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Ken Wibler

Artsu Tharaz

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I thought it was fucking beautiful.

I cried for the first time in a long time after watching that.

But you know what?

I had to stop that crying before I had finished. Because a certain somebody, had just returned home.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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And when I was posting that comment, I thought that the first line I had written was "You know what, man?"
 

Artsu Tharaz

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So it was supposed to sound like this:

You know what, man?

I thought it was fucking beautiful.

I cried for the first time in a long time after watching that.

But I had to stop that crying before I had finished. Because a certain somebody, had just returned home.

--

And that seems to be the way it always is.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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Because it wasn't you I was angry at. And I didn't mean to make you feel like it was.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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So I'm sorry.

Because who the hell else could have done something for me like that.
 

Ex-User (13503)

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Re: Ken Wilber

What are your thoughts on Ken Wilber? Personally, I don't find his ideas to be too compelling, but I am not too familiar with his work.

Also, what do you think his MBTI type is?
I'm not the biggest fan of Wilber himself (also not extremely familiar, tbh), but Spiral Dynamics has some value as a heuristic. This particular video seems directed to a certain audience within that context because, well, it's level 8/turquoise/whatever the name is content.

He's probably an INFJ.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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Re: Ken Wilber

I'm not the biggest fan of Wilber himself (also not extremely familiar, tbh), but Spiral Dynamics has some value as a heuristic. This particular video seems directed to a certain audience within that context because, well, it's level 8/turquoise/whatever the name is content.

He's probably an INFJ.

Yeah and what type is Jake54321?
 

Ex-User (13503)

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Hell, idk. 8 posts is a pretty small sample size. Probably not INFJ though. :p
 

Jake54321

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Re: Ken Wilber

I'm not the biggest fan of Wilber himself (also not extremely familiar, tbh), but Spiral Dynamics has some value as a heuristic. This particular video seems directed to a certain audience within that context because, well, it's level 8/turquoise/whatever the name is content.

He's probably an INFJ.
I am curious as to why you think he is an INFJ? The way in which Wilber does not want to outright reject any viewpoint seems to be indicative of dominant Extraverted Intuition.
 
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He is attempting to equalize perspectives based on the fact that there is no absolute right.

What underlies that is most likely a social intention or motive.
 
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What is the point of saying nobody is "one-hundred percent wrong"?

When we are trying to find a solution to a problem, do we value everyone's input, no matter how ridiculous, based on the idea that "everybody is right / nobody is absolutely wrong"?

Or do we recognize and implement good solutions and dismiss the poor ones?

If we dismiss poor solutions or ideas, what the hell, does it matter, if they are not "absolutely wrong"?

Again, what is the point of this claim?

There is only emotional value in making such a claim.

Protecting stupidity from facing consequences.

"Remember, kids, no matter how foolish a claim, nobody is stupid, since nobody is one-hundred percent wrong, therefore, everybody is right."
 

Ex-User (13503)

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Re: Ken Wilber

I am curious as to why you think he is an INFJ? The way in which Wilber does not want to outright reject any viewpoint seems to be indicative of dominant Extraverted Intuition.
I wouldn't limit the manner of expression to Ne or Ni, just its dominant position in the stack. But what that manner of expression is serving is actually an ideological position rooted in empathy. From there it's easier to discern whether the values move from the self to others (Fi) or vice versa (Fe). It's a very crude explanation, but Ne-Fi seeks value in others and Ni-Fe finds it in others, both all too frequently when it isn't there, hence borderline tendencies in the former and dependent tendencies in the latter.

I myself have actually been engrossed in a somewhat similar argument in this thread (starts at post #33, probably a long boring read in many respects lol): http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=24956

I think it's about to carry over into this thread. My apologies if that bothers you. I'll try to keep long posts in spoilers for easy scrolling.

Anyway, the structure of the concept that "everyone is right" is very similar to that of "everything has value." They're actually quite closely related and interdependent, imho.
 

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What underlies that is most likely a social intention or motive.
Your assumption being based on.....?
What is the point of saying nobody is "one-hundred percent wrong"?

When we are trying to find a solution to a problem, do we value everyone's input, no matter how ridiculous, based on the idea that "everybody is right / nobody is absolutely wrong"?

Or do we recognize and implement good solutions and dismiss the poor ones?

If we dismiss poor solutions or ideas, what the hell, does it matter, if they are not "absolutely wrong"?

Again, what is the point of this claim?

There is only emotional value in making such a claim.

Protecting stupidity from facing consequences.

"Remember, kids, no matter how foolish a claim, nobody is stupid, since nobody is one-hundred percent wrong, therefore, everybody is right."
The more people involved in a decision, the more difficult it is for the group to reach consensus. The purpose of that statement is to remind stakeholders of this because if they hold this belief, they maintain adaptability in the face of uncertainty.

We don't value everyone's input, we value everyone's perspective, which is a component of input, as well as content. It seems your issue with input is actually the content part.
 

Tannhauser

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I am not familiar with who this guy is, but he is definitely one of those people who surprise me with how many words they can say without saying anything of substance.
 

Jake54321

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What is the point of saying nobody is "one-hundred percent wrong"?

When we are trying to find a solution to a problem, do we value everyone's input, no matter how ridiculous, based on the idea that "everybody is right / nobody is absolutely wrong"?

Or do we recognize and implement good solutions and dismiss the poor ones?

If we dismiss poor solutions or ideas, what the hell, does it matter, if they are not "absolutely wrong"?

Again, what is the point of this claim?

There is only emotional value in making such a claim.

Protecting stupidity from facing consequences.

"Remember, kids, no matter how foolish a claim, nobody is stupid, since nobody is one-hundred percent wrong, therefore, everybody is right."





I agree with your assessment, a lot of the statements made by Mr.Wilber seem on the surface to be sophisticated, but when one gets down to it they lack any real substance.
My general impression of Mr.Wilber has been that he ultimately tries to accomplish too much. Essentially he is too ambitious, instead of trying to hone one or two ideas he tries to find a grand theory of everything. It is because of this, his ideas remain infantile and sloppy. But perhaps before I criticize his ideas so harshly, I should read his work.

An interesting article on Mr.Wilber
https://markmanson.net/ken-wilber
 

Ex-User (13503)

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An interesting article on Mr.Wilber
https://markmanson.net/ken-wilber
"But what he seems to have missed is that worshipping consciousness development itself, Wilber’s so-called “second-tier” thinking, leads to the same disastrous repercussions Wallace warned of: vanity, power, guilt, obsession.


No one is immune."

Pretty much ^this. It's not that he's necessarily wrong, it's that he thought he was more useful to others than he was and thus should have just kept his mouth shut and used his abilities within the constraints of the stage 5/orange:rolleyes:/capitalistic society he exists in.
 
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The more people involved in a decision, the more difficult it is for the group to reach consensus. The purpose of that statement is to remind stakeholders of this because if they hold this belief, they maintain adaptability in the face of uncertainty.

Uncertainty is always a given.

To increase the difficulty of reaching a consensus is not necessarily a positive.

It is over-thinking.

What you are basically saying is, is that one should value quantity over quality when trying posit value judgments, and that this is "adaptability".

Since when does decreasing accuracy equate to being adaptable?

You are far too socially-orientated.

Reality does not care whether or not "everybody is right / everything has value".
 

Artsu Tharaz

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Uncertainty is always a given.

To increase the difficulty of reaching a consensus is not necessarily a positive.

It is over-thinking.

What you are basically saying is, is that one should value quantity over quality when trying posit value judgments, and that this is "adaptability".

Since when does decreasing accuracy equate to being adaptable?

You are far too socially-orientated.

Reality does not care whether or not "everybody is right / everything has value".

What, are you a fucking ninja?

Nobody does this shit.
 

Ex-User (13503)

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Uncertainty is always a given.

To increase the difficulty of reaching a consensus is not necessarily a positive.

It is over-thinking.

What you are basically saying is, is that one should value quantity over quality when trying posit value judgments, and that this is "adaptability".

Since when does decreasing accuracy equate to being adaptable?

You are far too socially-orientated.

Reality does not care whether or not "everybody is right / everything has value".
Realizing it exists isn't, now is it? "Reality does not care whether or not "everybody is right / everything has value"."

Increasing difficulty isn't a positive, I think it's neutral. But the cool part is that it follows a natural mathematical order/pattern that directly correlates to the scale of applicability and enforceability of a given decision. Without consensus, family-level decisions don't make it to, say, state level. I'm not making a quantity vs quality argument, I'm making an applicability argument. Agent-based consensus is a complex adaptive system that forms and persists through self-design.

This structure already exists, for the most part, with mores, folkways, laws, etc, though there are issues when lower level decisions are elevated to higher levels of enforcement (like outlawing abortion, for example), which is exactly what your strategy risks doing by disregarding the perspective of its applicable constituents, albeit likely in ignorance vs malevolence.

You're too non-socially oriented...? :confused:
 
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Traditionally, there was no equal power within, say, family structures, and even today, this is the case, under many different forms.

There is no equal power.

Components (within many social structures) perspectives can and do have no value, or, at-least, possess hierarchies of value.


We can try it your way and pretend that all components (of any structure) perspectives have equal value, or necessarily have at-least a degree value (which is never even the case and for no other reason than because one feels that they do), but, is this a better or worse method in relation to x objective(s) within reality, and what would be the result?

Does a father speak to his infant child in order to reach a consensus?

Does his infant child's opinion matter?

Does the father waste his time on his infant child's opinion because "everyone is right"?
 

Ex-User (13503)

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Traditionally, there was no equal power within, say, family structures, and even today, this is the case, under many different forms.

There is no equal power.

Components (within many social structures) perspectives can and do have no value, or, at-least, possess hierarchies of value.

We can try it your way and pretend that all components (of any structure) perspectives have equal value, or necessarily have at-least a degree value (which is never even the case and for no other reason than because one feels that they do), but, is this a better or worse method in relation to x objective(s) within reality, and what would be the result?

Does a father speak to his infant child in order to reach a consensus?

Does his infant child's opinion matter?

Does the father waste his time on his infant child's opinion because "everyone is right"?
That's not what I was getting at. Family level decisions are things like spending priorities and shopping lists. They aren't going to apply to the household down the street.

And it's not about power. You inserted power and I certainly never asserted it was equal. Power isn't tied to perspective or input. Sociology 101 (100 for me, actually :D): Power is, specifically, the ability to do things even against the will of others. Contrast that with authority, which is willingly given. Specifically, there are two types of authority: Ascribed, which is denoted by title, and achieved, which is earned by merit. Those in power who reach decisions through consensus are using the authority of their constituents. Moreover, in such a scenario, power is much more directly tied to merit as the degree of division of labor correlates with the size of the goal.

"Does the father waste his time on his infant child's opinion because "everyone is right"?"

You're a strawman machine.... If the kid becomes happy and laughs at the sight of orange-colored things, or cries less when a specific shape of pacifier nipple is used, guess what mommy and daddy are buying in order to have more peace and quiet?
 
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