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MBTI Segregated Schools

rainman312

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I was hesitant to use the word "segragated", due to the fact that most people negatively associate it with racism, but still, what do you think about this? I feel there would be definite pros (specialized learning style for each type) and cons (lack of intertype communication), though you may not have to limit it to one-type-one-school. You could have several similar types in a single school. What do you guys think about this?
 

Rook

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

First off, developmental issues are raised.
Children, who are still mapping out their place in the world and usually have little concept of their deeper personalities at younger ages, are at times typed incorrectly.
So from the onset there will be students incorrectly classed into the different sections.
This may have profound effects on their future, as modern day school is utilised as the preparation of young ape-lings for the adult world.

Secondly, purpose.
In the end, what will this system aim to achieve?
If the different groups have divergent modes of education, how does one justify the validity of one over the other to parents and children?
How does the segregation of types aid society and the average student?


Imo, public eduction as a whole has failed to be inclusive of all types, focusing rather on the needs of the average child than that of the gifted minority.
But I don't see this system replacing or improving the situation.
It will probably turn into a chaotic mess of pseudo-science and inadequate bureaucracy.
 

rainman312

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

I see where you're coming from. Perhaps if the schools remained unsegregated until, say, sophomore year in high school, this would be better so the students would be put in the correct school. It don't see it replacing the current system, and would probably do a poor job of educating certain people, so it really isn't any better than our current system, which does the same thing in a different way. Perhaps the current school system with work and classes that was tailored to the students' types would be better, for example, giving the INTP students less pointless homework and allow them to work on independent projects that they enjoyed for credit instead.
 

peoplesuck

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

this kind of exists at the college level right..? an ESF in engineering is probably rare :king-twitter:
 

Rook

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

I see where you're coming from. Perhaps if the schools remained unsegregated until, say, sophomore year in high school, this would be better so the students would be put in the correct school.


This system will be less damaging, but does one now segregate universities and other tertiary institutions?
Does one one segregate the workplace?
If not, then doing so in high school has little importance or effect as all end up in the same places doing the the same things anyway.

Perhaps the current school system with work and classes that was tailored to the students' types would be better, for example, giving the INTP students less pointless homework and allow them to work on independent projects that they enjoyed for credit instead.

Many problems will arise here from teachers, parents and children.
Will parents and educators willingly allow children to develop strong independence as introverts?
I doubt it.

Will people allow some children to have less homework based simply on the results of a personality test, thus creating unequal and inconsistent standards amongst the different groups of children?
Also highly doubtful.

These ideas may be better suited to smaller private institutes of education, I don't think it will be publicly employable with the current zeitgeist of humanity.
 

rainman312

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

I think it would have an impact, seeing as some INTPs fail their classes in school despite being some of the most intelligent ones in the school. Giving them an equal amount of work that was more suited to their learning style would give them an oppurtunity to succeed, as opposed to the current system, which is strongly biased towards ESTJs and other similar types. I say this for several reasons:

  • Es find it far easier to participate in extra-curricular clubs and other social EC events, which help them get into college
  • Ss are less distractable and find it easier to stay on task
  • Ts are more rational (though not always completely rational) than their F counterparts, in general
  • Js have an obvious advantage in this society, which I probably don't have to explain
 

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

Personally, I think we should just herd all esxjs into gas chambers.
 

Rook

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

@Rainman:

Your system can and most likely will be advantageous, especially to intps.

But whether it's better or not, the status quo is unlikely to change.
There is a reason that the system is biased towards certain types: These types make up the majority of students, and thus by tailoring the system to cover their needs one ensures that a greater number of children will be better educated, which aids the society as a whole for now it will have more meat to fuel the machines.

More secretaries, more delivery men and more janitors.
Who cares about one lonely soul who has a passion for the sciences or music if they can rather churn out a batch of semi-trained adults ready for the workforce?


@Adaire: We kill them with fire.
 

rainman312

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

@Rook:
I also highly doubt they'll change the school system even within my lifetime, this was all just purely speculative.

@Adaire:
Gas chambers have too many problems. They waste precious slave labor, they're too expensive and inefficient, and they kill people too quickly. I say the best way is to use them as slaves to build the hardware for an INTP hivemind, and just never feed them, letting them die of starvation.:cthulhu:
 

onesteptwostep

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

this kind of exists at the college level right..? an ESF in engineering is probably rare :king-twitter:

^ I think this. There are party schools, academic schools, engineering schools, technical schools and so on. I think some people just realize the social element of school sooner though and are indifferent to it, but want an environment where that social obstacle doesn't hinder their educational process and development.

I was hesitant to use the word "segragated", due to the fact that most people negatively associate it with racism, but still, what do you think about this? I feel there would be definite pros (specialized learning style for each type) and cons (lack of intertype communication), though you may not have to limit it to one-type-one-school. You could have several similar types in a single school. What do you guys think about this?
I just think it depends on what your philosophy of education is.
 

Alias

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

I'd like it if the schools were segregated by the Keirsey Temperaments. That would mean more NTs to be around and less ESXJs and other people to deal with. But this system would be near impossible to implement, especially in larger countries.
 

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

wouldn't more people then become immature versions of their type? i think interaction with other types is good for honing your less dominant functions, plus it gives a more realistic picture of proportions of each type in society
 

rainman312

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

wouldn't more people then become immature versions of their type? i think interaction with other types is good for honing your less dominant functions, plus it gives a more realistic picture of proportions of each type in society

I agree. It would certainly cause some problems once the types got out of the segregated schools and into society, where they would have to interact with each other for the first time, which may end up badly.
 

Architect

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

Bad idea. My INTP son benefits from going to school with other types, as much as it annoys him.

What is needed is a MBTI based educational system. Give each kid a program tailored to them, both supporting their strengths and working on their weaknesses. This should be managed via a computer teaching system, which frees the teacher to work with the children as individuals.
 

scorpiomover

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

Bad idea. My INTP son benefits from going to school with other types, as much as it annoys him.

What is needed is a MBTI based educational system. Give each kid a program tailored to them, both supporting their strengths and working on their weaknesses. This should be managed via a computer teaching system, which frees the teacher to work with the children as individuals.
Yes, yes, yes.

Bertrand Russell also had an excellent essay on education. His advice was ignored too.

Governments and schools are probably aware of the problems, since teachers have been complaining about schools for the past 40 years. But there are practical problems with doing the sensible thing. Some people want to know where the money is coming from for this extra. Some people will say it's unscientific and should not be used. Some will want to know how schools will cope with needing 16 times the students, to make the system work. Some will say that it's immoral and opressive to categorise people thusly. Some people will love it, because they can then drop the students with the "wrong MBTI types".

I still agree with it, though. My ENTJ teacher got me through maths. I have a good understanding of ENTJs and ENFJs, and they have a good understanding of me. They seem to know how to bring the best out of me.
 

Architect

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

Governments and schools are probably aware of the problems, since teachers have been complaining about schools for the past 40 years.

At least rudimentary MBTI is generally know in the system, the difficulties are as you mention (money, etc), mainly it's a quasi-governmental organization which has three major players; the administration, the parents and the industry (textbook producers). Reform is difficult because these three are locked, and given the governmental involvement innovation is nearly impossible.

Not that people haven't tried. "Gifted and Talented" is one such, but ends up being a mob scene of S types predominantly who want the best for their kids, and are run by intuitives. We have one locally, a probable INFP principle and her (again probable) ESFP or ISFP husband teacher. The S mommies mob the place. I think having N in the inferior makes it irresistible. In practice it ends up being a prep school, with little gifted or talented to recommend it (the terms are terrible too).

Anyhow, for my kid the education should be on letting him run with the concepts, without having to grind through exercises (but with an emphasis that he does have to learn how to do them adequately. Then his PE class would ideally probably spank him into actually exercising. All administered and monitored by a computer system, which would ensure that he and the ESTJ next to him (who gets lots of memorization, rules to follow and exercises) have equivalent education.

The educational system, as noted by Kersey in PUM, is a tug of war between the SJ and the NF. Presently we're in the NF swing of the cycle.
 

rainman312

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True. This is a far better idea than segregation. Still, it could certainly raise some major issues for students who are incorrectly typed, which happens quite frequently. I have a friend who thought he was an INTP because an online test told him so. It took me a long time to convince him that he had almost no INTP traits and was one of the most extraverted people in the school.
 

Architect

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True. This is a far better idea than segregation. Still, it could certainly raise some major issues for students who are incorrectly typed

That's what the teacher is for, and also to work on personal issues such as kids that have a bad home life and so forth. Also it doesn't necessarily have to be precise, just putting the kids in SJ/SP/NT/NF buckets would do a lot, and that should be pretty easy.

In fact I'd run it that way, first figure out which Archetype bucket they fall in, then over time work out the exact type.
 

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how do you handle people wanting into a diff type schools?
 

Architect

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how do you handle people wanting into a diff type schools?

The system would be same as now - you go to the school in your district (or you go out of district by special request). Kids of different types all sit in the same class as they do now. The computer systems manages them working on differentiated programs. Imagine a room full of kids, all taking a different, but essentially equivalent test, tailored for them.
 

redbaron

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Yeah and make children grow up being borderline incapable of dealing with people different to them. Already enough of that as is.
 

peoplesuck

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oh, i thought this was entire schools segregated,:facepalm: not the class work
 

TheManBeyond

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It is wrong from the begining since SJs specially sfjs are hated so they will start thinking about suicide and decide they are in fact infps and people like you will actually believe it.
I mean the whole idea is so wrong at many levels like are you also going to deprive certain types from certain goals just because they are out of their stereotypes?. Even if you do the typing right (which is almost impossible imo specially with kids) the whole system will end up collapsing.
 

Pyropyro

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We should segregate by zodiac instead.

It's probably a bad idea to have people segregate at a young age. They need to be safely exposed to as much culture as possible to avoid ignorance and the tendency to stereotype in the future
 

onesteptwostep

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^ omg then we'll get something like an Asian Hogwarts! Twelve houses instead of four!
 

scorpiomover

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The educational system, as noted by Kersey in PUM, is a tug of war between the SJ and the NF. Presently we're in the NF swing of the cycle.
If you are referring to the tug-of-war between the conservatives and the liberals, then I can see what you're on about. But you're not likely to see an SJ going out looking for fights for dominance. Too much willingness to toe the line, accept the will of authority, and accept the status quo.

Not that people haven't tried. "Gifted and Talented" is one such, but ends up being a mob scene of S types predominantly who want the best for their kids, and are run by intuitives. We have one locally, a probable INFP principle and her (again probable) ESFP or ISFP husband teacher. The S mommies mob the place. I think having N in the inferior makes it irresistible. In practice it ends up being a prep school, with little gifted or talented to recommend it (the terms are terrible too).
Yes and no. We have the same situation here. But the "mommies" are endlessly creative in how to get their kids into a better school, so much, that you'd laugh if I called them Sensors. They are also very, very pushy, way more pushy than you'd ever expect of a P, and way more pushy on a regular basis. They're always strategising as well. It really smacks of INxJ-ness.

SJs respect authority, and respect practical limitations. They distrust change. But they accept that systems aren't perfect, and tend to be more mistrustful of the unknown, and so are apt to accept the status quo. So they aren't a problem.

It is incredibly difficult to deal with introverted intuitives in this scope, because they don't trust the status quo, don't trust in direct evidence, and don't trust others. They'll read a study that says that people who listen to Mozart have smarter kids, and burn all your rock albums, just so that you don't have anything else to listen to other than Mozart. They often don't remember that when you only had Mozart or nothing, you chose nothing, because that would mean that their clever and more efficient intuitions weren't all that clever or efficient after all.

At least rudimentary MBTI is generally know in the system, the difficulties are as you mention (money, etc), mainly it's a quasi-governmental organization which has three major players; the administration, the parents and the industry (textbook producers). Reform is difficult because these three are locked, and given the governmental involvement innovation is nearly impossible.
Someone has to work out the logistics, while still keeping up with existing educational requirements, i.e. a national curriculum (everyone is graded by the same exams/coursework), feminism (women do really badly at exam-graded qualifications, and really well when the entire grade is 100% coursework), practical issues of geographical availability of schools, teachers, classes and children, and those who want to use MBTI as a weapon (My son is an INTJ. INTJs are smart and work hard. My INTJ son should get a good place at university. Your son is an INTP. He lives in the clouds and is lazy. Your INTP son is only good for pumping gas. Any school resources should be prioritised for my INTJ son over your INTP son).

Besides, it will only help, if we are talking about types of people, and not types of self-perceptions, which is all MBTI amounts to at the moment. Sure, we can give them all mental puzzles, and figure out objectively, which ones are which, by the style of thinking they demonstrate. But then many of the NTs and NFs here will turn out to be STJs and SFJs, and many of the SJs and SPs will turn out to be NTs and NFs.

Anyhow, for my kid the education should be on letting him run with the concepts, without having to grind through exercises (but with an emphasis that he does have to learn how to do them adequately. Then his PE class would ideally probably spank him into actually exercising. All administered and monitored by a computer system, which would ensure that he and the ESTJ next to him (who gets lots of memorization, rules to follow and exercises) have equivalent education.
Actually, my maths teacher brought out the best in me, by making us do lots and lots of exercises proving as much as possible from first principles. His intent was that by the time we came to the exams, we'd have answered so many different types of exam questions, that we would easily be able to do well, and by learning to prove things from first principles, it meant that we'd always have a way to solve the problem, even if we forgot the standard methods. It worked. We did extremely well in our exams.

It also meant that when it came to answering questions on maths, my Ne had been developed extremely well, and my Ti was trained to be able to solve problems solidly, where there was no proof. I really had a Ti-Ne framework that I could manipulate at will, and was easily capable of producing extremely solid answers.

I've found a similar process going on with me when it comes to IT. First, I learn the basics. Then I play, screw up, screw up, screw up, until I learn 20 screw ups. Then I know what things make it go wrong, and then I know just what to do to make things work.

I am, at this moment, inclined to think that this learning process is extremely useful to Ti-Ne.
 

Architect

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If you are referring to the tug-of-war between the conservatives and the liberals, then I can see what you're on about. But you're not likely to see an SJ going out looking for fights for dominance. Too much willingness to toe the line, accept the will of authority, and accept the status quo.

Are you kidding? No the original reference was specifically SJ-NF (go read PUM) and from my experience I'd agree. That does correspond to conservative-liberal too, but your definition of SJ's is textbook. In reality they fight for what they want, both overtly and covertly.

Yes and no. We have the same situation here. But the "mommies" are endlessly creative in how to get their kids into a better school, so much, that you'd laugh if I called them Sensors.

Creativity isn't exclusive to intuitives, by far. N's and S's express different types of creativity.

They are also very, very pushy, way more pushy than you'd ever expect of a P, and way more pushy on a regular basis. They're always strategising as well. It really smacks of INxJ-ness.

I have a ENFP friend (self typed and I agree) who gets these schools for her kids too. She just goes about it differently than the stereotypical pushy mom approach.

SJs respect authority, and respect practical limitations. They distrust change. But they accept that systems aren't perfect, and tend to be more mistrustful of the unknown, and so are apt to accept the status quo. So they aren't a problem.

Again it sounds textbook. In practice I see plenty of SJ's of various forms running around on this one.
 

scorpiomover

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I have a ENFP friend (self typed and I agree) who gets these schools for her kids too. She just goes about it differently than the stereotypical pushy mom approach.
She's an ENFP, the "cheerleader" type. Even if she did it herself, if you complained about it, she'd say that she doesn't do it either.
Are you kidding? No the original reference was specifically SJ-NF (go read PUM) and from my experience I'd agree. That does correspond to conservative-liberal too, but your definition of SJ's is textbook. In reality they fight for what they want, both overtly and covertly.
They do, just not that way. They're differently creative to NJs and NPs.
Creativity isn't exclusive to intuitives, by far. N's and S's express different types of creativity.
I know. I keep pointing this out.
Again it sounds textbook.
It may SOUND textbook to you. But I'm going by observations of how people are in reality. My attitude, is that if the theory doesn't fit the facts, then either people misunderstand the theory, or the whole theory is rubbish. Upon observation, I find enough that shows the theory true, to think that it's more likely the former, mainly because they read only textbooks, and don't realise that the reality of anything is almost always very different to how it seems in the textbook.
In practice I see plenty of SJ's of various forms running around on this one.
SJs are running around on this issue, usually saying that their children shouldn't grumble at not getting into a good school, as they went to an ordinary school, and it didn't harm them.
 

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Everyone seems very quick say this won't work. I think it's a great idea. And I wouldn't worry about stunting social interactions. We already have a segregation of sorts with religious schools, home schools, gifted schools, rich schools, poor schools, rural schools, city schools, suburban schools, boarding schools, international schools, boys schools, girls schools, and many more. None of these children seem to have any inherent disadvantage in life.

Also, consider the goal of school. Is it to make sure students can navigate the chaos of society, or is it to teach them a certain curriculum. There is an element of the former, but you don't need school for that. The only reason for going to school is to learn the curriculum. If temperament sorting and segregation aids that goal, I say go for it.

We already have incredible segregation based on age. With a typed school, you could look at integrating classes of people who are normally segregated. Why not combine math and PE? With INTPs that might actually work. You can either measure the entire perimeter of the grounds, or use math to figure out a better way. Some types may not respond well to that type of challenge, but other might. An SJ class may delight in awards and recognition for a job well done, while NFs might respond very well to group discussions out under a maple tree.

Whatever problems might arise surely can't be worse than the problems that arise from forcing students with vastly different learning styles to conform to one common lesson.
 

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Re: MBTI Segragated Schools

As a teacher, here's my take:

1) MBTI should definitely be taught at a young age to everyone...like sex ed. Would not create educational tracks around it though...kids need to have room to experiment with lots of different things, but if that MBTI seed has been planted early, they'll always have something to fall back on...

Also Ayurvedic doshic types should be taught at the same time...maybe change the nomenclature to "somatotyping" but our science-centric society believes everyone is biologically pretty much identical...genetic differences are obviously much-discussed, but in clinical studies, the individual is just treated as a single data point. And that's the achilles heel of the system. Everyone is fundamentally different, and we need to learn to perceive those differences at an early age, so we know how to live more balanced lives.

2) "flipped" classrooms are the way to go. Computer-based lecture system with animations, interactive quizzes, etc. and teachers have more time to focus on students individually. Students can actually do "hands-on" work in class as opposed to listening to the teacher drone on...
 
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