Martial arts - N or S?

[Enne]

I was just musing as to whether people with strong Se/Si have an advantage over those with strong Ne/Ni when sparring. It's not any discipline in particular - just in general. Do you think that anticipating and reacting to your opponent / environment is something best facilitated by S or N types?

I can see several advantages to both the introverted and extroverted flavors of these functions:

Si: would have a strong grasp of katas (for a discipline that relies heavily on them)

Se: would be able to use their environment to their utmost advantage, and would probably be the best at getting out of submission holds

Ne: would be an opponent that was difficult to suprise - even with a weak Ni, as the fight wore on, an Ne strong individual (particularly one with good Ti regarding the discipline), would be able to 'facilitate' an Ni-like victory

Ni: would be able to see the inherent weakness of an opponent (or an opponent's style) immediately.


Do you agree with my 'analysis'? Disagree? Would prowess be increased with a strong Ti (of the discipline), or Te (to strengthen reactions). What do you think each function's Achille's heel would be?

 

[Ogion]

Do you do any Martial Art?
Honestly i doubt that you can equate it like this with types, that just seems overly simplistic. And also this is about body movement, about Balance and the like. MBTI and Jungs ideas are about thought processes and patterns.

I do Aikido (well not for very long, one and a half years, with little hours per week) and you aren't actually thinking while doing it. I mean yea, during learning a move you have to first think how you will move, but the outcome will be that you do the movements just like you would go up a staircase or ecit a car. It becomes just one more intuitive (and i don't mean the Jungian cognitive Intuition with this), reflexive movement that happens without you thinking about it.

Ogion

 

[Decaf]

lol, I also have a couple years of Aikido experience and agree with Ogion's statement. I believe that most of what happens during a fight is unconscious. If you try to fight with your conscious mind, you will probably lose.

Nobutada: Please forgive, too many mind.
Nathan Algren: Too many mind?
Nobutada: Hai. Mind the sword, mind the people watch, mind the enemy, too many mind... [pause] No mind.

Obviously learning must be conscious or your movements may as well be random, but motor-skills and instinct are what will save you. More amygdala, less frontal lobe.

 

[Android]

The point of repetitively doing the same motion over and over, and practice in general, is to allow your body to act and react without thinking (as well as a couple other things).

I've studied and practiced martial arts for most of my life.. everything from Taekwando, Kajukenbo, Kenpo Karate, Kickboxing, to Tai Chi and MMA. I've met and sparred with all different types of people in the gyms, and have not noticed a particular type of person that specifically excels at the physical aspects of MA. Intellectual types do tend to put a stronger importance on the "Mind, Body, Spirit" aspect of many martial arts though.

edit: I'm going to do a quick study on MMA I think.. see if I can find or make an informed guess on the types of some of the greater tactical fighters like Fedor, Couture, and St. Pierre. All of them strike me as introverts from past knowledge. The rest I'm not sure about.. J's seem pretty likely as well though.

 

[Enne]

Do you do any Martial Art?
Honestly i doubt that you can equate it like this with types, that just seems overly simplistic. And also this is about body movement, about Balance and the like. MBTI and Jungs ideas are about thought processes and patterns.

No, just musin'.

lol, I also have a couple years of Aikido experience and agree with Ogion's statement. I believe that most of what happens during a fight is unconscious. If you try to fight with your conscious mind, you will probably lose.

Nobutada: Please forgive, too many mind.
Nathan Algren: Too many mind?
Nobutada: Hai. Mind the sword, mind the people watch, mind the enemy, too many mind... [pause] No mind.

Obviously learning must be conscious or your movements may as well be random, but motor-skills and instinct are what will save you. More amygdala, less frontal lobe.

Interesting. I have often wondered just how much of the unconscious mind we put to work. How has 'letting go' helped you in other areas?

I would like to know (out of curiosity) how a person would fight with an unconscious mind. Does this mean that the outcome of bouts can be predicted by skill levels and mental states? What if two people are engaged in roughly the same 'flow'? What does that look like?

 

[Android]

What do you mean by flow?

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

I would think martial arts would be a F and P thing. Turning your feeling of a perception into action.

 

[Decaf]

I saw this the other day on Hulu. I don't care for the narration, but the analysis is pretty valuable.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/122686/fight-science-pilot

 

[Ogion]

"Sorry, currently our video library can only be streamed from within the United States" Hulu.. :/

Could you give a quick summary in one or two sentences what this is about?

Ogion

 

[Decaf]

If you've ever watched mythbusters, its a little like that. They took ballistics gel and crash test dummies to determine the force exerted by different kinds of attacks given by masters of different martial arts. The most powerful punch came in at half a ton from a boxer. The most powerful kick came from the knee of a Muay Thai champion and managed to compress the chest a full 2 inches at the point of impact.

They also had a segment about a ninjitsu practioner. The first test was the "Touch of Death". It was basically a hammer fist applied over the heart area, and from the feedback provided by the dummy it did appear to be a mortal blow (on a crash test dummy scale they rate soft tissue damage from 0.0 to 1.0. This strike rated at 0.8VC). The dummy barely moved, but motion capture showed the area directly under his strike was compressed by more than 2 inches.

The same fighter had to do a training routine on plum flower poles.

They put pressure sensing pads in his tabis (shoes) to determine his balance similarly to how they do it with the Wii Balance Board. Even while moving from poles of different height his "sway" was nearly 0 using a number of different parts of his foot as weight bearing.

After that they looked at weapons. Here's where I found the narration to be the most tiresome, but it was still somewhat interesting. Got to see some scrimmaging with three-section staffs.


EDIT: I found a video of the same ninjitsu expert demoing the hammerfist

Spoiler

Taking a hammerfist to the chest from Glen Levy

 

[jachian]

Actually contrary to the other posts I think you have a point Enne.

Learning technique, form and developing the physique are one thing.......... but my observation is that certain types tend to do better than others.

Matching up opponents with a similar level of skill and technique, P types generally do better than J types I think.
I have done some martial arts and this seems to be the case.
Some other types like istps who are really interested, tend to hone their technique to master level much quicker than others.
As far as the S/N thing am not exactly sure........

I was however, surprised to learn that many people even of higher skill were afraid to come up against me because I came across as erratic, a bit unpredictable, a bit unorthodox.

 

[bovinity]

Hmm, most people you see in MMA are pretty much archetypical XSTP's. I don't see any reason why a well developed Ne wouldn't help in martial arts though, but I can't see J types really being good at any complex martial arts form.

(my post isn't wild speculation, at all...)

 

[Firehazard159]

This is semi-related, but not directly.

I read on one (possibly more) of the INTP descriptions that we can become great athletes due to our mental capabilities, which, is fitting in a martial art or a physical sport of any sort. Especially in something like MMA, where it's like a mental strategy game combined with physical prowess (though not raw strength, things like endurance, control, balance, etc, are far more important than being able to just drop heavy hits)

I don't think it really has to do with S or N at all, for what skill levels can be achieved.

Is it more attractive for an S or N though? That could be something else entirely to pursue.

 

[Ogion]

Oh ok, thanks Decaf.

(Sorry, don't have much time right now)
Ogion

 

[Decaf]

Oh, here you go Ogion. I found a clip from that episode that talks about the death punch.

YouTube- fight science - Ninjitsu

 

[Geminii]

I did some Tai Chi and liked it. There was something about the movements which was very IN - I could retreat mostly into myself and drift while letting my body flow through the sequence.

There were also T options - I found myself idly calculating interpolations between moves and was able to adjust the splining on the fly to balance definition vs smoothness. As a result, I could sort of 'cheat' and come up with a very smooth, flowing, cool-looking motion. I ended up being used for various demos in front of classes and as someone the newbies could copy. I always had the nagging feeling, though, that although it might look good, maybe I wasn't really doing it properly.

 

[Gorgrim]

Hmm, most people you see in MMA are pretty much archetypical XSTP's. I don't see any reason why a well developed Ne wouldn't help in martial arts though, but I can't see J types really being good at any complex martial arts form.

(my post isn't wild speculation, at all...)

A friend of mine is ESTP and in his young years did karate, i concur, ESTP's seem to be good at physical routines etc....

 

[Philosophyking87]

Do you do any Martial Art?
Honestly i doubt that you can equate it like this with types, that just seems overly simplistic. And also this is about body movement, about Balance and the like. MBTI and Jungs ideas are about thought processes and patterns.

I do Aikido (well not for very long, one and a half years, with little hours per week) and you aren't actually thinking while doing it. I mean yea, during learning a move you have to first think how you will move, but the outcome will be that you do the movements just like you would go up a staircase or ecit a car. It becomes just one more intuitive (and i don't mean the Jungian cognitive Intuition with this), reflexive movement that happens without you thinking about it.

Ogion

The difference between sensing and intuition involves whether or not an individual tends to focus more on an inner world of ideas or the outer world of objects. Clearly, knowing this, a sensing preference would prefer martial arts, as body movements involve the external world. Although, I think the OP is right in showing how even an intuitive personality might actually have some advantages when it comes to martial arts. It just seems to be a very sensing-oriented activity. Period.

 

[Philosophyking87]

Actually contrary to the other posts I think you have a point Enne.

Learning technique, form and developing the physique are one thing.......... but my observation is that certain types tend to do better than others.

Matching up opponents with a similar level of skill and technique, P types generally do better than J types I think.
I have done some martial arts and this seems to be the case.
Some other types like istps who are really interested, tend to hone their technique to master level much quicker than others.
As far as the S/N thing am not exactly sure........

I was however, surprised to learn that many people even of higher skill were afraid to come up against me because I came across as erratic, a bit unpredictable, a bit unorthodox.

Agreed. I think Enne does have a point or two with his/her post.
Sensing types (especially ISTPs) tend to be really interested in martial arts, and they definitely enjoy mastering techniques and whatnot.

Hence, Bruce Lee (contrary to what morons who don't understand the MBTI properly think).

 

[Philosophyking87]

A friend of mine is ESTP and in his young years did karate, i concur, ESTP's seem to be good at physical routines etc....

Yeah, I have a friend who is ESTP who greatly enjoys physical activities. I also have another ENTP friend who enjoys martial arts (and he's very conceptual, so he probably enjoys the mental aspects of it). And I have an ISTP friend who loves wielding weapons and martial arts in general. Good stuff.

 

[Ghyuk]

That Fight science video is garbage. When testing punches none of the Martial Artist were of the same size and weight. Obviously the boxer hit the hardest because he just happens to be the biggest guy on there. Anyway I think Martial Arts can be both an N and S thing. Just different styles. I'll use my sport as an example.

In boxing there is a lot of different boxing styles, but what many don't realize is your personality and disposition determines your style rather than attributes. An Extrovert would tend to be more offensive while an Introvert defensive. As far as the N/S I am not sure but I do think in terms of Martial Arts it requires a great deal of both. Renzo Gracie said it best
"Fighting is the best thing a man can do for his soul"