Looking for Good Reads on Philosophy

[Valencia]

Hello everyone.

My name is Val and I'm from the US. Right now I'm in High School but I will graduate this year. I'm really interested in Philosophy and thus I thought I may go to college and study this subject.

I really like Nietzsche's books. My two favorites so far are “Beyond Good and Evil” and “Thus Spoke Zarathustra”. I would like to read more of that, from different philosophers to get to know different points of view. I guess you know what I mean.
Also I'm getting more and more interested in the history of Philosophy. So I did some research online and checked out some websites classified adds, but I simply can't decide which book(s) to pick. There are so many for sale.

I thought it's a good idea to ask for advice here. So does anybody knows some good reads on the above topic? What kind of philosophy books are you currently reading. Which ones are your favorites and why?

And if there are some students around, maybe they can can recommend a few essential books for college. That would be great.

So any feedback is greatly appreciated.

Val.

 

[Cognisant]

I'm really interested in Philosophy and thus I thought I may go to college and study this subject.

Why do you want to study philosophy in college?
There's no career in it, so is there something you want to know?

If your planning to study philosophy to put off undertaking the responsibilities of an adult life I suggest taking a gap year to collect your thoughts, read some books, work part-time or casual and argue with people on the internet.

Take some time to think.

 

[Valencia]

Honestly I fell a bit a random. I really like Philosophy and I like to think about life and reality and stuff like that. So I thought this is what I want to do. But I guess you're right. There's no career in it. Or at least it's really tough.
Maybe I should take a year off and take some more time to think. But I'm not sure about my parents. They won't be happy...

 

[Cognisant]

They were happy with you paying for a worthless qualification?

Well actually if you wanted to move to Asia and teach English fluency it would be alright, but not as good as simply learning to teach English.

Anyway is there anything existential you want to talk about?
To answer your original question I recommend Arthur Schopenhauer, a miserable old bastard but very insightful.

 

[TBerg]

Nietzsche is good reading, Julius Evola also. They will either ruin your life or turn you into a conquering hero. What could go wrong?

 

[Auburn]

Honestly I fell a bit a random. I really like Philosophy and I like to think about life and reality and stuff like that. So I thought this is what I want to do. But I guess you're right. There's no career in it. Or at least it's really tough.
Maybe I should take a year off and take some more time to think. But I'm not sure about my parents. They won't be happy...

Well, the topic of higher education being "good" is no longer as straightforward as it used to be. You can show your parents stuff like this:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox...s_at_the_fate_of_underemployed_graduates.html

http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=20151208175803561

It may sound like laziness, but it's actually an arguable position that not going to college is better for your long-term financial benefit at this point.

The cost of college is so high and the chances of being employed in what you paid/prepared for is decreasing. And if you paid 40,000-60,000 and spent four years -- to end up at a job that is only a sliver above minimum wage, then you technically would have been more financially successful if you had just started working right out of high school at minimum wage and had 4 years of experience under your belt.

You'd probably be in a manager role at that point (earning as much as, or more than, a college-requiring entry position), and instead of being 40k-60k in debt, you'd have some 10-20k in potential savings. Quite a staggering difference!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M98x-FLp7E

That said, if you live in a socialist country, or can otherwise get a free ride - then totally go for it! But maybe you can have philosophy as your minor, while taking something else as a major?

 

[JR_IsP]

Hello guys, I'm currently studying Physics here in Venezuela, but I like philosophy (and Nietzche), however, my main focus is not reading books about (but if I can read one, I will), I like above all to think about it, think about reality and expore some crazy random ideas about the universe

Anyhow, I once created a reality theory with a friend of mine, we called it "the domes theorem", and it was a theory about us living in a simulated reality (some kind of mix between The Matrix, some Dystopics books and Physics)... We wrote a manifesto, is in spanish, but I can translate it if you guys are interested :P

 

[Valencia]

Hello everyone.

My name is Val and I'm from the US. Right now I'm in High School but I will graduate this year. I'm really interested in Philosophy and thus I thought I may go to college and study this subject.

I really like Nietzsche's books. My two favorites so far are “Beyond Good and Evil” and “Thus Spoke Zarathustra”. I would like to read more of that, from different philosophers to get to know different points of view. I guess you know what I mean.
Also I'm getting more and more interested in the history of Philosophy. So I did some research online and checked out some websites classified adds like http://www.for-sale.co.uk/philosophy-history. But I simply can't decide which book(s) to pick. There are so many for sale.

I thought it's a good idea to ask for advice here. So does anybody knows some good reads on the above topic? What kind of philosophy books are you currently reading. Which ones are your favorites and why?

And if there are some students around, maybe they can can recommend a few essential books for college. That would be great.

So any feedback is greatly appreciated.

Val.

OK. Thanks for all the advice. Next I'll go for Schopenhauer and afterwards for Evola.

 

[Valencia]

Nietzsche is good reading, Julius Evola also. They will either ruin your life or turn you into a conquering hero. What could go wrong?

YEP!

 

[Valencia]

Hello guys, I'm currently studying Physics here in Venezuela, but I like philosophy (and Nietzche), however, my main focus is not reading books about (but if I can read one, I will), I like above all to think about it, think about reality and expore some crazy random ideas about the universe

Anyhow, I once created a reality theory with a friend of mine, we called it "the domes theorem", and it was a theory about us living in a simulated reality (some kind of mix between The Matrix, some Dystopics books and Physics)... We wrote a manifesto, is in spanish, but I can translate it if you guys are interested :P

Sounds a bit like "Under the Dome" by Stephen King.

 

[JR_IsP]

Haha, I read that book

Actually it's more like living in a simulated reality, you see, when a intelligent society comes to a high enough level of computer power, it's logical to them to create a simulated universe... and if that universe (that may start from the very begginig or being a reflex of the original) reachs that computing level too, it will also do the same... and so on.

So, if we could make a simulated universe (we're starting to right now, with the VR thing and all the stuff), why can't be living in a simulated universe as well? Will the 'programmers' do something if we find out? Wouldn't that be the objective?

And most important, will that matter?

Yeah, it's crazy, I know :v

 

[gilliatt]

I do agree totally but, "Aristotle" by John Herman Randall Jr.; "The Unity of Philosophical Experience" by Etienne Gilson; "A History of Philosophy" by Wilhelm Windelband; "How to Think Creatively" by Eliot Hutchinson; "The Philosophy of Restrain" by Indira Rothermund. But Nietzsche, he is anti-reason, he believed that reason was an inferior faculty, he liked drunks better. And enslaving others. if you think you are right, you do not have to convince a million fools. 'No man may start-no man may initiate force against others. That is why I reject socialism, communism, fascism, all ism's that allow some men to force others to act against their will & convictions-that is my political philosophy.

 

[Seteleechete]

Read a book or some news stories instead and extrapolate ideas/reasoning yourself. Then present those ideas here for a good argument. I can't stand philosophical texts could they make those things any more archaic?

 

[kora]

Honestly I fell a bit a random. I really like Philosophy and I like to think about life and reality and stuff like that. So I thought this is what I want to do. But I guess you're right. There's no career in it. Or at least it's really tough.
Maybe I should take a year off and take some more time to think. But I'm not sure about my parents. They won't be happy...

Actually philosophy students are quite employable in all sorts of career paths, condescending bastard is just being a condescending bastard I actually study philosophy (1st year masters ethics and politics) and its a common misconception because I have seen the people around me being employed in all sorts of stuff (granted I live in France, I don't know what it's like elsewhere).

Here are careers aside from the obvious professor/teacher thing (which is not at all bad in itself in my opinion).
Off the top of my head :

Editor, journalist, diplomat, government jobs of all sorts, marketing (though of course they have gone over to the dark side of sophistry), psychotherapist, a lot have suplemented with law and end up doing legal stuff. I know some who have become published poets and writers, in France here many politicians did philosophy originally. Og more and more companies are employing ethical counselors or some shit like that.

Personally I'm hopefully headed for a thesis with a government grant in a years' time.
It's obviously something people do because they love it, but it's serious rigorous all round training for critical analysis, epistemology, logic, creativity, and mind fuck.

In my opinion it is not a waste of time, and I am very glad no one around me had that apparently rather typical "don't do it it's useless" attitude :-)

By all means gap years are great ideas, best not to rush into stuff. Also remember you can always get a philosophy degree and then do something else, it won't have been a waste at all, I guarantee you will end up with critical skills you did not have in the first place, and you will have a much richer experience of the world in general.

 

[kora]

To answer your actual question, if you like Nietzche, by far his greatest book in my opinion is "of the genealogy of morality". Zarathustra frustrated me as it is rather pretentious and cryptic, though aesthetically pleasing, he was trying to make a religious text for his world view.

Read Plato's dialogues, they are great fun. Particularly Euthyphron which is laugh out loud, The apology of Socrates which is the actual account of what socrates said at his trial (we have several sources and it's amazing. The banquet where they're all wasted and talking about love. The Republic.

Arsistotle : Nicomachean ethics

contemporary Philosophy of mind stuff (by far the most fascinating philosophy imo)

Jaegwon Kim : Introduction to philosophy of mind

David Chalmers on the hard problem of consciousness (if you read anything on this list make it this one):
http://consc.net/papers/facing.html
Check out Daniel Denett for an opposing point of view on consciousness.

I have to agree with condescending bastard Schopenhauer's fun but he is indeed awfully grumpy and depressing, he's kind of pain in the ass in the end, he should fuck off and have a picnic in the sun and laugh or something.

Politics:

Robert Nozick Anarchy State and Utopia
John Rawls Justice as fairness or political liberalism
Rousseau, John Stuart Mill
and Fucking MACHIAVELLI FUCK YEAH THE PRINCE SO BADASS
Michael Walzer


Sartre's Nausea and most of all NO EXIT which is one of the best plays I've ever read in my life. Dostoyevsky.

The second sex by DeBeauvoir, no it is not just a girls book, its fascinating and teaches u a lot about how culture constructs us, its about people of both sexes

avoid french bullshit like derrida like its the plague, philosophy is plagued with bullshit in fact, follow one simple rule , if it is incomprehensible, then it is bullshitm and here is my final recomendation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit

 

[Hadoblado]

Schopenhauer was unreadable to me. It's not that his ideas were any more depressing than the beliefs I already had... It's just that he goes out of his way to phrase everything more miserably.

As for a degree... If you have the thirst for philosophy I'd recommend looking around for any communities that do it. There are a few societies around where I live that go do philosophy in the pub. University just gives you a structure with which to learn, but, depending on where you live, it might not really improve your job prospects. IMO, you should use philosophy as a hobby, you're going to do it whether you're at uni or not. Sure uni education in it might make you a better philosopher on average, but often it ends up sucking the joy out of it too...

@Jr_IsP
I don't want to squelch your enthusiasm, but that sounds pretty familiar. I've read dozens of articles on that sort of thing. Have you reviewed what already exists? It's certainly an interesting topic

 

[Kuu]

In many colleges you can drop into classes without taking that major, I would recommend you try that, or join a discussion / reading club. Many degrees are like toilet paper nowadays, I certainly wouldn't spend my money and time on philosophy of all things...

As for Nietzsche, besides the already mentioned works I always did enjoy The Antichrist.

As for what I'm reading, I'm about to start Superintelligence by Nick Bostrom. I reached a point after reading enough philosophy to consider that it's mostly dead and decadent now; the only interesting things are those treading new ground looking into the future, as technology expands our human experience and even changes what being human is. But I guess you can enjoy wasting your time on Schopenhauer et al.

Editor, journalist, diplomat, government jobs of all sorts, marketing (though of course they have gone over to the dark side of sophistry), psychotherapist, a lot have suplemented with law and end up doing legal stuff. I know some who have become published poets and writers,

So... nothing that actually needs a degree in philosophy or involves philosophy really (well, writing might), and already there are other specialized degrees for?

Only viable job I've ever seen for people that study philosophy ends up being some variety of political shill peddling ideology for influence... (summarizes basically all of higs' list).

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

I don't read much philosophy, though I can recommend Superintelligence by Bostrom. It provided some brain candy for me recently.

Personally I wouldn't bother reading ancient stuff unless you're very convinced that you're going to enjoy the material. The further in the past you go the more stupid, obvious and tautological this stuff gets. We are standing on the shoulders of dwarfs, so much of the time there's no point looking back at something that's not modern.

And capitalist god-pigs have mercy, do not waste your academic time on humanities, unless you know what you're doing and you have a passion, which if you think about it, most likely means that you should've had that passion much earlier. Show me your dissertations from elementary school, diplomas, awards, works from high school -> exactly my point if you don't have any. It's a great hobby, that's what it is.

You can get to the same level of expertise without attending courses in philosophy.

 

[kora]

You can get to the same level of expertise without attending courses in philosophy.

Honestly, I think I can say without misplaced arrogance that I am pretty sure my knowledge and expertise in philosophy and the subtlety of arguments largely exceeds that of any person who has read some Schopenhauer in their spare time and studied physics or computer programming for 5 years, in fact, scientists for example sometimes have imo laughably naive understanding of the epistemology of their own field and the implications of what they do. But I am pleased you guys think you can publish in philosophy journals because it is ur hobby. That's just great.

The trouble with philosophy seems to be that everyone has the arrogance to say they're great at it, but actually don't have any nuanced understanding of the subjects they are dealing with.

Who are you people to tell this person that what they are passionate about should not be their life pursuit, and that they should not go and speak with and learn from like minded people who have devoted their life to the problems they are interested in in a setting of learning ? Are you looking down on abstract problems because they are not "economically viable" enough ? Are you judging a whole subject with a huge amount of authors and currently blooming innovative contemporary thought fields from your outsider's perspective of having read a couple of outdated bullshit books ? Doesn't sound much like "INTP" attitudes to me...(disclaimer : MBTI is bullshit and Carl Jung was insane )

Of course you are correct when you assume that a lot of it is outdated, which is whyI frequently advise people to read contemporary articles and books or things that still have something to say to us today, and that I do not study history of philosophy (I did for a bit, got to get that background + useful to be able to say WHY something is wrong or useless today, though it would also be false to say that everything old is shit today, some of it is still great.)

Philosophy topics/fields right now: Ethics of artificial intelligence like one of my professors specializes in, or environmental ethics like another, studying the problems of democracy and Arrow's impossibility theorem, the various arguments for libertarianism vs liberalism, or the foundation of value, or the relationship between altruism and evolution and coming up with computer model simulations to back you up along with a priori and a posteriori arguments, or trying to determine whether a virus counts as a life form, whether we should genetically modify mosquitoes to not carry malaria, what in fuck is a biological species anyway? Why is wikipedia reliable (epistemology of wikipedia is my boyfirend's subject right now, he's made a simulation for that too), What can a simulation tell us about the real world ? what is intuition ? WHAT IS CONSCIOUSNESS PARTICULARLY PHENOMENAL ASPECTS (<3) , is panpsychism true ? Is illusionism true? Is mysterianism true? What is truth ? Does our perception correspond to reality ? In what sense does it correspond if it does at all ? What is the ideal political system ? What do all languages have in common/ I.e are there universal concepts shared by everyone or is it purely social/cultural (Noam Chomsky vs Foucault), are we in a virtual reality (very trending), does ethics exist? What makes a theory better than another ? What is beauty ? Unjust and just wars , how do you justify authority ? How do you solve the migrant crisis ? Is a child sex robot for pedophiles ethical? Should prostitution be legal ? Is big data collection and the practice of data broking ethical ? How should we regulate data collection ? How should we act ? What can we know ? should robots have rights ? Judgement aggregation (is deliberation better than market prediction) ? should a self-driving car be programmed to kill two old ladies or one child if is in a situation where it must choose one ? From what point should AI be given the same rights as us ? How do you justify human rights anyway ? Does the ecosystem and natural world have intrinsic or instrumental value ? Rights on the internet, open source code, property rights in general, censorship, what do we owe to future generations? Do people who don't exist yet have rights or moral worth ? Is there a moral imperative to keep the human race going ? Is there a moral imperative to stop reproducing? etc etc etc

If you people think you can answer any of these questions better than the people who spend their time studying them and their professors then I would be surprised at your arrogance, and if you think that none of these questions are useful to society as a whole or worth asking I would be equally surprised.

I see so much bullshit on philosophy forums including this forum that would make most professors face palm until their nose breaks, and possibly third year students as well. Anybody can wax philosophical, but can you actually defend your positions in front of people who are professionals and have devoted their life to it or are you just a retard who thinks they know becuz they r cool and smart.

Of course, you're right in saying that other things are more economically viable, I don't even particularly care to defend that, although I will point out that no one I know is on the streets, smoking weed all day and dying slowly inside (well maybe one or two but they would anyway ), some of them are highly fulfilled, some of them are going to be rich, some of them quit and did something else, many of them stayed and wouldn't dream of doing anything else life vocation, some of them went on to do something else bt wouldn't trade in having done it for anything. Honestly I'm pretty sure that if everyone who studied it ended up in shit the course would die, and furthermore, I think it says more about how society is shit than the course being shit that it is not valued.

Quit bashing what you don't know anything about because this one time you went to a "reading club" lmao and read Kant and thought you understood it and have an opinion on Nietzche.

David Chalmers sent me a personal email yesterday answering questions I had on the hard problem and you guys will probably never speak to him or even understand one of the leading authorities and most revolutionary thinkers on consciousness today and it's your own mind and experience u don't understand hahaha sucks for you probably your grandkids will hear about him (k now i'm just being a bitch I admit)

Kuu, I think you're being rather dishonest and very dismissive categorizing all those professions as political "shills" (I guess you mean sophists?) would you care to develop on why all those professions are useless sophistry ? Are you saying no one does any of these out of conviction for their idea of good ? What about an editor ? What about teaching ? What's wrong with that? Is research bad? What's wrong with a good journalist who understands the complexities of society and the value of facts and arguments (imo society as a whole would be a fuckload better off if journalists were forced to do philosophy, particularly you guys in and around America it seems)? What's wrong with you lol ?

Here is a taxonomic map of philosophy based on data taken from philpapers, would you say that all these topics and research papers are useless ? Look how massive it is, we're talking about the largest (in the depth of logical spaces it covers) scientific domain in existence. Val you should check this out, and you should definitely find out about the differing philosophy courses and make sure they focus on the sort of thing you're interested in. In France there is a tendency for example for it to be in majority history of philosophy which could piss you off if you want to do contemporary problems, see what the professors in the courses you look at tend to specialize in, and remember you can always convert to something else if it ends up not being what you want, it's great that you are naturally interested in this stuff.

http://lophi.ramdam.space/images/philo4layers.svg

edited, larger more precise version:

http://lophi.ramdam.space/images/philo5layers.svg

 

[Niclmaki]

Why do you want to study philosophy in college?
There's no career in it, so is there something you want to know?

If your planning to study philosophy to put off undertaking the responsibilities of an adult life I suggest taking a gap year to collect your thoughts, read some books, work part-time or casual and argue with people on the internet.

Take some time to think.

I took philosophy, psychology and history in university.

I'm unemployed now. Mission successful.

 

[kora]

https://philosophy.as.uky.edu/where-can-philosophy-take-me

 

[Niclmaki]

https://philosophy.as.uky.edu/where-can-philosophy-take-me

Oh, well I suppose I just suck at being employed in that case.

 

[kora]

Of course, it's also possible that people who suck at being employed naturally gravitate towards philosophy But maybe if they hadn't done philosophy they would be even more unemployed omg where is truth

I thought history students wouldn't be at all employable tbh but my experience is proving me wrong so far. Psychology and sociology seem to be losing out, but maybe I just know the wrong ones.

Anyway maybe my life will suck and I will end up on the streets all because I didn't do "sensible" things like law medicine computer stuff and economics but right now my perspectives seem pretty good, I'm not frightened.

 

[Kuu]

Kuu, I think you're being rather dishonest and very dismissive categorizing all those professions as political "shills" (I guess you mean sophists?)

No I didn't mean sophists, I meant shills. Though shills generally are sophists. I'm not being dishonest by the way; nearly all of the people that I have personally met in meatspace involved in those professions and *are employed* are political or corporate (politics by other means) shills.

would you care to develop on why all those professions are useless sophistry ?

I never said that. What happened to your subtlety? My statements were pretty short, and pretty clear. Being a shill is evidently something useful and profitable.

Are you saying no one does any of these out of conviction for their idea of good ? What about an editor ? What about teaching ? What's wrong with that? What's wrong with a good journalist who understands the complexities of society and the value of facts and arguments (imo society as a whole would be a fuckload better off if journalists were forced to do philosophy, particularly you guys in America it seems)?

I'm saying that very few of those that follow their convictions, without shilling in some form, are employed. The world revolves around money, not philosophy. Truth is what the highest bidder says it is. If journalists studied philosophy they wouldn't be employed. Journals survive off advertisement, some of it is images, most of it is articles. Editors choose how to angle things, determine how to play up or down events according to ideology, decide what gets written about or pushed into the memory hole. If you write something that is damaging to the journal's corporate paymasters, see how fast you get fired.

Teaching? If only you knew. One year of teaching will give you a crash course on so many things in life, like bureaucratic insanity, academic masturbation, the intellectual decline of newer generations, the laziness and idiocy of the average person, petty office infighting, self-damaging competitiveness and certainly the reality that many schools are but a nasty business.

Great academics are employed for their highly specialized (and profitable) knowledge, not for whatever philosophy they hold dear. If your stuff isn't profitable, you don't get grants. If you don't shill and brown-nose, you don't climb up the academic ladder. No matter what you do, or how brilliant you are, you either play politics or don't play at all. Being opinionated is generally a direct path to getting fired unless they are the same as the ones your employer has. You only get paid to think what other people want you to think, no more.

philosophy is plagued with bullshit in fact

Why is that, if not because bullshit sells?

What's wrong with you lol ?

What's wrong with ME? We live in a fucked up world of systematic exploitation and barbarity wrapped up as spectacle... I'm just a realist with enough mental fortitude to see the world for what it is.

I live in a place where the candy coat of our modern civilization is so thin you can see right through it into the savage machinery of corporatist wage slavery and mass media cultural manipulation. It requires an extremely low intellect to deny it when it is so in your face; most people acknowledge it but resign themselves to be the best cog they can be rather than think too much of it and suffer the stress and actual life threat of resisting it in any meaningful sense.

The whole world operates under the same basic codes; it's just the user interface is more polished and the experience more tolerable in some places.

France is a pretty unique country, it has a considerable safety net and historically known for an intellectual and cultural open mindedness, where one can be an "intellectual" and not be branded insane immediately (and that only in the big cities). It's probably one of the few stalwarts against the global intellectual decline; its cultural inertia is huge. My brother moved to France for that very reason. To extrapolate its unique situation globally is rather ill advised.

Then again your politicians are a bunch of globalist stooges and you have Bernard-Henri Lévy. If that's not the poster boy for a philosopher-shill, I don't know what is.

I'd be interested to see what you end up employed in once you graduate, and whether that has any real use for philosophy that isn't shilling. Academia doesn't count.

Lastly, false humility is quite unseemly, more so on the self-styled intellectual. That's just pandering to slave morality.

I was going to make an arrogant point by point rebuttal about how nearly all your philosophy topics are either solved issues or unsolvable issues, but my vast arrogance has determined its not worth my time.

 

[kora]

"No I didn't mean sophists, I meant shills. Though shills generally are sophists. I'm not being dishonest by the way; nearly all of the people that I have personally met in meatspace involved in those professions and *are employed* are political or corporate (politics by other means) shills.

I never said that. What happened to your subtlety? My statements were pretty short, and pretty clear. Being a shill is evidently something useful and profitable."

A shill is something useful and profitable ? Okay, well calling them sophists works too I guess, it's people who will say whatever to secure their place independently of their actual beliefs or convictions, we are on the same page as far as I'm concerned.


"I'm saying that very few of those that follow their convictions, without shilling in some form, are employed. The world revolves around money, not philosophy. Truth is what the highest bidder says it is. If journalists studied philosophy they wouldn't be employed. Journals survive off advertisement, some of it is images, most of it is articles. Editors choose how to angle things, determine how to play up or down events according to ideology, decide what gets written about or pushed into the memory hole. If you write something that is damaging to the journal's corporate paymasters, see how fast you get fired."

Are you saying there is zero serious journalism left in the world ? All is slave to the corporations ? Where have you gotten access to ideas such as this that permit you to criticize this structure ? Is it through journalism ? Do you think everything the guardian says is total shit ? Are there no worthwhile reliable news sources ? I know there are some in France, but maybe France is "special" like you say.

"Teaching? If only you knew. One year of teaching will give you a crash course on so many things in life, like bureaucratic insanity, academic masturbation, the intellectual decline of newer generations, the laziness and idiocy of the average person, petty office infighting, self-damaging competitiveness and certainly the reality that many schools are but a nasty business."

That does indeed sound gloomy and misanthropic, you and Schopenhauer would get on great it seems . Listen, I can't speak for teaching as an experience because I haven't done it. I know some teachers who definitely enjoy it tons though, even in difficult challeging environments. But again my experience is disqualified because I live in France and France is apparently radically different.

"Great academics are employed for their highly specialized (and profitable) knowledge, not for whatever philosophy they hold dear. If your stuff isn't profitable, you don't get grants. If you don't shill and brown-nose, you don't climb up the academic ladder. No matter what you do, or how brilliant you are, you either play politics or don't play at all. Being opinionated is generally a direct path to getting fired unless they are the same as the ones your employer has. You only get paid to think what other people want you to think, no more."

Uhmmm... But then why are people in universities all over the world being paid to think about all the apparently "useless" and "unsolvable" problems I listed above ? I don't think the hard problem of consciousness is profitable to the United states or Australia ? I am pretty sure that many thinkers are there on some form of academic merit and contribution to their field, not just ass kissing or looking hot... (trust me, most of them would suck so bad at that).


"Why is that, if not because bullshit sells?"

Well apparently non bullshit sells too so we're alright !

"What's wrong with ME? We live in a fucked up world of systematic exploitation and barbarity wrapped up as spectacle... I'm just a realist with enough mental fortitude to see the world for what it is."

I'm not denying that some of the world is as ugly as you say it is, but I think that perhaps you are excessively pessimistic. Hey, maybe I live a guilded life. I feel capitalistic pressure, hell I'm a struggling student, we all do to some extent, but I still see value in the things I love and in studying what I love.

"I live in a place where the candy coat of our modern civilization is so thin you can see right through it into the savage machinery of corporatist wage slavery and mass media cultural manipulation. It requires an extremely low intellect to deny it when it is so in your face; most people acknowledge it but resign themselves to be the best cog they can be rather than think too much of it and suffer the stress and actual life threat of resisting it in any meaningful sense."

I obviously have nothing to say to this except good luck, and I wish you the best.

"The whole world operates under the same basic codes; it's just the user interface is more polished and the experience more tolerable in some places."

Ditto.

"France is a pretty unique country, it has a considerable safety net and historically known for an intellectual and cultural open mindedness, where one can be an "intellectual" and not be branded insane immediately (and that only in the big cities). It's probably one of the few stalwarts against the global intellectual decline; its cultural inertia is huge. My brother moved to France for that very reason. To extrapolate its unique situation globally is rather ill advised."

Even in America there are opportunities in academia or so called "intellectuals", in England, Australia, Germany etc... obviously Mexico is not the same deal I acknowledge this.

"Then again your politicians are a bunch of globalist stooges and you have Bernard-Henri Lévy. If that's not the poster boy for a philosopher-shill, I don't know what is."

Loooool everyone knows BHL is a joke, we just keep him around for fun.

As for our politicians we're doing our best there's a a great possibility Melenchon is about to be elected president despite corporatist agenda attempting everything to stop him, he's a great political figure and guy (and I swear I never say that), incidentally, he studied philosophy. (so did one of the globalist douchebags running as well might I add, so there is the shill example.

"I'd be interested to see what you end up employed in once you graduate, and whether that has any real use for philosophy that isn't shilling. Academia doesn't count."

Well, honestly, I would like to be in academia tbh but it is highly competitive, otherwise I fancy working for international organizations, I think for all their faults they do some good things. I would feel somewhat worthwhile in one of them. Otherwise I basically want to write stuff that's interesting/fun/beautiful.

"Lastly, false humility is quite unseemly, more so on the self-styled intellectual. That's just pandering to slave morality.

I was going to make an arrogant point by point rebuttal about how nearly all your philosophy topics are either solved issues or unsolvable issues, but my vast arrogance has determined its not worth my time."

Well ladidah, guess they should all just give up, u should write letters to all the universities currently financing research on the topics because they're gonna be wasting their money unless you let them know soon...

 

[Kuu]

Are you saying there is zero serious journalism left in the world ?

You keep making my position more extreme than it is. I said there are few, not zero. They struggle and make little if any money though; *that* is my point.

Are there no worthwhile reliable news sources ?

The larger the organization, the larger the economic interests and the larger the motivation (and capacity) to deceive. Of course small organizations might have big backers too. All together, one should never trust any news source blindly on face value, all humans are biased towards something, consciously or otherwise.

I know some teachers who definitely enjoy it tons though, even in difficult challeging environments.

Enjoyment of it is completely irrelevant to the reality of what I describe. There are nameless people all over the world struggling in shithole workplaces for the simple fact of trying to do their job right, while the assholes and bullshitters rise. The world keeps running because of the collective anonymous and little recognized work of those people.

But again my experience is disqualified because I live in France and France is apparently radically different.

See you keep putting words in my mouth. Your experience is not disqualified, it just requires weighting properly with additional data, lest one confuse an exception for the rule.

France *is* different. It is one of the core nations that has defined western civilization, producing considerable amounts of its culture, philosophy, religion, technology, and economy. It has been an imperialist power with world influence for centuries. Its capital is widely regarded as one of the culturally most influential cities in the planet, for centuries too. Its been at the forefront of politics and the philosophy of the modern era, one of the first modern republics, one of the first to embrace modern science and eschew religion, one of the major players if global wars for centuries, one of the first to have strong workers movements and open up socially and sexually. French philosophy and politics and cultural artifacts are world famous. And the population of France isn't even 1% of the world. So I'm not sorry if I offend you saying France is inadequate as an example to provide absolute statements on global issues.

My country wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for Napoleonic wars, for french enlightenment philosophy, for french military intervention, or the francophilia of several pivotal political figures. French is the second most popular foreign language here after english, and France is popularly seen as *the* epitome of civilization by the elite classes.

Uhmmm... But then why are people in universities all over the world being paid to think about all the apparently "useless" and "unsolvable" problems I listed above ?

Because philosophy is not valued intrinsically, it is valued as a means to an end, the end being power. It does not matter if you produce quality philosophy or utter drivel, as long as you can use the ideology to convince people to do your bidding. Bullshit is useful, bullshit sells. The Academic bureaucracy, like all other power structures, seeks self preservation, and by being useful shills to the economic and political power structures, selling BS ideologies, they secure funding and survive.

I'm a struggling student

Are you? Most education is free and tuition costs for higher edu in France (and Europe generally) are pretty damn low and you even get free money for being a student and even unemployment benefits! I'm pretty sure France was also pioneer in free quality secular education way back since Napoleon (well nothing is free, the colonized pay with their blood and sweat for the wealths of empires). Wiki says it's €150 to €700 a year? Comparable quality higher edu here is €8,000 or more, which is extremely prohibitive considering the pathetically low wages and higher cost of living in big cities, and one also really needs private edu from youth which costs about the same because the public one is absolute shit (what's the point of 90%+ scholarization when its shit? Just political brownie points). So the upper strata of society all grow into compliant globalists indoctrinated since elementary, while the majority of society is barely literate. This is more the norm around the world, and France and Europe in general is an anomaly.

I still see value in the things I love and in studying what I love.

Oh I love studying what I love, and I do enjoy philosophy. I just don't confuse what I love for what is a realistic career for the majority of the world population. To pretend that philosophy is likely to not end in failure for most would be a huge disservice, and is why I refute you so.

Even in America there are opportunities in academia or so called "intellectuals", in England, Australia, Germany etc... obviously Mexico is not the same deal I acknowledge this.

No, no, no there are plenty of opportunities! Humanities and faux-marxism is huge here! One philososhill even ran for president with a faux-green party! Writing politically convenient history books or ranting on social media against all the government does while being paid by the UN or the British Embassy is extremely profitable! Hell, my father is a corporate shill, working on a think tank providing greenwashing spiels for a bunch of major polluters...

Loooool everyone knows BHL is a joke, we just keep him around for fun.

He seems to have lots of powerful, rich friends... I'm not sure they pay him to be around for fun.

Well ladidah, guess they should all just give up, u should write letters to all the universities currently financing research on the topics because they're gonna be wasting their money unless you let them know soon...

Oh they're aware, but they don't think it's a waste, they're getting a good return on their investment. Their goal is just not what you think it is.

 

[Hadoblado]

Does anyone know how much the average philosophy major earns relative to what others do?

I started off minoring in philosophy. I enjoyed it a lot, but eventually changed course to focus more on psychology. I found that the units were interesting, but nothing about them required me to be pay money on top of buying the books. The lectures are freely available online. The tutorials are fun but more of a social experience, easily replicable by joining some sort of society or book club.

Don't get me wrong, it's unlikely that the average person with an interest in philosophy is as well rounded in this respect as the philosophy graduate. But unless someone can give me the numbers, I'm assuming philosophy does not pay well even if there are exceptions, and there's no mechanism preventing people from becoming philosophers without degrees. I think a lot of these issues are really interesting and worth pursuing, but not as part of a career unless you think yourself exceptional.

 

[redbaron]

Nietzsche is good reading, Julius Evola also. They will either ruin your life or turn you into a conquering hero. What could go wrong?

It's just a book you know.

OT: Immanuel Kant is good for a skim

 

[redbaron]

Higs i m best filosofer i redded sum wen i was skool so fak u bish

Kuu I don't know if you know this but you're basically applying the template of Mexico to the rest of the world.

Also you complain about people just becoming cogs and not making meaningful resistance, but this line of thinking is quite a philosophical one. It would seem the only way to stage a meaningful resistance anyway is through some kind of shift in how everyone thinks and understands things.

Culture is really important, and the fact that Mexico has an ineffective one doesn't make all philosophy useless or have no utility. I like bashing philosophy too but it's also an important aspect of human existence. It's good to know how we came to be, so that we don't have to fall back into the same problems.

Also, the only real alternative to philosophy is religion. Pick your poison really.

I talk some mad shit about Western society sometimes but it's built mostly on philosophical and secular values, which is good. Teaching more of this stuff and having more people thinking along these lines is good. The alternative is to be more like the Middle East - notsogood.

 

[TheManBeyond]

Dunno about philosophers but i work with some mid range journalists who get around 2.100 iirc euros/month, they have at least around 12 years of experience.
In spain that's some good money but i find the job to be so extreme, they have to come up with stories or set them with the producers for the tv show, call people implicated in those news, arrange meetings, go to get make up, go with some camera man to record a couple interviews, then record their voices reading the stories and arrange the video for the news, sometimes they even have to go "live", they are running all the time, screaming and stuff.

 

[onesteptwostep]

@OP If you're interested in atheistic philosophy I would recommend Bertrand Russell and Voltaire.

As for the history of philosophy I would recommend just reading any introduction to philosophy book. They're usually divided into ancient, medieval, enlightenment, then modern then postmodern. I'd recommend starting from the enlightenment (Descartes, Kant) since it's a bit more cut out than the rest, then go into ancient greek philosophy and progress chronologically/historically from there. The history of philosophy requires an incredible broad knowledge though; I'm not sure what you'll gain from reading them. I'm currently reading Socrates to Sartre and Beyond: A History of Philosophy by Samuel Enoch which is just a general outline, if you're interested.

If you're interested in contemporary philosophy, I would recommend Terry Eagleton and his contemporary cultural criticism, as well as Roger Scruton on the same subject.

Does anyone know how much the average philosophy major earns relative to what others do?

Philosophy as work? Pretty much peanuts; you'd have to become like a superstar or part of school faulty in order to get something worthwhile.

The thing about philosophy is just an acquisition of history and things like critical thinking- you're able to formulate your thoughts because you have to think through philosophy to actually understand the concepts, etc.

 

[TAC]

Consider reading the fiction novel "Infinite Jest" by David Foster Wallace. It explores humans never ending quest of escapism through various mediums in a dystopian society. Or any of Nassim Taleb's books (more focused on logic and statistics than hard philosophy, but he gives interesting narratives and practical application).
Personally, I have always been more interested in logic than the "philosophy of philosophy" so to speak. David Hume has some great work in the field of logic along with Descartes or Godel. A firm grasp on logic allows you to test yourself against the great philosophers as well.