Mental disorders and enlightenment ?

[cyberdream]

My question is simple , Most of the effects of enlightenment like awakening and meditation are similar to mental disorders ?

I think this topic annoy me to the point where i can't think about it ..

for example

Symptoms of depersonalization include:

Feelings that you're an outside observer of your thoughts, feelings, your body or parts of your body, perhaps as if you were floating in air above yourself

Isn't that what you feel when you meditate ?

Its not just this example , there are hundreds

 

[Inquisitor]

I would describe myself as Buddhist. In answer to your question, no, mental disorders are not at all the same as enlightenment. At least not in theory. I'm not an enlightened being so I can't say this 100% certainty, but enlightenment = perfect mental health. There may be a certain sense of detachment when you meditate, but that's a far cry from saying that meditation is in any way similar to depersonalization. The purpose of insight meditation (vipassana) which I practice, is to see things for what they really are. If you are successful at this, then you should be able to perceive that impermanence, dissatisfaction, and selflessness are the only constants in life. I find that meditating on old age, illness, and death is one of the best ways to ground myself in reality, instead of escaping from it online...oh wait...I'm doing that right now.

 

[Doktorin Zylinder]

This is a copy and paste considering I answered this question once already today.

I think there is a lot of confusion especially in the mental health world as to what meditation actually is. Being a practitioner of Zen and someone who sees a psychiatrist, I can tell you that they are by no means the same thing.

Depersonalization is an involuntary forced removal from yourself where you perceive a psychological separation and lack of control and is kind of like watching television in a sense. You can't do anything about it, you just have to ride it out.

Meditation is the allowance and acceptance of what is. It has no numbness, distortion, or anything like that. Things are allowed to rise up and they are observed. One can attach to them or not, usually not. Letting go is part of the point of meditation. It is a state of choice. Emotions are felt even more so. I would even go so far as to say it is a heightened state of perception in that there is no thought or anything between you and the stimulus, whatever it happens to be. Think about if you've ever walked outside on a beautiful day and, without thinking at all, you just feel the air and see what is in front of you and have an overwhelming sense of happiness because there is no thought. It's an enhancement of sensation in all its forms, not a muting of it. That is not something you will ever get with depersonalization.

When a lot of people are taught to meditate, they're usually taught some form of mindfulness. They're supposed to observe their breathing or thoughts. The thing is, most people end up counting their breaths or thinking "in," "out" or they think they're observing their thoughts when they are becoming attached to them. It's also usually taught as an anti-anxiety technique of sorts, and it's good for that, provided it's practiced correctly. In my experience, not a lot of people get it right.

It's why when taught in a Zen setting, it can take people years to learn to meditate properly. The average person who is trying to use mindfullness isn't doing it wholeheartedly nor consistently. I've known people who have tried to do it whilst laying in bed, driving their car, drinking a beer, et cetera. Now, all these things can be done whilst meditating, but I wouldn't suggest it when you're just starting out. It just hinders the experience. Eventually, meditation results in the ability to turn off thought at will and it's done in a split second. It's you and the world, the Watcher and reality. There is nothing in between like when you're thinking, nothing to mute the world around you. It's like pure experience.

 

[Knick]

In my humble opinion, depersonalization is used as a coping mechanism. An instinctual response to negative things happening to you. Conversely, enlightenment is a process that takes years and incredible amounts of work to achieve.

Depersonalization to me sounds like the mind's shortcut to enlightenment, but something is lost in translation. Life is a journey, not a destination etc etc.

 

[onesteptwostep]

I think it depends on what you want to label enlightenment. I think hypomania is somewhat like enlightenment in the sense that the physical world becomes more vibrant and that you see the good in everything. But then again hypomania is usually followed by a state of depression, so I'm not sure if that's sort of the thing you want.

I wouldn't say depersonalization is like enlightenment though. Like Zylinder said it's more of a muting of self rather than 'being on the ground'.

Is there a Russian on the forum? We could probably get some insight.

 

[8151147]

It will be arrogant if I say that I was enlightened. But from my personal experience that I got some "feeling" when I was in a long, hard, and dark depression, I would say they have a specific relationship. I'm just not sure what exactly it is.

 

[somebodiesfool]

In answer to your question, no, mental disorders are not at all the same as enlightenment. At least not in theory. I'm not an enlightened being so I can't say this 100% certainty, but enlightenment = perfect mental health.

I would disagree with your assessment. There are many different pieces of literature (particularly eastern in origin) that seem to argue against this point. The end goal of awakening toward enlightenment may be perfect mental health but often the goals are heightened states of consciousness, which take time to assimilate with your prior form of existence pre awakening.

One ancient form of awakening called Kundalini energy comes to mind because of my own experiences. Kundalini awakenings are often marked by high ups and downs similar to bipolar or often if repressed enough schizophrenia.

I'd point you to Psychosis or Transcendence by Lee Sannella or one of my favorite freebies on the web Kundalini Biology http://biologyofkundalini.com/

Excerpts:

"Whether it be from a spontaneous awakening, the result of spiritual practice (sadhana) or through Shaktipat from a Guru, metamorphosis tends to be such an overwhelming cataclysmic process that the more knowledge and tools for the road we have the better. What we really need to do if we are going to submit to our own evolution, is to strengthen ourselves to be able to endure the all-consuming flame of spirit. My aim in writing this book is to help others to support their chemistry so an awakening can be sustained rather than go wildly up and down. For in my experience after a full-on six month kundalini peak it takes about five years to recover. One can see in each of us going through this phenomena, that it is transpersonal, archetypal and trans-anthropomorphic. Though in its insidious omnipresence it is intensely personal and specific, especially crafted to our own unique needs and condition. Kundalini works with whatever we have built ourselves to be. Whatever our encrustations and blocks, the fire in perfect equanimity uses everything good and bad to fuel the flame of consciousness."

One area of the book that comes to mind (trying to come out a bout of depression myself):

"There are many undergoing this process who at times feel quite insane. When they behave well and keep silent they may avoid being called schizophrenic, or being hospitalized, or sedated. Nevertheless their isolation and sense of separation from others may cause them such suffering. We must reach such people, their families, and society, with information to help them recognize their condition as a blessing, not a curse. Certainly we must no longer subject people, who might be in the midst of this rebirth process, to drugs or shock therapies, approaches which are at opposite poles to creative self-development." P.60, Lee Sannella, M.D. Kundalini, Psychosis or Transcendence?

"Prescription psychoactive drugs (antidepressants and antipsychotics) can arrest or completely abort a transformational process. This may sound desirable to those who are having a hard time of it, but these drugs do not return one to normal; instead, they tend to freeze the process in its present state. Worse, antidepressants can trigger psychosis for those in a delicate psychospiritual state, and the neuroleptics (antipsychotics) can cause tardive dyskinesia, a persistent and in many cases irreversible pathological syndrome which resembles kriyas! Even so, some people are so prone to severe depression or debilitating psychosis in the heightened states that they cannot function without the temporary aid of these drugs." El Collie

 

[somebodiesfool]

Kundalini also parallels body symptoms similar to what some schizophrenics report. The kriyas especially. As described to me in some of the literature I read the hard involuntary contractions of muscles known as kriyas are alleviating blocks. And the science of yoga ultimately seeks to reduce these kriyas and help clear blocks allowing energy to flow through the body easier. But from my perspective. Kriyas were highly DISTRACTING for years after they began to occur. Just when you have no training in any of this after my awakening you are like WTH is this twitching. Finally, I learned what it was. But like the author says it takes years to recover from a heightened state back down again. I'm just trying to level off myself,

Here is a list of kriyas:




KRIYA YOGA
Muscle twitching, cramps or spasms, shaking, trembling, limpness, rigid-contraction, facial contortions. Itching, vibrating, pricking, tingling, effervescent bubbles of bliss. Tingling/throbbing in left foot and leg is one of the main signs that kundalini is active. Hot or cold changes in body temperature. Shooting currents of energy or heat. Zigzag or double helix of energy up the spine. Prana flow in the central nervous system. Pulsating sensation in the sacrum. Involuntary laughing or crying, deep sighs. Abdomen may flatten toward the spine. Contraction of visceral organs. The anus contracts and is drawn up (bandhas). Purging or constipation. Bad digestion. Chin may press down against the neck (neck lock posture). Eyeballs roll upwards or rotate. Eyelids may not open despite effort to open them. Left eyelid flickers, then towards the end of the awakening the right eye may flicker. Tongue rises to the roof of the mouth or stretches back. Repetitive popping sensation in the sinus above the palette. Body may twist in all directions. Body may bend forward or back, or roll around on the floor. Spontaneous asanas and mudrus. Breathing constriction, heaviness or contraction of diaphragm. Unusual breathing patterns, tendency to belly breathe, emphatic out-breath. Racing heart, expansion pains in heart. Feeling of levitation or intensified gravity, radical grounding and associated lethargy, Chronic Fatigue. Body sense might expand to feel huge or small. Strange aches and head pressures, headaches. Clenching jaw. Yawning, excessive sleep. Inability to sleep during hyperactivation; Hyperactivity, need to constantly walk or exercise. Dry throat, great thirst. Feeling headlessness, mindless, giddy, heaviness of head like one is wearing a helmet. Build up of pressure at the head, neck, spine, thorax and eyes. Paralysis during Samadhi or hypnogogic states. Numbness and pain in limbs, especially the left foot and leg. Numbness on the left scalp and down into left face, with drooping of the left eyelid. Years of pain in the throat (thyroid) or in the left foot or shin prior to the awakening. Loss of strength in the arms during rapture and heart expansions. Psychokinetic interference with electrical equipment. Smell of roses or peaches eminating from the skin.
LAYA YOGA
Inner visions and lights, flames, geometric shapes. Visions of deities, or saints. Dream-scenes. Inner sounds, celestial music, bird sounds, animal sounds. Buzzing or humming in the ears. Inner voices. Spontaneous mantras. Speaking in tongues or foreign languages. Smell of perfume arises. Transcendental vision, everything illuminated scintillating, vibrating. Dreams and visions in transcendental vision. Atom bomb dreams. Temporary loss of eyesight.
BHAKTI YOGA
Love with no object arises. Devotion. Sublime gratitude. Uncommon compassion and understanding. Tolerance and patience for "What Is." Enormous faith accompanies the bliss. Transcendence of reactive patterns, social conditioning and egoic habits. Intense sexual arousal without provocation. Intensified sexual and sensoral pleasure. Feeling of gaseous bubbles arising from reproductive organs, champagne pelvis. Feeling of radiating ambrosial bliss, an aura of nectar. Heat, sweat. Strange activity and bliss in different areas of the head at different times. Sensations of blissful honey moving through brain, spine and connecting heart to other parts of the body. Traveling bliss, or pervasive bliss, rapture. Spontaneous sexual ecstasy with no stimulation. Increased ESP, precognitive dreams, telepathy. Bio-location of loved one through heart's navigation. Alchemical preparation for future unknown events, ie: translocal transtime development. Linear time transcended. Feeling of entire life reaching a nexus point in time. Heightened senses. Hyper-sensitive. Field of self widens, peripheral awareness increases. Exquisite awareness of one's environment and others. Ability to affect energetic states and promote heart expansion in others via sympathetic resonance.
JNANA YOGA
Deep questions and answers arise. Spontaneous mystic poetry that writes itself. Important insights, eurekas. Scientific and creative solutions. The Herald of the Muse appearing as a sound or voice in the upper right-brain field prior to the emergence of information. Increased creativity and expression. Intensified understanding. Finer focus on "the most important thing." Compulsive need to write.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

hmmm....

I would say they are intertwined in the sense that mental "disorders" teach observers how to think in different ways and provide different perspectives. The word disorders is in quotes because they're defined by the majority as outliers... A schizophrenic in the U.S. could be a revered holy man in a tribal system.

But anyway... enlightenment is a relative phenomenon. It seems that those outliers with mental disorders have an edge in enlightening others.

BHAKTI YOGA

Spoiler

Love with no object arises. Devotion. Sublime gratitude. Uncommon compassion and understanding. Tolerance and patience for "What Is." Enormous faith accompanies the bliss. Transcendence of reactive patterns, social conditioning and egoic habits. Intense sexual arousal without provocation. Intensified sexual and sensoral pleasure. Feeling of gaseous bubbles arising from reproductive organs, champagne pelvis. Feeling of radiating ambrosial bliss, an aura of nectar. Heat, sweat. Strange activity and bliss in different areas of the head at different times. Sensations of blissful honey moving through brain, spine and connecting heart to other parts of the body. Traveling bliss, or pervasive bliss, rapture. Spontaneous sexual ecstasy with no stimulation. Increased ESP, precognitive dreams, telepathy. Bio-location of loved one through heart's navigation. Alchemical preparation for future unknown events, ie: translocal transtime development. Linear time transcended. Feeling of entire life reaching a nexus point in time. Heightened senses. Hyper-sensitive. Field of self widens, peripheral awareness increases. Exquisite awareness of one's environment and others. Ability to affect energetic states and promote heart expansion in others via sympathetic resonance.

^^^OMG YES!!! This is my experience with mania, in its totality.

 

[Inquisitor]

I would disagree with your assessment. There are many different pieces of literature (particularly eastern in origin) that seem to argue against this point. The end goal of awakening toward enlightenment may be perfect mental health but often the goals are heightened states of consciousness, which take time to assimilate with your prior form of existence pre awakening.

Not getting what you disagree with..."enlightenment = perfect mental health," that's pretty much a direct quote from the Buddhist Pali scriptures.

One ancient form of awakening called Kundalini energy comes to mind because of my own experiences. Kundalini awakenings are often marked by high ups and downs similar to bipolar or often if repressed enough schizophrenia.

That's BS. Sorry to be so blunt, but I don't believe you actually experienced a "Kundalini awakening." If you experienced any of the symptoms you described above, you're doing something wrong. Think about it. When you meditate properly, your mind becomes calmer, not schizophrenic or bipolar. This is in turn leads to a state of greater well-being, happiness, and joy. Awakening Kundalini is just the first step. Once it's awake, you have to move it from the base of the spine all the way to the crown of the head. At least that's my crude understanding of the process. Over time, and with the proper guidance of an experienced teacher you can learn to conquer all the "fetters" or "shackles" that keep you tied to your sense of self such as greed, hatred, lust, etc. Each time you remove one of these shackles, Kundalini moves further up your spine opening different chakras along the way. I would suggest you read this before something bad happens.

Dangers of Meditation

I'd point you to Psychosis or Transcendence by Lee Sannella or one of my favorite freebies on the web Kundalini Biology http://biologyofkundalini.com/

The woman looks like a crackpot. I wouldn't trust what she says. As for Sannella, he looks sincere enough, and I will look into what he has to offer.

There are two patterns I've noticed here though:

1) People misattribute all kinds of psychological problems to Kundalini awakening. The whole thing has been trivialized in the west. It takes focused, dedicated practice to awaken and then move it. As far as I can tell, when people say they have a "Kundalini crisis," they've usually either a) become lost in the forest or b) they've messed themselves up through improper practice of meditation/yoga/chanting etc.

2) I don't get why so many people seem to believe that because they have science, they understand more about Kundalini than experienced monks/saddhus, etc. It's always better to trust the person who has the most experience. And even then you have to be very careful. There are so many false teachers out there, and India is no exception. Meditation is very powerful. If you do it too much or incorrectly, it can have serious consequences and f*ck your shit up. That's not Kundalini. That's psychological damage, and it can take quite a long time to come back from that.

If you want to get a more realistic idea of what Kundalini awakening might look like from a Tantric's perspective, I would suggest Robert Svoboda's Aghora series.

Spoiler

Excerpts:

"Whether it be from a spontaneous awakening, the result of spiritual practice (sadhana) or through Shaktipat from a Guru, metamorphosis tends to be such an overwhelming cataclysmic process that the more knowledge and tools for the road we have the better. What we really need to do if we are going to submit to our own evolution, is to strengthen ourselves to be able to endure the all-consuming flame of spirit. My aim in writing this book is to help others to support their chemistry so an awakening can be sustained rather than go wildly up and down. For in my experience after a full-on six month kundalini peak it takes about five years to recover. One can see in each of us going through this phenomena, that it is transpersonal, archetypal and trans-anthropomorphic. Though in its insidious omnipresence it is intensely personal and specific, especially crafted to our own unique needs and condition. Kundalini works with whatever we have built ourselves to be. Whatever our encrustations and blocks, the fire in perfect equanimity uses everything good and bad to fuel the flame of consciousness."

One area of the book that comes to mind (trying to come out a bout of depression myself):

"There are many undergoing this process who at times feel quite insane. When they behave well and keep silent they may avoid being called schizophrenic, or being hospitalized, or sedated. Nevertheless their isolation and sense of separation from others may cause them such suffering. We must reach such people, their families, and society, with information to help them recognize their condition as a blessing, not a curse. Certainly we must no longer subject people, who might be in the midst of this rebirth process, to drugs or shock therapies, approaches which are at opposite poles to creative self-development." P.60, Lee Sannella, M.D. Kundalini, Psychosis or Transcendence?

"Prescription psychoactive drugs (antidepressants and antipsychotics) can arrest or completely abort a transformational process. This may sound desirable to those who are having a hard time of it, but these drugs do not return one to normal; instead, they tend to freeze the process in its present state. Worse, antidepressants can trigger psychosis for those in a delicate psychospiritual state, and the neuroleptics (antipsychotics) can cause tardive dyskinesia, a persistent and in many cases irreversible pathological syndrome which resembles kriyas! Even so, some people are so prone to severe depression or debilitating psychosis in the heightened states that they cannot function without the temporary aid of these drugs." El Collie[/QUOTE]

Kundalini also parallels body symptoms similar to what some schizophrenics report. The kriyas especially. As described to me in some of the literature I read the hard involuntary contractions of muscles known as kriyas are alleviating blocks. And the science of yoga ultimately seeks to reduce these kriyas and help clear blocks allowing energy to flow through the body easier. But from my perspective. Kriyas were highly DISTRACTING for years after they began to occur. Just when you have no training in any of this after my awakening you are like WTH is this twitching. Finally, I learned what it was. But like the author says it takes years to recover from a heightened state back down again. I'm just trying to level off myself,

Here is a list of kriyas:




KRIYA YOGA
Muscle twitching, cramps or spasms, shaking, trembling, limpness, rigid-contraction, facial contortions. Itching, vibrating, pricking, tingling, effervescent bubbles of bliss. Tingling/throbbing in left foot and leg is one of the main signs that kundalini is active. Hot or cold changes in body temperature. Shooting currents of energy or heat. Zigzag or double helix of energy up the spine. Prana flow in the central nervous system. Pulsating sensation in the sacrum. Involuntary laughing or crying, deep sighs. Abdomen may flatten toward the spine. Contraction of visceral organs. The anus contracts and is drawn up (bandhas). Purging or constipation. Bad digestion. Chin may press down against the neck (neck lock posture). Eyeballs roll upwards or rotate. Eyelids may not open despite effort to open them. Left eyelid flickers, then towards the end of the awakening the right eye may flicker. Tongue rises to the roof of the mouth or stretches back. Repetitive popping sensation in the sinus above the palette. Body may twist in all directions. Body may bend forward or back, or roll around on the floor. Spontaneous asanas and mudrus. Breathing constriction, heaviness or contraction of diaphragm. Unusual breathing patterns, tendency to belly breathe, emphatic out-breath. Racing heart, expansion pains in heart. Feeling of levitation or intensified gravity, radical grounding and associated lethargy, Chronic Fatigue. Body sense might expand to feel huge or small. Strange aches and head pressures, headaches. Clenching jaw. Yawning, excessive sleep. Inability to sleep during hyperactivation; Hyperactivity, need to constantly walk or exercise. Dry throat, great thirst. Feeling headlessness, mindless, giddy, heaviness of head like one is wearing a helmet. Build up of pressure at the head, neck, spine, thorax and eyes. Paralysis during Samadhi or hypnogogic states. Numbness and pain in limbs, especially the left foot and leg. Numbness on the left scalp and down into left face, with drooping of the left eyelid. Years of pain in the throat (thyroid) or in the left foot or shin prior to the awakening. Loss of strength in the arms during rapture and heart expansions. Psychokinetic interference with electrical equipment. Smell of roses or peaches eminating from the skin.
LAYA YOGA
Inner visions and lights, flames, geometric shapes. Visions of deities, or saints. Dream-scenes. Inner sounds, celestial music, bird sounds, animal sounds. Buzzing or humming in the ears. Inner voices. Spontaneous mantras. Speaking in tongues or foreign languages. Smell of perfume arises. Transcendental vision, everything illuminated scintillating, vibrating. Dreams and visions in transcendental vision. Atom bomb dreams. Temporary loss of eyesight.
BHAKTI YOGA
Love with no object arises. Devotion. Sublime gratitude. Uncommon compassion and understanding. Tolerance and patience for "What Is." Enormous faith accompanies the bliss. Transcendence of reactive patterns, social conditioning and egoic habits. Intense sexual arousal without provocation. Intensified sexual and sensoral pleasure. Feeling of gaseous bubbles arising from reproductive organs, champagne pelvis. Feeling of radiating ambrosial bliss, an aura of nectar. Heat, sweat. Strange activity and bliss in different areas of the head at different times. Sensations of blissful honey moving through brain, spine and connecting heart to other parts of the body. Traveling bliss, or pervasive bliss, rapture. Spontaneous sexual ecstasy with no stimulation. Increased ESP, precognitive dreams, telepathy. Bio-location of loved one through heart's navigation. Alchemical preparation for future unknown events, ie: translocal transtime development. Linear time transcended. Feeling of entire life reaching a nexus point in time. Heightened senses. Hyper-sensitive. Field of self widens, peripheral awareness increases. Exquisite awareness of one's environment and others. Ability to affect energetic states and promote heart expansion in others via sympathetic resonance.
JNANA YOGA
Deep questions and answers arise. Spontaneous mystic poetry that writes itself. Important insights, eurekas. Scientific and creative solutions. The Herald of the Muse appearing as a sound or voice in the upper right-brain field prior to the emergence of information. Increased creativity and expression. Intensified understanding. Finer focus on "the most important thing." Compulsive need to write.

 

[somebodiesfool]

Those symptoms are fairly common during the ascent. You could likely find them many other places. If a Guru more suits your fancy go look there. I'm sorry I didn't pick the proper guru suited to your liking and personal appearance for my references. Secondly, I do consult a guru on this stuff and his name was Jesus. Though, some of this newer material has bridged the gap for me so, I look at it as well. I'm sure the next thing you will teach me is this is incompatible with Christianity.

Secondly, I don't need to prove anything to you about me personally I could care less if you think I had one or not. When you know you know. I awakened mine by hard core asceticism and deep study of Holy Scripture. I didn't know a freaking thing about kundalini before it happened. Doing as taught in James is more important than sitting around chanting ohm to have an awakening IMHO. But I have read stories of people doing it via meditation so to each their own.

Gopi Krishna....read his biography and then tell me if your definition fits his life.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

It seems to me that the person who can access multiple worlds or states is more enlightened; the reason why the "chameleon" figure is revered and/or feared in cultures around the world. Dissociative Identity Disorder and sociopathy come to mind, as do chameleon shetani.

I've only done what came naturally to me (left hand path, unscripted). That's all I could ever advise. Every road has bumps; your speed of travel determines if they hurt you or not.

 

[redbaron]

enlightenment is 4 dum ppl lol

 

[onesteptwostep]

It seems to me that the person who can access multiple worlds or states is more enlightened;

Not entirely. Enlightenment isn't the same as Awakening. Enlightenment will only give you understanding of things but won't give you the drive that will cause righteous action. The person who can 'access multiple states' (or have knowledge of them) can use that to his or her advantage. Some psychologists who are aware of this may use that to their advantage and sell anti-psychotic medication for their own greed. It's often the case that psychologists are clueless on about spirituality, but those who understand the causes of mental disorder sometimes use it for selfish gain.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Enlightenment will only give you understanding of things but won't give you the drive that will cause righteous action.

Yup, I'm definitely missing that part. Or I've lost it. Can't decide.

 

[redbaron]

Can someone define their version of enlightenment for me? I want to argue over it.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Meh. Enlightenment's ubiquitous. Any argument with me would likely become intersubjectivity vs objectivity. You're all my gurus.

Anyway, I've got to sleep and wait for people to die so I can scavenge their belongings.

 

[onesteptwostep]

There really isn't a set 'version' of enlightenment. It's one of those 'donkey with a carrot stick' kind of thing. Apparently Gautama 'reached' enlightenment, or Nirvana, but it's most likely that he just understood the world better than anyone else at the time (he was a prince of a large empire). So he understood a lot of the various facets and elements of life. He wasn't legalistic (as in he didn't 'ethicalise' what he understood) but used parables to present situations where multiple viewpoints were considered. The state of enlightenment just depends on what level of knowledge you have. It perceives direction, cause and effect, but is clueless on what direction one has to go.

You know how the Buddha always smiles right? Ideally, it's because he hopes for the future. But it's more often the case that the Buddha smiles because people think of him as holy, when he himself knows that he isn't some deity. Hence the irony, hence the smile.

Anyway we're really off topic.

 

[Belcher]

Healthy discussion here. I have read the whole thread and now looking for more discussion about the mental disorder.

 

[nanook]

[deleted some stuff because of poor wording]

awakening can not be defined in terms of what it is or how it will make a person act, it can only be defined by what has fallen away.

the sense of separation. i would say separation becomes transparent and does therefore no longer constitute credible separation. but remains as a sense of self.

defining awakening is impossible, like butterflies wouldn't agree about what they are, because they can't see themselves in a mirror, nor dissect themselves, nor are they all the same race of butterfly, but they sure know they ain't this cocoon that has fallen to the ground.

in the case of pathology, you are typically looking at a rope, who feels extremely itchy within it's own skin or maybe cocoon.

ken wilber describes what a pre-trans fallacy is.

it is many things, an abstract concept. the above is one example. something that is early (pre) in development looks like something that comes later (trans) in development and is confused by superficial outside observers who don't understand development.

ken wilber gives maybe the best maps of awakening AND pathologies and everything else. but his writing is not as illustrative of the territory, as is the writing of carl jung, ken never makes one understand WHY a particular psyche would be compelled to retreat into the emptiness of "I am none of this shit", or why another psyche would be ready to open up towards the fullness of "everything is of the same spirit, as is this self called me". ken only maps out HOW our structure supports such changes of perspective.

(more poor wording, but i can't seem to help it today )

 

[StevenM]

enlightenment is 4 dum ppl lol

Can someone define their version of enlightenment for me? I want to argue over it.

Actually, that would probably be a bad idea. I'm being completely serious as I speculate that a certain 'enlightenment', or spiritual connection is much easier for you to access and assimilate than it is for the most of others.

I'm wondering if you have almost constant access to this state of wisdom; the visions of the evolution of the past being projected into the future, and a perception of an underlying ether not occupying space or matter.

For most people, I think we are lucky if we even catch a glimpse of it. Then let alone be able to comprehend or utilize it effectively.

*add on being able to actually describe it succinctly* (I tried)

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

I'm wondering if you have almost constant access to this state of wisdom; the visions of the evolution of the past being projected into the future, and a perception of an underlying ether not occupying space or matter.

For most people, I think we are lucky if we even catch a glimpse of it. Then let alone be able to comprehend or utilize it effectively.

*add on being able to actually describe it succinctly* (I tried)

What you describe is the feeling of understanding a process and seeing its implications. At least I call it understanding.

I wouldn't distinguish from spiritual states of awarness, mental perception (described in your post) and altered states of consciousness such as disorders.

In that way disorders and alterations do have a common element with meditation and overall sensual shift, mentally it is also possible to forget one exists.

I can get so lost in thinking about something that when someone wants to say something to me they have to pull my shirt because I don't hear or see anything. I also can't recognise people for some time after I've been turned off, it's like the sensory input is gradually being picked up by my brain again. I used to zone-out in most unstimulating situations when I was younger, now I know when I can do it and when it's dangerous.
I remember when I was almost hit by a car once when I was crossing a road in that state without checking the lights (I didn't check because I was used to the timings, but at that day they reprogrammed the whole intersection). The guy stopped the car, ran after me, physically held me and started shouting, then I asked him what happened, so that's the only way I could remember it even occurred, then I saw his car and the marks when he started breaking, so I apologised.

 

[StevenM]

I can get so lost in thinking about something that when someone wants to say something to me they have to pull my shirt because I don't hear or see anything. I also can't recognise people for some time after I've been turned off, it's like the sensory input is gradually being picked up by my brain again. I used to zone-out in most unstimulating situations when I was younger, now I know when I can do it and when it's dangerous.
I remember when I was almost hit by a car once when I was crossing a road in that state without checking the lights (I didn't check because I was used to the timings, but at that day they reprogrammed the whole intersection). The guy stopped the car, ran after me, physically held me and started shouting, then I asked him what happened, so that's the only way I could remember it even happened, then I saw his car and the marks when he started breaking, so I apologised.

Yeah, I've done similar as well. I remember where I was in deep thought, and the next thing I knew, I 'tuned' back in where I found myself sitting behind a job interviewer, asking me to describe myself.

However, while I'm in that deep thought state, I tend to be playing with a single idea, breaking it apart into other ideas, then taking the time to think about each piece, possibly breaking them down further.

At no point in my deep thought process do I feel like I'm losing my mind, or do I have any 'spiritual' moments. I'm just sort of phased out in my own mind, working on something.

What you describe is the feeling of understanding a process and seeing its implications. At least I call it understanding.

Yes, true, I basically described understanding. However, the actually image that I'm trying to convey is something a little bigger than that. In another somewhat failed attempt, I'd say it's not the understanding of just a certain context, but a broader picture encompassing everything, where the certain context is only just a single piece of a jigsaw puzzle. In a certain glimpse, I get awestruck just how snug this piece fits in, and it's important function in the grand mechanism that operates... 'everything' behind the scenes.

Of course, that was just figurative. It's hard not to go abstract when trying to paint this picture. Also, I'm not going through any kind of spiritual awareness /mental disorder right now, so that adds in the challenge and confusion of describing it.

 

[Inquisitor]

Those symptoms are fairly common during the ascent. You could likely find them many other places. If a Guru more suits your fancy go look there. I'm sorry I didn't pick the proper guru suited to your liking and personal appearance for my references. Secondly, I do consult a guru on this stuff and his name was Jesus. Though, some of this newer material has bridged the gap for me so, I look at it as well. I'm sure the next thing you will teach me is this is incompatible with Christianity.

Secondly, I don't need to prove anything to you about me personally I could care less if you think I had one or not. When you know you know. I awakened mine by hard core asceticism and deep study of Holy Scripture. I didn't know a freaking thing about kundalini before it happened. Doing as taught in James is more important than sitting around chanting ohm to have an awakening IMHO. But I have read stories of people doing it via meditation so to each their own.

Gopi Krishna....read his biography and then tell me if your definition fits his life.

I haven't read that biography, but I will look into it along with the others you mentioned. FWIW, I believe you when you say you had some kind of "awakening," but you don't have enough experience to judge WTH it actually was. Have you had any formal training of any kind? If you have, I retract what I said, and I will concede that you might indeed have been successful and know what you're getting into.

If you're doing this on your own, (Jesus might help, but he's no substitute for a real guru) what you experienced may or may not have been a Kundalini disorder, but without proper guidance, you'll never know for sure, and you may be putting your mental health at risk. You just said you were coming out of a "bout of depression." That's the problem that we face in western countries in particular. The notion of Kundalini has been widely popularized, and people have gotten this (imo ridiculous) idea into their heads that it's relatively easy and desirable to ascend it. It's neither. Unless you take monastic vows and plan on sticking with them for the rest of your life, raising Kundalini is a very, very bad idea. Here's why:

It's basically a process of disidentification with your body and the world. You're gradually cutting off all attachment to worldly things. How do you expect to get married and have kids and a job if you're doing everything in your power not to be attached to those very things? It's very dangerous and very corrosive to your well-being. You need attachments if you want to survive in the world. Competition is so extreme these days that you need to be totally focused on achieving your worldly goals. That means wanting to obtain material success in whatever form it might be. If you plan on spending the rest of your life living in a temple meditating, it's a different story. One form of meditation for example is to view members of the opposite sex as walking skeletons. It's very effective. I tried it for a little bit just to see what would happen. My sex drive went down. That's not healthy for someone who might want to get married eventually.

A little meditation every day is healthy, and I think everyone should do it. Maybe 30 minutes to 1 hour each day. I would feel comfortable doing more on a retreat under the guidance of monks.

Anyway, this whole business of kundalini ascension should only be attempted when all your other worldly desires fade away. Once they naturally drop off, that's when you know it's time to say goodbye to the world and "become dead to society" while still remaining physically alive. Typically in Hinduism, laypeople only attempt this after they've had a full life. They've already had careers, the kids are grown up and have gotten married and even had kids of their own, all debts have been settled, and there's nothing else they feel like doing in the world.

 

[redbaron]

Actually, that would probably be a bad idea. I'm being completely serious as I speculate that a certain 'enlightenment', or spiritual connection is much easier for you to access and assimilate than it is for the most of others.

I'm wondering if you have almost constant access to this state of wisdom; the visions of the evolution of the past being projected into the future, and a perception of an underlying ether not occupying space or matter.

For most people, I think we are lucky if we even catch a glimpse of it. Then let alone be able to comprehend or utilize it effectively.

*add on being able to actually describe it succinctly* (I tried)

To be honest I just wanted to see what people's perceptions of enlightenment actually were in the first place, to give more context to their previous posts.

Enlightenment has become such a catchword these days that it's impossible to know what people are actually referring to when it comes to enlightenment. Which invariably leads to arguments about whose definition and methods of enlightenment are correct.

Which doesn't surprise me given that people are typically quite touchy when it comes to their personal spiritual beliefs. If the concept of enlightenment does hold any merit, I'm sure that it doesn't stem from the "replacement messiah" interpretation that seems so apparent.

It's becoming (or has already become) another organised religion, except with online subscriptions instead of collection plates. Of course, everyone's going to argue their version is the correct one.

 

[Yellow]

My question is simple , Most of the effects of enlightenment like awakening and meditation are similar to mental disorders ?

...

Symptoms of depersonalization include:

Feelings that you're an outside observer of your thoughts, feelings, your body or parts of your body, perhaps as if you were floating in air above yourself

Isn't that what you feel when you meditate ?

Its not just this example , there are hundreds

Okay, first, to clarify: One symptom, does not a mental disorder make.
If you flip through the DSM (V or IV-TR, whichever you have on hand), or the ICD-9, you'll notice many paragraphs used to define and to justify diagnosis.

In your example of Depersonalization Disorder (DPD), now called Depersonalization/Derealization Disorder (DDD), you must first establish that it is not caused by any drugs or medical conditions and that the "unreal" symptom is not being caused by any other disorder. Then the main symptoms are displayed:

An individual consistently has a feeling of both or either depersonalization or derealization.

1. Depersonalization: Experiences of unreality, detachment, or being an outside observer with respect to one's thoughts, feelings, sensations, body, or actions (e.g.,perceptual alterations, distorted sense of time, unreal or absent self, emotional and/or physical numbing.)"
2. Derealization: "Experiences of unreality or detachment with respect to surroundings (e.g., individuals or objects are experienced as unreal, dreamlike, foggy, lifeless, or visually distorted."

This, unlike practices that supposedly lead to enlightenment is not something that the sufferer can control or turn on and off at will. Continued reading reveals that the person is usually frightened by the episodes and think it is a sign that they are going crazy or that there is something wrong with their neurological health.

To further remove this from the concept of enlightenment, people with this disorder are characterized by immature defenses, a harm-avoidant temperament, and display acting out behaviors that result in a denial or reality and poor adaptation. They have "impaired autonomy with themes of dependency, vulnerability, and incompetence". They also almost always have a history of childhood trauma, severe stress, or heavy drug use.

So no, when you take the disorder as a whole, and not just a small part of it, it cannot be mistaken for enlightenment, nor the path to enlightenment.

Now, I understand that people want to romanticize mental disorders. If you think you have a disorder, or if you feel "abnormal" and don't know why, you want to pin-point the problem and turn it into a strength. It's a far better feeling than the nagging thought that you may be somehow impaired or "less" than others.

Luckily, mental disorders don't make you any less worthy of help, health, or happiness. We all go to the doctor, the minister, and/or loved ones to help us with problems that arise. Sometimes, we have to see a Psychiatrist or a Counselor too. It's no biggie.

 

[somebodiesfool]

I haven't read that biography, but I will look into it along with the others you mentioned. FWIW, I believe you when you say you had some kind of "awakening," but you don't have enough experience to judge WTH it actually was. Have you had any formal training of any kind? If you have, I retract what I said, and I will concede that you might indeed have been successful and know what you're getting into.

If you're doing this on your own, (Jesus might help, but he's no substitute for a real guru) what you experienced may or may not have been a Kundalini disorder, but without proper guidance, you'll never know for sure, and you may be putting your mental health at risk. You just said you were coming out of a "bout of depression." That's the problem that we face in western countries in particular. The notion of Kundalini has been widely popularized, and people have gotten this (imo ridiculous) idea into their heads that it's relatively easy and desirable to ascend it. It's neither. Unless you take monastic vows and plan on sticking with them for the rest of your life, raising Kundalini is a very, very bad idea. Here's why:

It's basically a process of disidentification with your body and the world. You're gradually cutting off all attachment to worldly things. How do you expect to get married and have kids and a job if you're doing everything in your power not to be attached to those very things? It's very dangerous and very corrosive to your well-being. You need attachments if you want to survive in the world. Competition is so extreme these days that you need to be totally focused on achieving your worldly goals. That means wanting to obtain material success in whatever form it might be. If you plan on spending the rest of your life living in a temple meditating, it's a different story. One form of meditation for example is to view members of the opposite sex as walking skeletons. It's very effective. I tried it for a little bit just to see what would happen. My sex drive went down. That's not healthy for someone who might want to get married eventually.

A little meditation every day is healthy, and I think everyone should do it. Maybe 30 minutes to 1 hour each day. I would feel comfortable doing more on a retreat under the guidance of monks.

Anyway, this whole business of kundalini ascension should only be attempted when all your other worldly desires fade away. Once they naturally drop off, that's when you know it's time to say goodbye to the world and "become dead to society" while still remaining physically alive. Typically in Hinduism, laypeople only attempt this after they've had a full life. They've already had careers, the kids are grown up and have gotten married and even had kids of their own, all debts have been settled, and there's nothing else they feel like doing in the world.

Thank you for the lighter and more friendly reply. It is appreciated. I found the Lee Sannella book if you'd like to check it out for free online:
http://www.kundaliniawakeningsystems1.com/downloads/kundalini-psychosis-or-transcendence.pdf

Well, as far as I gather the story with Gopi Krishna goes sort of similar to my experiences. He was younger and led a disciplined lifestyle. All of a sudden one day he had an intense mystical experience similar to a psychosis or a hallucination. Ultimately, he got through it but it was after years of hardships. Kundalini had all but been forgotten around his time of awakening. In his book it states:

"Lacking the guiding hand of a master, it is Gopi Krishna's fate to be thrown from one despair into another, hectic​

ups-and-downs, the daily bread of this sensational experience. Like Faust, Na Ro Pa and many others, he finds a​

solution several times in his life only at the point of death. Even commonplace events take on an enormous character​

and lead him into depressions and dangers almost to the point of ruination. His own analysis of that situation is that the​

awakened Kundalini went up into the Pingala instead of into the Sushumna where it rightfully belongs. Where does all​

this lead him? To constant light-awareness, shimmering halo-consciousness but interrupted repeatedly by years of​

relapse and illness."

From here:
http://www.kundaliniawakeningsystem...tionary-energy-in-man_gopi-krishna_(89pg).pdf

That's how it was with me. I had never been at such a high level spiritually in my life. I had been practicing extreme asceticism. Accompanying my strict lifestyle and diet (ate completely raw uncooked fruits and veggies only), I added many hours of study of sacred texts. This was mostly Christian both the traditional Bible but I had become increasingly more interested in Gnostic texts a I went onward. Then one day it hit me like a ton of bricks. I was in my room musing over experience and catalysts for change in life. That took me on a wild trip. The last hallucination I saw was a voice saying show me you can see so I entered a state of gnosis or intense focus in my third eye. There I could see this image on my hospital room in lights on the wall: https://www.google.com/search?q=flower+of+life&biw=1280&bih=595&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=f4doVdSJF5agyAT7l4HADQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#imgrc=AFZKsDQ2kEHvkM%253A%3Bkov9cWVu5m7t-M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi.ytimg.com%252Fvi%252F_pt-5LLP6dM%252Fhqdefault.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253D_pt-5LLP6dM%3B480%3B360

I did not know it was the flower of life at the time. During the process all my intuition told me I was entering a rebirth process. It was very intense. And about a day or two of visions took me years to reconcile to myself. After the experience I tried to make sense of it to no avail. I found vague references to essentially being born again in Christian literature but nothing that really helped me in the here and now. That's when I turned to this eastern concept of Kundalini because the descriptions mirrored mine. Regardless, it's been a very difficult road for me. I often have been put on antipsychotics, which slow me down enough to function but I feel dead inside. This time though, I will stick with what my doctors asked of me. I found a very understanding one this time and he said in another year I can go unmedicated again, which is my ultimate wish. This is what I want because I suspect the drugs interfere with the rebirth process.

You are right that I probably need a guru. I've looked into many things. As you clearly stated and were surprisingly right in your assessment. Functioning in the world has become a complete drag to me. I've been told I'm hard to talk to, very little excites me any more. I feel on an island alone with only God to communicate. I'm taking a new job shortly. And if I can not deal with it my plans is to convert to be a trappist monk and live out the rest of my years in solitude and meditation doing manual labor and devotions. I feel deep inside that would make me happy.

Unfortunately, I do have desires for a consort. But my dreams are just not there anymore. I guess maybe desires? I use to dream of settling down with the right girl and raising a family. I use to dream of making the next big invention. But those have all left me. It's like this kundalini process conditions you almost. It conditions a lot of the world out of you I mean. I pray for the day when I can consciously leave here as I feel I have very little left to accomplish.

It kind of hurt my feelings when you criticized Jana Dixon. Her writings have been very instrumental in helping me find my way. Just her practice skills alone. Additionally, she has always been open to helping me on a personal level with appropriate activities, diet, and supplements that can help. But I swear this is the longest awakening. I'm going on like 6 years. Every year things get a little bit better though. My body symptoms have become increasingly more pleasant in the past 2 years or so. I often feel orgasmic chills from sharing a pleasant conversation with someone. Bliss from moving energy around my body, up through my root, and around the microcosmic orbit. The bliss happens so often that I desire very little for sex at this point. It just seems like 5 seconds of pleasure when I can meditate to states like that seems rather pointless. But I still desire a companion of sorts. Another thing I've learned over the years is the reversal of sexual ejaculation. Essentially, I've learned via willpower to draw ejaculation back into my body as opposed to releasing. It has caused me to look much younger than my years. I often get carded at bars even though, I'm 32.

The thing was I didn't attempt this. It just happened. It was spontaneous. My best guess is I was at such a high spiritual level that I became highly in tune with the Universal Spirit. I get mad at God for bringing this on me. I felt happier before any of this happened. I think it's one some folks pray for which is direct experience with the divine. But the responsibility and hardships it has brought me have been great. I relate to almost no one in my day to day lives. I'm kept going by reading about Old Testament prophets and their biographies and stories of hardships. I cling to the saddest verses in Psalms praying for an end to this.

I think you are right though, perhaps I need to find a guru to help me along. Jana only has limited time. If I could find one in my area to get together with. For once, I would like someone to just show me what to do. What it is I should be doing. I've spent so much of this time figuring it out on my own. I think it has severely stunted my rebirth process. The thing is there are very few people to draw from. I'm stuck doing things like reading Gopi Krishna's biography. Or more recently some writings of Pramhansa Yogananda.

Regardless, thank you for being more understanding in your last post. I realize I was young for this to happen but I did not seek it. It found me unfortunately. Now this is my lot. Perhaps another year or two working if that no longer is working for me I would still be young enough to join the trappists.


It's sad I relate to this verse more than any other I've found:

14 Cursed be the day wherein I was born: let not the day wherein my mother bare me be blessed.
15 Cursed be the man who brought tidings to my father, saying, A man child is born unto thee; making him very glad.
16 And let that man be as the cities which the Lord overthrew, and repented not: and let him hear the cry in the morning, and the shouting at noontide;
17 Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me.
18 Wherefore came I forth out of the womb to see labour and sorrow, that my days should be consumed with shame?

 

[Inquisitor]

Spoiler

Thank you for the lighter and more friendly reply. It is appreciated. I found the Lee Sannella book if you'd like to check it out for free online:
http://www.kundaliniawakeningsystems1.com/downloads/kundalini-psychosis-or-transcendence.pdf

Well, as far as I gather the story with Gopi Krishna goes sort of similar to my experiences. He was younger and led a disciplined lifestyle. All of a sudden one day he had an intense mystical experience similar to a psychosis or a hallucination. Ultimately, he got through it but it was after years of hardships. Kundalini had all but been forgotten around his time of awakening. In his book it states:

"Lacking the guiding hand of a master, it is Gopi Krishna's fate to be thrown from one despair into another, hectic​

ups-and-downs, the daily bread of this sensational experience. Like Faust, Na Ro Pa and many others, he finds a​

solution several times in his life only at the point of death. Even commonplace events take on an enormous character​

and lead him into depressions and dangers almost to the point of ruination. His own analysis of that situation is that the​

awakened Kundalini went up into the Pingala instead of into the Sushumna where it rightfully belongs. Where does all​

this lead him? To constant light-awareness, shimmering halo-consciousness but interrupted repeatedly by years of​

relapse and illness."

From here:
http://www.kundaliniawakeningsystem...tionary-energy-in-man_gopi-krishna_(89pg).pdf

That's how it was with me. I had never been at such a high level spiritually in my life. I had been practicing extreme asceticism. Accompanying my strict lifestyle and diet (ate completely raw uncooked fruits and veggies only), I added many hours of study of sacred texts. This was mostly Christian both the traditional Bible but I had become increasingly more interested in Gnostic texts a I went onward. Then one day it hit me like a ton of bricks. I was in my room musing over experience and catalysts for change in life. That took me on a wild trip. The last hallucination I saw was a voice saying show me you can see so I entered a state of gnosis or intense focus in my third eye. There I could see this image on my hospital room in lights on the wall: https://www.google.com/search?q=flower+of+life&biw=1280&bih=595&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=f4doVdSJF5agyAT7l4HADQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#imgrc=AFZKsDQ2kEHvkM%253A%3Bkov9cWVu5m7t-M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi.ytimg.com%252Fvi%252F_pt-5LLP6dM%252Fhqdefault.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253D_pt-5LLP6dM%3B480%3B360

I did not know it was the flower of life at the time. During the process all my intuition told me I was entering a rebirth process. It was very intense. And about a day or two of visions took me years to reconcile to myself. After the experience I tried to make sense of it to no avail. I found vague references to essentially being born again in Christian literature but nothing that really helped me in the here and now. That's when I turned to this eastern concept of Kundalini because the descriptions mirrored mine. Regardless, it's been a very difficult road for me. I often have been put on antipsychotics, which slow me down enough to function but I feel dead inside. This time though, I will stick with what my doctors asked of me. I found a very understanding one this time and he said in another year I can go unmedicated again, which is my ultimate wish. This is what I want because I suspect the drugs interfere with the rebirth process.

You are right that I probably need a guru. I've looked into many things. As you clearly stated and were surprisingly right in your assessment. Functioning in the world has become a complete drag to me. I've been told I'm hard to talk to, very little excites me any more. I feel on an island alone with only God to communicate. I'm taking a new job shortly. And if I can not deal with it my plans is to convert to be a trappist monk and live out the rest of my years in solitude and meditation doing manual labor and devotions. I feel deep inside that would make me happy.

Unfortunately, I do have desires for a consort. But my dreams are just not there anymore. I guess maybe desires? I use to dream of settling down with the right girl and raising a family. I use to dream of making the next big invention. But those have all left me. It's like this kundalini process conditions you almost. It conditions a lot of the world out of you I mean. I pray for the day when I can consciously leave here as I feel I have very little left to accomplish.

It kind of hurt my feelings when you criticized Jana Dixon. Her writings have been very instrumental in helping me find my way. Just her practice skills alone. Additionally, she has always been open to helping me on a personal level with appropriate activities, diet, and supplements that can help. But I swear this is the longest awakening. I'm going on like 6 years. Every year things get a little bit better though. My body symptoms have become increasingly more pleasant in the past 2 years or so. I often feel orgasmic chills from sharing a pleasant conversation with someone. Bliss from moving energy around my body, up through my root, and around the microcosmic orbit. The bliss happens so often that I desire very little for sex at this point. It just seems like 5 seconds of pleasure when I can meditate to states like that seems rather pointless. But I still desire a companion of sorts. Another thing I've learned over the years is the reversal of sexual ejaculation. Essentially, I've learned via willpower to draw ejaculation back into my body as opposed to releasing. It has caused me to look much younger than my years. I often get carded at bars even though, I'm 32.

The thing was I didn't attempt this. It just happened. It was spontaneous. My best guess is I was at such a high spiritual level that I became highly in tune with the Universal Spirit. I get mad at God for bringing this on me. I felt happier before any of this happened. I think it's one some folks pray for which is direct experience with the divine. But the responsibility and hardships it has brought me have been great. I relate to almost no one in my day to day lives. I'm kept going by reading about Old Testament prophets and their biographies and stories of hardships. I cling to the saddest verses in Psalms praying for an end to this.

I think you are right though, perhaps I need to find a guru to help me along. Jana only has limited time. If I could find one in my area to get together with. For once, I would like someone to just show me what to do. What it is I should be doing. I've spent so much of this time figuring it out on my own. I think it has severely stunted my rebirth process. The thing is there are very few people to draw from. I'm stuck doing things like reading Gopi Krishna's biography. Or more recently some writings of Pramhansa Yogananda.

Regardless, thank you for being more understanding in your last post. I realize I was young for this to happen but I did not seek it. It found me unfortunately. Now this is my lot. Perhaps another year or two working if that no longer is working for me I would still be young enough to join the trappists.


It's sad I relate to this verse more than any other I've found:

14 Cursed be the day wherein I was born: let not the day wherein my mother bare me be blessed.
15 Cursed be the man who brought tidings to my father, saying, A man child is born unto thee; making him very glad.
16 And let that man be as the cities which the Lord overthrew, and repented not: and let him hear the cry in the morning, and the shouting at noontide;
17 Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me.
18 Wherefore came I forth out of the womb to see labour and sorrow, that my days should be consumed with shame?

Yeah, looking back my first email may have been a bit harsh, so I'm sorry about that. Part of my anger stems from my frustration with having grown up in a country (USA) that is so culturally vacuous. What I mean by that, is that there is very little accumulated societal wisdom. In India for example, there are the 4 Stages of Life. This kind of thing gives people a big picture/long-term view of what they should aim for. Likewise, I consult with an Indian Ayurvedic physician who has a BAMS/MD in Ayurveda (training takes 8+years) and has been practicing in India and the US for over 20 years. Her suggestions along with my own reading/understanding of Ayurveda have helped me enormously and continue to be a very positive influence.

Ayurveda, unlike western medicine, is thousands of years old and based exclusively on empirical observation. Billions of people over thousands of years have used Ayurveda. It's tried-and-true. It's already gone through every fad imaginable. The truth is, nature is the ulimate dictatorship. There is the right way to nourish and care for our bodies, and all the other ways are just wrong. The trick is to find that correct path; to investigate and experiment with what works and what doesn't. Ayurveda imo, is truly the best guide. The amount of time and effort that anyone will have to spend trying to find the one best way of caring for themselves will be drastically reduced if they make a sincere effort to apply the principles and recommendations of Ayurveda in their own lives. Again, though, the guidance of an experienced practitioner is essential. Btw, I just asked my Ayurvedic physician what she thought of meditation, and she told me that 45 minutes/day of meditation is the upper limit. Also, she gave me some ideas for how to balance myself out physiologically by thinking about a joyful memory that happened during the day and internalizing that. It's helped me to kind of let go a little bit and calm down, be less stressed out and less of a control freak...FWIW good luck. I remember I went through a stage when I too wanted to become a trappist monk. My sex drive was very low from meditating so much. Now being a monk is much less appealing because I feel I have so much to live for. So much to learn and investigate. So much to do and so little time. I think as long as I maximize my own self-development and experience life to the fullest, I will have accomplished what I need to accomplish in this life and will have done right by myself and others. The only trick is to limit the accumulation of negative karma so your life doesn't suck the next time around.

 

[somebodiesfool]

Yeah, looking back my first email may have been a bit harsh, so I'm sorry about that. Part of my anger stems from my frustration with having grown up in a country (USA) that is so culturally vacuous. What I mean by that, is that there is very little accumulated societal wisdom. In India for example, there are the 4 Stages of Life. This kind of thing gives people a big picture/long-term view of what they should aim for. Likewise, I consult with an Indian Ayurvedic physician who has a BAMS/MD in Ayurveda (training takes 8+years) and has been practicing in India and the US for over 20 years. Her suggestions along with my own reading/understanding of Ayurveda have helped me enormously and continue to be a very positive influence.

Well, I wouldn't disagree with your assessment. I'm much more adept at Christian studies. I tend to agree with you that the west has all sorts of things wrong. When I sit in Christian church I feel like it's been specially tailored to a pre schooler. Just the teachings are so basic and lack any spirituality. Worst yet the Catholic church tries to relate inner teachings to the Church itself and nothing to do with human energy centers, enlightenment or the Spirit of God dwelling in you. Not that long ago I sat in a service and this particular reading came up for the week. It was Paul's relation to the body being a temple for the Holy Spirit:

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Somehow, this "priest" tried to relate this teaching to the church and that the Church somehow held the Spirit in it. :Boggle: There's nothing about caring for your body. There's nothing about Biblical dietary law, which is vast and complex. I literally feel like I'm worshipping with little infants. I wish there was a hotter church. Everyone is so lukewarm. That's what I feel this Revelations verse speaks of:

15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

I feel they are the group of people that is spoken of by ancient prophets as a people who likes to hear "soft" things. They don't ever want to meditate on the tough verses. Even the services are tailored to soft things. Always focusing on the positive and never examining things that really make us take a hard look at ourselves. I believe the verse is here:

9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the Lord:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.


But I think you would see some relationships between eastern energy centers and some teachings in the Bible. For instance, one 19th century prophet drew relationships between energy centers and the Book of Revelations:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce10.html

It's a very interesting interpretation. I like his take on things a great deal. I find wisdom where I can I suppose.


Perhaps you gave me an idea though. I could maybe see a doctor specializing in Ayurveda. Perhaps they could give me some ideas to balance my mental state. practiced yoga 3-4 hours a day before this depression hit me. So, I know what I need to do to feel better. Perhaps there are some herbs and stuff though, that could help me get started again. I had a series of very depressing things happen to me. Really to me depression is that ones deep desires are not fulfilled. It's my own fault for ever desiring those things. One of those things was a relationship from this girl from my past who I cherished. Another thing dealt with a very large sum of money that could of gotten me freedom from the world. Unfortunately, neither worked out and I am left picking up the pieces of my shattered desire. I know once I get over this I will continue on my path of yoga, meditation, and kung fu and hopefully heal from these intense disappointments.

 

[Inquisitor]

Well, I wouldn't disagree with your assessment. I'm much more adept at Christian studies. I tend to agree with you that the west has all sorts of things wrong. When I sit in Christian church I feel like it's been specially tailored to a pre schooler. Just the teachings are so basic and lack any spirituality. Worst yet the Catholic church tries to relate inner teachings to the Church itself and nothing to do with human energy centers, enlightenment or the Spirit of God dwelling in you.

Yup. The job of being a priest doesn't leave much room for hardcore contemplation. The Church is mostly considered with survival at this point.

Perhaps you gave me an idea though. I could maybe see a doctor specializing in Ayurveda. Perhaps they could give me some ideas to balance my mental state. practiced yoga 3-4 hours a day before this depression hit me. So, I know what I need to do to feel better.

That bold part concerns me greatly. I would say that doing that much yoga every day is not safe. I have a yoga teacher. She recommends 15-30 minutes a day. That's a lot if you do it properly. That may have contributed to your depression/feelings of not having anything worldly to live for. Or...who knows...maybe you really are born to be a renunciate. I guess the key thing would be to know if becoming a monk would really bring you happiness and joy or if it's just an escapist fantasy. For me I ended up realizing it was the latter...but everyone's different. I do think this is an either/or kind of thing: either one becomes a monk and practices intensively like you seem to be doing now, or one leads a normal life and practices a little bit to stay sane/grounded. But rigorous spiritual practice while living the life of a householder is unhealthy to say the least.

 

[somebodiesfool]

Yup. The job of being a priest doesn't leave much room for hardcore contemplation. The Church is mostly considered with survival at this point.




That bold part concerns me greatly. I would say that doing that much yoga every day is not safe. I have a yoga teacher. She recommends 15-30 minutes a day. That's a lot if you do it properly. That may have contributed to your depression/feelings of not having anything worldly to live for. Or...who knows...maybe you really are born to be a renunciate. I guess the key thing would be to know if becoming a monk would really bring you happiness and joy or if it's just an escapist fantasy. For me I ended up realizing it was the latter...but everyone's different. I do think this is an either/or kind of thing: either one becomes a monk and practices intensively like you seem to be doing now, or one leads a normal life and practices a little bit to stay sane/grounded. But rigorous spiritual practice while living the life of a householder is unhealthy to say the least.

Hmm I can see your concern. I also practice qi gong. I've read of the dreaded qi gong psychosis from over practice. Well, I've already had psychosis multiple times. I feel like a lot of these practices are catered to awakened people.

I've also considered more extreme measures as I'm comfortable in other states.
http://m.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/m...cinogen_may_create_lasting_personality_change

Running a little research project on myself soon. :x

 

[cyberdream]

I seriously advice you all to listen to this .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbPqkNl4_-g

 

[Reign]

I think you maybe referring to the "flow", as its so called...it's experienced by patients with bipolar and schizophrenia and it very closely relates to what we would call a burst of creativity.
Look it up.

 

[onesteptwostep]

Well, I wouldn't disagree with your assessment. I'm much more adept at Christian studies. I tend to agree with you that the west has all sorts of things wrong. When I sit in Christian church I feel like it's been specially tailored to a pre schooler. Just the teachings are so basic and lack any spirituality. Worst yet the Catholic church tries to relate inner teachings to the Church itself and nothing to do with human energy centers, enlightenment or the Spirit of God dwelling in you. Not that long ago I sat in a service and this particular reading came up for the week. It was Paul's relation to the body being a temple for the Holy Spirit:

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Somehow, this "priest" tried to relate this teaching to the church and that the Church somehow held the Spirit in it. :Boggle: There's nothing about caring for your body. There's nothing about Biblical dietary law, which is vast and complex. I literally feel like I'm worshipping with little infants. I wish there was a hotter church. Everyone is so lukewarm. That's what I feel this Revelations verse speaks of:

Christianity is not really about receiving sermons just in church and being happy about it, it's more about practice in your own daily life. Bible reading, prayer, coming to terms with guilt and weakness, and so forth. The 'church' on Sunday part is there so you can have fellowship and dine together in communion in the family/body of Christ. To a certain extent it's just a social group in someways, but uh.. I'd rather not get into that.

What you seem to seek is intellectual sophistication, not spirituality. You can get that stuff by watching TED videos or whatever, not church..

I'm not sure what you mean by Biblical dietary law, Peter was envisioned to not make a fuss of "clean" and "unclean" animals (in Acts). o_O

 

[somebodiesfool]

Christianity is not really about receiving sermons just in church and being happy about it, it's more about practice in your own daily life. Bible reading, prayer, coming to terms with guilt and weakness, and so forth. The 'church' on Sunday part is there so you can have fellowship and dine together in communion in the family/body of Christ. To a certain extent it's just a social group in someways, but uh.. I'd rather not get into that.

What you seem to seek is intellectual sophistication, not spirituality. You can get that stuff by watching TED videos or whatever, not church..

I'm not sure what you mean by Biblical dietary law, Peter was envisioned to not make a fuss of "clean" and "unclean" animals (in Acts). o_O

Point taken on the church. I just wish it was a little more advanced in spiritual training. It just seems very basic when I go.

As far as dietary law I think you are mistaken. I hardly think Peter flippantly ate whatever he pleased. If you look to that particular verse:

14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

Well, as far as dietary law it is advised that the law of the prophets was not destroyed as in the Old Testament. There is the advice of Daniel 1 to eat only vegetables and water for health as opposed to meat and wine. There is the Torah meat restrictions as it generally rules out bottom feeders and pork. Pork is a very dirty meat...full of worms. A pig has no way to release toxins. If it gets bit by a venomous snake the venom is never expelled but rather stored in the fat. There is the aprocypha Essene Gospel of Peace which lay out very detailed dietary plans and schedules based on the harvest and seasons.

I'm coming from a healthy standpoint though. I eat meat on occasion and sometimes pork type products but I believe these are guidelines for health not necessarily you are committing a terrible sin if you partake in some of the restricted foods. That's what I meant.

 

[crippli]

I eat meat on occasion and sometimes pork type products but I believe these are guidelines for health not necessarily you are committing a terrible sin if you partake in some of the restricted foods. That's what I meant.

What's wrong with using resent research in dietary? When one look into history it's all mushy. I mean. The more one look into something. The more one find out. Was the planet flat? Doesn't look that to me now. But it would have a few thousands years ago, or it could have, probably would have.

 

[onesteptwostep]

I'm coming from a healthy standpoint though. I eat meat on occasion and sometimes pork type products but I believe these are guidelines for health not necessarily you are committing a terrible sin if you partake in some of the restricted foods. That's what I meant.

Oh okay. I just spent like 10 minutes writing up on how your exegesis was bad, but nevermind lol

But imo the Bible shouldn't really be meant for things other than spirituality. You get weird strands of Christianity when you begin to espouse in such things like that from the Bible, history shows.

The point I'm making with Peter (but I think you already know) is that the early Christians in the first century bickered over whether Gentiles had to follow dietary laws outlined by the traditional laws prescribed by Moses. Peter(?) and Paul clearly states that it is faith that pools together the body of believers, not a partition in Jewish law. It doesn't matter whether you eat pork or not, it is by the belief in/grace of God that you are saved through Christ, not legalism. Peter probably didn't eat pork anyway since he was of Jewish culture, though he might have changed habits after that vision. But I have a funny feeling you already know this.

On Daniel in the OT, Daniel disfavored eating meat and wine because it was a betrayal of God to partake in a meal offered to Babylonian deities, not because meat and wine are bad for you or something. It's more about conscious related to culture, ritual, and symbolism, not advice on dieting habits.

I don't think when Christ said the things in the Law were not to be abolished meant we should follow them, I think he meant (if you want to apply what he said to us) think about the motive behind the creation of the laws and to fulfill that motive.

I never heard about pork fat absorbing venom, that's interesting. Imo I think it's better to put all this under the term other than 'dietary law'; it's sort of misleading... well, my opinion

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

I think you maybe referring to the "flow", as its so called...it's experienced by patients with bipolar and schizophrenia and it very closely relates to what we would call a burst of creativity.
Look it up.

You are mistaking flow for mania. Flow is a very desirable state of elevated focus and enjoyment of the task.

At no point in my deep thought process do I feel like I'm losing my mind, or do I have any 'spiritual' moments. I'm just sort of phased out in my own mind, working on something.

Yes, true, I basically described understanding. However, the actually image that I'm trying to convey is something a little bigger than that.

Of course, that was just figurative. It's hard not to go abstract when trying to paint this picture. Also, I'm not going through any kind of spiritual awareness /mental disorder right now, so that adds in the challenge and confusion of describing it.

I think many so called gurus and prophets would readily call the state you described as 'enlightened', even more so when it rings true or shows something true about the world.
They would attempt to call any uncommon state of mind 'transcendent' in order to convince themselves of their legitimacy of their reign over people listening the teachings.

 

[StevenM]

I think many so called gurus and prophets would readily call the state you described as 'enlightened', even more so when it rings true or shows something true about the world.
They would attempt to call any uncommon state of mind 'transcendent' in order to convince themselves of their legitimacy of their reign over people listening the teachings.

Since my last post, I've thought about it more, and changed my mind to something similar to what you said.

It's merely a brief state of something like delirium. For some reason, the mind 'passes' and allows some nonsensical thoughts, so they seem undeniably true. A feeling of knowing (like the feeling of familiarity in deja-vu), envelops around it, and they make perfect sense, even in it's fantastic ridiculousness.

That is until the feeling passes. Then I try to explain what it is, and of course, it doesn't seem quite right at all. I try digging further to find why I made it into a revelation. What made it so convincing?

It's a good thing they don't happen often (at least lately). It's a challenge trying to think a way out of a mind that plays tricks.

 

[Reign]

Add science.

 

[Reign]

I was just too dumb to notice.

 

[onesteptwostep]

[deleted some stuff because of poor wording]

awakening can not be defined in terms of what it is or how it will make a person act, it can only be defined by what has fallen away.

the sense of separation. i would say separation becomes transparent and does therefore no longer constitute credible separation. but remains as a sense of self.

defining awakening is impossible, like butterflies wouldn't agree about what they are, because they can't see themselves in a mirror, nor dissect themselves, nor are they all the same race of butterfly, but they sure know they ain't this cocoon that has fallen to the ground.

in the case of pathology, you are typically looking at a rope, who feels extremely itchy within it's own skin or maybe cocoon.

ken wilber describes what a pre-trans fallacy is.

it is many things, an abstract concept. the above is one example. something that is early (pre) in development looks like something that comes later (trans) in development and is confused by superficial outside observers who don't understand development.

ken wilber gives maybe the best maps of awakening AND pathologies and everything else. but his writing is not as illustrative of the territory, as is the writing of carl jung, ken never makes one understand WHY a particular psyche would be compelled to retreat into the emptiness of "I am none of this shit", or why another psyche would be ready to open up towards the fullness of "everything is of the same spirit, as is this self called me". ken only maps out HOW our structure supports such changes of perspective.

(more poor wording, but i can't seem to help it today )

Bit of a stretch back into the topic but I felt like I had to reply:

On Ken Wilber: Ken Wilber is a taoist at heart, someone who's trying to frame philosophical taoism in the western mindset. It would seem like he's hijacking the normal sense of the word 'awakening' for his own ideal of spiritual awareness. I don't think Awakening can be defined by what has fallen away and coming to terms with it like you say- there's already another word for that state of awareness: Depravity. You know, john calvin and his tulip thingy? Awakening is more in the realm of monotheism, not atheism. Enlightenment is more of a correct definition, imo.

 

[Belcher]

Bit of a stretch back into the topic but I felt like I had to reply:

On Ken Wilber: Ken Wilber is a taoist at heart, someone who's trying to frame philosophical taoism in the western mindset. It would seem like he's hijacking the normal sense of the word 'awakening' for his own ideal of spiritual awareness. I don't think Awakening can be defined by what has fallen away and coming to terms with it like you say- there's already another word for that state of awareness: Depravity. You know, john calvin and his tulip thingy? Awakening is more in the realm of monotheism, not atheism. Enlightenment is more of a correct definition, imo.
geek gadgets gifts

Yeah i agree with your point here .You have a valid point.