Logic from a Christian perspective...

[Enola.Grey]

Logic...

In the beginning....

How were we formed? Was it the big bang? Maybe it was, and if so, what created it? What about evolution? If this is so, what created this concept?

It is because we can never know what invented the original form of matter, that I logically assume that a God exist.


Why I am a Christian...

Of all the possible religions in the world, I have found that Christianity is the only one to match common sense.

Imagine a perfect world, and living in that perfect world forever and ever. It is my thought that eventually you will get bored with this perfect reality. If this is so, then would imagine a not so perfect world would be the "vacation" of this perfect world.

However, to prevent mixing the worlds together, a neccessary judgement would be needed. This is where the concept and established rules of Christianity enter in.

In the Astral, when someone dies, their entire life is displayed before them. When this happens, every emotion and thought that that person has had, as well as all of the people they have influenced, is felt by the newly "dead" person.

If the person was evil, then they would feel the magnified emotions of the people they influenced; resulting in the feeling of guilt.

Guilt = Hell

If you have Jesus though, then you realize mid-thought that Jesus died for your sins and thus you do not feel the guilt.

Satan

It is said that Satan used to be a follower of God. If this is so, then logically can deduce that Satan is fully aware of his own demise and is actively seeking his own death.

The bible says he will be thrown to earth, and it is because of this that he will be subject to the same treatment and judgement that we are facing.

Myself

I can not wait to leave this world. I want to live in the world of Star Wars... as a Jedi...

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

I think somebody else should tackle Enola's "In The Beginning..." paragraph. Standard "but who created God? You're adding a needless step in the creation of the universe" atheist argument, please.

Why I am a Christian...

Of all the possible religions in the world, I have found that Christianity is the only one to match common sense.

Imagine a perfect world, and living in that perfect world forever and ever. It is my thought that eventually you will get bored with this perfect reality. If this is so, then would imagine a not so perfect world would be the "vacation" of this perfect world.

However, to prevent mixing the worlds together, a neccessary judgement would be needed. This is where the concept and established rules of Christianity enter in.

Why Christianity? Why not any other religion?

In the Astral, when someone dies, their entire life is displayed before them. When this happens, every emotion and thought that that person has had, as well as all of the people they have influenced, is felt by the newly "dead" person.

If the person was evil, then they would feel the magnified emotions of the people they influenced; resulting in the feeling of guilt.

Guilt = Hell

If you have Jesus though, then you realize mid-thought that Jesus died for your sins and thus you do not feel the guilt.

SO fun fact, when you die the psychedelic chemical DMT (which is produced in tiny amounts when we dream) is released in large amounts into our dying brains. I agree with you, I do think that people have their whole life flash before them and that they feel anguish were deserved.

But it's probably physical and normal.

But let's jump into the metaphysical nature of souls! I believe in reincarnation, and well... our believes aren't THAT different, mine are just developed a little different.

I agree that guilty people who believe they should suffer go to Hell. I also think that people who believe that they deserve to go to Heaven, to go to perfection, do go to Heaven.

Hell is clearly non desirable- and you also correctly described perfection as being not desirable.

You see... Heaven & Hell are BOTH dead-ends. They are soultraps, where people will spend millions and millions of years before they released they can escape.

As you would agree, real life is much more interesting than unending perfection. It provides the perfect stage for personal development, true love, happiness, joy, success, satisfaction, accomplishment. Afterall, what is white without black?

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Why Christianity? Why not any other religion?

I say this because I do not know of any religion to follow the same basis. Though some exist, I find that logic is not involved and they therefore cancel themselves out.

In the Wiccan and Pagan belief, there are many Gods. However, the characteristics of being a God mean to have no limits in what you can do. This means that two Gods that can not kill each other are not really Gods.

There are other religions, but you get the point...

SO fun fact, when you die the psychedelic chemical DMT (which is produced in tiny amounts when we dream) is released in large amounts into our dying brains. I agree with you, I do think that people have their whole life flash before them and that they feel anguish were deserved.

From Astral Projection, I have learned the body is nothing more then a vessel or a giant sensor for living in this world. You say that DMT causes a state of dream sequence, but if someone were to have their head destroyed, would they still experience the large amounts of DMT?

I think the DMT exhibited is just a product of death.

I believe in reincarnation, and well... our believes aren't THAT different, mine are just developed a little different.

I believe in reincarnation as well. It says in the Holy Bible numerous times about reincarnation, and it also aligns with logic, so I follow the logical belief.

I agree that guilty people who believe they should suffer go to Hell. I also think that people who believe that they deserve to go to Heaven, to go to perfection, do go to Heaven.

Exactly as I meant... if they truly believe that Jesus died for their sin, then they themselves do not go to Hell based on that belief.

You see... Heaven & Hell are BOTH dead-ends. They are soultraps, where people will spend millions and millions of years before they released they can escape.

I do not think they are traps really. I think you can choose to be anywhere you want. You need only think it and your there...

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

What passages of the bible discuss reincarnation? I mean... I've always got the impression that most catholics & protestants don't believe in reincarnation.

If anything, I wanted you to contend with Islam and Hinduism.

Islam admits that Jesus is a prophet, but is disgusted with the idea that Jesus is a son of a god- and if anything, Jesus being the son of God breaks the monotheism that you so prize. (Holy Trinity? WTF?) Islam also deals with paradise.

One of Hinduism's creation stories goes like this: Brahman was existing, and he was bored, so he started playing games. He would try to play Chess against himself, hide-and-seek against himself, all kinds of things. But he was never successful, because he was totally connected with himself, and always knew the answer, and could never really hide anything from himself.

So he blew himself into a bazillion pieces! And that's what we're living in right now. All Gods in hindu tradition are just face(t)s of Brahman- so they don't violate your monotheism. We will return to the perfection you were talking about, when we are all united again after billions of years. Until then... Ready or not, here I come!

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

How were we formed? Was it the big bag? Maybe it was, and if so, what created it? What about evolution? If this is so, what created this concept?

*twitch*

It is because we can never know what invented the original form of matter, that I logically assume that a God exist.

Who says matter needs to be 'invented?' This is a textbook example of taking an unknown and saying 'god did it,' simply because you cannot figure it out. People have done this all throughout history and been proven wrong when science gave them a reason for their divine occurrence; how is this any different?

Of all the possible religions in the world, I have found that Christianity is the only one to match common sense.

wha? really? Have you read the bible?

If it does match your common sense, consider your culture. I'm willing to bet your probably from the US and your surrounding society is heavily influenced by Christianity. It's not that Christianity is logical or makes sense, it's just not new, surprising or out of place. In the same way, if you lived in an African tribe you would believe in the local superstitions and spirits.

edit: Admittedly you have an odd take on it, and all the Christians I know wouldn't consider your beliefs viable.

Imagine a perfect world, and living in that perfect world forever and ever. It is my thought that eventually you will get bored with this perfect reality. If this is so, then would imagine a not so perfect world would be the "vacation" of this perfect world.

If it was truly 'perfect' you wouldn't get bored of it........
Though I understand how the Christian ideal of perfect (ie heaven) would get boring. Kissing divine cosmic ass would probably get as annoying as kissing regular ass pretty quickly.

If you have Jesus though, then you realize mid-thought that Jesus died for your sins and thus you do not feel the guilt.

How exactly does that resolve guilt?
Any morally conscious person would not be comforted by a some 'get out of guilt free' card.

Satan

It is said that Satan used to be a follower of God. If this is so, then logically can deduce that Satan is fully aware of his own demise and is actively seeking his own death.

Well what if he is so morally outraged by God, that even if he doesn't stand a chance he's willing to die.

Myself

I can not wait to leave this world. I want to live in the world of Star Wars... as a Jedi...

Any reality with George Lucas as it's divinity frightens me very much.

 

[Starfruit M.E.]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

That's an extremely broad and somewhat inaccurate overview of the topic. You leave out your defense of the majority of the book, while discarding large portions of it as being fallible and possibly inaccurate. If you want to follow pure logic, you can't even assume that what you are describing has anything to do with the Christian faith. Nor can you assume anything about your deity.... you can't assume that the deity is immortal or that the deity is generally good or bad.

All you really know from pure logic is that you perceive an earth, and that if it exists and follows the rules that you have observed in many other things you perceive, it probably came from somewhere. Where, you cannot say, other than that based on the rules you have observed in the things you believe you perceive, it probably was either random, on purpose, or a mixture of the two. You know the approximated chances of events based on these rules, and you then make theories as to what happened. Despite the approximated chances, however, you cannot actually eliminate any theory based on this because having a theory at all assumed things, and then the theories, no matter how improbable, could have occurred. Because you cannot assume that you know every possible solution to the problem, you can only create so many theories based on what you believe you know. So in the end, anything could have happened, and the one trying to use pure logic is left simply left with the impression that he is, and that he perceives.

Logic? Not the answer to life's problems. Certainly not a proof of what you are saying.

 

[flow]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Typos/Misspellings kill logic. Please, for the love of your god, it's pErspectives and the big baNg.

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

What passages of the bible discuss reincarnation? I mean... I've always got the impression that most catholics & protestants don't believe in reincarnation.

Well for one, Jesus is suppose to come back. But I will give another one...

Mat 17:10|13 And his disciples asked him, saying: Why then do the scribes say that Elias must come first? But he answering, said to them: Elias indeed shall come, and restore all things. But I say to you, that Elias is already come, and they knew him not, But have done unto him whatsoever they had a mind. So also the Son of man shall suffer from them. Then the disciples understood, that he had spoken to them of John the Baptist.

If anything, I wanted you to contend with Islam and Hinduism.

Islam admits that Jesus is a prophet, but is disgusted with the idea that Jesus is a son of a god- and if anything, Jesus being the son of God breaks the monotheism that you so prize. (Holy Trinity? WTF?) Islam also deals with paradise.

Well, think about it from a logical perspective. Did God create us or did he not? If he did, then we are his sons and daughters, logically. I do not know anything about a Holy Trinity, because it is not specifically in the Bible...

One of Hinduism's creation stories goes like this: Brahman was existing, and he was bored, so he started playing games. He would try to play Chess against himself, hide-and-seek against himself, all kinds of things. But he was never successful, because he was totally connected with himself, and always knew the answer, and could never really hide anything from himself.

So he blew himself into a bazillion pieces! And that's what we're living in right now. All Gods in hindu tradition are just face(t)s of Brahman- so they don't violate your monotheism. We will return to the perfection you were talking about, when we are all united again after billions of years. Until then... Ready or not, here I come!

I understand it from a logical perspective, but if this is so, then we should have some of that sort of power left in us. To test this theory, e should be able to telekinetically lift an object off the ground...

 

[Thread Killer]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

While I am a Christian, I would not myself say that it is more logical than other belief systems though from a personal stand point, I don't see how my belief in a higher power who some way, somehow created what we know is in itself illogical. It lacks proof, but then again, prove me wrong. Burden of proof? I don't care, this is what I believe. Tough tits if you don't like it.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Well for one, Jesus is suppose to come back. But I will give another one...

Mat 17:10|13 And his disciples asked him, saying: Why then do the scribes say that Elias must come first? But he answering, said to them: Elias indeed shall come, and restore all things. But I say to you, that Elias is already come, and they knew him not, But have done unto him whatsoever they had a mind. So also the Son of man shall suffer from them. Then the disciples understood, that he had spoken to them of John the Baptist.

I want to defer to Ashenstar here, she comes from a Jehovah's Witness background and might have something to say...

Well, think about it from a logical perspective. Did God create us or did he not? If he did, then we are his sons and daughters, logically. I do not know anything about a Holy Trinity, because it is not specifically in the Bible...

Yes, but Jesus has some special miracle powers and is not the same as you or I.

About the trinity, from wikipedia:

The New Testament does not have a formal doctrine of the Trinity and nowhere discusses the Trinity as such. However, Southern Baptist Theologian Frank Stagg emphasizes that the New Testament does repeatedly speak of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—in such a way as to "compel a trinitarian understanding of God."

I understand it from a logical perspective, but if this is so, then we should have some of that sort of power left in us. To test this theory, e should be able to telekinetically lift an object off the ground...

Hah! Just because we have pieces of Brahman doesn't mean we have telekinesis. Why did you invoke magic so quickly? There's no need for magic- we're magical enough as it is! Chemistry, biology, physics.... that's an amazing framework, and it's all just pieces of brahman interacting with eachother.

 

[Cognisant]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

In the beginning....
How were we formed? Was it the big bag? Maybe it was, and if so, what created it? What about evolution? If this is so, what created this concept?
It is because we can never know what invented the original form of matter, that I logically assume that a God exist.

That is not logic, you assume god must exist as the creator of the universe but you do not explain what created god, after all your "logic" is that something cannot simply exist, so either god was created by another god (ad infinitum) or we take the simplest answer which is that the universe simply exists.

Of all the possible religions in the world, I have found that Christianity is the only one to match common sense.

Is this a joke?

Look, if you're really devout and wish to remain that way then I'd suggest having a long conversation with Da Blob, now he knows how to argue theology, or if you want to know exactly how & why Christianity is a blight upon mankind, talk to me.

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

*twitch*

What I said makes God a possibility and Atheistic view will never be able to dismiss this fact, only paint over it and ignore the concept.

If it does match your common sense, consider your culture. I'm willing to bet your probably from the US and your surrounding society is heavily influenced by Christianity. It's not that Christianity is logical or makes sense, it's just not new, surprising or out of place. In the same way, if you lived in an African tribe you would believe in the local superstitions and spirits.

edit: Admittedly you have an odd take on it, and all the Christians I know wouldn't consider your beliefs viable.

Yes, I know. But there is a period in my life when I blindly accepted religion and compartmentalized religion apart from the facts of science. Many Christians do this now. After doing this, I eventually explored other religions and found the logic in them all were not really there.

I am an Astral Projectionist for one, so I can verify many beliefs.

Lots of religions have established rules. and the rules of Christianity are questionable at best; certainly not logical.

Actually, the reason I follow Christianity is because the rules are common sense. You have to think of them from the perspective of your parent or gaurdian saying "Do not touch the hot stove." There is no temptation when you know why to begin with.

Well what if he is so morally outraged by God, that even if he doesn't stand a chance he's willing to die.

Exactly... Is he to be admired? Probably... I do not admire stupidity though... Too many idiots in the world I live in already...

Any reality with George Lucas as it's divinity frightens me very much.

I want the world. I do not want him as God....

 

[Ashenstar]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

*stumbles in*

What am I supposed to be saying here? something about the JW beliefs on reincarnation?

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

To clarify, I was *twitching* at your spelling, not at what was said. Though I've been twitching at your 'logic' as well.

What I said makes God a possibility and Atheistic view will never be able to dismiss this fact, only paint over it and ignore the concept.

lolz No, that's actually what Christianity does. Your whole argument rests on the assumption that everything has to have an intelligent creator. You cannot prove this assumption, so logically, you cannot prove that which you say follows.

I would tackle your 'astral projections,' but that feels like a waste of energy. I couldn't convince an acquaintance of mine that she wasn't a lycan and this seems similar.

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

That is not logic, you assume god must exist as the creator of the universe but you do not explain what created god, after all your "logic" is that something cannot simply exist, so either god was created by another god (ad infinitum) or we take the simplest answer which is that the universe simply exists.

T be a God means having no limits, which automatically kills the idea of ad infinitum. To think that God can not create himself is to put a limit, which means he is not God because he has a limit.

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Yes, but Jesus has some special miracle powers and is not the same as you or I.

We have them already here too. Some people know how to use them, others do not.

YouTube- Nai Gong master John Chang

We are very protective of such knowledge because man is not advanced enough to know how to use such power correctly. When the penal system no longer exist, then man will be ready for such power. Until then, we remain in hiding...

About the trinity, from wikipedia:
Hah! Just because we have pieces of Brahman doesn't mean we have telekinesis. Why did you invoke magic so quickly? There's no need for magic- we're magical enough as it is! Chemistry, biology, physics.... that's an amazing framework, and it's all just pieces of brahman interacting with eachother.

So, your saying that this God blew up into little pieces, and in the process, he made it so that our powers were gone... Maybe... If he blew up, then no God can exist because to be God means to have no limits. Maybe God blew a chunk off of himself...

 

[flow]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

To think that God can not create himself is to put a limit, which means he is not God because he has a limit.

God created himself? Lolz. I can just imagine how that would go about.. "hmmm, I think I'll exist now."

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

God created himself? Lolz. I can just imagine how that would go about.. "hmmm, I think I'll exist now."

Yeah, it's an Enigma... Don't think to much, or you will divide by zero...

 

[Thread Killer]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

The nature of God and what he is...I don't think we could even fathom that one, assuming God exists to make that statement. I think I might dig up some Taoist texts for that one, but I don't think it's easy enough to explain as God made himself. It would make more sense, to me, to say that he simply is and has been and by being exists as the true infinite.

 

[flow]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

That's how my dad always explained god, that he is and always has been. And that as humans with finite lives we have trouble comprehending the infinite existence of god. I, however, don't believe life to be finite. Sure, the forms of this me may 'die', but the particles that I'm made up of forever exist.

 

[fullerene]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

*squrims*. Your logic is really poor... but you'll find enough argument from other people about that.

could you explain to me, then, how reincarnation sits with Hebrews 9? Particularly verse 27, but I just quoted the whole chapter for context's sake

 

[Da Blob]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Cool, it looks like you are working things out for your self, instead of relying on traditional doctrine.

Concerning reincarnation, I would like to point out a different point of view, that there were two men that never died (yet) according to Scripture. Those men are Enoch and Elijua, those are the ones 'returning'. They are not dead, never have been, but shall function as the two witnesses... They shall die as the rest of us to fulfill scriptures.

Concerning reincarnation 'experiences' such as described under induced hypnosis etc. Demons undoubtedly have memories of times spent in previous hosts. The memories provoked are not of the host's previous lives, but the demons'.

EDIT: beware, there are those that enjoy trapping believers into hubris....

 

[Thread Killer]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

The notion seems most pronounced in Buddhism. Not quite that we are reincarnated souls as another essence of our beings pass on into another form. I have no opinion, but my first beliefs that I remember having (I was barely past infancy) was that humans grew old and became infants again in some impersonal way. You can imagine the response I got when I was older and told my mother that (she is a devout Christian). Kind of funny.

 

[Ashenstar]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

*tosses Ecclesiates 9:5,10 into the conversation*

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

could you explain to me, then, how reincarnation sits with Hebrews 9? Particularly verse 27, but I just quoted the whole chapter for context's sake

Yes, I am using e-sword to read all the translations.

Heb 9:27 And as it is reserved to men once to die, and after this, Judgment; LITV

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed vnto men that they shall once die, and after that commeth the iudgement: Geneva

I think the new translations misinterpret the bible. With E-Sword, I am able to understand the bible from multiple interpretations and make them fit from a logical perspective.

In this statement, He speaks of the natural state and condition of man: For though Lazarus and certain others died twice, that was no usual thing, but extraordinary: and as for them that shall be changed, their changing is a kind of death.

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Cool, it looks like you are working things out for your self, instead of relying on traditional doctrine.

Concerning reincarnation, I would like to point out a different point of view, that there were two men that never died (yet) according to Scripture. Those men are Enoch and Elijua, those are the ones 'returning'. They are not dead, never have been, but shall function as the two witnesses... They shall die as the rest of us to fulfill scriptures.

Concerning reincarnation 'experiences' such as described under induced hypnosis etc. Demons undoubtedly have memories of times spent in previous hosts. The memories provoked are not of the host's previous lives, but the demons'.

EDIT: beware, there are those that enjoy trapping believers into hubris....

Forgive me, but I do not know most of the things your speaking about.

Admittedly, I have to rely on biblical references or I no longer become a Christian in thought, but a New Age person with my own thoughts. It is these dumb cultural Christians that do not think, so I am forced to have my doctrines related to actual versus in the bible.

I am interested in what your saying, I just ask that you use some verse, if it is okay with you.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Concerning reincarnation 'experiences' such as described under induced hypnosis etc. Demons undoubtedly have memories of times spent in previous hosts. The memories provoked are not of the host's previous lives, but the demons'.

EDIT: beware, there are those that enjoy trapping believers into hubris....

Shittttttt that's awesome. I'm seriously impressed, Da Blob. My single reincarnation memory-vision-thingy saw other people's lives, who had also been effected by a demon. But like... I saw it from the afflicted people's point of view, not from the demon's point of view. (And I thought the afflicted people were the same person as me, but in different lives.)

Not saying that you're right, I still love & believe in reincarnation, but you raise a good point.

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

*tosses Ecclesiates 9:5,10 into the conversation*

I love Ecclesiastes. This guy is explaining the time we live on earth will not be remembered in the future. He contends we should enjoy life to the fullest, but be wise so that our enjoyment is not impeded by mundane things.

Let me give you a good movie reference to understand...

YouTube- Blade Runner - TEARS IN RAIN [Hi-Res Video]

I feel like this guy sometimes. I know the truth, and the stupidity of man. I live in a world where man kill those who kill to make a statement about not killing. Technology is well within it's limits to make life automated so that we can enjoy it, and yet... man lives in fear and stupidity...

The story of every INTP's life... I think...

 

[Ashenstar]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

@ RT- Well, not that I hold the same belief, but that is what Christians(generally) really do believe. Demons are nasty horrible demented creatures who are all going to be destroyed and will do anything to take as many humans with them into destruction by turning them away from true worship.

Being raised JW I was warned over and over again against the allure of the occult and false beliefs, such as reincarnation. It was simply a demon trying to stumble me and lead me away from truth that would bringe the prize of everlasting life eventually.

 

[Thread Killer]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Yes. I have heard many times from Christians that there could be a demonic tie to it. Again, I have no personal opinion but I am glad to say I have had no memories of any past lives.

In any case, it's great seeing some intelligent Christians who do think with their own heads. Plenty who do but I get tired of people assuming our faith makes us idiots.

Um, yeah, tangent. (nice to see a YES fan, as well)

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

@ RT- Well, not that I hold the same belief, but that is what Christians(generally) really do believe. Demons are nasty horrible demented creatures who are all going to be destroyed and will do anything to take as many humans with them into destruction by turning them away from true worship.

Being raised JW I was warned over and over again against the allure of the occult and false beliefs, such as reincarnation. It was simply a demon trying to stumble me and lead me away from truth that would bringe the prize of everlasting life eventually.

The ?problem? is that the take-away message of my vision was that I need live life to my fullest, develop to be the best I can, help my brethren who might also be afflicted by the demon. Because I need to prepare for my next life, which will be in a warzone, will be incredibly taxing, and if I don't grow as much as possible in this life than I will let down my brothers in my next life.

And I dunno, it seems like a pretty positive take-away message. Maybe a tiny bit stressful, but it has a good and honorable goal.

 

[Ashenstar]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

@ op
I suppose you view Psalms 146:4 and numerous others the same way.

This in itself is one of the major flaws I see in the bible. We (as in people) argue its contents as absolute truths, when the interpretation is very much in the eye of the beholder. One, if open minded enough, could see this as something beautiful about the bible though.

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Do not think everything is negative. Even Satan has to mix truth with lies and thus if this is true, then we can learn much from Satan.

Of course, if your going to learn from Satan, it would probably be a good idea if you drank the dead sea while you do it.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Do not think everything is negative. Even Satan has to mix truth with lies and thus if this is true, then we can learn much from Satan.

Of course, if your going to learn from Satan, it would probably be a good idea if you drank the dead sea while you do it.

Who was this meant to respond to?

 

[flow]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Quiet RT, she's not talking to you! Now, what exactly does drinking out of the dead sea signify? I'm not familiar with this concept, but I'll bite.

 

[Ulysses]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

If you have Jesus though, then you realize mid-thought that Jesus died for your sins and thus you do not feel the guilt.

Provided that you're also comfortable with relinquishing that sort of responsibility.

Try this at home: drown a 5-month-old baby and then tell his/her mother that it's OK because Jesus died for your sin.

 

[fullerene]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Yes, I am using e-sword to read all the translations.

Heb 9:27 And as it is reserved to men once to die, and after this, Judgment; LITV

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed vnto men that they shall once die, and after that commeth the iudgement: Geneva

I think the new translations misinterpret the bible. With E-Sword, I am able to understand the bible from multiple interpretations and make them fit from a logical perspective.

In this statement, He speaks of the natural state and condition of man: For though Lazarus and certain others died twice, that was no usual thing, but extraordinary: and as for them that shall be changed, their changing is a kind of death.

I can save you some time/guesswork, there, if you want. blueletterbible.org has many translations, as well as the greek/hebrew words that were translated into those modern-day translations, definitions for the greek/hebrew, and lists of all the other verses where that greek/hebrew word was used.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Hbr&c=9&v=1&t=KJV#conc/27

Just click on the "C" next to whichevere verse, to look at it more in depth. I used to do the thing with lots of translations too, but Greek dominates english for things like this.

The word for "men" there is ἄνθρωπος, and by quickly looking over the list of other places where that word occurs, it doesn't seem to have a physical connotation at all. In fact, although most of them are ambiguous (could be physical or non-physical pretty easily), some seem to have a non-physical connotation. At least, right at the top of the list, there's that verse "it is written, man* shall not live by bread alone," which obviously isn't a statement about physical man.

So.... er... sorry, I still feel like I would be doing mental gymnastics with the verse to think that it didn't preclude reincarnation.

Not that it matters a whole lot to me, either way. I don't think I would live this life any differently if I knew another one were coming. Just trying to get a feel for your standard mindset for exe(/iso?)gesis.

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

@ op
I suppose you view Psalms 146:4 and numerous others the same way.

This in itself is one of the major flaws I see in the bible. We (as in people) argue its contents as absolute truths, when the interpretation is very much in the eye of the beholder. One, if open minded enough, could see this as something beautiful about the bible though.

This is more a parable then facts. It says to not put your trust in man, who put their trust in what they see and have no logical understanding.

Of course, only a select few went to Heaven at this time, so maybe they were meant to truly die...

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Provided that you're also comfortable with relinquishing that sort of responsibility.

Try this at home: drown a 5-month-old baby and then tell his/her mother that it's OK because Jesus died for your sin.

Ha, of course the true test remains in whether that person truly believes that Jesus died for their sin. If he did, then he will go to heaven, as it was stated.

This is not a "God will judge you type thing, but you will judge yourself" The thing is, because God is the architect of this concept, then he is "technically judging" man.

If man relives this experience when he dies, and he feels the emotions of the baby, whom he drowned... the more guilt that person will feel.

I imagine it would be harder for him to accept Jesus as his lord and Savior after committing such and act, but then again, in some cultures things like that are less bizarre.

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Who was this meant to respond to?

I'm sorry, I meant it for you.

I meant it because from what I know, the Dead Sea is mostly made up of Salt. I said it as "taking a grain of salt", only because it is Satan speaking, you would need a lot more salt.

I don't know the exact contents of the dead sea though...

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

I can save you some time/guesswork, there, if you want. blueletterbible.org has many translations, as well as the greek/hebrew words that were translated into those modern-day translations, definitions for the greek/hebrew, and lists of all the other verses where that greek/hebrew word was used.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Hbr&c=9&v=1&t=KJV#conc/27

Just click on the "C" next to whichevere verse, to look at it more in depth. I used to do the thing with lots of translations too, but Greek dominates english for things like this.

The word for "men" there is ἄνθρωπος, and by quickly looking over the list of other places where that word occurs, it doesn't seem to have a physical connotation at all. In fact, although most of them are ambiguous (could be physical or non-physical pretty easily), some seem to have a non-physical connotation. At least, right at the top of the list, there's that verse "it is written, man* shall not live by bread alone," which obviously isn't a statement about physical man.

So.... er... sorry, I still feel like I would be doing mental gymnastics with the verse to think that it didn't preclude reincarnation.

Not that it matters a whole lot to me, either way. I don't think I would live this life any differently if I knew another one were coming. Just trying to get a feel for your standard mindset for exe(/iso?)gesis.

I read from Bible Gateway and the free downloadable program e-Sword. Maybe I should look up Greek, but I am not that interested in being a historian on the subject. I just take it at face value and apply scholastic thinking to the subject. I usually go into depth more if I seem to have hit a road block in my thinking.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Huh I'm confused. What made you think I look at everything (or many) things as being negative?

I understand the rest of it. To fool us, Satan mixes from truth in with lies, and we should take what he says with a grain of salt. (Kinda like the savior-gods that came before Jesus. Like Dionysus, Mithras, Osiris and Odin. Satan did it!!!)
(and my tangent got me thinking, i gotta link to this video
YouTube- "The God Who Wasn't There" clip - The Christs Before Christ

oh and:
YouTube- Dr. Robert M. Price - Dying and Rising Gods

 

[Ulysses]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Ha, of course the true test remains in whether that person truly believes that Jesus died for their sin. If he did, then he will go to heaven, as it was stated.

Why? I don't see how belief in Jesus would counteract the emotion of severe guilt.

Referring back to the hypothetical scenario in my previous post, would this person have to put aside the anger and grief felt by the parents of the child?

 

[fullerene]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

hmm... take my warning, then: a lot of passages that are extremely unclear in english make a lot more sense looking at the greek words (John 21:16-17, 'love' is not the same word every time... english translations just sorta suck), or knowing the culture of the people who wrote it (Gen. 1:26-27, 15:12-20), that can seriously affect your understanding of who Jesus is and what, exactly, he came to do. More importantly, some passages mean the exact opposite of what they say "on face value" (Romans 9). Just saying... your thinking seems to be set up "I can understand, in part, without having to go there," but in my opinion, I think you can actually end up farther from what the authors intended than without reading anything at all, if you're not careful. And as Paul said, "be immitators of me, for I am of Christ"--so I tend to think that cconsidering what the authors intended is probably quite important.

Also

I meant it because from what I know, the Dead Sea is mostly made up of Salt. I said it as "taking a grain of salt", only because it is Satan speaking, you would need a lot more salt.

may have been the funniest thing I've heard in a long time. Thank you.

I'll leave y'alone and stop pestering you now.

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Why? I don't see how belief in Jesus would counteract the emotion of severe guilt.

Referring back to the hypothetical scenario in my previous post, would this person have to put aside the anger and grief felt by the parents of the child?

No, he would feel there emotions as well.

So logically speaking, yes, it is going to be extremely hard. However, because you ask God for forgiveness, and you know that to be a God means to have no limits, then I would imagine that God would be able to help you forgive yourself.

Jesus is the key or foot step to realizing that God will forgive your sins however, and if you do not believe that Jesus died for your sins, then you will believe that God will not want to save you.

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

Huh I'm confused. What made you think I look at everything (or many) things as being negative?

I understand the rest of it. To fool us, Satan mixes from truth in with lies, and we should take what he says with a grain of salt. (Kinda like the savior-gods that came before Jesus. Like Dionysus, Mithras, Osiris and Odin. Satan did it!!!)
(and my tangent got me thinking, i gotta link to this video
YouTube- "The God Who Wasn't There" clip - The Christs Before Christ

oh and:
YouTube- Dr. Robert M. Price - Dying and Rising Gods

I am not putting you down. I believe in reincarnation, and I also believe what you said about getting ready for your next life. Try not to get emotionally attached. Become a stoic:

"Let nothing cleave to you that will cause you suffering when it is torn away."

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

I am not putting you down. I believe in reincarnation, and I also believe what you said about getting ready for your next life. Try not to get emotionally attached. Become a stoic:

"Let nothing cleave to you that will cause you suffering when it is torn away."

okay um uh you said:

Do not think everything is negative.

and I was asking for some clarification? What exactly was negative?
I have a feeling there's some mutual confusion/miscommunication

 

[Enola.Grey]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

okay um uh you said:
and I was asking for some clarification? What exactly was negative?
I have a feeling there's some mutual confusion/miscommunication

The ?problem? is that the take-away message of my vision was that I need live life to my fullest, develop to be the best I can, help my brethren who might also be afflicted by the demon. Because I need to prepare for my next life, which will be in a warzone, will be incredibly taxing, and if I don't grow as much as possible in this life than I will let down my brothers in my next life.

And I dunno, it seems like a pretty positive take-away message. Maybe a tiny bit stressful, but it has a good and honorable goal.

You described it as a remote or questionable problem, so I felt that I should say something for you to listen to what was shown to you. To me, it seems you have a plot for your life and that with time and learning, you will be able to withstand the coming times.

I was suppose to help people survive the RFID, but currently I think I failed in that aspect. If the RFID comes mandatory, I will probably commit suicide and forego starvation. Maybe I will get to design my body next time, perhaps go to for a different world... much different then this boring world..

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

to put it in your terms... my mind is divided by zero, i have no idea what you're trying to tell me.

But committing suicide if RFID succeeds is a bad idea. Move to South America instead!

 

[asdfasdfasdfsdf]

Re: Logic from a Christian purspective...

I think somebody else should tackle Enola's "In The Beginning..." paragraph. Standard "but who created God? You're adding a needless step in the creation of the universe" atheist argument, please.

oh, you.

the idea is that God is super-natural, and doesnt have a creator.. he isnt necesarilly engulfed by the same "laws" that we have observed. that is the escape from the sequence.
there had to be something super-natural in order to not be created.