Look Into My Eyes, Autistic Style

[TBerg]

As someone who has thought of himself as on the autism spectrum, I just want to write about the ability of eye contact to give you deeper insight into social dynamics.

It is not really the intellectual department that is my Achilles Heel but the emotional and affective underpinnings of whatever my intellect puts under scrutiny. It is not that I consider myself to be exceptionally intelligent, but that I know I can understand most things that capture my attention. It is just the emotional parts that push against understanding and acceptance of what I might be seeing.

I have a tendency towards black and white thinking in this way, because I divorce so many thoughts from the emotional ambivalence and complexity that is the subtext of so many conversations and instructions. I can understand words. I just might not understand the full significance of what those words point towards. That means that a lot of words acquire a meaning that I intellectualized instead of empathized.

This gets on to the importance of eye contact. I have found that the more I try to have a decent kind of eye contact with others as I try to relate to them, the more I seem to be pulled into a more empathetic understanding instead of an intellectual understanding. My attention is not pulled inward towards my own intellectual structure but is pulled towards someone else's, allowing me to act upon their understanding instead of my own.

This is important because in so many situations, I have developed my own system of doing things that is very Spartan and uncongenial to others. I need to work on not simply trying to bang all of the squares I see into my own personal round holes. There is a way of finding the right hole if only I can let my mind see it in someone else's soul.

Not only will this mean that many situations will have better outcomes, but I will be able to have a worldview more conducive to others. More situations will be better and better learning experiences rather than triggers for paranoia, anxiety, depression, and resentment. I will be able to reach out to more of the world rather than finding myself in more and more isolation.

So, instead of being evermore obtrusive into my environment and social settings, I will have the move more and more into the lives of others. Humans are social animals. Our populations go extinct without the ability to cooperate. I will stare extinction in the eye and it will blink.

https://libercolumbia.wordpress.com/2016/07/23/look-into-my-eyes-autistic-style/

 

[Tannhauser]

This is what I always thought about eye contact, along with all the various manifestations of human interaction: it is interesting to consider the cause of eye contact, as opposed to its effect. Many people, say, of course, that eye contact is important in social interaction, but I assume that notion arises from observing human interaction and seeing that people who have good conversations tend to have good eye contact. But it seems to me that is to neglect the actual cause of it, i.e. the possibility that eye contact arises from more general goals of the participants. In particular, if you want to understand another person empathetically, you have to hold eye contact. If you want to keep them engaged in the conversation, you have to hold eye contact and so on. To start with focusing on eye contact as opposed to the more fundamental goals, seems to me to be a less effective approach.

 

[Bock]

In particular, if you want to understand another person empathetically, you have to hold eye contact.

Sounds like you're subjecting yourself to various emotional traps that will limit your "understanding" rather than improve it. You are talking about "understanding" the other person yet a significant factor here is how emotionally responsive you yourself are to whatever the context is, seems messy. Not that being enveloped in another person's worldview/emotional experience is always a bad thing but you get the idea.

 

[Tannhauser]

Sounds like you're subjecting yourself to various emotional traps that will limit your "understanding" rather than improve it. You are talking about "understanding" the other person yet a significant factor here is how emotionally responsive you yourself are to whatever the context is, seems messy. Not that being enveloped in another person's worldview/emotional experience is always a bad thing but you get the idea.

and how did you arrive at the conclusion that this indicates in any way that you are supposed to be emotionally unresponsive or be completely lacking in emotional sophistication?

 

[TheManBeyond]

I almpst never look at people in the eyes when talking ti them
If i do is because i know the situation requires it, like a job interview and it feels awful, with friends it's like i'm revealibg my feelings to them in such a personal way that i just give up and look at walls
Perhaps when i'm trying to prove a point, aka destroy resistance i might force more the eye it will naturally goofor its victim and it wont feel like i'm feeling

 

[TheManBeyond]

Sorry for the kind of supervillian vibe in that text

 

[Bock]

and how did you arrive at the conclusion that this indicates in any way that you are supposed to be emotionally unresponsive or be completely lacking in emotional sophistication?

The point is that this "understanding" is subject to factors within yourself hence i question your idea of "empathetic understanding" ("emotional connection" sounds more accurate). Whether eye contact produces better or worse discourse depends entirely on context (and again, on the nature of the participants).

Eye contact is ultimately about emotional connection and bonding, which i assume is the essence of TBerg's post (his social struggle and will/reasoning to overcome it).

 

[Tannhauser]

The point is that this "understanding" is subject to factors within yourself hence i question your idea of "empathetic understanding" ("emotional connection" sounds more accurate). Whether eye contact produces better or worse discourse depends entirely on context (and again, on the nature of the participants).

Eye contact is ultimately about emotional connection and bonding, which i assume is the essence of TBerg's post (his social struggle and will/reasoning to overcome it).

You seem to argue against a point which I never intended to make, and your disagreement seems to be solely based on some distinction between "empathetic understanding" and "emotional connection". I honestly have a really hard time seeing where you are gong with this.

If anything, it is exactly my point that context should come prior to any decision about how to hold one's eye contact. That is what I meant by "eye contact arises from more general goals of the participants".

 

[Bock]

I honestly have a really hard time seeing where you are gong with this.

That "empathetic understanding" is a bit of an oxymoron, and that eye contact certainly isn't required to "understand" someones emotional experience, rather you just open up yourself to it (which isn't particularly likely to lead to a place similar to the one you are trying to "empathetically understand").

Eye contact is a bit like mutual manipulation (well, unless someone is staring you down and you feel forced to respond and so on).

If anything, it is exactly my point that context should come prior to any decision about how to hold one's eye contact. That is what I meant by "eye contact arises from more general goals of the participants".

In particular, if you want to understand another person empathetically, you have to hold eye contact. If you want to keep them engaged in the conversation, you have to hold eye contact and so on.

You painted a pretty skewed picture of eye contact, clearly in favor it (this is what you wrote, if you meant something else anyway - that's another story).

 

[Tannhauser]

@bock
Are you sure you know what 'oxymoron' means? Anyway, it seems to me that you got caught up in interpreting that one sentence containing "empathetic understanding". As I suspected, you are arguing against a point I never made – I was trying to make the point that eye contact itself is subordinate to the social motives to the participants of the interaction.

Whether eye contact is essential for social interaction is another discussion, although I would definitely assert that it is.

 

[Pyropyro]

As an autistic, I developed certain coping mechanisms and rituals to ease the issue of eye contact and social interaction in general. Just because one is autistic doesn't mean that they can't be functional anymore.

1. I sometimes find it easier to look at the rim of my glasses rather than the faces of the people that I'm uncomfortable looking at. I've found that that's sort of a win-win solution.

2. I also break eye contact by pretending that I'm thinking of something and looking upwards and "hmm"ing a bit even if I probably have a couple of new ideas to provide in the discussion. It refreshes my internal eye contact timer and it also shows my listener that I'm moving at their pace.

3. Finally, at speeches I prefer to sweep my eyes so a not to fixate my eyes to and part of the audience. It helps them see that I'm engaging all of them and also prevents me from being overwhelmed by the visual stimuli.

 

[Yellow]

I'm 99% sure that I don't have ASD, but I (and some ASD people I've run across) have the opposite problem. I stare. I don't mean anything by it, I just get fixated studying something/someone, and forget that there's a person attached who will become uncomfortable/confrontational over it.

Honestly, I don't know how some people manage eye contact so easily.

 

[Minuend]

I'm autistic and I find I'm able to empathize better at a distance when I can properly simulate other people's state of mind and their situation. Either by thinking about them or looking at a picture and simulate. Being around a person usually disrupt my concentration, reduces my ability to simulate and thus makes me more detached. Having to hold eye contact disrupt my concentration even more, I can even feel parts of my mind go "blank" when I look at people's faces. Even when I do it with someone I'm comfortable around, it's like looking into a hollow in a way. It's only when I look at their eyes and start simulating what they are thinking/ feeling I might have some emotional response to that other than discomfort.

I think possibly for me, it would be too intense and stressful to automatically have an emotional response to other people's face or that kind of emotional input from other people. Would be too much, maybe contributing to sensory overload and eventually meltdown.

That being said, I do think it would enhance my overall perspective if I tried to learn myself to do it (taking in people by looking in their eyes). I think I could be able to do it somewhat if I tried actively doing it over a longer period.

I do hold eye contact while feeling a bit blank, though. I taught myself to do that when I was around 16 and read about body language. I still have some difficulty knowing when to look away and such, but hopefully people aren't so obsessed with where I'm looking for this to cause problem for them. I tend to do the "look away while thinking" emote

 

[Black Rose]

It's difficult for me to listen and look at the same time but mostly when I am tired and because I feel emotionally uncomfortable, why are we talking and what should I say, I don't know what to say, their expectations are too much for me, I look stupid / incoherent. I should get to the point or leave before they get upset at me.

 

[bvanevery]

Eyes are weird. In my life I've had trouble with them. No ASD or anything like that, just baggage from being a smart kid, dumped by bio-mom, being ostracized some as I was growing up. It's something I've had to work on as I got older, particularly for dating. I'm not some eye contact genius. I wonder if someone put a video on me a lot, if I'd still wander off at times. I find myself still remembering to deliberately make eye contact with my Mom at dinner for instance. If I really get absorbed in some mental spew of my own reasoning, I might stop looking because the steam is coming out of my ears.

On the other hand, I can detect a lot of information from other people's eyes if I want to. I have problems directing my eyes. Not reading their eyes.

 

[Tannhauser]

I'm 99% sure that I don't have ASD, but I (and some ASD people I've run across) have the opposite problem. I stare. I don't mean anything by it, I just get fixated studying something/someone, and forget that there's a person attached who will become uncomfortable/confrontational over it.

Surely some will also be charmed by it?

But that reminds me of something that has sometimes happened to me: I will be having a normal conversation with someone, and then in the middle of it I suddenly think "wait a minute, I am staring into this person's eyes". Then it somehow becomes uncomfortable.

 

[bvanevery]

Stare into my eyes, you fool...

Like an old movie line

 

[Bock]

@bock
Are you sure you know what 'oxymoron' means? Anyway, it seems to me that you got caught up in interpreting that one sentence containing "empathetic understanding". As I suspected, you are arguing against a point I never made – I was trying to make the point that eye contact itself is subordinate to the social motives to the participants of the interaction.

Whether eye contact is essential for social interaction is another discussion, although I would definitely assert that it is.

You've been incredibly vague, deflective and selective in what you respond to from the very beginning (your initial response was a fleeting comment that was in no way related to what i wrote), not sure what buttons of yours that i've pressed.

 

[bvanevery]

You've been incredibly vague, deflective and selective in what you respond to from the very beginning (your initial response was a fleeting comment that was in no way related to what i wrote), not sure what buttons of yours that i've pressed.

I think he didn't like that you said:

Sounds like you're subjecting yourself to various emotional traps that will limit your "understanding" rather than improve it.

Since you impugned his abilities, you are having an ego battle.

 

[Tannhauser]

You've been incredibly vague, deflective and selective in what you respond to from the very beginning (your initial response was a fleeting comment that was in no way related to what i wrote), not sure what buttons of yours that i've pressed.

When someone starts directing the discussion towards your character like in the quoted post, you know they have nothing more interesting to say.

 

[Puffy]

I'm 99% sure that I don't have ASD, but I (and some ASD people I've run across) have the opposite problem. I stare. I don't mean anything by it, I just get fixated studying something/someone, and forget that there's a person attached who will become uncomfortable/confrontational over it.

Honestly, I don't know how some people manage eye contact so easily.

I can tell you'd be very popular on the London underground.

Eye contact is something I don't even think about anymore but I guess I don't maintain eye contact by default and never have. I was one of those shoegazing kids whose eyes never left the floor. My eyes tend to drift away from the person, or I look to the side and go blank as if I'm internally reading what I'm saying. I find total outward engagement hard to do.

An interesting exercise is to get a hand-mirror and try to express as many different emotions with just your eyes (not the rest of your face) as you can. Doing this regularly I quickly realised that I only have a small palette of emotions I'm able to convincingly emulate. It gives a quick window into the defining tone/ emotional range underlying your day. I'm trying to consciously work on my range at the moment. Maybe I should try staring at people too.

 

[Tannhauser]

Since you impugned his abilities, you are having an ego battle.

Ego battle? If you read my posts, I only tried to figure out what his point was.

 

[bvanevery]

Ego battle? If you read my posts, I only tried to figure out what his point was.

Oh come on. You may tell yourself that, but from a third party observer's perspective, you two are locked in a male pissing match. Just the intellectual version of it, with barriers defined as why you're a better person than the other guy for how you're handling it. I'm not saying his initial remark wasn't mildly irritating, I sort of cringed when I read it, but it takes two to tango.

 

[Tannhauser]

Oh come on. You may tell yourself that, but from a third party observer's perspective, you two are locked in a male pissing match. Just the intellectual version of it, with barriers defined as why you're a better person than the other guy for how you're handling it. I'm not saying his initial remark wasn't mildly irritating, I sort of cringed when I read it, but it takes two to tango.

I'm not gonna lie – I did find his first post annoying. But mostly because the tone of the post indicated some disagreement with me, without disagreeing with any point I actually made.

I mean, it is quite revealing that he thought my post was meant to emphasize the importance of eye contact. If anything, my point was the opposite.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

"Those with autism will avoid eye contact"
"Those with autism give too much eye contact"

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I almpst never look at people in the eyes when talking ti them
If i do is because i know the situation requires it, like a job interview and it feels awful, with friends it's like i'm revealibg my feelings to them in such a personal way that i just give up and look at walls
Perhaps when i'm trying to prove a point, aka destroy resistance i might force more the eye it will naturally goofor its victim and it wont feel like i'm feeling

Sorry for the kind of supervillian vibe in that text

Why do you think supervillains always face the wall when sitting in their chairs? Are they autistic? Probably. But they know the power that eye contact has to reveal and mislead.

 

[Black Rose]

"Those with autism will avoid eye contact"
"Those with autism give too much eye contact"

I talk slow because I don't want to say the wrong thing.
People don't understand me when I say the right thing.

So I don't know what to say.

Fluidity fluctuates from smooth to gritty.

 

[Pyropyro]

"Those with autism will avoid eye contact"
"Those with autism give too much eye contact"

I think the right statement would be:

Those with autism have no idea what to do with eye contact.

 

[crippli]

I searched eye contact and pua, as these people have "looked" into these things and made an attempt to explain what is going on, and what one should do with regular people.

This isn't particularly relevant for me, as I tend to find regular people boring. But it is interesting nontheless. So if this is accurate, there is a whole language here to that goes on, and they probably don't know why they do this staring thing themselves. I presume men do the same thing as the women in the experiment by the pua player.

Personally I tend to give people one glance into my eyes. That is all. It does not at all mean that I dismiss them, or is uninterested. But with me, I presume a little is a lot. If they continue to look into my eye, I will probably stare them down. And continue, to make the point, that I found they overstepped.

Spoiler

http://puarticles.blogspot.no/2008/01/david-shades-eye-contact-experiment.html

When you look at a woman, here is what you do. Lock eye contact with her. Don't
blink. Don't look at her friend. Pick one eye and don't let go. You only get one chance
at this. Don't give up. Don't smile. Don't say anything. You are telling her that you are
interested in her and you are not intimidated by her. Then leave it up to her. You will be
amazed at the staring capability that women posses.

She is thinking "Who is this guy to be so bold as to continue looking at me while I look
at him? Now this is interesting. He is different." She knows that if she lets go now, she
will loose you. She will go one of two ways. If she wants to loose you, she will break
eye contact and look away. If she does not want to loose you, but is instead intrigued by
what you are doing, she knows that she has to eventually end the stare down and she
will have to make the move. She will have to either smile or say Hi.

If she smiles, you smile. If she says Hi, you say Hi. Don't say Hello. Then you reward
her and make your move.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I think the right statement would be:

Those with autism have no idea what to do with eye contact.

Well said, phrasing it this way highlights the developmental issues with social experience and social reasoning.

Saying they give too much or too little eye contact invites the forer effect I think because it makes the issue seem to be one of those things where every individual assumes they're doing something wrong/right, but doesn't know many in society share the same experience.

I talk slow because I don't want to say the wrong thing.
People don't understand me when I say the right thing.

So I don't know what to say.

Fluidity fluctuates from smooth to gritty.

Internet memes may have become (or always been) adolescent banality but a lot of them are about conveying a universal message beyond spoken words. There's probably more than one way we can express ourselves and I believe giving someone priority will trump any communication issues.


Speaking of eyes and kitties this is one of my favorite paintings:

Spoiler

I see disgust, amusement, dread, and desire all at once, pretty apt for how confusing signals can be sometimes.