knowing thinking learning sensing

[sushi]

what is the relationship between these four things

what comes first and what comes last

how does the mind and brain relate to all this?

they all so similar and can be confused with thinking

 

[Hadoblado]

Reality isn't turn-based.

 

[Cognisant]

The ability to think without taking action is fairly uncommon thing in nature, most reptiles insect and fish can't do it, which seems strange y'know how does something act without thinking, doesn't thought precede action?

Well intelligence at its most basic is a creature's ability to modify its behavior to adapt to changing circumstances, very simple insects can't do this their minds consist entirely of If-Then statements. More complex insects and reptiles can adapt their behavior but they can't stop and think about it, they have to learn by making mistakes, like eating something that bites them in the mouth they'll try it several times until their reluctance outweighs their enthusiasm.

For these simple minded animals action is an essential part of the learning process but more intelligent creatures can stop and consider their behavior, a bird that catches a spider may get bit once and thereafter thoroughly pulverizes every spider it catches before eating it. This is because it considered its mistake, identified the nature of the mistake (trying to eat something that can bite and wasn't completely dead yet) and armed with that understanding it developed a solution. Of course this only works because the bird already has some understanding of the difference between alive and dead, what it means for something to be dead and that spiders can bite, it may not have the "kill spider before eating it" breakthrough until it has all the pieces of the puzzle.

Humans are extremely good at this, we spend decades building up a (relatively) vast repository of knowledge and we use that knowledge to solve problems with leaps of intuition that are impossible for most any other species. But we still need to initially learn by taking action and even when we stop and think that itself is an action, an internalized action. We can imagine ourselves attempting various solutions and consider the benefits/consequences of those actions without ever actually taking them which is OP as fuck.

 

[Rook]

what hado said. it's all the organism.

 

[ZenRaiden]

You are pretty much asking how the brain works.

 

[Siouxsie]

Knowledge: we all build, it´s an artificial bunch of stuff we humans think is usefull or important, it isn´t really, it´s like a scam but it´s there. We give credit to it and that credit validates it.
Thinking: you achieve, I relate this to symbolic thinkng, it´s not given. To achieve abstract thinking is a matter of luck and developement.
Learning: well everyone can learn, everyone has this ability, in a big or smaller scale. It´s a process too.
Sensing: in a strict definition it would be percieving, but this is extremly ambigous too, because inner and outside world are an illusion, you can also percieve hallucinations.

I don´t see a direct connection. How do you connect this four?

PD: you reminded me of this

 

[sushi]

learning can be compared to uploading linformation to brain
thinking is processing releasing download informaion\

learn-> upload--> remember-- think/communicate--knowledge> download use

learning should come before thinking

what is learning vs thinking?
what is learning vs sensing?

how do these compared, they are often confused

 

[Hadoblado]

Spoiler

This might help a bit. Note that it's a loop and not a line.

Sensation is basically external, so it comes "first", but it's also continuous. You don't really experience sensation, you experience perception which combines memory and sensation to form meaning, belief, emotion, thought, new memories etc.. This is also one process of learning, as you are creating new memories from the integration of new perceptions.

However, perception does not always come from new sensory data. You could turn off all sensation, and then arrive at new perceptions and learnings from memory alone though this is less clear.

Knowing is IMO not really a useful category. It's just a belief in which you have substantial confidence. So knowledge and knowing is a result of learning.

Thinking is pretty broad, I don't feel comfortable rigidly defining it but I think of it as an operation involving working memory drawing from anywhere else.

 

[scorpiomover]

what is the relationship between these four things

what comes first and what comes last

Sensing => Thinking => Learning => Knowing.

Once you reach the end, you can go back to any earlier stage or later stage, to develop further.

how does the mind and brain relate to all this?

They relate to whatever seems most appropriate to the mind and brain.

they all so similar and can be confused with thinking

Sensing and Thinking are both used as abstract general-purpose problem-solving mechanisms. So they're like any 2 similar products you can buy. They offer the same basic features. So you have to distinguish between them, based on the quirks that they each have that the other doesn't.

 

[sushi]

What is learning and how is it related with thinking

it seems that there is a strong relation between reading and learning

you cant learn something without reading and observing first.

read-> learn think, read--> think learn

read--> learn --> understand--> think--. reproduce

we do it do subconsciously that we dont really aware of it

from my experience i disagree with above. i think learning comes before thinking.

learning --> knowing--. thinking

 

[sushi]

perception and reading--> learning and coding then thinking understanding

is what i get so far

 

[sushi]

learning is converting external into internal

external memory is converted to internal knowledge

or internal memory to external knowledge.

from memory to knowledge, and knowledge back to memory

 

[Black Rose]

Thinking is the ability to ask questions about a problem and then find/search for a solution/reason that resolves it.

Learning results from finding the solution, i.e. connecting the experience to an outcome.

Knowing is recalling memory as a simple fact you have stored inside you.

Sensing is awareness of some form of external or internal stimuli.

 

[sushi]

experience and memory becomes knowledge and observation

knowledge and observation becomes experience and memory

 

[ZenRaiden]

Learning in the western world is usually associated with writing reading and counting.
That is about 10 percent of what we humans can do.
90 percent of what we know is actually in born instincts.
In the west the 10 percent is how you survive, and we often sacrifice development of the 90 percent of instinctive knowledge at the altar of 10 percent of what makes you survive.

I was never really taught how to throw a ball, or run or swim or anything.
None of these activities can be taught actually. They are instinctive almost 100 percent.
I was only shown that it can be done, then I did it until I calibrated my body and mind to do these skills effortlessly.
But no one can really teach you how to walk really. You just have the instinct and give people time to develop it.
Same goes for language. 90 percent language is instinct. 10 percent is grammar and analysis.
Most people live on instinct anyway.

So when people say I learned to throw a ball.
What they want to say is I calibrated my internal systems with external objects to efficiently use my body coordination to throw an object in specific environment for specific purpose in specific way with specific environmental parameters.
The instinct to grab an object and throw it at a target though is inborn and babies do it instinctively the moment they develop hands and garbing reflex.
Same goes for dancing and rhythm.
Babies dance instinctively to sound and music.
Even parrots do it.

Many instincts in schools or talents are neglected, because we don't give space to them.

Talents are often inborn, but there has to be space for them to develop.

Schools focus on analytical thinking alone and nothing much else.

That is how you can get astrophysicist who cannot catch a ball.

We often think learning is only analytical, because since first grade in the west we are told learning is only analytical.

 

[sushi]

experience and memory becomes knowledge and observation

knowledge and observation becomes experience and memory

maybe i got it wrong

language and memory becomes knowledge and experience or vice versa

@zenriden

school stress book learning much more than physical learning. its even more so in asian schools.

 

[ZenRaiden]

school stress book learning much more than physical learning. its even more so in asian schools.

I have a question. Why do we stress book learning?
It gives us a sense of security about our future.
The problem is those secure jobs are already taken by very smart people.
The less smart people don't know this yet.
Once they graduate they will be competing for job positions with those smart people.
And those jobs positions are so filled that they don't even pay much.
Most of what you learn in school is old and insufficient for life.
Half of what you learn might be out date by the time you get working.
Some of it might be patently wrong.
And some of it might too little to compete with people who learned the right stuff.
Worst yet many smart people don't get to work in real world until they reach last year of university, by that time they are lazy and impractical book worms that don't really know what it takes to do things in real world.
They have no idea what their job is until they get it. Once they get it they realize what they learned is not what they do.
There are people with IQ 105 who can make millions.
People with IQ of 180 who are college professors and can't make enough to have a average life.
Books are great, but we live in a world where a 5 year old with internet connection has more information than a college professor.
Feeling smart eating books still?
Not saying book learning is wrong by default.
All I am saying the institution of schooling is too weak to prepare people for life.
Casting a wider net of knowledge than is offered in school is important for day to day success on changing job market, where new jobs pop out of nowhere.

 

[sushi]

school stress book learning much more than physical learning. its even more so in asian schools.

I have a question. Why do we stress book learning?
It gives us a sense of security about our future.
The problem is those secure jobs are already taken by very smart people.
The less smart people don't know this yet.
Once they graduate they will be competing for job positions with those smart people.
And those jobs positions are so filled that they don't even pay much.
Most of what you learn in school is old and insufficient for life.
Half of what you learn might be out date by the time you get working.
Some of it might be patently wrong.
And some of it might too little to compete with people who learned the right stuff.
Worst yet many smart people don't get to work in real world until they reach last year of university, by that time they are lazy and impractical book worms that don't really know what it takes to do things in real world.
They have no idea what their job is until they get it. Once they get it they realize what they learned is not what they do.
There are people with IQ 105 who can make millions.
People with IQ of 180 who are college professors and can't make enough to have a average life.
Books are great, but we live in a world where a 5 year old with internet connection has more information than a college professor.
Feeling smart eating books still?
Not saying book learning is wrong by default.
All I am saying the institution of schooling is too weak to prepare people for life.
Casting a wider net of knowledge than is offered in school is important for day to day success on changing job market, where new jobs pop out of nowhere.

physical learning is important also

we still live in prussian model of education, although there are paradigm shifts in more liberal countries.


input is increase in knowledge and memory

output is ability, manipulation , and utility of knowledge

 

[ZenRaiden]

we still live in prussian model of education, although there are paradigm shifts in more liberal countries.

In spirit, yes, in praxis no.
When it comes to prussian model of education a doctor would learn 1 percent of what doctors learn today. But unlike modern day doctors you had to know these things in and out by heart. Like literally a doctor was expected to know the little they know about the body and human physiology completely 120 percent.

A modern day doctor knows more than a Prussian physician, but unlike him, modern doctor would forget everything, do a lot of testing and homework and basically be constantly under a barrage of information.

Prussians actually got more time to digest and work with what they learn and practice what they learn.
Today its all theory, but no play. You learn everything, but you barely get to practice it.
As bruce lee said I fear not a man who practice 10 000 kicks, I fear a man who practice one kick 10 000 thousand times.

Ergo a Prussian had to rely on little bit of information, but because they rely on so little they learned to think.
Today we learn to absorb, but we never learn to think.
Because there is too little time to digest and absorb information.
Ergo we are simultaniously smarter and more retarded than the Prussians.

 

[Hourglass]

Arguably, sensing “comes first” out of the four things your mentioned, but that doesn’t make it the most important part of what enables humans to pursue life.

Infants at birth are entirely sensorial, for example.

As we become elderly, it would seem we will somewhat revert to our sensorial preferences.

Thinking, knowledge, learning become moreso “wisdom”.

 

[sushi]

knowledge is not different from resources, it is a form of resource like water food etc

we convert and assimilate external resource sinto ourselves, and it becomes memory

the brain is some sort of bank where we store ideas and concepts.

 

[sushi]

Arguably, sensing “comes first” out of the four things your mentioned, but that doesn’t make it the most important part of what enables humans to pursue life.

Infants at birth are entirely sensorial, for example.

As we become elderly, it would seem we will somewhat revert to our sensorial preferences.

Thinking, knowledge, learning become moreso “wisdom”.

i still havent figure the pattern out. The learning process is a mystery.

you could be right.

 

[Hourglass]

Some musings:

Knowing - an internally held belief that something is true.

Thinking - in modern day we view thinkers as those who analyze deeply, and many people do not find this necessary. Some people are built to rely on external senses to decide what to believe or do. But thinking in basic form is just brain activity that has varying levels of consciousness.

Learning - we’re slower learners as we age. But apparently some of us become “wise”. Unlearning is also very important and should be considered part of learning as we need to sometimes be able to reverse information we once held true. Many people can’t learn to unlearn and some of us struggle to unlearn what we believe or think we know strongly.

Sensing - certain animals have better instincts than others in certain situations versus others. Same goes for humans - we have certain senses and instincts that help up know what to do even if we don’t think about it or think little about it.

Doesn’t seem like there would be one pattern. Probably like 1000 patterns depending on the situation and person, but it would be interesting to see if, as an example. different countries had different preferences for each of these.

 

[Hourglass]

Sensing:

Se for INTJs

Si for INTPs

Thinking:
Te for INTJs

Ti for INTPs

Learning:
For INTJs it might be SeNiTeFi or FiNiTeSe

Not sure about INTPs

Knowledge:
For INTJs it might be SeFiNiTeNiFi

Not sure about INTPs but I think INTPs have a faster rate of collecting or arriving at what they know

 

[ZenRaiden]

I think the best way to see learning is syncing with information in order to change your own behavior to match situations, but react differently than what would normally be your default reaction.

Trouble is humans are wast networks that work constantly on unconscious level as well.

So a lot of learning happens implicitly without conscious effort via osmosis.

And lot of that osmotic learning is from your people who you spend time with, or environments you choose to live in.

We modern humans don't put always much stock into this type of learning as its not directly focused and often times it is not something we can influence.

Factually though we do influence this if we choose to sometimes.

Thinking happens in two directions, and that is analysis and synthesis or analogy.

Wast networks of neurons connect in variable ways.

But all networks have a sort of hierarchy depending on our way of functioning and conditioning which is also implicit.

So analyzing how we function means you need to realize that there is constant flexing between rigid aim and adaptation.

For instance in today's school system we tend towards analysis.

Synthesis is done more in art music theater etc.

We often conflate synthesis with creativity.

Truthfully I think synthesis is not creativity. In fact it just so happens its more connect with creative activities.

Because we somehow decided that math is logical and analytical and since that is predominant mode of thinking, we never learn to use synthesis in math.

Factually though brain networks interact by various associative mechanisms, and I believe some are innate, but many can be also created.

Synesthesia can be a good example how networks relate in "wrong ways" but create good outcomes, mainly extra ordinary memory for facts most normal people forget.