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Mainstream psychology ignores valid Marxist deductions about human nature

BurnedOut

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Applying a Marxist mode of analysis to social harmony (although first talked about by Nietzche in Genealogy of Morality albeit ignoring the economic factor), is coexistence is the best we can get to? True acceptance seems to be utterly difficult because throughout my life, there have been prescriptions about how one economic class behaves differently from one another and hence it is extremely difficult to get rid of these biases even for the most enlightened and understanding person. Psychology effectively ignores that in the pop-psy culture.

How are we supposed to get rid of the economic biases? If I act nice to a person from a lower economic class, the receiver will perceive that as a favour more than a genuine ignorance of their economic class. On the other hand, if the said person acts nice to me, I will consider it as an affront because their systems of morality are somehow inferior to mine.
 

Black Rose

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How does one recognize what class one is in?

I never had any real class consciousness.

Sometimes I buy people sandwiches and soda.

But the only people I know are mentally ill people.

My roommates have a borderline personality disorder and paranoid personality disorder.

My highest level on the big 5 is conscientiousness.

People are just dirty and untidy for no reason. And have no sense of orderliness.
 

Cognisant

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The one and only time I played an MMO was FFXIV: A Realm Reborn
(I think it was that one, I'm not well versed in this stuff)

Anyway it struck me how people behaved in a strictly PVE environment, everyone was either totally focused on self improvement, jolly co-operation with their in-group or actively seeking people to help, and I couldn't help but wonder how awesome it would be if the real world worked like that.

Even in hyper competitive FPS games people often stop playing the game and just goof off together, apparently the desire to kill and dominate is less than the desire to just have fun and coexist.
 

birdsnestfern

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I can only comment on American Social Structure Income per year:

Upper (4%) $200,000 or more - usually old money
Upper Middle $150,000-200,000
Middle (46%) $50,000-199,000 Professional degrees, Dr. Lawyer, Financial Analysts, Engineers, etc.
Lower Middle (18%-$50,000-75,000) 2-4 year degrees, teachers, nurses, police
Working $25,000-50,000 (25% - factories, clerical, restaurants)
Lower $25,000 and below (25% of population) - unskilled home cleaners, migrant workers, dishwashers, shoe shiners, etc).

I actually took several classes in Communism in jr. high, films showing Hitler and Chinese Communism, etc.
Most of it is faded out now, but I do recall Marxism being pretty valid or much more so than most of America is led to believe.

I would ignore class and recognize karma may be real. If you put anyone down, your next life will be to reincarnate into that very thing you put down, women, certain races, whatever, your next life will be to learn what its like in that body and to treat others as yourself. You want to treat everything outside of you as if it IS you.
 

Cognisant

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The strong should not serve the weak.

Is it fair that the business owner sets the terms of employment? Is it fair that the faster person always wins the race? To both I say yes, success is not gruel to be doled out to the needy, success is the consequence of merit.

Equality cannot be mandated, there is no metric by which one is more deserving to win a race other than by the speed at which they run it, because by any other metric it is not a race.

It is not the employer's fault that the employee must compete in a labor market, it is not the employer's fault that the employee cannot negotiate a better rate. It is not the employer's responsibility to pay them a living wage, the onus should be on them to improve their negotiating position.

To that end joining a union is valid, as valid trying to bust a union, it's not who is right that matters but rather the competition and the merit of the competitors.

May the better man win.
 

scorpiomover

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Applying a Marxist mode of analysis to social harmony (although first talked about by Nietzche in Genealogy of Morality albeit ignoring the economic factor), is coexistence is the best we can get to?
Marxist analysis is analysing history in terms of material dialecticism, that is, viewing history in terms of a unity of opposites of material factors, and thereby learning from history by observing when balances of opposites of material factors were more or less optimal, and thus understanding when things were better for everyone, and when they were not. In some periods in history, even co-existence was lacking. In other periods of history, there was much greater balance than co-existence. So no, co-existence is not the best we can do, and even co-existence is not the minimum.

True acceptance seems to be utterly difficult because throughout my life, there have been prescriptions about how one economic class behaves differently from one another and hence it is extremely difficult to get rid of these biases even for the most enlightened and understanding person.
Your experiences would be the experiences of one person. We can't expect to understand all of history by looking at the experiences of one person alone out of millions, and the experiences of maybe 30-40 years out of thousands of years of human history.

So your analysis is not Marxist.

Psychology effectively ignores that in the pop-psy culture.
Psychologists are liberal academics, i.e. middle-class and left-wing. As Nietzsche pointed out, the Will to Truth supports their Will to Power, i.e. their conclusions reflect whatever is good for them. Being in the middle, they seek to claim they are superior to those who are in classes poorer than them, and those who are in classes richer than them, which isn't really all that feasible. Being left-wing, they seek to claim morality by changing everything, which isn't sustainable. So their viewpoints are self-affirming at the cost of whatever is going to achieve sustainable happiness for the majority of humans.

Of course they don't want to take economic class and Marxist analysis into account, as that would reflect badly on them.

How are we supposed to get rid of the economic biases?
By using Marxist analysis. Marx advocated looking at material factors, because they are objective, and so cannot be subject to interpretation. Marx advocated dialecticism, because dialecticism doesn't favour one side over the other. Marx advocated looking at history this way, because history has plenty of data to analyse and thus there is plenty of data from which to draw solid objective unbiased conclusions.

If I act nice to a person from a lower economic class, the receiver will perceive that as a favour more than a genuine ignorance of their economic class.
The lower economic class is likely to look at your class' morality as inferior to theirs. They only look at you as doing them a favour, in terms of getting you on their side, so they can become richer and thus gain the same power as you, removing your class difference.

On the other hand, if the said person acts nice to me, I will consider it as an affront because their systems of morality are somehow inferior to mine.
So you believe that the upper classes have a superior morality to you, and thus believe your own morality is inferior? Surely not.

Both of your claims do not stand up to scrutiny via Marxist analysis, or the proletariat would have never risen up and overthrown the aristocracy, as the aristocracy was in a higher economic class to the proletariat, and would thus have perceived the aristocracy as being both far more moral to them, and doing them a favour by not exterminating the entire proletariat in concentration camps.
 

Old Things

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You can either have some people who are rich and some people who are poor (Capitalism) or you can have very few people who are rich and very many people who are poor (communism).

I'd be in the lower class as far as @birdsnestfern graph shows. And given I live off social security, I have all my needs met plus some to buy music or whatever when I have money and that's really all you need.

Socialism and its variants are where the real story is (at least in the US). We are much more like a socialist country since Biden took over (not to say anything good about Trump here). One of the primary ways Biden thinks about money is that you have to go into debt to generate wealth. And Communism is much worse than the way Biden does things.

I get that India has a caste system, but capitalism would fix this as the people who generate the most wealth could generate the most wealth as opposed to you being locked in a socioeconomic class based on a religion.
 

Black Rose

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One of the primary ways Biden thinks about money is that you have to go into debt to generate wealth.

Under Trump

  • U.S. debt to gdp ratio for 2020 was 126.39%, a 25.49% increase from 2019.
  • U.S. debt to gdp ratio for 2019 was 100.90%, a 1.75% increase from 2018.
  • U.S. debt to gdp ratio for 2018 was 99.15%, a 1.37% increase from 2017.
  • U.S. debt to gdp ratio for 2017 was 97.77%, a 0.73% decline from 2016.
Under Biden


Less than a 3% increase over two years. (we do not know what happens in the next two years)

united-states-government-debt-to-gdp.png
 

Old Things

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U.S. debt to gdp ratio for 2020 was 126.39%, a 25.49% increase from 2019.

This was because of the stimulus most likely. The thing is, Biden has done the same exact thing.

We probably will not see the consequences of this for a while but the Inflation Act, or whatever it is called that Biden passed is a lose lose situation. You can't print billions of dollars and expect things to work out. Not to mention that yesterday I paid like $3.15/gallon on gas, which says nothing about the price of eggs.
 

Black Rose

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the Inflation Act, or whatever it is called that Biden passed is a lose lose situation. You can't print billions of dollars and expect things to work out.

You are going by the theory that the bill does the opposite of what it is called, but: Source?

Not to mention that yesterday I paid like $3.15/gallon on gas, which says nothing about the price of eggs.

By reducing inflation prices go up? And an increase in inflation makes prices go down?
 

Old Things

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the Inflation Act, or whatever it is called that Biden passed is a lose lose situation. You can't print billions of dollars and expect things to work out.

You are going by the theory that the bill does the opposite of what it is called, but: Source?

Basic economics. It doesn't just pass certain laws--it literally prints money out of nowhere. I am not an economics guy, but even I know that it would not be wise for me to take out a loan with how much money I make. It would cripple me financially for the rest of my life. And now with the banking collapse, maybe Trump and Biden printing money out of nowhere was not such a good idea.

Not to mention that yesterday I paid like $3.15/gallon on gas, which says nothing about the price of eggs.

By reducing inflation prices go up? And an increase in inflation makes prices go down?

I'm paying over a dollar more a gallon since Biden took over. I don't buy eggs, but they have gone through the roof and they are a staple item for many people in the US.
 

Black Rose

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Basic economics. It doesn't just pass certain laws--it literally prints money out of nowhere. I am not an economics guy, but even I know that it would not be wise for me to take out a loan with how much money I make. It would cripple me financially for the rest of my life. And now with the banking collapse, maybe Trump and Biden printing money out of nowhere was not such a good idea.

The gov took out big loans which caused inflation because of a thing called fractional reserve banking. The more loans that happen in the system the more money is created in that system. The federal reserve is supposed to increase interest rates to curb loans between banks. In 2008 they massively decreased interest rates so the banks would make loans to small businesses, but all they did was buy their own stocks back.

As long, as interest rates are low banks, make loans to other banks and not small businesses.

I'm paying over a dollar more a gallon since Biden took over. I don't buy eggs, but they have gone through the roof and they are a staple item for many people in the US.

Like you said it was the stimulus. The massive loans the gov took out and gave to people. This also happened in 2008.

But adjusted for inflation a dollar in 1980 is worth 4 dollars today.

A dollar today buys 1/4 the gas it did 40 years ago.


nMLxF2q.png
 

Old Things

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Old Things

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Black Rose

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Old Things

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Black Rose

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I was never talking about 2008, FWIW.


The U.S. national debt reached the debt ceiling of $31.41 trillion in January 2023.

Intragovernmental holdings (gov owes to itself) totaled more than $6.89 trillion in January 2023.

The public holds over $24.53 trillion of the national debt, as of January 2023.

-

Japan $1.08T

China $870B

United Kingdom $645.8B
 

Old Things

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I'm thankful that China only owns a small part of us rather than a large part of us.
 

scorpiomover

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Basic economics. It doesn't just pass certain laws--it literally prints money out of nowhere. I am not an economics guy, but even I know that it would not be wise for me to take out a loan with how much money I make. It would cripple me financially for the rest of my life. And now with the banking collapse, maybe Trump and Biden printing money out of nowhere was not such a good idea.

The gov took out big loans which caused inflation because of a thing called fractional reserve banking. The more loans that happen in the system the more money is created in that system. The federal reserve is supposed to increase interest rates to curb loans between banks. In 2008 they massively decreased interest rates so the banks would make loans to small businesses, but all they did was buy their own stocks back.

As long, as interest rates are low banks, make loans to other banks and not small businesses.
If interest rates are high, that benefits the lender, but costs the borrower. So banks want to lend money, but small businesses don't want to borrow, because of the high cost of the interest.

If interest rates are low, that benefits the borrower, but costs the lender, as the lender makes a lot less money from each loan. So then small businesses want to borrow, but banks won't want to lend, as they have a low ROI.

So when interest rates are lowered in order to increase loans, that is on the basis that since the banks cannot make a large profit from any one loan, but could make large profits by making lots of loans, the banks would thus loan out more to keep their profits high.

It's the same idea as selling products for cheap, to millions of consumers.

However, that only works when the banks have reason to think that they'll make a decent profit by such a scheme, i.e. when they can expect that the majority of borrowers will pay the capital and the interest back within the term of the loan. That is true of any loan. But the more loans you make, the more chance that one of them will default, and so the greater the chances of a loss of profits. So in such a scheme, you need to be living in a time when 99.99% of borrowers make all of their payments on time, i.e. you need to be living in a time when insolvency and defaulting on loans is almost unheard of.

That used to be the case in the past, because people used to get jobs, marriages and loans, mostly based on their reputation. So you couldn't borrow money until you had built up a decent reputation, and so people were very careful to always keep their word and never welch on their debts, to build up a reputation of being reliable, and especially when it came to paying their debts.

That also meant that if you wanted a loan, you either had to rely on your family's reputation, which meant that your parents and grandparents had to have lived in that country, and built up a reputation that would also mean that you were trusted as part of the family, or you had to spend 20 years in that country to build up a reputation for yourself, before anyone would lend to you.

As a result, small businesses usually were set up either by your family who had lived in the same country for many years, or they would only be set up by someone who immigrated when he was 9, then worked for 20 to 30 years, and only started a small business when he was in his 40s or 50s.

However, people's attitudes changed from the past. In addition, unlike the past, many young people are trying to start small businesses. In addition, many of these people are immigrants, or come from a family with a poor credit history, or live separately from their parents.

The final straw for the banks came in 2008, when over a million new home-owners defaulted on their mortgages. This showed the banks that their employees who had been lending, had been seriously over-optimistic about the ability & commitment of borrowers to pay back their loans, and so they became much more cautious about making new loans.

So the Fed is trying to use a tactic that worked in the past, that has very little likelihood of working nowadays. I doubt that the officers of the Fed are that ignorant to not know that things are different nowadays. But they just don't have any other solutions that would not involve political suicide for Biden et al. So they'd rather lower interest rates, and then blame the banks, to make Biden et al look like the good guy.

Of course, that also happens to work in the favour of anyone who knows that the interest rates will be lowered in advance, such as Biden's friends, because they have information about the future of finance, and so can make a killing in the stock market.

So it kind of works to some people's interest.
 

Daddy

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The strong should not serve the weak.

Is it fair that the business owner sets the terms of employment? Is it fair that the faster person always wins the race? To both I say yes, success is not gruel to be doled out to the needy, success is the consequence of merit.

Equality cannot be mandated, there is no metric by which one is more deserving to win a race other than by the speed at which they run it, because by any other metric it is not a race.

It is not the employer's fault that the employee must compete in a labor market, it is not the employer's fault that the employee cannot negotiate a better rate. It is not the employer's responsibility to pay them a living wage, the onus should be on them to improve their negotiating position.

To that end joining a union is valid, as valid trying to bust a union, it's not who is right that matters but rather the competition and the merit of the competitors.

May the better man win.

This seems a bit too reductionist to me.

There's nothing wrong with people learning the rules of whatever system and doing better than other people. But if the rules of the game aren't fair or people can change them when it suits them, the competition itself is flawed.

When people talk about living wages and being paid fairly, it's usually with the assumption that the rules aren't fair to begin with or that the people at the top collude to keep other people at the bottom. That's basically giving the handicap to the person that's winning so that they always win, rather than give it to the one that's losing to help them so that they can eventually compete without the handicap.

Typically they do this through forcing people to work for their basic needs and nothing more. The only way to win against something like this is to somehow stack the cards so heavily in your favor, that even their handicap won't matter anymore (such as perhaps living in your car to save money or living in a dump or living with 10 people or something similar). And you may think that it's "fair" for the "strong"/"winners" to do this to people, but that's usually what people take offense to. People end up justify that winning means you get your basic needs met, while the 100 losers don't or something stupid like that.

I mean it's important that in a modern day society where things are cheaply mass produced that people shouldn't have to struggle to have basic needs met. Competition outside of that is fine and I fully support it. But this basic moral needs to be met first or it's just pretty self-justifyingly evil.
 

ZenRaiden

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Marx observed a small and obvious fragment of human society, minus few equations, many people have some odd habit of thinking like he pulled a rabbit out of a hat.
In reality Marx Observed reality as it was and wrote it down.

Most things Marx wrote down were true and still hold true.
Like its very hard to disagree with him.
Also many observations tend to have pretty obvious conclusions.

For instance he explained that psychologically people were not invested in what they made ergo the commodity.
People were alienated from their own products and work.
Still holds true today more than ever before.
 
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