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Mathematical Psychology

Melllvar

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I've had the idea for a long time that the field of psychology would be much better off if it was mathematically formalized the way the physical sciences are. As of now it is essentially qualitative, which leaves room for all kinds of subjective bias. Beyond that theories often lack falsifiability and predictive capability, which is to say that they are not really scientific. Psychology needs its Keplers, its Galileos, its Newtons to come along and get the ball rolling with a strong mathematical model that can be built on. That would essentially raise the whole field above pseudo-science to actual science.


Original Idea:
I'm not sure how to explain this idea. I shall simply describe it as it developed in my head.

I was thinking about vector spaces and quantum mechanics. With vector spaces the idea was to use them as psychological models by associating each measurable psychological quality with an axis in the basis. Then for any given person we could measure each of these psychological qualities and represent them as vectors in the space. Math on the vectors (either basic operations or functions) then allows us to find relationships between these qualities and other qualities, or to look at larger effects caused by groups of them together (essentially the sum of several vectors).

With quantum mechanics I noticed that a quantitative psychological model should really yield probability distributions for what is likely to be occurring in a given person, the same way the square of the wavefunction describes the probability of measuring a certain value of a physical observable. Hence I wondered if the mathematics behind quantum mechanics could similarly be adapted to a model of human psychology.


For those that don't know what I'm talking about with vector spaces/QM:

-Vector spaces: Just imagine any kind of 2-d or 3-d coordinate system. For purposes of discussion these are vector spaces. Now imagine in a 3-d coordinate system using each axis to measure a different psychological quality. Now imagine doing this but with a coordinate system of any number of dimensions (thousands, millions, etc.).

-Quantum mechanics: When you do the same experiment many times you don't necessarily get the same result, even under the same conditions. The likelihood of measuring a given result is given a distribution of probabilities among all the possible results. Similarly, people placed in a given situation will all react or think differently, however some reactions/thoughts are more likely than others. It also forms a probability distribution.


Problems:
The thing about vector spaces is that they're only one type of algebraic structure that you could use for such a thing, and not necessarily a good choice. I essentially picked them at random because I wasn't very familiar with other structures when I first had this idea. Why a vector space? Why not a ring, monoid, group, field, etc? Why even limit it to a known structure? Algebraic structures consist of a set of elements and some number of operators defined on those elements satisfying given conditions. Before we can answer what type of algebraic structure might work best to develop a quantitative psychological model we have to answer:

1) What are the elements we are interested in (e.g. the psychological attributes/qualities/etc.)?

2) What are meaningful operations on these elements?

The simplest would be to simply use numbers as elements, for example probability distributions (i.e. numbers) as mentioned above - this basically reduces the algebra to normal arithmetic. We don't *have* to do this though, for example Plutchik's wheel of emotions can be modeled as a set of elements with a binary operation on them (I suppose also as a mapping between a Cartesian product and another set, but who cares). The point is that this level of abstraction allows us to not even necessarily need to measure things numerically and to deal with psychological concepts themselves.

The other issue is with the quantum mechanics approach. The "mathematics of quantum mechanics" is essentially an equation that relates the probability distribution (more specifically the wavefunction) and the energy levels (more specifically the eigenvalues) of what we are measuring. First issue, while there is a psychological equivalent in probability distrubutions, there is not in energy levels, or at least I cannot think of one. Secondly, we still have to find a meaningful equation to relate these things, so in a sense we're back to square one as far as trying to find quantitative relationships between psychological variables.


Development:
In any case, I've come to the following general idea of how quantitative psychological modeling might work:

1) Determine what it is we wish to predict from what measurable quantities.
Some abstract examples:
a) Thoughts from behavior.
b) Future behavior from past behavior.
c) Future thoughts from past thoughts.
d) Behavior from thoughts.
2) Define meaningful operations on these elements.

3) Find a meaningful mapping between the elements being measured and the elements being predicted, using the operations defined. (i.e. find equations relating important variables)

4) Profit.


Conclusion:

Ok, so I realize I haven't actually found anything close to a useful quantitative psychological model yet. Sorry. What I think I have done is broken this problem down to the most abstract level. Obviously *simple* equations do not exist to relate things like probabilities of given thoughts or behaviors, which is why I think mathematical formalization of the subject might see more progress if people stepped outside of the idea of statistics and real numbers.

The grandiose idea is that such a model, once developed, could be used in a clinical setting to make predictions reliably, rather than based on subjective bias, as the system is fully scientific: testable, falsifiable, and predictive. This would most likely take a lot of information gathering to begin to be able to make accurate predictions, and hence may not be particularly useful unless every relevant aspect of someone's life was monitored (intrusive). That's kind of irrelevant though: the Navier-Stokes equations may be too hard to solve for many real systems, it doesn't make them useless overall (this seems like a good analogy). A quantitative, fully scientific psychological model would be a big step forward for the whole field, IMO.

Anyhow, this is the current state of my thoughts on it. There is a lot more I could say on it, for example about MBTI and vector spaces (or other structures). I'll save that for another post (edit: no I won't, it's at the bottom). Does anyone else have any ideas though? Things I'm particularly curious about:

1) What are the fundamental elements/qualities of psychological analysis (i.e. the elements for my mathematical system)?

2) Is this an (in)appropriate way to develop such a mathematical formalization?

3) What other sorts of approaches or mathematical tools might be considered?

4) Is there some fundamental reason that this will not work? I'm sure some would argue that behavior and thought transcend quantitative analysis, however I'd rather not just take that as an axiom. I'm not into mysticism.


For all the people who undoubtedly know more about math/modeling/etc. than I do, please do tear me down if I'm talking out of my ass about any of this or am misunderstanding anything.

* After I wrote all this it occurred to me that I should have considered Bayesian networks as well. I don't have time for that now, and I haven't really thought about them in this context. Just throwing the idea out there.


------------------------------------------

MBTI and Vector Spaces:
Ok fuck it, the thing alluded to above about MBTI and vector spaces:

MBTI essentially reduces all the measured variables (what you answer on the questionnaire) to four axes: I vs. E, N vs. S, T vs. F, P vs. J. This then groups people into sixteen simple categories. This is probably good for people, but in other terms it's just diluting the actual data.

Consider instead that each question on our MBTI questionnaire is it's own axis in a orthogonal basis spanning the vector space. Each subset of the questions then spans another subspace of that vector space. So for example, all the questions dealing with T vs. F-ness create a T vs. F subspace. The system can be degenerated to MBTI simply by summing all the vectors in each of the four subspaces, yielding four new orthogonal vectors spanning another subspace. Obviously your overall MBTI type is given by a vector in the space, the components of which are your scores on any given question.

This approach seems superior for several reasons: first it doesn't simplify people into sixteen discrete types, but views them as a fluid spectrum of positions in an n-dimensional space. Second, it allows for other mathematical and psychological relationships to be found. In a fluid spectrum it's meaningless to just look at S/N or T/F traits and such, you can look at any particular vectors in the spectrum you want. Every subspace is a different axis in itself to be examined. Thirdly, there may be more complicated mathematical relationships to be found there, like meaningful functions on the vectors or other interpretations due to the mathematical representation of a traditionally non-mathematical thing.

As I said above though, vectors don't seem special in any particular way, they're just the most familiar idea that occurred to me. Something else would most likely work better.


Obligatory xkcd:
physicists.png
 

psion

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So you still need doctors to decide where someone fits in the vector space? Isn't that still introducing error? Even if you have a test like in MBTI, they can be extremely misleading. I suppose you could base it not on outward traits but on brain shape and functionality, but the problem with that is that two people can have almost the exact same brain average brain activity pattern that is indicative of schizophrenia, but one will show severe symptoms and one will not (studied most predominantly within close family and twins especially).

I don't think we have an accurate enough method for measuring or collecting the initial values to put into the mathematical model right now. I do not doubt it will happen eventually though. I'd put my money on neuroscience over psychology for the field that pioneers it though.
 

Vrecknidj

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I think that some folks in neurology are hoping that psychology is eventually replaced by brain science and that all of our understanding of ourselves can someday be turned into quantifiable neurological data.

I don't think this will happen, but, I think that's what they're hoping for.

Consider Churchland's work on the field:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliminative_materialism

Dave
 

Melllvar

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So you still need doctors to decide where someone fits in the vector space?

Well you'd have to take measurements to calculate other values about the system your studying. It would also be valuable as a theoretical framework though. Sometimes finding a successful mathematical explanation leads to conceptual understanding and predictions as well (e.g. Planck's constant).

psion said:
Isn't that still introducing error? Even if you have a test like in MBTI, they can be extremely misleading.

I'd think errors would be introduced through simplifications between theory and reality, or inaccuracies in measurement, like with any other kind of experimental science. But yeah, some kinds of potential 'measurements' (in this sense) would be more objective than others. MBTI isn't really very objective, it just asks you how you're viewing yourself in the moment. Much like IQ tests testing how well you do on the test, MBTI tests test how you answered the questions. More objective would be stuff like physiological characteristics (heart rate, eye movement, brain activity, whatever). I was also thinking of behavioral patterns.

This kind of goes back to needing to know what fundamental attributes we're trying to interrelate here. You could have different theories modeling things at different levels of objectivity. This is why I left it kind of vague, I'm not even sure of that much (the first step, "what are the sets of elements we're dealing with?").

I suppose for a scientific theory it would be good to require traits be 'objectively measurable', i.e. not based on subjective descriptions. In the case of MBTI, instead of asking a person how they react/feel/think/etc. under certain circumstances, it could measure it and calculate based on that (I suppose this would be a behavior -> thought type theory).

psion said:
I suppose you could base it not on outward traits but on brain shape and functionality, but the problem with that is that two people can have almost the exact same brain average brain activity pattern that is indicative of schizophrenia, but one will show severe symptoms and one will not (studied most predominantly within close family and twins especially).

Yeah, I don't know, sorry. If I'd solved the problem already I'd have posted a solution instead of more questions. I can't even guarantee such a theory exists, but it doesn't seem a reason not to look.

In the above case, something different is obviously going on there. Maybe look at environmental triggers functioning with brain activity. Or more complicated things going on with the neurological activity, transitions, symmetries, rates of change, any combination of. It would seem like you should again be able to look at combinations of them more effectively mathematically anyway, by defining each thing as a mathematical object and defining different operations on it. Then see if what you've developed fits the experimental data well.

psion said:
I don't think we have an accurate enough method for measuring or collecting the initial values to put into the mathematical model right now. I do not doubt it will happen eventually though. I'd put my money on neuroscience over psychology for the field that pioneers it though.

Some problems in particular might lend themselves better to a physical/chemical/physiological explanation (e.g. causes of fear responses, maybe). I'd think one use of a mathematical theory in this subject might be to predict large-scale psychological responses from more basic/fundamental chemical-psychological mechanisms (e.g. reaction based on fear response), the same way the above wheel of emotions builds more complex ones from simpler ones. But on a larger scale. Also like I think I said above, it could have value just a theoretical model, even if it wasn't able to be applied practically (much like string theory or the Higgs boson).

On another level, it's just fun to try and spot mathematical relationships in nature.
 

Black Rose

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Could this mapping system(?) be used to tell us with the right data which brain areas have the electrical resistance necessarily for seen behaviors.

Also to have the neurological correlated in geometrical terms would require data-mining.

IQ has biological correlates, so should your psychological evaluation system make new predictions and if so on what.
 

Melllvar

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Sorry, it seems I never responded to this.

Could this mapping system(?) be used to tell us with the right data which brain areas have the electrical resistance necessarily for seen behaviors.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't really know what I'm talking about here, nor did I have a specific idea for how this would work or how it could be useful. It doesn't seem totally impossible, but in the case of what I described above (with abstract algebra/vector spaces and such) would seem to require that behaviors 'combine' according to whatever mathematical operations in the same way that electrical signals do... meaning that whatever solutions to the operations on behaviors correlate with solutions to the same sort of operations on brain activity. Also other assumptions, like that a given behavior necessarily has a single associated type of brain activity or that they can be combined/operated on in some sort of meaningful way.

Animekitty said:
Also to have the neurological correlated in geometrical terms would require data-mining.

Yeah, I think so, probably. It would most likely have to be calibrated for the individual, or at least fine-tuned in terms of whatever 'values' (in the mathematical sense) are associated with neurological behaviors.

Animekitty said:
IQ has biological correlates, so should your psychological evaluation system make new predictions and if so on what.

Well, yeah, the whole point is to have objective, predictive value in the model. On what though I don't know, like I said this is more just an idea I had, not something that's even remotely developed yet. I'm not even sure what sort of task (in psychology/neurology) it should be applied to or what sort of mathematical system would best fit that. Answering the first question would seemingly come before answering the second.


ZombieAtomico said:
...sigh...

?
 

scorpiomover

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I've had the idea for a long time that the field of psychology would be much better off if it was mathematically formalized the way the physical sciences are. As of now it is essentially qualitative, which leaves room for all kinds of subjective bias. Beyond that theories often lack falsifiability and predictive capability, which is to say that they are not really scientific. Psychology needs its Keplers, its Galileos, its Newtons to come along and get the ball rolling with a strong mathematical model that can be built on. That would essentially raise the whole field above pseudo-science to actual science.
Yup. It would.

I was going to point out a few things here. Then I thought to look it up on Wikipedia. Turns out that mathematics has been applied to psychology since the 19th Century:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_psychology

You are right that psychologists generally seem to not use mathematics in their diagnosis of psychological disorders, or in their treatment plans. Mathematics seems to have fallen out of favour, in favour of experimental science. So I think it's a sign of the times.

There are hundreds, possibly thousands of different mathematical models, covering everything from population growth to solving aerodynamic equations with thousands of factors. I doubt that a new mathematical model is needed. Probably need to only compare what we know, to the different models out there, to see if one fits, and probably one will. However, even if none fit, or none fit will enough for our purposes, we can always make another model. After all, inventing a new model to fit a current problem, is something mathematicians have been doing for millennia.

There are a number of ways to model psychological processes, in terms of neural pathway selection, or in terms of behaviour, or in terms of transactional analysis. In each type of analysis, you simply need to lay out the basic things that everyone agrees happens, abstract them, and then build from there. If a model exists already, use that. If not, then build one from scratch, and see what theorems you can develop from there.

For all the people who undoubtedly know more about math/modeling/etc. than I do, please do tear me down if I'm talking out of my ass about any of this or am misunderstanding anything.
It's a great idea. The tricky parts of mathematics are that you need to be incredibly exacting, incredibly persistent, and unbelievably open-minded, to discover a theorem of importance. It just takes a heck of a lot of work.

I'd offer you a model right now, if I thought it was mathematically feasible. To do that, would require putting a lot of work into it, which will take a lot of time. So it might take me a bit of time, before I can throw you a bone that mathematicians would be happy with.

I suppose you could base it not on outward traits but on brain shape and functionality,
Interesting enough, you reminded me of Cauchy's Residue Theorem. The theorem states that any function that operates on anything that passes for a repeating loop, such as a continuous system like the mind, cancels itself out, except for the values of the functions at the singularities, the points which are non-differentiable, i.e. that cannot be reached from the rest of the area by a continuous line. The brain has a lot of folds in it, and each fold will probably yield a singularity for itself. So there are probably a lot of neurons that would count as singularities.

but one will show severe symptoms and one will not (studied most predominantly within close family and twins especially).
There are at least 2 ways in which Cauchy's Residue Theorem could apply. First, if the shape of the brains are different, then so the singularities would also be different, leading to different values of a function of schizophrenia. Second, even if the shapes of the brains are the same, if the functions of schizophrenia due to a particular neuron would be dependent on other factors, that would be different for different subjects, then again, the total of the residues would be different for different subjects.

I don't think we have an accurate enough method for measuring or collecting the initial values to put into the mathematical model right now.
Not a problem. A lot of mathematics came from problems where we didn't have the data we needed to solve the problem, such as Bayesian networks.
 
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