Keirsey: NT's don't trust intuition

[Architect]

David Keirsey, author of PUM (Please Understand Me) and his son David Keirsey are both self identified INTP's, and have said something curious. In a recent interview his son mentioned that NT's don't trust intuition (he may have said INTP's specifically).

Here's the three interviews.

Later I'm reading Personology, the last book his father wrote. I had written it off earlier, but based on this interview gave it a second try and am finding it interesting and useful. You have to understand that Keirsey was a descriptor. He didn't come to MBTI via theory, he thought the functions were too complicated. Once you understand that he's just getting to description then it makes more sense.

At any rate he said the same thing in his book, NT's don't trust intuition. Is this true?

Personally I get hunches that I can't explain rationally, I have to wait until my rational mind can find the basis for the hunches, but they're almost always right. Trivial example; how to decorate a room. I felt that the furniture needed to go such-and-such, and that we needed this or that, but I couldn't explain it. Later I figured out it was due to the traffic flow through through the room.

So I'm not sure in general, do NT's, and INTP's in particular only truly trust logic? That is true in the sense that logical explanation is always the end goal. I may start with an intuition, but I have to ultimately be able to explain it logically. Perhaps that's what they meant.

 

[Cognisant]

In my experience intuition is whatever my subconscious thinks about which is greatly affected by whatever I'm consciously fixated on, for example I'll be doing something completely unrelated and suddenly it'll be like "oh by the way regarding this thing you were thinking about earlier I've figured out a better way of doing it". Except obviously not spoken to me like that, the idea just pops into my head out of freaking nowhere and I'm left wondering just how much thinking is going on in this head of mine that I'm not consciously aware of.

There's very little "right here, right now" intuition, I tend to make all my decisions consciously, not because I don't trust my subconscious to have my best interests in mind but I would rather have it thinking about robotics, AI, philosophy and whatever isn't mundane day-to-day bullshit.

Although I do get glimpses of what's about to happen, just today someone was lifting something over their head and saw me grinning like an idiot a moment before it fell back and smacked them in the face, I intuitively knew (too late to say anything but not to late to grin idiotically) that the shelf was too high and with their upper body strength it was only a matter of time...

 

[Hadoblado]

I never trust intuition. It may feed me ideas and whatnot, but I never take it at its word unless I truly don't care about the process or the result.

 

[Jennywocky]

So I'm not sure in general, do NT's, and INTP's in particular only truly trust logic? That is true in the sense that logical explanation is always the end goal. I may start with an intuition, but I have to ultimately be able to explain it logically. Perhaps that's what they meant.

I identify with that remark.

I'm very intuitive, but I have a lot of trouble TRUSTING it (i.e., taking a definitive actions on it / using it as a rationalization for behavior)... I need to be able to justify it rationally or I feel anxiety.

it even filters into the stuff I said about god/supernatural in the past here. Yes, I can see certain patterns or possibilities in the world, but unless I can ground it in a logical explanation / chain, I feel very awkward and anxious over stating such a thing to be actually true.

I've noticed for religious ENFPs I get into arguments with, they're really fine with arguing that Ne stuff is actually true.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I think INTJs trust intuition, they aren't satisfied with it but they certainly let it direct their efforts, and they are fully capable of acting on it alone when it comes to things in the now which they won't have the time to think through until later.

 

[Architect]

I think INTJs trust intuition, they aren't satisfied with it but they certainly let it direct their efforts, and they are fully capable of acting on it alone when it comes to things in the now which they won't have the time to think through until later.

Excellent point, INTJ's better trust intuition. And what about the ENTP's with Ne dominant? ENTP Adam Savage clearly trusts his intuitive ideas as he runs around.

I'm thinking Keirsey's got this wrong, it's only partially true for the N aux NT's ENTJ & INTP.

I'm very intuitive, but I have a lot of trouble TRUSTING it (i.e., taking a definitive actions on it / using it as a rationalization for behavior)... I need to be able to justify it rationally or I feel anxiety.

Interesting, as I think of it I really trust my intuitions, but the end goal is always logic. "Trust but verify" kind of thing.

But then I spent much of my early life more as a Ne developed INTP like Larry David or Jim Parsons as the result of being a humanities geek. I almost feel half Ti half Ne. A major reason I went into Physics was because I could tell my "thinking" was deficient.

 

[Cognisant]

ENTP Adam Savage clearly trusts his intuitive ideas as he runs around.

I think that's just the ENTP mania, he consciously thinks about what he does but he doesn't spend as much time considering his actions as Jamie. When worked up into a manic state an ENTP has a tremendous amount of mental energy and can put it to use very quickly hence their propensity to leap into wildly ambitious projects and making lots of progress in a short space of time. However this momentum is quickly lost when confronted with arduous work and time consuming setbacks, the same mania that gives an ENTP their energy also makes it very difficult for them to remain focused so they quickly lose interest only to become excited about something else.

An ENTP will have many projects going on simultaneously so they can jump back and forth between them when interest wanes, at least in theory, in practice it just means there's an ever increasing number of half finished robots/gadgets/explosives/etc laying around.

ENTPs don't have intuition they have ideas, wonderful terrifying fantastic ideas.

 

[Jennywocky]

I think that's just the ENTP mania, he consciously thinks about what he does but he doesn't spend as much time considering his actions as Jamie. When worked up into a manic state an ENTP has a tremendous amount of mental energy and can put it to use very quickly hence their propensity to leap into wildly ambitious projects and making lots of progress in a short space of time. However this momentum is quickly lost when confronted with arduous work and time consuming setbacks, the same mania that gives an ENTP their energy also makes it very difficult for them to remain focused so they quickly lose interest only to become excited about something else.

An ENTP will have many projects going on simultaneously so they can jump back and forth between them when interest wanes, at least in theory, in practice it just means there's an ever increasing number of half finished robots/gadgets/explosives/etc laying around.

ENTPs don't have intuition they have ideas, wonderful terrifying fantastic ideas.

Yeah, that kind of makes sense.

And I see the J/P difference between Jaime and Adam to be immensely huge, as you've noticed -- Adam doesn't want to lose his momentum double-checking everything, whereas Jaime seems to be entirely anal sometimes, he feels like he has a grip on the idea when he has checked it all out and gotten all the details under control.

 

[The Gopher]

I act on my intuition immediately but I don't trust it completely. Well I mean I trust it a lot but I always check after (or before if I have time, even a small check) why it came up with what it did.

 

[scorpiomover]

At any rate he said the same thing in his book, NT's don't trust intuition. Is this true?

Yes. When I was a kid, "intuition" was something that many people had. It was often called "second sight". Some kids would just "know" some things without there being any rational justification for why that should be.

Then when the government started trying to make everything about science, NTs seemed to say that such things "didn't happen". INTJs started making up the most weird of descriptions for their Ni. None of them fit all that well, even though they sound clever. Ne is usually described with little more than "brainstorming", as if the only difference between an INTP and an ISTP, is that an ISTP has Ti & Se, and an INTP only has Ti and nothing else.

Personally I get hunches that I can't explain rationally, I have to wait until my rational mind can find the basis for the hunches, but they're almost always right. Trivial example; how to decorate a room. I felt that the furniture needed to go such-and-such, and that we needed this or that, but I couldn't explain it. Later I figured out it was due to the traffic flow through through the room.

If you were born 50-100 years earlier, people would have said that you were "psychic", and you would not have been able to distinguish between what you do, and what a psychic does.

You're much older than most here, as I am. I learned to appreciate my intuition as I got many more life experiences. Did the same happen to you?

 

[Oddity]

Then when the government started trying to make everything about science, NTs seemed to say that such things "didn't happen". INTJs started making up the most weird of descriptions for their Ni. None of them fit all that well, even though they sound clever. Ne is usually described with little more than "brainstorming", as if the only difference between an INTP and an ISTP, is that an ISTP has Ti & Se, and an INTP only has Ti and nothing else.

I have also noticed the incredible bias in favor of Ni (and also against Ne) in MBTI related articles. I often forget Ne (and NPs) are just completely uninspired randomness compared to the infinite holy vision that is Ni, until I read something online where INTJs describe what they think about INTPs (or what any other Ni user / admirer-of-Ni-users thinks about Ne users). Thank goodness for the Internet.

 

[Hadoblado]

I have also noticed the incredible bias in favor of Ni (and also against Ne) in MBTI related articles. I often forget Ne (and NPs) are just completely uninspired randomness compared to the infinite holy vision that is Ni, until I read something online where INTJs describe what they think about INTPs (or what any other Ni user / admirer-of-Ni-users thinks about Ne users). Thank goodness for the Internet.

Really? I've never noticed. I tend to run the other way (Ni seems like lazy self-infatuated Ti).

 

[Oddity]

Really? I've never noticed. I tend to run the other way (Ni seems like lazy self-infatuated Ti).

Yes, well, you're an INTP, rather than an NJ or NJ-admirer. Just read anything on the Internet comparing INTPs and INTJs (or xNxP to xNxJ or whatever).

 

[nanook]

>Ni seems like lazy self-infatuated Ti

fixed for you:
-Ni seems like lazy self-infatuated Ne
-INTP seem like lazy self-infatuated ESFJ
-introverts .....

 

[Cherry Cola]

Ni is like smoking cigarettes. It might not be good for you, but it's fucking cool as hell and really badass, you can't deny that

 

[Architect]

Ni is a clusterfuck of one. Ti's not much better, that why they need Fe & Ne.

 

[redbaron]

Ni is like smoking cigarettes. It might not be good for you, but it's fucking cool as hell and really badass, you can't deny that

Not sure I've ever considered smoking to be either cool or badass.

 

[Cherry Cola]

typical not cool guy comment

smoking cigarettes doubles your covert prestige

 

[Architect]

I think that's just the ENTP mania ... ENTPs don't have intuition they have ideas, wonderful terrifying fantastic ideas.

Yeah, that kind of makes sense.

"ENTP's don't have intuition they have ideas" ... really? Aren't ideas just the outward manifestation or crystallization of intuition? I think about the many N inferior people I know, they're not idea machines like N dominants/auxilaries are. What they like to do is get together and brainstorm, they seem to need the support for their weaker intuition facilities.

And I see the J/P difference between Jaime and Adam to be immensely huge, as you've noticed -- Adam doesn't want to lose his momentum double-checking everything, whereas Jaime seems to be entirely anal sometimes, he feels like he has a grip on the idea when he has checked it all out and gotten all the details under control.

Yes definitely, that's the most obvious difference between them. But whereas Adam will take some wild idea and try it out, Jamie is instead carefully finding/testing ideas as extensions to existing ideas. Typical Si ISTJ dominant approach.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I think it's clear the intuition dominants don't follow that saying. Plus ENTJ has perhaps the most visible use of intuition, you'll notice they might tend to border the line between pioneer/outsider as although they make complex rational decisions in the real world, their motivations might seem off to you, or goals unrealistic.Yet their success speaks for itself.

Ni is like smoking cigarettes. It might not be good for you, but it's fucking cool as hell and really badass, you can't deny that

Second hand Ni might not be good for anyone else either.

 

[redbaron]

typical not cool guy comment

smoking cigarettes doubles your covert prestige

What adult even cares about being cool? I vaguely remember when my peers cared about it. Then they turned 12.

Smoking culture is as baseless as wine culture, just for poor cunts who can't afford the wine.

 

[kora]

No he's right, it looks cool. Whether or not that's important is another matter.

 

[Grayman]

David Keirsey, author of PUM (Please Understand Me) and his son David Keirsey are both self identified INTP's, and have said something curious. In a recent interview his son mentioned that NT's don't trust intuition (he may have said INTP's specifically).

My intuition is the question to be asked or the directions I can go. My Ti the validation.

Without Ne I have no places to go, no data to follow.

I dont trust my intution but it is only through that skeptism does my Ti get to have a role in reasoning.

Also, there are so many intuitions and many may conflict and many exist in sync. I cannot know how they fit together until I sort them.

It is like seeing a shadow and barely grasping what it is you are observing. As you look closely at each peice it gains clarity and when you have observed all the pieces you can look back and see what the shadow belongs to.

 

[Oddity]

Smoking culture is as baseless as wine culture, just for poor cunts who can't afford the wine.

Haha true

 

[dark+matters]

^ Oh my God- that meme is totally going in my collection

 

[Cherry Cola]

What adult even cares about being cool? I vaguely remember when my peers cared about it. Then they turned 12.

Smoking culture is as baseless as wine culture, just for poor cunts who can't afford the wine.

haha dolty clodpate, look at my avatar and tell me it isn't cool as fuck ever since I switched to it aint no one dared call me no feeler, being cool matters if you can pull it off

meanwhile I have insane crawings for food owing to not having smoked for a while

 

[Architect]

What adult even cares about being cool?

I get the mail in shorts, black dress socks and whatever shoes are handy. I'm the king of adult cool.

 

[scorpiomover]

I think that's just the ENTP mania, he consciously thinks about what he does but he doesn't spend as much time considering his actions as Jamie. When worked up into a manic state an ENTP has a tremendous amount of mental energy and can put it to use very quickly hence their propensity to leap into wildly ambitious projects and making lots of progress in a short space of time. However this momentum is quickly lost when confronted with arduous work and time consuming setbacks, the same mania that gives an ENTP their energy also makes it very difficult for them to remain focused so they quickly lose interest only to become excited about something else.

An ENTP will have many projects going on simultaneously so they can jump back and forth between them when interest wanes, at least in theory, in practice it just means there's an ever increasing number of half finished robots/gadgets/explosives/etc laying around.

Sounds like an INTJ trying to describe an ENTP.

ENTPs don't have intuition they have ideas, wonderful terrifying fantastic ideas.

If we change that to "ENTPs don't have introverted intuition they have something like Ni ideas, but isn't introverted intuition, which I will call ideas, wonderful terrifying fantastic ideas.", then it would make sense for an INTJ to say something like that.

They have ideas like you do. They are "wonderful" and "terrifying", because they're not boring and predictable like INTJs usually think of the ideas of Sensors. So they have to be ideas borne of N. But, they're not borne of Ni, i.e. what you are used to calling "intuition". Therefore, they must be some other type of intuitive "idea" (Ni or Ne) that is not what you are used to calling "intuition" (your Ni). Hence, you are calling Ne "ideas", for lack of a better word for it.

 

[Bock]

Smoking can make a nerdy guy turn into a normal sociable guy in an instant

 

[Brontosaurie]

What adult even cares about being cool? I vaguely remember when my peers cared about it. Then they turned 12.

Smoking culture is as baseless as wine culture, just for poor cunts who can't afford the wine.

what genuine person even cares about being "adult"?

 

[Yellow]

what genuine person even cares about being "adult"?

INTJs.

Speaking of INTJs, they certainly seem to trust their intuition, but only if they trust their abilities in that area. When intuition leads an INTJ to an answer, he will act on it without much analysis. When it is done, he may double check for other solutions, if it is necessary. An INTP may get an answer through intuition, but she will go over all the options only to act on the original conclusion because she is never sure of anything. ENTJs go over all the options (very quickly, if necessary) in order to confirm their intuition and then act (which basically amounts to what INTJs do, while claiming that they considered everything). I dunno about ENTPs; their decision-making processes have always left me baffled.

 

[Analyzer]

INTJs.

Speaking of INTJs, they certainly seem to trust their intuition, but only if they trust their abilities in that area. When intuition leads an INTJ to an answer, he will act on it without much analysis. When it is done, he may double check for other solutions, if it is necessary. An INTP may get an answer through intuition, but she will go over all the options only to act on the original conclusion because she is never sure of anything. ENTJs go over all the options (very quickly, if necessary) in order to confirm their intuition and then act (which basically amounts to what INTJs do, while claiming that they considered everything). I dunno about ENTPs; their decision-making processes have always left me baffled.

Seems like ENTP's use Ti for establishing the patterns to focus on, so with this it concerns itself less with analysis on specifics but rather coming to a more whole picture of their possibilities. They are dominant extraverted intuitives so for them decisions are based on how it fits into their perceptions. I would guess out of all NT's ENTP's trust intuition the most followed by INTJ's, while still less than NF's. ENTJ's and INTP's with dominant rational functions trust their thinking more.

 

[Yellow]

Seems like ENTP's use Ti for establishing the patterns to focus on, so with this it concerns itself less with analysis on specifics but rather coming to a more whole picture of their possibilities. They are dominant extraverted intuitives so for them decisions are based on how it fits into their perceptions. I would guess out of all NT's ENTP's trust intuition the most, while still less than NF's.

That makes sense. I've only known 2 ENTPs well enough to know they were ENTPs but they both seemed to have issues with confirmation bias. Though they were still more open-minded than most people.