Lack of Emotion in the Face of Tragedy

[Enola.Grey]

Years ago, I was the victim of molestation. I do not mean to rub this in anyway, but I am curious about something and want to know why this is normal for an INTP.

You see, after this incident happened, I felt no emotion about the ordeal; almost to... okay, not almost, but to a point where I found myself "forcing out a reaction of hurt" or "anger and sadness".

I mean, I told the police a day afterwords and I did not really feel like I was the victim emotionally but was more embarrassed that I was sitting there talking about it.

I feel... empty. I have lived my life so void of emotion that I find that I do not have any when things happen to me... I mean horrible things that would make someone normally scream.

Maybe I am turning into a monster... What I mean is, anytime I normally see these traits, they are betrayed on television as the characteristics of a mass murderer. In reality, I would never hurt anyone in real life because my conscious would literally eat me alive, but there is a chance I will be entering into the military soon. What if killing people is all that I am required to do. How can I survive being "normal" after being subjected to that ordeal?

I am so devoid of emotion when bad things happen, I do not have the emotions that come with being in an ordeal...

Help... me...

 

[asdfasdfasdfsdf]

are you saying you have no emotions at all?
i have yet to hear of an intp like that.
most of us, as i have gathered from this forum.. often have very intense feelings, but they come in spurts..

read this:
http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=134635#post134635

 

[Enola.Grey]

No, this is to the point where control over my emotions has, I think, been transformed from a conscious effort to a subconscious effort.

 

[Firehazard159]

I wouldn't say I'm without emotion, however, in the face of tragedy, I tend to shut down emotionally. Of course, my life hasn't had anything truly tragic happen in it. I just know that events that typically make people sad, tend to not affect me.


I actually am entering the military, and if I do have to kill someone, I really don't see it being an issue for me. Of course, that could change the moment I'm actually holding a gun and aiming at a person, but at the same time... I know how easy to emotionally disconnect.

I don't know if there is any help for it. I've shared some of those thoughts though, about feeling monstrous and how I feel like I could actually be a killer easily enough, my conscious and chosen morality is what keeps me from doing anything. I sometimes find it comical... TV shows often portray NT types as being both admirable and hated, it seems like we're either the good guy or the bad guy, while everyone else is, well, just everyone else - average. Sometimes it seems the NT types are both the hero and the villain, it seems to be a commonly blurred line.

I'd say that our monstrosities or heroism comes from the decisions we choose to make, irregardless of our ability to process emotions like an 'average' person does, if that is even known (as to what the average is). In that regard, I don't think you need help, but, I don't really know, nor have I been through anything even remotely as traumatic as yourself, so I probably shouldn't even speak. But, this is my take nonetheless, for what it's worth.

 

[Starfruit M.E.]

I don't get upset when people die. I value life while it is here, but when someone dies and everyone turns them into a saint, I am mostly annoyed, and simply uncomfortable talking about it. I could be subconsciously burying my emotion, but I think that in some situations I deal with things by trying to reason or trying to think of what I could do different that would have changed things.
On the other hand, I also get annoyed when something is expected of me. For instance, if everyone expects me to grieve, I find myself frustrated and embarrassed when I don't. But if I am trying to force myself to grieve for their sake, maybe that's just messing myself up.
On the other hand, maybe that emptiness you are describing is your internalized feeling.
If I were you, I would think about it, but if you don't feel anything, I wouldn't force it. As long as you still care, I don't think it's a problem if you don't feel anything. It could be that trying to feel it is preventing you from letting the feeling come naturally. But I don't know. I hope you do well if you join the military. I don't think you're a monster.

 

[fullerene]

poor thing .... that sounds similar to something I posted fairly recently, but on another forum. It's not the same as your situation (I don't think anything horrible ever happened to turn me this way), but I think it's closely related to wondering whether or not you're a monster for your empathy-less reactions.

For what it's worth, it is nice to hear sincere people who I've grown to trust say that [emotional reactions and acting kindly out of empathy] is perfectly legitimate and real. I really wish I had a better memory, because I sort of wonder whether I fit that definition of a sociopath, at some point in my life/childhood. I'm pretty sure I don't anymore, but mostly because I've been consciously trying to force myself to feel upset for things I think I know to be wrong (such as children getting mistreated--but not arrived at empathetically at all), and it is starting to rub off into my normal state a little bit. Most of my not-being-psychotic in the past has been by pretty purely (or close to purely) intellectual choice, rather than because I actually cared for the people I would have been hurting. Like I said, though, I have been trying to change this.

If a psychopath truly believed a religion which made the claim that all evil leads to death, and all death is a bad thing, is it possible that they could end up avoiding the normal sociopath behavior that would normally draw attention?

And also, I think something Decaf said in another thread might be of a little comfort here...

I will note that the defense mechanism for rationals was listed as "The Robot". I think all of us have some experience with that. Our way of beating the unbeatable situation is to let it happen, but not participate emotionally.

So no, I don't think those pairs of traits are uncommon... or at least not unique. That's about the best I can say for sure... so hopeully it helps.

For what it's also worth, I have two extremely close NFP friends (one I, one E--they're almost stereotypes of their mbti types, although the E didn't know it. The I sort of uses it to hide because she thinks people'll respect a psychological system more than her personality) who promise me that you can change the way you feel about things, over time and with effort. You just have to figure out how you want to feel, and then try to feel it when the situation comes up.... just like you did. I can confirm this working to some extent, because I've been trying to make torture scenes/stories disgust me for a few months (just whenever they come up), and when I recently saw Inglorious Bastards, the scenes where they were carving swastikas into nazi heads upset me quite a bit. 's reasonably good progress, imo, given my post those few months ago, quoted above. I have actually also tried to force myself to feel hurt/sad/angry before too, when I suspected something had hurt me more than my conscious mind would admit that it had, but I don't think it's such a horrible thing. My first reason for thinking this is because it feels better afterwards, and my second reason is because I don't explode later if I make myself cry for a while over something. I suggest heading for the shower or something so that your noise is covered by the water, and nobody will interrupt.

your timing in joining the forum was really poor, though . The peron who would best understand you left quietly about a month ago, with no definite plans of returning (although, if you're lurking reading this, you'd better stop by eventually and tell me how you're doing. You know who you are )


Though I would say... if you're worried about turning into a monster like the stereotypical serial killers, then the best I can think to do is remind you of what eventually removed that worry from me about myself. Er... well, I was worried about myself developing serial rapist characteristics, and I actually saw an FBI profile documenting the four different types of rapists that pop up consistently, and I just was one of them . Same type of thing, though, developing dangerous traits even when you're pretty sure you wouldn't actually go out and act on it.

Quite simply, though: even if you're as much of a monster as you think you might be, and even if feeling as you do is as harmful/unpleasant/unlikable as you think it is, the truth still remains that your value as a person and self-worth lies not in what you are, but instead that it lies in the price which was paid for you soul--the blood of Jesus himself. And if God thought you were worth that sacrifice even if you're borderline-monsterous (coming to show love to us sinners as we are, rather than the angels or something else that's more righteous than us), then surely you need not worry and condemn yourself about it any longer. Satan gives us enough of that crap as it is.

work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

In short: rest in God's love, be at peace while he works in you, and view your situation as an opportunity to mature in understanding and develop experience recognizing that you're on the receiving end of a glorious gospel. Oh... and if it's of any practical help, I think that if you join the millitary, you're allowed to choose where they put you. I'm not positive, so you should look into it, but you might be able to join and say "I would like to be a medic," or something like that where you don't have to kill.

(also: thank you so much for making this thread! You've reminded me of something so that I now see I owe someone a massive apology...)

 

[EditorOne]

What did the counselors have to say about your reactions? And what kind of bad things are we talking about here? In my limited understanding, most people's emotional response to sexual assault is based in feelings of violation followed at some point by fear of social stigmatization that accompanies being the victim of a sexual crime in so many minds. An INTP might very well discount the stigmatization, on the other hand the violation of person should have pushed some kind of button for you.

Not grasping the importance of emotions for people and not experiencing the right emotion in the right quantity for the right reason might indeed be something we share to one degree or another with sociopaths, but you'd need a few more ingredients before I'd worry. A sociopath doesn't care that he doesn't speak the same emotional language as others. You do, obviously.

This is all admittedly superficial insight intended to reassure you you're not a freak, because you're not a freak. But you're not OK, either, by your own description. I'm going to take you at your word that you don't casually indulge in emotions like anger, and tell you you'd probably be INTP-smart to find professional help with this. It seems like you've got more on your plate than many of the rest of us have had to deal with, on top of being INTP, which I sometimes regard as a troubling disability and other times as a priceless asset.

 

[fullerene]

In my limited understanding, most people's emotional response to sexual assault is based in feelings of violation followed at some point by fear of social stigmatization that accompanies being the victim of a sexual crime in so many minds. An INTP might very well discount the stigmatization, on the other hand the violation of person should have pushed some kind of button for you.

I'm not actually sure there is a "most people" when it comes to sexual assault. At our college they offer classes/training in talking to people who were sexually assaulted, to provide a little free-peer-counseling service thing on campus, and they stressed that different people react wildly differently. Some people are angry and immediately want swift justice, so they're sharp, decisive, and would really only be talking to a counselor because they can tell you practical things like where to get a rape kit done, explain what it's like, and get them on their way. Other people feel like they can't make any decisions and don't really have any power in life, so you might have to be especially careful to ask them even for little things ("is it ok if I sit down?") just so that they start feeling like things are under their control again.

It's hard to say what the stereotype is, but something like "feelings of violation/victimization" is only one of many ways people can take it. Another really common one is a mind going in little logic-circles without getting there... and still other people feel like they're largely to blame for the whole thing ("if I'd brought a friend with me to that party rather than going alone...." or "I really shouldn't have been wearing those clothes at that time of night--I was basically asking for someone to abuse me")... which really makes you want to grab them by the shoulders, shake them, and say "no one asks to be abused!" Likewise, some don't really seem like they feel anything.


So that's also not "just an INTP thing" to find some way to rationalize a part of the "normal" responses so that they don't react in the same "normal" way. Everyone processes things like that differently, so we were pretty much told not to be surprised by any kind of response, because pretty much anything is as normal as anything else.

 

[Enola.Grey]

This was my first sexual experience with anyone. It is to my belief that I lost my virginity. I have never been in the forefront of any ones sexual mind and to have been taken advantage of was extremely confusing to me. It was my first orgasm with someone else being the catalyst.

In a way, I am more confused in that this person may have "been right for me", but I know that in my mind that it was for their sexual gratification... However, I was the only one to receive an orgasm, and this suggests that they were there for my sexual needs alone, as oral sex was the only act.

I am confused and embarrassed... Do I like this person? There is no emotional attraction for this person, and to my logic, I am to dislike being with this person... even if I do not have negative emotions for this person. However, there have been times when I have been turned on, and thoughts of this occurrence have replayed in my mind... regrettably making me more turned on.

I am confused...

 

[Schema]

I feel... empty. I have lived my life so void of emotion that I find that I do not have any when things happen to me... I mean horrible things that would make someone normally scream.

Maybe I am turning into a monster... What I mean is, anytime I normally see these traits, they are betrayed on television as the characteristics of a mass murderer. In reality, I would never hurt anyone in real life because my conscious would literally eat me alive, but there is a chance I will be entering into the military soon. What if killing people is all that I am required to do. How can I survive being "normal" after being subjected to that ordeal?

I am so devoid of emotion when bad things happen, I do not have the emotions that come with being in an ordeal...

Help... me...

Totally unexpected! Especially after all your seemingly passionate warnings posted re the government, (and to me they oozed emotions), so with such a passionate perspective ~ I would never have thought you of all people would ever contemplate joining the military ... it is the military service and not the militia you are thinking of joining?

 

[Enola.Grey]

Totally unexpected! Especially after all your seemingly passionate warnings posted re the government, (and to me they oozed emotions), so with such a passionate perspective ~ I would never have thought you of all people would ever contemplate joining the military ... it is the military service and not the militia you are thinking of joining?

Oozed emotions?

Please understand... the difference between a tragedy that has happened and a warning of what is going to happen is different.

I am more... "excited?" that I was able to figure out revelation of the holy bible. Now that I know, it is no different then me telling someone to stop playing on the train tracks because trains are bound to come. It is nothing more then a warning. If you "get hit by the train" then am I expected to have feelings for you? You chose not to listen, so it is your own stupidity to blame...

Maybe this falls under the category I spoke of before about my conscious eating me alive for killing someone, because in my mind, not helping someone in need is the equivalent...

 

[fullerene]

some questions, then: I don't expect you to answer in the slightest, if you're uncomfortable, but thinking about them may help give you things to think about and clarify the situation a bit.

how are you affected by other people being molested, in general? Before and after this situation? My (ex-ish... it's a bit messy) girlfriend has a theory that a lot of the "sicker" things (tortures, rapes, slavery, etc) sexually excite people simply because their body/mind so strongly hate the thing that when it happens, or when they witness it, the brain uses sexual excitation as a sort of defense mechanism to help deal with it.

Part of me says that might be wrong with you, because you said it didn't emotionally affect you that much, but if "people being molested in general" (or if it was something like by your father/babysitter and when you were younger, then "children being taken advantage of by authority figures" or things like that) would have upset you before, it could be. It seemed at least likely enough that I'd put it out there as a possibility, for you to think about.

You also said you were confused several times, but only really one reason why ('do I like this person?'). You also said that you're confused because they may have 'been right for [you]', but that seems quite similar to, or perhaps a thought that popped up during your times wondering why/whether you liked them? At least, it seems like a natural progression to me: "do I like this person? ...if I do, what if they would have been right for me?"

Again, not suggesting you do it in post-form unless you want to, but it might help your brain sort through things to try to write out exactly what you're confused about. Psychologically, putting thoughts and worries into concrete words helps "contain" them so that they don't overwhelm you. By the (admittedly shallow) observation that you said you were confused 4 times, but gave 2 (separate-ish... even those two are almost one) reasons why, it at least seems like either 1. you didn't want to share what you were confused about, or 2. you perceive a lot more confusion then you can attribute concrete cause to. Trying to put why you're confused into words may help because you'll either 1. better understand why it is that you're confused, or 2. realize that the only reason you're confused is because you're excited by something that you feel you shouldn't be. In the first case, you would gain understanding, and in the second case, you would gain a bit of peace of mind. In both cases your confusion is better quantified and contained in your mind if you can put words to it. Personally, I'm always tempted to write it off and think "I'm pretty bright... I can keep track of it in my head," but experience taught me that writing the thoughts down still helps a ton.


Another thing I noticed, which may be of help, is that your embarrassment might be contributing to your confusion. Maybe it's just me who feels like he's always being watched (er... and perhaps I'm right to think that?), but if I'm embarrassed enough by my own thoughts, I don't tend to analyze them very well because for some reason it just feels wrong to think them, which makes me uncomfortable and I stop.

So for that I can only offer encouragement. I'm at least one person who doesn't think any worse of you for being turned on by replaying that scenario in your mind. My guess, from my 2-ish years on the forum now, is that most other people here won't think any worse of you either. I can see why you would be embarrassed, and it's perfectly understandable, but I think that on the whole, admiration for the courage/honesty it takes to admit such a thing overwhelms any shame from being turned on by it in the first place. So.... chill, give yourself a bit of a break, and try not to be so ashamed... you'll think clearer. I can tell you with full honesty that not only do you not have the most to be ashamed of out of the people I've talked to, but you're not even out of the ordinary. You're probably doubting that because of "X,Y,Z" reasons you haven't mentioned yet, but I'm actually taking a few shameful secrets you may not have said into account, and I would still make that assertion.


Another thing you might want to hear: my sample size is fairly small, because I've only asked a few (2) girls who I've gotten to be good enough friends with to do it, but one of them, speaking both of her and her friends (and she's ESFJ, so she has lots of friends) agreed that the female orgasm is just somehow biologically(/spiritually, since she's a christian too) designed to put you into a long-term relationshsip with the giver. The other one (also ESFJ, but not christian and only speaking about herself) rejected the idea, but then immediately went on to tell me how the guy she first slept with is very "charming", and even though she knows he's bad for her, she kept having little flings with him, being hurt by them, but then only keeping away temporarily, then going back and trying to "see if it'll work" again, even though it clearly won't. Needless to say, I count her proof of the thing she denies.

I do not think guys have the same dependence... though it might just be because every one of them at least goes through a very-frequenty-porn phase in their teen years, which may desensitize us so badly that it just kills the natural instinct. It might also be what God meant by "your desire will be for your husband, but he shall rule over you." I don't know.

Nevertheless... when something like that is stolen from you, it may leave the lingering belief that a long-term relationship will work. It doesn't necessarily mean that you actually like the person, but if that's the way your body is wired, you might have a somewhat-artificial link with them. That's like... my top reason for not sleeping around--because I think it's extremely dangerous for the women you're with. If it weren't destructive, God wouldn't have warned against it.

 

[Enola.Grey]

I do not have any emotions toward rape or torture. (In fact, I do not like the thought of pain being involved with sex.)

The reason I am confused is because I had an orgasm, even though when it happened, I felt as if I was watching it in third person and my mind had went blank. Afterwards, I was confused because I knew it was wrong and that I should be offended, but I had came...

However, what you said about the first orgasm sounds like the issue I am having. Though I am still confused that I would have these emotions in the first place, even though it does not feel as if I am experiencing them...

I think it is because of a sort of enigma, if I can call it that. Before this happened, I wanted to try being in a relationship with someone. I spent years looking for a relationship, but no one was interested and I was pretty shy. Then to have this guy come along, and not only show interest in me, but also focus on bringing me to an orgasm...

Do you understand... the idea turns me off now, but at the same time I still come back to the incident.

I will keep what you said in mind though about taboos... I usually ignore the taboos of society but now that I have my own, things are harder to ignore...

 

[fullerene]

You probably already know from other experiences, since you qualified your statement "first orgasm with someone else as the catalyst", but those things do have the tendency to make your mind go blank, you know .

It's actually not too unusual for someone to orgasm while being assaulted... er... at all. If you just google something like "do women orgasm during assault(/abuse/rape)" you'll get lots of hits from people talking about their experiences (or peoples' experiences with adopted kids from abusive homes and stuff). This one in particular sounded like it fit your mindset to a T (as well as I understand you?). There really should be a link to the second segment it mentions at the end of the article, but for some reason there isn't. I found it here, which might help you out? I'm not sure. The little kids curled up into a ball looking like they're going to die from it doesn't sound like it fits your response, and it's directed towards parents adopting kids, but the first part seemed to match what you were saying so well that it's possible the "reassure your kid that..." things in the follow-up might end up being helpful too. If not, er... sorry.

I think being confused by emotions that you have, but don't seem to experience, is a very common INTP-based thing. I purposely try to make myself "experience" every feeling that I have, because it feels like I'm just rejecting a part of myself unless I do, but I don't think I'm the norm on that one. One of the older INTPs around here ought to be able to better explain their weird/disconnected experience of emotions, though. Although there are something like 5 large threads on the subject floating around here somewhere too...

 

[Jennywocky]

I will note that the defense mechanism for rationals was listed as "The Robot". I think all of us have some experience with that. Our way of beating the unbeatable situation is to let it happen, but not participate emotionally.

Already quoted once, but it bears repeating again and again. NTs in particular are very good at stepping away from our emotions and treating them as external objects. This enables us to survive some pretty horrible situations.... but it often means we feel emptiness later in life until we reclaim our emotions as part of ourselves rather than separate entities.

In terms of your sexual experience and the confusion: Confusion is a common reaction to molestation or child sexual abuse. The person feels violated, they were forced into sexual activity against their will; yet the experience physically also felt good on some levels, and now they are not sure what they should be feeling. Violation and physical pleasure get all mixed together, resulting in physical intimacy being all screwed up for years to come -- joy and guilt all become as one.

So accept this much: Your body is capable of feeling good while your emotions and mind feel bad. Just because your body responded doesn't mean what happened to you was right or good, if the context was inappropriate or you didn't want to have sexual relations.

I don't get upset when people die. I value life while it is here, but when someone dies and everyone turns them into a saint, I am mostly annoyed, and simply uncomfortable talking about it. I could be subconsciously burying my emotion, but I think that in some situations I deal with things by trying to reason or trying to think of what I could do different that would have changed things.

Actually, my emotional response is a crapshoot too. And when people get vilified or sainted after death, I get sort of ticked. I think it's partly my big-picture nature -- I think I just have come to learn how to face death and the natural life processes far earlier than most, who often live in denial -- so a death hits me differently than most. I can accept it at face value, other people finally are forced to face death in the face, and I think developing a villain/saint narrative about a dead person is one way they do it, to ease the blow.

On the other hand, I also get annoyed when something is expected of me. For instance, if everyone expects me to grieve, I find myself frustrated and embarrassed when I don't. But if I am trying to force myself to grieve for their sake, maybe that's just messing myself up.

True. They have no right to demand anything of you. Your feelings are your feelings. Everyone is different. If you don't feel it, you don't feel it. It might mean you need to resolve something, so later you CAN feel things... but the pressure is counter-productive.

 

[Enola.Grey]

I was not a child when this happened. I was twenty one|two|three?, and I was.... I won't go into details. I just think I should have had more sense about the situation...

 

[jhbowden]

How can someone be molested at 21 years old? That sounds more like sexual harassment and a lawsuit, e.g. Bill Clinton groping people.

Rape is extremely difficult if the woman fights back to the very end. What I'm going to say breaks one of the taboos of a feminized society. Unless the woman is drugged, beaten to death, held in a fixed position by a group of others, or coerced with some sort of weapon, it is appropriate to blame the victim, since the sexual act would not have occurred without the victim's participation. How's that for lack of emotion in the face of tragedy?



Seriously, if you voluntarily had sex with someone and felt bad and icky about it afterward, that's certainly tragic, but it is not rape. I don't care what the feminazis say.

 

[bluesquid]

How can someone be molested at 21 years old? That sounds more like sexual harassment and a lawsuit, e.g. Bill Clinton groping people.

Rape is extremely difficult if the woman fights back to the very end. What I'm going to say breaks one of the taboos of a feminized society. Unless the woman is drugged, beaten to death, held in a fixed position by a group of others, or coerced with some sort of weapon, it is appropriate to blame the victim, since the sexual act would not have occurred without the victim's participation. How's that for lack of emotion in the face of tragedy?



Seriously, if you voluntarily had sex with someone and felt bad and icky about it afterward, that's certainly tragic, but it is not rape. I don't care what the feminazis say.

Id say thats a hair harsh considering she isnt disclosing all the details. I wouldnt elaborate either.

Having said that, the more you deal with it now, the less it will imbue your latter life.

 

[jhbowden]

I'd say thats a hair harsh

I wouldn't, given the details of the story don't even line up neatly.

Who talks about this stuff to get attention anyway? This may even be a case of "I got drunk and did something stupid, poor me, pity me." If *you* were forcibly raped, would you be talking about it publicly with total strangers? Me neither.

And if you don't feel like you can take killing people, why would you even think about joining the military? Ugh. This entire thread is stupid. Color me skeptical.

 

[fullerene]

while I understand your skepticism, the way you're responding is just not rational, unless you're a complete asshole. I mean... consider

If you're right to be skeptical, and you respond skeptically, the person doesn't get to enjoy laughing at your or basking in the attention, the thread dies, and nobody really "gains" or "loses" anything.

If you're right to be skeptical, but you respond seriously, then the person gets to laugh a bit at your expense, or perhaps bask in the internet-attention and feed their ego a bit. But if they're good at faking it, then other people will feed their ego instead of you, and if they're bad at faking it then you'll be the only one feeding their ego, and eventually they'll tire of you and give it up. You're only one person out of the whole host of people they interact with, and nobody faking will be satisfied with that small victory. The only thing you loss is your public-image of competence at detecting lies--but you can keep the satisfaction of knowing that you saw through it, and were merely being courteous to take them seriously.

If you're wrong to be skeptical, and you respond sincerely, then someone who's been through a serious trauma manages to stick their head out into the world more bravely. I disagree that there's no reason to talk about something like that publically with strangers: forums are not public, and, though you might not know it, the anonymity of the internet is attractive to introverts. It makes communication easier, gives you time to think, lets you "up and walk away" if people pry too much, etc. Everything I've read/been taught/seen while talking to people is that support and encouragement do go a long way towards producing actual healing in a person... though your ENTJ not-really-heart might make you an exception. In this case, if you have a shred of respect/belief that people may heal/think/respond to situations differently than you, you can't deny the massive-win of helping someone who asks for it come to terms with things.

But if you respond skeptically, but are mistaken in your skepticism, your response is catastrophic. The person learns that not even annonymity helps protect them from however much it hurts to be taken as an attention-whore, forces everything back inside, and who knows how that will end up? Some people turn out "hardened" and productive members of society, but others commit suicide or turn into serial killers who hate the world.


So the question you're implicitly answering, when you decide to call someone out on anything personal, is simple: is the public opinion of your ability to sniff out liars so important to you that it's worth risking the damage it would to to someone else, when the benefits of being right are marginal and temporary?

Especially when your only real ccause for skepticism is that the person isn't acting like you would in the first place. You would rather not talk with strangers about these things? Your decisions are always perfectly consistent with your values, so there's no possible reason you can forsee yourself doing something against them? So what? That has nothing to do with how another person would act.

It's a very "no crime left unpunished" attitude... of which my ESTJ dad is the same way, so I have a special hatred in my heart for it. Given the political views of yours that I've seen, it seems like you would appreciate the fact that our (constitutional, not de facto) justice system is built on the premise that it's better to let a guilty person go free than to punish an innocent one. Why do you deviate from that here?

 

[Enola.Grey]

I wouldn't, given the details of the story don't even line up neatly.

Who talks about this stuff to get attention anyway? This may even be a case of "I got drunk and did something stupid, poor me, pity me." If *you* were forcibly raped, would you be talking about it publicly with total strangers? Me neither.

And if you don't feel like you can take killing people, why would you even think about joining the military? Ugh. This entire thread is stupid. Color me skeptical.

I was invited to someones house for a party. I thought it was real. I was not accepted by my "friends" that night, so the fact that he offered was good. When I got there, it wasn't really a party. His "friends" never showed up. It was more of a lure.

What makes it stupid and embarrassing is that I think I should have had the sense to know the signs, but I didn't. I even felt like leaving, but because my friends abandoned me, I did not have the heart to abandon him...

The next thing I know, a guy is reaching for my crotch. I am too surprised and afraid to move. It was like I was watching it in third person...

What do you want from me? This isn't a call for attention.

 

[jhbowden]

Enola, I would like you to do two things.

1. One, recognize that people who commit crimes against you deserve punishment-- if this was a legitimate case of rape, the perp should have gone to jail and you should have collected damages.
2. Secondly, start with a clean slate, privately identify the dumb things if any that you personally did (I do not want to hear the details) and never repeat them.

If you were really devoid of emotion, it would really be this simple.

If you're not devoid of emotion, but are feeling conflict -- something such as liking men but not trusting them, then I have a third request: take what is evident as evidence. Don't expect good behavior out of bad boys, pay attention to who is a smooth talker and who speaks honestly, etc. etc.

cryptonia--

I don't share your therapeutic assumptions about society. You as a religious man ought to know the difference between sin and trauma, redemption and coping, forgiveness and healing, and so forth. Since when did we replace Christ with Freud?

 

[warryer]

bowden: we have two choices here- believe or not believe. she has two choices lie or truth. Since we can only control our choices there is no use in speculating what hers are:

choices--------believe---------------not believe
===============================
truth-------we potentially----|- we do not help her in any way
-----------gave some helpful-|- even possibly make it worse
--------------information-------|- leave her still with questions
====================|==============
lie---------we feel sleighted--|-no harm no foul
------------but this is-----------|-fail troll fails
------------the internet so----|
------------who cares?----------|

(Think of it like a table ^)

@enola:

Live and learn. There are always going to be toxic people out there.

You say you are strictly logical, then why did you stick around when you wanted to leave?

My guess is that your inner resolve crumbled. This is probably a lack of self confidence, which may be the reason you want to join the military to gain more self confidence or self esteem? If so then I can tell you that this would be a false sense of security since you are buying into the respect that the military gives you and not what you give you.

I think you could benefit greatly by engaging in competition. If you win then you know you are the best amongst those who competed. If you lose then you have some definitive goals to work towards. Either way self esteem and confidence grows.

Competing against others may not be a good place to start so I would suggest that you challenge yourself. Find a skill or goal and work to complete it.

You cannot let yourself crumble like that again. Nobody else is going to look out for you except you, there are exceptions of course.

I was very close to my breaking point after a three year streak of bad happenings. I learned a lot about myself. And as they say what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. I am living proof of this statement.

 

[fullerene]

cryptonia--

I don't share your therapeutic assumptions about society. You as a religious man ought to know the difference between sin and trauma, redemption and coping, forgiveness and healing, and so forth. Since when did we replace Christ with Freud?

I'm really sorry, because I feel pretty dumb for having to ask, but what the heck are you talking about? I don't think you know Christ, and I know I don't know much about Freud, but I'm also not sure what theraputic assumption about society you're talking about--so your point didn't sink in at all. Is it that you don't think that other people in society can have a theraputic/destructive influence on someone, or something else?

 

[Enola.Grey]

Enola, I would like you to do two things.

1. One, recognize that people who commit crimes against you deserve punishment-- if this was a legitimate case of rape, the perp should have gone to jail and you should have collected damages.
2. Secondly, start with a clean slate, privately identify the dumb things if any that you personally did (I do not want to hear the details) and never repeat them.

If you were really devoid of emotion, it would really be this simple.

If you're not devoid of emotion, but are feeling conflict -- something such as liking men but not trusting them, then I have a third request: take what is evident as evidence. Don't expect good behavior out of bad boys, pay attention to who is a smooth talker and who speaks honestly, etc. etc.

cryptonia--

I don't share your therapeutic assumptions about society. You as a religious man ought to know the difference between sin and trauma, redemption and coping, forgiveness and healing, and so forth. Since when did we replace Christ with Freud?

I thought I made it perfectly clear that bad things that happen to me are not felt. I do not recall saying that I can not enjoy happiness every once in a while.

That's why the thread is called "Lack of Emotion in the face of Tragedy".

The fact that you feel offended of this makes me think that you suffered something similar. Perhaps your offended because I am willing to share my past in the forum while you are not.

bowden: we have two choices here- believe or not believe. she has two choices lie or truth. Since we can only control our choices there is no use in speculating what hers are:

choices--------believe---------------not believe
===============================
truth-------we potentially----|- we do not help her in any way
-----------gave some helpful-|- even possibly make it worse
--------------information-------|- leave her still with questions
====================|==============
lie---------we feel sleighted--|-no harm no foul
------------but this is-----------|-fail troll fails
------------the internet so----|
------------who cares?----------|

(Think of it like a table ^)

@enola:

Live and learn. There are always going to be toxic people out there.

You say you are strictly logical, then why did you stick around when you wanted to leave?

My guess is that your inner resolve crumbled. This is probably a lack of self confidence, which may be the reason you want to join the military to gain more self confidence or self esteem? If so then I can tell you that this would be a false sense of security since you are buying into the respect that the military gives you and not what you give you.

I think you could benefit greatly by engaging in competition. If you win then you know you are the best amongst those who competed. If you lose then you have some definitive goals to work towards. Either way self esteem and confidence grows.

Competing against others may not be a good place to start so I would suggest that you challenge yourself. Find a skill or goal and work to complete it.

You cannot let yourself crumble like that again. Nobody else is going to look out for you except you, there are exceptions of course.

I was very close to my breaking point after a three year streak of bad happenings. I learned a lot about myself. And as they say what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. I am living proof of this statement.

Before this happened, I was... and in a way I still am, merciful. I can't stand to see people suffer. It was perfectly logical in my mind to stay and not be a hypocrite.

I am joining the military because my father is kicking me out. I was planning on going to college, but now I face homelessness. I do not have a choice...

 

[Infinite Regress]

I am joining the military because my father is kicking me out. I was planning on going to college, but now I face homelessness. I do not have a choice...

imho, you are joining the military for the wrong reasons.
And why is your father kicking you out...if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Cavallier]

you are joining the military for the wrong reasons.

I really want to agree with you on this one but I can't bring myself to. Sometimes when you are falling the best you can do is aim for the softest looking patch of rock you know?

 

[Enola.Grey]

imho, you are joining the military for the wrong reasons.
And why is your father kicking you out...if you don't mind me asking?

That's just it. When his wife first came here, we did not get along because of religious differences. She has compartmentalized religion, even though my father and I were advent Christians. She's catholic, and after minor complaining to her about her hypocrisy, she disagreed. What makes it interesting is that when I went to her own church, her own pastor taught about hypocrisy in the church. She has held a grudge ever since.

I don't even know why she hates me any more though. We haven't spoken in over a year and I hear that she is still talking about me behind my back, trying to twist my father.

At one point, she said to my father a few months after she married my father that he would have to choose between her or me. I don't interfere with their relationship. We only work on the business, (which she said she is totally against)

At first my father yelled at her and told her to talk to me about her issues and stop talking about me behind my back.

Now after a year, my father has slowly but surely turned into the one he married. He even sounded like her at one point when he complained that he couldn't wait till I was gone. I don't even know the reason, and I have asked repeatedly.

Now, because my father and I had a small difference in thinking about religion, he basically set a time-line for me to leave. I have no where to go. The last time I lived on my own, I was molested...

She women has taken my only friend who understands me. Now we live in a superficial relationship until I am gone. Needless to say, I am tempted to get back at her....

 

[warryer]

I don't really follow. How does this show you being merciful?

Are you sure that the military is the only option? Have you looked into getting student loans? I mean if you really wanted to you could just go live in the woods (Seriously though I've thought about it).

Anyways I think I am probably missing the point of this thread.

 

[EditorOne]

Warryer,

You may be missing the point of the thread but your analysis of why it is logical to respond to certain posts was spang on the money.

Enola, just to clear up one misconception you may have, rape and molestation occur in the military. It is an extension of society, not a refuge, except economically. It is, on the other hand, a place of order and discipline and high organization around focused goals, and a lot of folks benefit from the experience. It is not necessarily designed with INTPs in mind, though, since the orientation phase especially is run by braying extroverted anal retentives operating on the premise that they can get the personality they need for the military life by breaking down whatever you arrive with and reshaping it into the one they want. The incident that struck me as the epitome of military thinking was told to me by a friend who joined the Marines. In the middle of the night, in a raging thunderstorm, the training sergeants turned out his barracks with orders to water the lawn. It made no sense. Neither does charging a machine gun nest. The object of the exercise was to get them used to obeying orders they considered stupid. I can't think of anything less appealing to an INTP than being ordered to do something that is, on the very face of it, stupid.

If you can get through basic and don't have any immediate contact after that with the kinds of career bullies and mental flyweights who are sprinkled through the military hierarchy, you might find it rewarding. At some point you advance in rank enough to acknowledge the bullshit as bullshit and do what you can do well, think of good solutions to nuts and bolts problems and create new concepts and processes for getting things done. General Eisenhower / WWII was very INTP-like, even if it was somewhat masked. So was Ulysses S. Grant/American Civil War, who saw the key points needed to end the war he was in and finally attained a high enough position to make it happen. There are INTPs in high rank in the military today of lesser profile, probably working as Number Twos rather than Number Ones and getting stuff done with their brainpower and Number One's clout.

Just tossing out a couple of divergent themes, linked by the idea that the military needn't be a desperation measure but an opportunity if you know the costs going in and are willing to pay them.

We appear not to have established what country you are in. Just wanted to point out that we have Vista and other organizations and programs around here that don't pay much but do give young people a chance to help others less fortunate, in structured programs. An alternative to the military.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Spidey sense says to avoid. Something is most not right here.

So what have I missed this past week other people whom I know?

 

[Polaris]

I don't think asking the forum for help is the best idea, although it may be comforting to get some support. You need professional help. You are not to blame, and there is nothing wrong with your confusion. Confusion and self doubt are clear signs of trauma, and it sounds like you are suffering post-traumatic stress symptoms. The longer you leave it, the more it will destroy you. Don't deal with this alone, because no-one is an expert in fixing their own traumas.

 

[Starfruit M.E.]

I agree... if that is what is going on, you shouldn't try to deal with that alone. If it isn't, it would still do you good to be able to talk to someone who knows how to help you.

 

[echoplex]

Well, for what it's worth, I can relate to feeling a sense of powerlessness and feeling as if I couldn't fight back. Especially when I was younger, I would hardly try to defend myself if someone tried to pick a fight. It's as if I didn't feel I was (not sure of the right word) worthy (?) of defending. That probably doesn't make sense, and it never made sense to me either, but I've tried to intellectualize it for years just to figure out why I'm that way. I just always had a tendency to freeze during anything even slightly traumatic, as if I "wasn't there" and the whole third-person thing you mentioned.

This is why I count myself lucky for being a tall male. No one ever really bothers me, but if I was in a more vulnerable position like you described it would be hard for me to resist, especially if there was a part of me that somehow enjoyed it. (wonders about the difference between "part of me" and "me". Identity questions bug the shit out of me...ugggh)

I guess it's possible to both like and strongly dislike an event. "Confusion" seems the automatic way to describe it, but I think it's also a matter of perspective. We are capable of recognizing the redeeming qualities of even the most unpleasant things, and it's puzzling (yet fascinating) to me how we choose what to accept and what to reject. Which perspective do we latch on to? I don't think the choice is always obvious, especially when powerful emotional forces seem to be absent from the equation. I mean, it's scary, but if "bad" things don't feel "bad", you have to wonder how much harder it is to still recognize them as "bad". In the right (or wrong?) view, tragedy can just be another afternoon stroll in the park. It happens everyday; people die, people hurt, things get eaten, societies collapse. Without emotion, what makes these things seem tragic?

Sorry for rambling and not helping.

 

[bluesquid]

wow, are all INTP's this cold hearted?

Its just words for us, not reality. Just try to help the poor girl. I have never understood being a TOTAL D bag, just to be right.

Not talking about you specifically enola...

Who the fuck cares if what you read on here is real. Take it or leave it. But for gods sake if someone asks for some help, dont textually shit in their hand.

The only personal reality I derived from this thread is that Bowden is a classic example of why many INTP's die alone. Every single thought isnt a fucking thesis. You dont have to be right, you have to have perspective. proportion is just as important mentally as it is physically. A guy with a big head and big feet thats 7 foot and weighs 100 lbs. is much more attractive than a MILF slapping a toddler, for running in the street.

 

[EditorOne]

"The only personal reality I derived from this thread is that Bowden is a classic example of why many INTP's die alone"

Bluesquid, I know you didn't intend this result, but I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read this. Bullseye! We've all got that tendency toward relentless analysis to take into consideration, some know when it's OK to curb it and others don't.

 

[Kuu]

The only personal reality I derived from this thread is that Bowden is a classic example of why many INTP's die alone.

I also rofl'd but because if I recall correctly, jhbowden isn't INTP... Also, your reaction itself was completely uncalled for... decrying lack of emotion in the face of tragedy in the "lack of emotion in the face of tragedy" thread in intpforum where people prize discussion that is as detached and objective as possible...
Get a grip bluesquid.

How can someone be molested at 21 years old? That sounds more like sexual harassment and a lawsuit, e.g. Bill Clinton groping people.

(...)

Seriously, if you voluntarily had sex with someone and felt bad and icky about it afterward, that's certainly tragic, but it is not rape. I don't care what the feminazis say.

I actually agree with that. As I read the story, particularly the latter details...

I was invited to someones house for a party. I thought it was real. I was not accepted by my "friends" that night, so the fact that he offered was good. When I got there, it wasn't really a party. His "friends" never showed up. It was more of a lure.

(...)

The next thing I know, a guy is reaching for my crotch. I am too surprised and afraid to move. It was like I was watching it in third person...

Call me an insensitive douchebag too, but unless there are more things to the story, it sounds more like ambivalence in the face of an unexpected sexual advance, and post-act regret, more than sexual assault....

If somebody suddenly touched me in the crotch, and I didn't say no or push them away or kick them or run away screaming or any of the myriad other expressions of dissatisfaction, discomfort and negation... but I just sat there and let it happen... then I wouldn't dare to seriously call it rape afterwards.

I guess people can retroactively deny sex now...

 

[fullerene]

no, haha kuu is right... bowden isn't an INTP. He's an ENTJ

 

[Polaris]

Enola has reached out for help. If people here are not interested in helping, they would be better off not responding to this thread rather than trying to egotistically prove a point that is based on very little background information. If something like that happened to anyone,of course it would be hard to be detailed and open about it. Why on earth would she create a thread about it if it was not a problem? Of course it is a cry for attention, because the attention she needs is one of support, and not criticism, INTP or not. She has not responded for a while, and I fear we have put her off, or caused even more harm.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Enola has reached out for help. If people here are not interested in helping, they would be better off not responding to this thread rather than trying to egotistically prove a point that is based on very little background information. If something like that happened to anyone,of course it would be hard to be detailed and open about it. Why on earth would she create a thread about it if it was not a problem? Of course it is a cry for attention, because the attention she needs is one of support, and not criticism, INTP or not. She has not responded for a while, and I fear we have put her off, or caused even more harm.

Imagine for a moment someone finds in the depths of the Amazon a rare frog. A frog so rare it is the only one of it's kind known to exist. Give that frog to people like us and the first thing we do is to automatically throw it into the ol' dissecting tray and peel it apart piece by piece for study. It's only later on that someone comes and shouts "Damnit! You killed the frog!" Sometimes we are chagrined, sometimes not.

When I came back last night after almost a week away, I logged on and hit new posts as I am wont to do and this thread was the second or third I opened. It was started by a name I hadn't seen before and the first thing I looked at was the name, avatar (or lack thereof) and the post count of well over 100. The first red flag right there. I read the OP and right off the bat my eyes opened a little at the personal nature of it. Had this new person immersed hirself so well as to feel comfortable enough for such a post so quickly? (second red flag) I didn't read any responses as I decided to look around at what I had missed a little more first. Within an hour or so of looking around I saw some (not nearly all I admit) of EG's posts and the next thing I know I feel like I am at a communist pride parade there are so many red flags.

Now none of this is enough for me (or anyone else for that matter) to make any judgements. This whole thing may be quite legitimate for all any of us know. However for those who remember the many faces of 13, any skepticism here is understandable (perhaps we haven't gotten over that yet).

When I came back to read this thread and saw denials about seeking attention I guffawed a bit. Anyone who has put up that many posts so quickly isn't exactly trying to be the party's wallflower. It's also pretty fair to say that someone who posts so frequently right out of the box isn't so easy to just skip over reading. So I don't know. I do know that when you are part of a group of friends talking and someone no one else knows comes in and takes over the conversation (figuratively speaking) then some negative reaction might occur. We all here for the most part however are prone to making social gaffes so perhaps no one here should be so harsh. Again, I don't know.

Cryptonia's last long post may describe the best way to handle such a thing. So Enola? If you're still out there then I hope the best for you whatever is going on. We here may not be the best equipped for figuring some things out. At least not right away.

 

[bluesquid]

no, haha kuu is right... bowden isn't an INTP. He's an ENTJ

I didnt look at his sig apparently. chronic for INTP's, common yet less developed in others??

seriously, only a true a hole would really care enough to take the time to type out a long winded "stop whining"

 

[Polaris]

Imagine for a moment someone finds in the depths of the Amazon a rare frog. A frog so rare it is the only one of it's kind known to exist. Give that frog to people like us and the first thing we do is to automatically throw it into the ol' dissecting tray and peel it apart piece by piece for study. It's only later on that someone comes and shouts "Damnit! You killed the frog!" Sometimes we are chagrined, sometimes not.

When I came back last night after almost a week away, I logged on and hit new posts as I am wont to do and this thread was the second or third I opened. It was started by a name I hadn't seen before and the first thing I looked at was the name, avatar (or lack thereof) and the post count of well over 100. The first red flag right there. I read the OP and right off the bat my eyes opened a little at the personal nature of it. Had this new person immersed hirself so well as to feel comfortable enough for such a post so quickly? (second red flag) I didn't read any responses as I decided to look around at what I had missed a little more first. Within an hour or so of looking around I saw some (not nearly all I admit) of EG's posts and the next thing I know I feel like I am at a communist pride parade there are so many red flags.

Now none of this is enough for me (or anyone else for that matter) to make any judgements. This whole thing may be quite legitimate for all any of us know. However for those who remember the many faces of 13, any skepticism here is understandable (perhaps we haven't gotten over that yet).

When I came back to read this thread and saw denials about seeking attention I guffawed a bit. Anyone who has put up that many posts so quickly isn't exactly trying to be the party's wallflower. It's also pretty fair to say that someone who posts so frequently right out of the box isn't so easy to just skip over reading. So I don't know. I do know that when you are part of a group of friends talking and someone no one else knows comes in and takes over the conversation (figuratively speaking) then some negative reaction might occur. We all here for the most part however are prone to making social gaffes so perhaps no one here should be so harsh. Again, I don't know.

Cryptonia's last long post may describe the best way to handle such a thing. So Enola? If you're still out there then I hope the best for you whatever is going on. We here may not be the best equipped for figuring some things out. At least not right away.

I was also sceptical and even a little annoyed at first.....but then I realised there was something else going on. I just read the posts and waited. Then this thread appeared. I felt almost obliged to respond. That is just how I work. I gave her the benefit of doubt. I have not experienced the multi-persona phenomenon, as I haven't got much internet interaction experience, so I guess I get sucked in more easily. But to me she seemed real enough after reading all her posts. I sensed a person going through some pretty messy stuff, and I don't like to see anyone suffering that much. I guess, deep down I love people, no matter how much they may irritate me at times. You are right IB, we are all just human beings fumbling around with interesting frogs.



I too hope you are okay Enola, whoever you are.

 

[fullerene]

I'm actually not even sure if his signature was the same when I wrote that either XD. My eyes glaze over those mypersonality things because they're so common, generally all the same, and don't actually tell you anything about the person. I only know bowden from ENFPforum, where he's a regular and better-known ENTJ.

Just so you know, I had all the same suspicions, IB. I also got the 13 vibes, the avatar looked like it was asking for trouble, she had 20-some posts within a few hours of joining, brought up highly-controversial issues (tho she was met by a mysterious lack of conspiracy theorists, so it didn't exactly cause much division), etc.

So yeah, the flags/warnings were obvious. However, a few times when I called her out because I was upset by her responses (off-topic/irrelevant, sparse, whatever) she did respond courteously and answer questions. She wasn't too insulting, and also has an account on INTJforum where she came with the same alex jones stuff and warnings about the RFID/end of the world and everything as well.

I get the impression that those red flags came from hearing someone talk who was sincere, but pretty brainwashed. I wouldn't have been surprised either way, though, tbh. I think your description of someone new who comes into a group and takes over the conversation is accurate, so I wouldn't be upset at anyone who she annoyed either. I do think it's extremely dangerous to call someone out in the middle of asking for help about such a sensitive topic, though. I feel like there were plenty of other threads you could have more safely argued on, for all the reasons I mentioned before.

*shrugs*... judging by the fact that the avatar was taken down (she said it was a picture of her), I think it's irrelevant because that's probably her way of packing up and moving on.

 

[Infinite Regress]

I really want to agree with you on this one but I can't bring myself to. Sometimes when you are falling the best you can do is aim for the softest looking patch of rock you know?

Yeah, as subsequently discussed, EG seems to have several issues that need to be addressed before being in the right frame of mind to join the army.
My bro is in the army and I spoke to him regarding this - his opinion is that most who bring baggage don't tend to last.

It's the reason I asked about EG's domestic dilemma before offering suggestions, but it seems she has drifted off...I hope to better pastures....

 

[echoplex]

Even if it isn't "real", the discussion is still interesting. Plus, I doubt that anyone would discuss such things unprovoked if they didn't at least have strong feelings on the topic, and it's likely, no matter what, that they have some kind of negative experience (or know someone who has) or else I just don't think they would be talking about it (at least not to this extent).

Even a false online persona is essentially a mask made by a real person, and the contents of that mask are undoubtedly a reflection of that person, even if the details are "false" in some way. Of course, we would all prefer to know we are talking to someone who's being completely honest, but do we ever know that? Isn't doubt a part of any online community? In some sense, to me at least, even when there's strong (reasonable) doubt, there's still something "real" going on. Maybe not, and maybe I underestimate people's potential to deceive, but I think something genuine always finds its way into someone's persona, even when they're trying to be fake.

Of course, that doesn't mean it can't be highly annoying and divisive.