking those situations because I lack the executive functioning enough to create more optimal situations of my own to milk ...of which I would also usually take for granted in the same way, though. I think.

But yeah- so in the post-event process of looking back on any situation in general, I automatically and even compulsively (j)udge the past and myself within the context of the past (Will probably make a later thread about Perceiving the environment and Judging the self, which is a separate topic).

I have decided to make fools of people trying to give me shit or achieved some defeats here and there, but it's more of an "amusing" feeling than a real primal satisfaction. Plus, I'd probably hate the assholes a lot more if I had gone further with battling since their attitude just worsens, though it's a tradeoff for potential primal satisfaction which I'm never 100% aware of/able to identify within.

Even with relationships, it's the getting the girl that "satisfies" the mission that I was aware of....now I can put penis in vagina, right? It's like I wasn't even designed to feel like I "needed" to do it. It seems so obvious, but it really is a physical and mental complete-connection-to-instinct-and-then-to-reality ..."issue" of perfectionism and other things. I've agonized and questioned about whether I was a coward and a pussy and things like that, but more just been disgusted with the outcomes of the real world which were completely not anticipated in a practical manner.

Anyone else have a disgustingly narcissistic hero-ideal-complex? I will unashamedly admit that I would love to brutalize a bad guy/egotistical bad guy before fucking a girl. This ideal is now psychologically rooted somewhere, and to take a stab at an action otherwise would require taking a stab at [myself = my ideal = my unrealistic self-concept]. Perhaps this is because I can "relate" to the hatred/anger enough to actually feel more of a natural drive to execute, and that would be a stepping-stone towards "feeling" a natural habit towards "cold" execution of things that don't feel needed in the present moment, but would later satisfy the judgement-of-past compulsion.

Maybe a lot of you can relate to malnourishing the inevitable and natural shit-scented male ego with procrastination, hesitation and slow identification of animal desires. Actually I do feel impulses other than internally-targeted ones, but it takes quite a long time to stir those.



So, kind of in summation:

Can lack of a direct and quick "connection" to primal substance initially be substituted by "cold execution", which is done by taking a "stop fucking procrastinating and DO it" experimental approach....and then the "feeling of being alive" will eventually be learned with practice? I don't know what I really want, I guess. I don't think it's a good idea to go be like a less-extreme Ichi the killer, who's a movie character who thinks he was bullied and that he failed to rescue a girl from being raped, and then developed all sorts of schizoid, borderline and psychosexual complexes.

P.P.Summation:

Note to self to develop a more stable and realistic midway-point between the two conflicting extreme ideals of "egotism is weak and bad" and "milk it, it's your nature". Somehow they can marry each other.

 

[^_\\]

Hi. I'm confused by a lot of what you are saying. This will mostly be me trying to figure it out.

What makes you think this aggression is fundamental? Do you mean you have literally 0 aggression? or some specific type of aggresion, like "killer instinct"?

"lack of a direct and quick "connection" to primal substance"

I'm not sure what you mean by this. What is this primal substance? Do you just mean you don't get a thrill from winning, If so, why is this a bad thing? is it more like you want to win but you can't summon up the aggression to really throw the ball/do whatever?

"I have decided to make fools of people trying to give me shit or achieved some defeats here and there, but it's more of an "amusing" feeling than a real primal satisfaction. Plus, I'd probably hate the assholes a lot more if I had gone further with battling since their attitude just worsens, though it's a tradeoff for potential primal satisfaction which I'm never 100% aware of/able to identify within."

Are you not happy with amusing yourself? Do you see the primal satisfaction as a greater level of utility or something?

I am also confused by your use of connection to aggression. I generally think of aggression as a state of mind or an action. Do you mean your aggression is buried somewhere in yourself?


"Maybe a lot of you can relate to malnourishing the inevitable and natural shit-scented male ego with procrastination, hesitation and slow identification of animal desires. Actually I do feel impulses other than internally-targeted ones, but it takes quite a long time to stir those."

Maybe you can nourish your male ego with boxing or some competitive martial art.

"Because there have been events later in life, such as physically weak punkass crazy bastards asking for it, and hot females asking for it, and well...I suppose I really only regret not milking those situations because I lack the executive functioning enough to create more optimal situations of my own to milk ...of which I would also usually take for granted in the same way, though. I think."

You only regret not milking those situations because you don't have more situations to milk? So you regret not kicking the guys ass because you don't get to kick more asses/

again maybe you could get involved in amateur mma or something.

Can lack of a direct and quick "connection" to primal substance initially be substituted by
"cold execution", which is done by taking a "stop fucking procrastinating and DO it" experimental approach....and then the "feeling of being alive" will eventually be learned with practice? I don't know what I really want, I guess. I don't think it's a good idea to go be like a less-extreme Ichi the killer, who's a movie character who thinks he was bullied and that he failed to rescue a girl from being raped, and then developed all sorts of schizoid, borderline and psychosexual complexes."

Ok I think I'm starting to understand. Is this connection to primal substance "thrill of victory"/desire just part of what made you feel alive previously?

Sorry if I'm way off base. I'm mostly just putting guesswork out there.

 

[GYX_Kid]

Yeah you have the right idea.

It's a matter of realizing that later on there will be an increasing mental importance placed on the possible absence of a "trophy"

and trying in the present to factor in how important that value is, relative to other current values that I already "feel" and am aware of- such as "this could escalate badly, I don't have complete control over this outcome" or "I might regret doing it...it's safer to regret not doing it, but I don't feel that regret yet so I'll just be lazy and ignore it"

Again all decisive actions are done by controlled conscious thought, with little to no influence from cojones. (The "connection" I guess) That means that there has to be more conscious willingness to take risks, if those aren't gonna help in pushing towards that decision "of substance". It's like how it's easier to open up in certain ways if you're drunk, but can't get alcohol...or if you're playing a game and just because of your nature, don't really understand the value of getting the ball but then later regret losing.

I enjoy myself when I'm extremely sleep deprived, because I have cool looking eyebags, and because my overanalytical compulsions aren't there as much to cause retardation.

 

[Bird]

This is going to be a self-aware and honest post for me here, of which I am not going to be ashamed and might later regret putting on the internet. The expression of this area of discussion will be ridden with self-centeredness and immaturity, which needs to be worked through for self advancement. I will also utilize capitalization and punctuation, for all you English-speaking beautiful people. Hopefully all the sentences will be expressed in an understandable way.

*ahem*



It seems that by principle, nothing can touch me, I can't touch anything, and then I attack myself with analysis. I remember back in second grade dodgeball, my friend noted that I "throw like a girl but dodge like [famous sports player whose name was forgotten]". Aside from my physical lack of arm muscle back then, there was also some just...lack of aggressive spirit, and lack of a complete connection to A) the pathetic feeling of not wanting to lose that used to be there and B) "I'll do it for the game's sake, but there's nothing else there".
That by itself isn't necessarily a problem. Overly competitive people tend to just piss me off. I clearly am more narcissistic than most people, but I guess the matter is really just the type of manifestation of narcissism.

Because there have been events later in life, such as physically weak punkass crazy bastards asking for it, and hot females asking for it, and well...I suppose I really only regret not milking those situations because I lack the executive functioning enough to create more optimal situations of my own to milk ...of which I would also usually take for granted in the same way, though. I think.

But yeah- so in the post-event process of looking back on any situation in general, I automatically and even compulsively (j)udge the past and myself within the context of the past (Will probably make a later thread about Perceiving the environment and Judging the self, which is a separate topic).

I have decided to make fools of people trying to give me shit or achieved some defeats here and there, but it's more of an "amusing" feeling than a real primal satisfaction. Plus, I'd probably hate the assholes a lot more if I had gone further with battling since their attitude just worsens, though it's a tradeoff for potential primal satisfaction which I'm never 100% aware of/able to identify within.

Even with relationships, it's the getting the girl that "satisfies" the mission that I was aware of....now I can put penis in vagina, right? It's like I wasn't even designed to feel like I "needed" to do it. It seems so obvious, but it really is a physical and mental complete-connection-to-instinct-and-then-to-reality ..."issue" of perfectionism and other things. I've agonized and questioned about whether I was a coward and a pussy and things like that, but more just been disgusted with the outcomes of the real world which were completely not anticipated in a practical manner.

Anyone else have a disgustingly narcissistic hero-ideal-complex? I will unashamedly admit that I would love to brutalize a bad guy/egotistical bad guy before fucking a girl. This ideal is now psychologically rooted somewhere, and to take a stab at an action otherwise would require taking a stab at [myself = my ideal = my unrealistic self-concept]. Perhaps this is because I can "relate" to the hatred/anger enough to actually feel more of a natural drive to execute, and that would be a stepping-stone towards "feeling" a natural habit towards "cold" execution of things that don't feel needed in the present moment, but would later satisfy the judgement-of-past compulsion.

Maybe a lot of you can relate to malnourishing the inevitable and natural shit-scented male ego with procrastination, hesitation and slow identification of animal desires. Actually I do feel impulses other than internally-targeted ones, but it takes quite a long time to stir those.



So, kind of in summation:

Can lack of a direct and quick "connection" to primal substance initially be substituted by "cold execution", which is done by taking a "stop fucking procrastinating and DO it" experimental approach....and then the "feeling of being alive" will eventually be learned with practice? I don't know what I really want, I guess. I don't think it's a good idea to go be like a less-extreme Ichi the killer, who's a movie character who thinks he was bullied and that he failed to rescue a girl from being raped, and then developed all sorts of schizoid, borderline and psychosexual complexes.

P.P.Summation:

Note to self to develop a more stable and realistic midway-point between the two conflicting extreme ideals of "egotism is weak and bad" and "milk it, it's your nature". Somehow they can marry each other.

You hate the assholes so in order to show
this hate you're going to mimic their behaviour.
Am I understanding this right?

 

[GYX_Kid]

You hate the assholes so in order to show
this hate you're going to mimic their behaviour.
Am I understanding this right?

I've had inner conflicts about that. I came to realize that the realistic ideal isn't one extreme or the other. Justice is by principle also an asshole, but if you need to use your dick at all to feel satisfied with your existence then there are certain circumstances where it is not only appropriate but respectable. I'm making this sound gay. Eh, I don't feel like being a cop though

 

[^_\\]

"I enjoy myself when I'm extremely sleep deprived, because I have cool looking eyebags, and because my overanalytical compulsions aren't there as much to cause retardation."

Me too!!!11!onewonwunI'moverdoingitnow.

"Again all decisive actions are done by controlled conscious thought, with little to no influence from cojones. (The "connection" I guess) That means that there has to be more conscious willingness to take risks, if those aren't gonna help in pushing towards that decision "of substance". It's like how it's easier to open up in certain ways if you're drunk, but can't get alcohol...or if you're playing a game and just because of your nature, don't really understand the value of getting the ball but then later regret losing."



I'm thinking...

You aren't actually playing the game. It's not that you don't understand the value of getting the ball. it's that the ball is not valuable to you until everyone tells you it is. You're happilly walking through a field wearing a red t-shirt and someone mistakes you for a member of red team so when you don't get the ball (beat weak guy up/fuck hot gal) you feel like you failed, beacuse you see all the other redshirts (people) trying to do it.

Another possibility that springs to mind is that you're playing the same game as everybody else (same goals) but don't want to acknowledge that fact due to the aforementioned hero complex/fear of failure/whatever so you repress those "primal" urges and instincts leaving you disconnected from your true motives.

Maybe a bit of both.


Also I don't think justice is well characterised as an asshole.

And I think the whole primal thing is bullshit. It sounds to me like you're idealising it: like you see this primal thing in other people and tell yourself you have to be that way to be successful. Correlation/causation.



Oh and what are you saying here?

"I've had inner conflicts about that. I came to realize that the realistic ideal isn't one extreme or the other. Justice is by principle also an asshole, but if you need to use your dick at all to feel satisfied with your existence then there are certain circumstances where it is not only appropriate but respectable. I'm making this sound gay. Eh, I don't feel like being a cop though "

What do you mean by using your dick? When is this appropriate and respectable. Do you need to use your dick to feel satisfied with your existence.

disclaimer: ^_\\ (me) is not in any way qualified on this issue. Take everything he says with a pinch of salt. Also a lot of this is projection and me thinking my own shit through. But you sound like me, so maybe it will do some good.

edit: editing out some swearing. Online, tone of voice etc.

doubledit:

"it's a tradeoff for potential primal satisfaction which I'm never 100% aware of/able to identify within"

You consciously factor primal satisfaction into your decision making process? Why?

 

[EditorOne]

"Even with relationships, it's the getting the girl that "satisfies" the mission that I was aware of....now I can put penis in vagina, right? It's like I wasn't even designed to feel like I "needed" to do it."

I'm not going to tackle the whole giant waxy ball of squirming worms, but let me just offer one possibly comforting thought that this might be a relatively undiscussed manifestation of the INTP's usual approach to anything: Work hard at it until you're reasonably competent, then move on. You were competent enough at building a relationship to reach a milestone; next feeling: boredom of a sort.

Apparently I have the same approach to marriage, having been "accused" (not the right word, but dang I FELT accused) of changing from an attentive and ardent suitor into a diffident lout who pretended deafness in order to explain why he wasn't paying attention. (The deafness is real, but peculiar. Nerve damage.) Anyway, I had to change my behavior to avoid giving the wrong impression, and what you said kind of resonated, although my competency goal was apparently satisfied by marriage rather than sex. (Twice for marriage, twice accused. The wives ganged up on me.)

You still seem to be within the ballpark for INTP stuff. Really, I think most of us would, upon being told a fireball would destroy the earth in five minutes, think "isn't that interesting?" before giving way to terror and running around waving our hands. Actually I don't think I'd even do that. I'd probably just stop whatever task I was on and wait for five minutes to see if it was true: No sense fixing the roof if it's never going to rain again, etc.

Two dangers in lack of emotional engagement: 1. Your ability to handle strong emotions (like adrenaline-powered fear right before a car accident or whatever) erodes over time if you don't give emotion some practice time 2. Also over a period of time, you will be seen as uncaring, and the normal response of caring people toward uncaring people is to give them a dose of their uncaringness back, which can lead to all kinds of problems if you're required to interact with others for some reason. I've had people do backstabbing stuff to me and when I bothered to track it down and corner the source and drag it out of somebody, it was often "You don't care about us, so fuck you." Like I'm subhuman or something. If I cared more I'd get a complex or have myself declared a protected class by virtue of personality.

I hope that was at least entertaining if not actually useful.

 

[digital angel]

GYX_Kid,

I'm not sure I understand the original post. Have you talked to any one about this?

We're all just people. Relationships are like a conversation in some ways and there should be a meeting of the minds (aka an understanding). No one likes to feel used and I know you don't. What would help you feel better?

 

[Claytoe]

I felt a lot like this when I was in high school. I totally lacked that 'killer edge' that people seemed to me to all be in possession of. So I did as you said you have decided to do, to manufacture it, show my asshole to assholes etc. It worked to get people to stop getting my my face so much, by the end of high school though I was an asshole. I had friends I didn't really care for, a girlfriend I was terrible to. I was more alone than ever, I didn't even have myself as company anymore, I hated the soft thing I was under it all.

Then I grew up. That girl dumped me for being an asshole, I realized what I had become. Years of effort later I feel like I have my personality in balance. I try to be kind with cause and understanding without it. The 'killer instinct' you and I both surmised everyone else has is a myth, that or so ubiquitous that no one lacks it. If you can ameliorate your anger/sadness etc. with intelligence and empathy you are a strong person, not a weak one.

On a final note, if the only emotions I had, or things I cared about were ones I was aware of life would be pretty dull. The amount of times I have found myself at the middle of profoundly emotional conversations only to then realize how deeply I care and often how emotional I have gotten, all the while thinking I was keeping a calm distance.

Hope this casts some amount of illumination!

 

[RobdoR]

I know what you mean. I feel very little aggression. In school my dad tried to coach me on looking mean. This was supposed to help intimidate the other guy in wrestling. I never got it down. Usually when I would try, the other guy would laugh at me. I was a decent wrestler, but not very aggressive. I took a boxing class once too and the coach described my style as timid.

I'm trying to cultivate aggression, but I think you need to be dissatisfied with the situation in order to be aggressive. Usually I'm very content and satisfied. Even when I get mad, I start analyzing immediately and the anger quickly diffuses. Aggression is also not very efficient. Additionally there is the risk of making a mistake while acting aggressively.

It's like talking. aggressive people act a lot. If their action is wrong, they will change directions and act again. This come out in conversation as well. Aggressive people often say whatever comes to mind and if it's stupid, they say something else. But for me, saying something stupid is mortifying. I think that carries over to actions too.

 

[GYX_Kid]

Is there no way to edit the original post, once enough replies have been made?

I was going to say that I'm not meaning to appear whiny, and that the reason I'm doing this is to get all the information I can use in order to do maintenance on what I see as a flaw within myself.

If there's some kind of battle, I realize that I intuitively use empathetic vengeance by default. I've gotten pretty good at the art of being spiteful without executing a blatantly escalating move, which in effect leaves the enemy to fume inside their own head since they'd need to decide to switch to a different flavor of attack than the one that was done to them, to initiate all-out war in order to retaliate (unless they wanted to try the same technique.) I find that escalation tends to be predictable, since the ones who play that game tend to just ride their own cocks which they feel a connection to. And you can analyze a person's possible attacks, within a ballpark. The cold and conscious really has the advantage in terms of reality's economics...but in the end they may feel empty anyway.

I should have just consciously chosen to escalate, causing myself to hate the person and feel aggression earlier, and then won that more intense battle. Without predicting the complete end result. Actually I can't decide. Damn I am never satisfied.

I'm thinking...

You aren't actually playing the game. It's not that you don't understand the value of getting the ball. it's that the ball is not valuable to you until everyone tells you it is. You're happilly walking through a field wearing a red t-shirt and someone mistakes you for a member of red team so when you don't get the ball (beat weak guy up/fuck hot gal) you feel like you failed, beacuse you see all the other redshirts (people) trying to do it.

Another possibility that springs to mind is that you're playing the same game as everybody else (same goals) but don't want to acknowledge that fact due to the aforementioned hero complex/fear of failure/whatever so you repress those "primal" urges and instincts leaving you disconnected from your true motives.

Maybe a bit of both.

I would agree that the vast majority of competitive games are completely socially constructed and therefore completely discardable vis-a-vis biological instinct

And yeah the second one... it can overlap, haha. Actually that's pretty much exactly on target.

I'm not going to tackle the whole giant waxy ball of squirming worms, but let me just offer one possibly comforting thought that this might be a relatively undiscussed manifestation of the INTP's usual approach to anything: Work hard at it until you're reasonably competent, then move on. You were competent enough at building a relationship to reach a milestone; next feeling: boredom of a sort.

Totally. Maybe we don't revel in credit as much as automatically working to complete a challenge.

You still seem to be within the ballpark for INTP stuff. Really, I think most of us would, upon being told a fireball would destroy the earth in five minutes, think "isn't that interesting?" before giving way to terror and running around waving our hands. Actually I don't think I'd even do that. I'd probably just stop whatever task I was on and wait for five minutes to see if it was true: No sense fixing the roof if it's never going to rain again, etc.

Haha, yeah. The "inhumanly cool" side of being that way.

Two dangers in lack of emotional engagement: 1. Your ability to handle strong emotions (like adrenaline-powered fear right before a car accident or whatever) erodes over time if you don't give emotion some practice time 2. Also over a period of time, you will be seen as uncaring, and the normal response of caring people toward uncaring people is to give them a dose of their uncaringness back, which can lead to all kinds of problems if you're required to interact with others for some reason. I've had people do backstabbing stuff to me and when I bothered to track it down and corner the source and drag it out of somebody, it was often "You don't care about us, so fuck you." Like I'm subhuman or something. If I cared more I'd get a complex or have myself declared a protected class by virtue of personality.

I hope that was at least entertaining if not actually useful.

That is useful info, been learning that the hard way too.

I'm trying to cultivate aggression, but I think you need to be dissatisfied with the situation in order to be aggressive. Usually I'm very content and satisfied. Even when I get mad, I start analyzing immediately and the anger quickly diffuses. Aggression is also not very efficient. Additionally there is the risk of making a mistake while acting aggressively.

This is a key key key truth and dilemma

 

[EmergingAlbert]

The following is a reply to the OP. I haven't read the following posts yet in order not to lose my train of thought.

I can kind of relate to this complex. I have very little drive to satisfy my animal/primal desires. For example, I hardly ever feel hungry, and sometimes I'll just not eat because I don't feel like getting up and spending money on food. Although I usually do try to eat two to three times a day just because I know I need to do so to live, and I also actually enjoy eating good food.

I think an even better example would be my sex drive. It's not that I have no sex drive, but when I am feeling horny, I'm really good at ignoring my horniness. It's like, "Hey look, my penis is hard," and then I just continue with what I was doing, as if nothing had happened. I'm also a virgin, and the main reason for this is my moral and religious convictions, but it's more than that. My girlfriend would happily screw me if she got the chance, and if she tries, I don't let her because of those convictions, but unlike some other religious people who have the same convictions that I do, it's really pretty easy to resist my libido (or at least easier than it is for most people...or should I say most men). And if I do feel really horny when I'm alone, I do occasionally masturbate to relieve myself, but it's not like I actually need to do it.

I'm also, like you, a huge procrastinator. I even procrastinate things that I actually want to do. For example, I enjoy editing videos, and there's a video I need to edit for somebody. But I still haven't done it.

I think for me, what it is is just a complete lack of drive. I have desires and impulses, but I tend to kind of ignore them just because they aren't really that important to me. Besides, people often get in big trouble for mindlessly fulfilling their impulses. I don't want to be another part of that statistic.

Is this how you feel, or is it something completely different?

 

[persuedsmile612]

GYX_Kid

"Missing" a fundamental piece of natural aggression

Who said you were missing anything in the first place? If it was something you decided for yourself then ... well forget about it, it's not missing.

Worst thing to do is turn all that thinking on yourself all in one go, I don't know if I'm explaining this very well but the base of it is if you're an INTP it's probably best not to study and analize yourself. Your thoughts will never be able to go as slow as real life and reality, this mismatch is what causes thoughts to go off the wall when thinking about one's self. Also you know too much about your self so all of your views are biased and invalid. Sucks I know but can't read minds and use someone elses eyes so just think your awesome and better than everone and leave it at that...

Edit:
And yes definite lack of drive to do anything, I do do thinks but not alot, though I am good at what I like doing, quite good actually but don't tell anyone I said that.