Juvenile Intellectuals.

[Chad]

Honestly I have been there before and I am wondering how many of you can contest to the teenage angst that many intellectuals go threw.

I was 14-21 once I remember it quite clearly.

I may have not believed that I knew everything but I did believe that I knew anything that was important to know. All my opinions were very concrete and anyone that didn't agree with me was wrong. I was very obsessed with winning debates and I would debate anyone rather they were trying to debate or not.

I drove my parents crazy and walked around our home telling everyone in my family that I was smarter then them and therefore better then them.

I was a dick and I can't believe that I ever behaved that way know. Honestly if I do have kids and they act that way I may strangle them to death its very annoying mostly because looking past at that time I realize that most of my opinions were bull shit.

I knew nothing about real life form 14-19. After I moved out and when to college I did start to learn more about life and the whole experience humbled me a little. I started to realize that I know very little about reality and most of the crap anyone says is theoretical at best. While I still believe in truth I realize that my ability to find and identify truth is very limited.

This doesn't mean I know longer have opinions but I am more open to the fact that I am most likely going to be wrong at least a little in the details. I am human and therefore not perfect. The best I can hope for is close to the truth. Life and knowledge has become much more subjective. I find while I am still formulating opinions they are more fluid. This has actually allowed me to find much more out about life. I learn new things almost daily that change my perspective. I have learn to listen more then speak and when I speak it is not to correct but to open other to a different perspective that I have seen.

I care very little about debating and even less about winning an argument. However, I do enjoy to express my perspective which is original to my mental methods. This means I am even less concern with the accuracy of my statements while forumming. This is not to say I enjoy being wrong but the process wrong generally helps me learn. I enjoy learning and it is the primary reason I do anything including posting on this forum.

I have written this rant to show how I have grown.

I would love to hear from some more mature intellectuals on this site who may have experiences similar maturity as well as how they are still maturing as they continue to age.

I am also open to a discussion on rather this issue is an INTP thing or a more general problem with intellectuals. From what I have witness on this site I would assume that most intellectuals have gone threw are are going threw this stage of adolescence.

I am also interested in have a gender discussion as I only really understand these issue form a male perspective and I am curious if they transfer over to the female perspective or is the development different for adolescence intellectual females.

Mostly my curiosity come form a conversation I had with my wife about how are theoretical children may act in there juvenile years. Both my wife and I are Intellectuals however I am xNTP and she is ISTJ.

 

[Duxwing]

So you just doubt yourself more now?

-Duxwing

 

[Chad]

So you just doubt yourself more now?

-Duxwing

I guess if you would like to put it that way you could.

I would say I am more realistic about my own abilities. I know that I can be wrong and I am often wrong. I am also more okay with this however, that has not always been the case my early 20's were very difficult.

You remind me of myself when I was in my teens. That not saying that is a bad thing its all part of your development you have to go threw this time to move on. I am honestly not trying to be insulting I am trying to be sincere.

 

[Duxwing]

I guess if you would like to put it that way you could.

No need to use a page where a sentence will do. And given that you don't care about writing, I suggest that you use less of it.

I would say I am more realistic about my own abilities. I know that I can be wrong and I am often wrong. I am also more okay with this however, that has not always been the case my early 20's were very difficult.

Hm. I had this experience between ages 11 and 13; later, years of debating taught me when to doubt and when to trust. It was grueling at times, but very much fun. I'll never forget my days on that board.

-Duxwing

 

[Chad]

No need to use a page where a sentence will do. And given that you don't care about writing, I suggest that you use less of it.



Hm. I had this experience between ages 11 and 13; later, years of debating taught me when to doubt and when to trust. It was grueling at times, but very much fun. I'll never forget my days on that board.

-Duxwing

Just to inform you of my cares. I actually like writing I just don't care for the rules and correctness. Most people on here can get the gust of what I mean. I am sorry if you have a hard time with it. Science has proven that most people don't have to read perfectly spelled sentences to understand them. Only spelling Nazi care and that is because they find it insulting to butcher the English language.

This and I was trying to say a lot more if you read everything. Your one point may have been part of it but I never think in such simple terms.

 

[Duxwing]

Note: I don't intend the following to belittle you.

Just to inform you of my cares. I actually like writing I just don't care for the rules and correctness.

Writing that has misplaced or absent commas, homonphonic misspellings, and rampant use of pronouns with unclear antecedents can be unintelligible, not to mention physically painful to read. Breaking the rules of proper spelling and grammar when writing on a forum is akin to not wiping your butt after you take a dump: you might not mind the smell, but almost everyone else will.

Most people on here can get the gust of what I mean.

Writing is more than information transfer, and even if it weren't, then the information transfer would go far more smoothly if you used proper spelling and grammar.

I am sorry if you have a hard time with it.

I refer you to the not-wiping-your-butt analogy. I'm not the only one who's annoyed by your writing, either.

Science has proven that most people don't have to read perfectly spelled sentences to understand them.

This argument in quite a few ways:

--First, words are spelled, not sentences. Sentences are written, and they must follow the rules of proper grammar if they are to be understood. Your sentences do not follow the rules of proper grammar; ergo, they are often misunderstood.
--Science has proven that most words can have the letters between their first and last letters rearranged without impacting the ability of someone to read them at all. It hasn't proven that such writing is easy or pleasant to read, nor has it proven that your particular type of misspelling-- homophonic misspelling, e.g., "I was chased by a bare" versus "I was chased by a bear"-- is negligibly deleterious to writing quality. In fact, the research points to the opposite: changing the first and last letters of a word severely impacts the ability of a reader to understand it, e.g., "I saw a room" versus "I saw a moor".
--Finally, think of what you're saying: Most people. That means >50%. That could be only 51%. You're losing almost half your audience to your bad spelling and grammar!

Only spelling Nazi care and that is because they find it insulting to butcher the English language.

Consider the reasons that I've posted above.

This and I was trying to say a lot more if you read everything.

Here's an example of your poor grammar interfering with comprehension. I have no idea about what the antecedent of "this" is.

Your one point may have been part of it but I never think in such simple terms.

What does "it" refer to? Don't you see my point now? You don't have to become Shakespeare, just learn to spell and write. Also, you're a hypocrite for ignoring the rest of my post.

-Duxwing

 

[Lot]

Note: I don't intend the following to belittle you.



Writing that has misplaced or absent commas, homonphonic misspellings, and rampant use of pronouns with unclear antecedents can be unintelligible, not to mention physically painful to read. Breaking the rules of proper spelling and grammar when writing on a forum is akin to not wiping your butt after you take a dump: you might not mind the smell, but almost everyone else will.



Writing is more than information transfer, and even if it weren't, then the information transfer would go far more smoothly if you used proper spelling and grammar.



I refer you to the not-wiping-your-butt analogy. I'm not the only one who's annoyed by your writing, either.



This argument in quite a few ways:

--First, words are spelled, not sentences. Sentences are written, and they must follow the rules of proper grammar if they are to be understood. Your sentences do not follow the rules of proper grammar; ergo, they are often misunderstood.
--Science has proven that most words can have the letters between their first and last letters rearranged without impacting the ability of someone to read them at all. It hasn't proven that such writing is easy or pleasant to read, nor has it proven that your particular type of misspelling-- homophonic misspelling, e.g., "I was chased by a bare" versus "I was chased by a bear"-- is negligibly deleterious to writing quality. In fact, the research points to the opposite: changing the first and last letters of a word severely impacts the ability of a reader to understand it, e.g., "I saw a room" versus "I saw a moor".
--Finally, think of what you're saying: Most people. That means >50%. That could be only 51%. You're losing almost half your audience to your bad spelling and grammar!



Consider the reasons that I've posted above.



Here's an example of your poor grammar interfering with comprehension. I have no idea about what the antecedent of "this" is.



What does "it" refer to? Don't you see my point now? You don't have to become Shakespeare, just learn to spell and write. Also, you're a hypocrite for ignoring the rest of my post.

-Duxwing

Way to derail the thread. You have quite a knack for the full derail. You might as well have posted pictures of spiderman.

 

[Chad]

Back to the point can some Admin please remove Duxwings trolling so I can have a real conversation with someone about Juvenile Intellectual issues.

 

[Lot]

To get back on track. Chad I know what you mean. I was so full of my own self importance and superiority. Which as I've gotten older I found myself to be lacking compared to my circle of piers. It's hard not to think of yourself as better than everyone when you are clearly smarter than your class mates (or at least that's how it feels). I was willing to argue anyone and wouldn't let them win. Even if I knew I had lost I wouldn't let them look smarter than me in front of the people around me.

Now that I'm 25, my brain has stopped growing, and I've started to see what really matters, I don't need to argue as much. Of course it can be fun to poke jabs at people on the internet every once in a while, but it's very fleeting. I look back at the times I fought with people or tried to put someone's ideas down, in my teens early 20's, I just looked like an asshole. To this day I reel at the memory of me trying to anger a friend of mine's wife and make fun of Offspring at the same time. I can't hear Offspring on the radio without being reminded of how rude and stupid I was. I took philosophy classes my first couple years of college and thought I was so smart. I would always have philosophical arguments with my dad. There were a few times he told bluntly that I was being rude to him, which I was. Not to say that he doesn't do the same shit to me, but a son doesn't have the right to talk to their father the way I did.

Arguing just doesn't interest me so much. I think this has to do with how I view people. They are just a stubborn as I am. Unless I present a super amazing argument in the right way at the right time, people aren't going to change their minds. It's understandable, because I'm to same way. I could 6 people all tell me the same thing, but until I'm ready to hear it, I won't hear them. We all seem to have deaf ears and blind eyes. Also, who am I to tell someone they're lifestyle is wrong, or their thoughts are wrong. I hate people judging me. Why should I judge them? Of course I still judge people, but I try to keep it to myself (my previous post being an exception).

I still think I'm right about most things, but what person doesn't hold to ideas and think they are right? It's implied, by believing it, that we think it's right. I am more willing and open to more ideas than I was when I was younger. I recognize that I'm still young, and have a lot to learn. About people and the world around me. I shouldn't write off the views of people older than me, even if think it's wrong, there is usually a reason why they hold to that view. I might as well find out what lead them to their conclusion. Although, I'll mostly ignore people that have proven to hold to two diametrically opposed views and not see it as a problem, also people that don't think the material world exists. I much more inclined to listen to a person that doesn't believe in a soul than a person that thinks all is spirit, or an illusion, or parts of god. They could have something to offer, but it's probably not something that any other world view couldn't figure out.

 

[Chad]

To get back on track. Chad I know what you mean. I was so full of my own self importance and superiority. Which as I've gotten older I found myself to be lacking compared to my circle of piers. It's hard not to think of yourself as better than everyone when you are clearly smarter than your class mates (or at least that's how it feels). I was willing to argue anyone and wouldn't let them win. Even if I knew I had lost I wouldn't let them look smarter than me in front of the people around me.

Now that I'm 25, my brain has stopped growing, and I've started to see what really matters, I don't need to argue as much. Of course it can be fun to poke jabs at people on the internet every once in a while, but it's very fleeting. I look back at the times I fought with people or tried to put someone's ideas down, in my teens early 20's, I just looked like an asshole. To this day I real at the memory of me trying to anger a friend of mine's wife and make fun of Offspring at the same time. I can't here Offspring on the radio without being reminded of how rude and stupid I was. I took philosophy classes my first couple years of college and thought I was so smart. I would always have philosophical arguments with my dad. There were a few times he told bluntly that I was being rude to him, which I was. Not to say that he doesn't do the same shit to me, but a son doesn't have the right to talk to their father the way I did.

Arguing just doesn't interest me so much. I think this has to do with how I view people. They are just a stubborn as I am. Unless I present a super amazing argument in the right way at the right time, people aren't going to change their minds. It's understandable, because I'm to same way. I could 6 people all tell me the same thing, but until I'm ready to hear it, I won't hear them. We all seem to have deaf ears and blind eyes. Also, who am I to tell someone they're lifestyle is wrong, or their thoughts are wrong. I hate people judging me. Why should I judge them? Of course I still judge people, but I try to keep it to myself (my previous post being an exception).

I still think I'm right about most things, but what person doesn't hold to ideas and think they are right? It's implied, by believing it, that we think it's right. I am more willing and open to more ideas than I was when I was younger. I recognize that I'm still young, and have a lot to learn. About people and the world around me. I shouldn't write off the views of people older than me, even if think it's wrong, there is usually a reason why they hold to that view. I might as well find out what lead them to their conclusion. Although, I'll mostly ignore people that have proven to hold to two diametrically opposed views and see it as a problem, also people that don't think the material world exists. I much more inclined to listen to a person that doesn't believe in a soul than a person that thinks all is spirit, or an illusion, or parts of god. They could have something to offer, but it's probably not something that any other world view couldn't figure out.

Very well stated. I have to agree with most of this. Yes, theoretically I realize that I believe that I am right because if I wouldn't have an opinion if I honestly believed I was wrong.

The way you stated it was much more coherent. I do believe that I am right but I am much more open to the idea that someone else could be right and my idea about what right is much more fluid.

 

[Duxwing]

Way to derail the thread. You have quite a knack for the full derail. You might as well have posted pictures of spiderman.

How are you blaming this on me? I simply brought the point up-- frankly, not even broaching the subject in the way that he interpreted it-- and he turned it into a huge discussion!

-Duxwing

 

[Duxwing]

Back to the point can some Admin please remove Duxwings trolling so I can have a real conversation with someone about Juvenile Intellectual issues.

You wouldn't even address the rest of my post! How can you have the gall to complain about derailment?

-Duxwing

 

[Magus]

I'm only 19 so my contribution might be limited but to an extent I can relate to some of what you say. I think I peaked in an arrogance sense between 17-19 but just exposing myself to more and more ideas has certainly weakened my faith in some of my previous dogmas.

I was very much into debating and arguing a few years ago, but more and more so I'm less interesting in 'winning' than in merely toying with either sides ideas to see how they work. To this end I sometimes find myself playing the devils advocate and arguing in favour of ideas I myself aren't particularly attached to. (This has actually led to some of my friends complaining that they don't know where I stand on anything anymore).

I guess my 'progress' so far has been away from taking either side in a case (say the role of the state in x) based on my own prejudices towards trying to understand all the various sides involved, their reasoning/limitations and especially the fundamental axioms and assumptions which drive their position. I'm less concerned with 'picking a side' and justifying it nowadays as trying to understand every viewpoint (but often without forming a strong opinion either way)

 

[The Gopher]

I would like to take the time to thank Duxwing for his excellent example of a Juvenile Intellectual. (I kid)

Personally I've had great success being a complete idiot intellectual. For me it wasn't so much realising I wasn't always right it was realising I wasn't always wrong.

 

[own8ge]

A person whom wants to be an intellect isn't by definition an intellect, but to the contrary more likely a pseudo-intellect.

 

[Kuu]

@Duxwing I suggest you learn how to use PMs to express your advice to other forumers instead of derailing threads.

And that message? Hilarious, but I don't think you were going for comedy...




I was very argumentative and arrogantly expressed my views back when I was 14-15... though I quickly grew out of it. Not because of any particular change of mind, but rather, nobody was really capable of arguing back intelligibly, or even cared about it; it got boring. I became a despairing observer. Eventually I came to realise that there was so much more I was unaware of, and I had been mistaken in many things. One could say I got some lessons in humility. There are many things I look back upon and cringe, or feel shame about. Still I was vindicated in many others, with further information. One thing I was right for sure though: most of my peers were in fact idiots back then and continued to be up to today. A significant proportion of the population is most definitely not driven by a curious outlook and a desire for clarity and truth, but other things...

 

[Solitaire U.]

So you just doubt yourself more now?

-Duxwing

I did not absorb his post thus. Seems more like he no longer feels the need to prove to himself or others that his ideas are sound, valid, correct, etc. To me that's more symbolic of self-assurance than self-doubt.

But whatever. I fully concur. I work with a lot of bright, able, yet totally arrogant, closed-minded, and petrified/threatened by the very idea that they might be wrong teenagers, and young adults for that matter.

Which is why I much prefer to teach kids from age 7 to 11. In this age group I also work with a lot of bright, able kids, but the big difference is that they're open-minded, willing to learn, and not afraid to make and accept their mistakes.

Also, every one of my 45 years on this planet concurs with your OP, chad.

 

[Duxwing]

I did not absorb his post thus. Seems more like he no longer feels the need to prove to himself or others that his ideas are sound, valid, correct, etc. To me that's more symbolic of self-assurance than self-doubt.

That doesn't sound good: skepticism is the basis for good reasoning.

But whatever. I fully concur. I work with a lot of bright, able, yet totally arrogant, closed-minded, and petrified/threatened by the very idea that they might be wrong teenagers, and young adults for that matter.

How do they get that way?

-Duxwing

 

[Brontosaurie]

own8ge where are you from?

your "written accent" somehow suggests either benelux or india.

 

[Solitaire U.]

How do they get that way?

-Duxwing

It's the triple P syndrome.

Puberty

Peer Pressure

Parents that are always right, even when they're wrong.

Actually, that's an over-simplified explanation. Really, it seems like the majority of teenagers I've worked with are simply emulating the older adults in their lives. Also, they're both self-absorbed and overly concerned about what their peers think of them. It's like, when they know they suck at something, that something suddenly becomes stupid, and they don a cool, detached, "I don't need this shit in my life anyway" facade to save face with their classmates. They don't value what they refuse to understand. It scares them, and that fear severely threatens their projected bullshit of not being afraid of anything (especially the boys).

Problem is, two or three (and there are always two or three) attitudes like this can destroy the ambition and drive of an entire class. This is why I quit teaching EFL in formal academies. The personal reward factor was totally lacking.

Strangely, I privately tutored one 15 year old boy in his home. This kid was a total shit in my class, and I didn't expect to get anywhere with him in private sessions (I only agreed to do it because I needed the money), but surprisingly enough, he was an entirely different animal in a one on one setting, as long as his parents weren't hovering over him cracking the whip. I see a lot of that in my private tutoring endeavors, unfortunately.

Teens here are afraid of EFL, mostly because there's so much pressure to learn and succeed at it. It's not like in the US where you coast through two years of Spanish Grammar without ever having to actually speak the language. There's major pressure here for these kids to become fluent speakers. All the best jobs demand English fluency, and their parents know it.

But I digress. I love my 3rd and 4th graders. None of that triple P garbage impedes them. With primary aged kids teachers are still paternal, as opposed to authority figures. Makes my job a lot easier and more rewarding.

Should have focused on primary education from the beginning.

 

[Duxwing]

It's the triple P syndrome.

Puberty

Could you go into more detail?

Peer Pressure

(Let's see if I understand your theory. I'll put it in my own words below)

All teens (T1) are worried about the negative social consequences of trying and failing in front of their peers and therefore this worry causes a subset of all teens (T2) to avoid anything that they're not good at on the first try by placing a high risk on attempting something new (R1) or persevering (R2).

Parents that are always right, even when they're wrong.

Ha! I knew it! I knew it! I knew it! Oh, sorry, hehe. I'm just happy because I've been pondering this topic myself whilst observing my classmates. One of them looks like he's got some deep doubt inside him banging on a cage of ego defense mechanisms. He laughs nervously, harriedly--almost subserviently--whenever his ideas are challenged, and I'd long thought that his parents indoctrinated him and put some sort of cognitive 'electric fence' around whatever cognitive processes that he'd need to challenge them or their beliefs. And when I met his parents: analysis confirmed.

His mom is a highly traditional religious basket case who has a rules of behavior poster on the inside of her bathroom door that looks like it came out of the 1950s. After I'd interrupted her in a conversation (bad habit!) she tried to shut me down not with "Not done yet" or "Let me finish" but with the bone-chilling "I'm an adult, and it is not your place to interrupt me." If my creep-o-meter were running high on that visit, that line--coupled with her later mention of her son attending a "faith group"--sent it off the charts!

Bleugh. So slimy.

Actually, that's an over-simplified explanation. Really, it seems like the majority of teenagers I've worked with are simply emulating the older adults in their lives. Also, they're both self-absorbed and overly concerned about what their peers think of them. It's like, when they know they suck at something, that something suddenly becomes stupid, and they don a cool, detached, "I don't need this shit in my life anyway" facade to save face with their classmates. They don't value what they refuse to understand. It scares them, and that fear severely threatens their projected bullshit of not being afraid of anything (especially the boys).

Problem is, two or three (and there are always two or three) attitudes like this can destroy the ambition and drive of an entire class. This is why I quit teaching EFL in formal academies. The personal reward factor was totally lacking.

Strangely, I privately tutored one 15 year old boy in his home. This kid was a total shit in my class, and I didn't expect to get anywhere with him in private sessions (I only agreed to do it because I needed the money), but surprisingly enough, he was an entirely different animal in a one on one setting, as long as his parents weren't hovering over him cracking the whip. I see a lot of that in my private tutoring endeavors, unfortunately.

Teens here are afraid of EFL, mostly because there's so much pressure to learn and succeed at it. It's not like in the US where you coast through two years of Spanish Grammar without ever having to actually speak the language. There's major pressure here for these kids to become fluent speakers. All the best jobs demand English fluency, and their parents know it.

But I digress. I love my 3rd and 4th graders. None of that triple P garbage impedes them. With primary aged kids teachers are still paternal, as opposed to authority figures. Makes my job a lot easier and more rewarding.

Should have focused on primary education from the beginning.

Awww, I can just imagine you know: twenty little rascals whirling around your knees as you try to explain how "It's naht a toomah!" So what do you teach now?

-Duxwing

 

[Ink]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXcWeFn-YYM

 

[C.Hecker88]

own8ge where are you from?

your "written accent" somehow suggests either benelux or india.

His writing accent suggests that his main language is Dutch, I believe.

As to where he lives, I do not know.

 

[Ink]

I'm only 19, but I was such an arrogant asshole after puberty hit me especially, on occasions I still can be of course but I'm a work in progress...

 

[Montresor]

You heard it here first folks, when Chad is on trial for strangling his kids to death, remember not to rule out the possibility that they were dicks about how smart they were.


Edit: I believe this is pretty much signature worthy:

Back to the point can some Admin please remove Duxwings trolling so I can have a real conversation with someone about Juvenile Intellectual issues.

 

[Solitaire U.]

Could you go into more detail?

No, because it's easier if you just wait awhile longer and experience it yourself.

(Let's see if I understand your theory. I'll put it in my own words below)

All teens (T1) are worried about the negative social consequences of trying and failing in front of their peers and therefore this worry causes a subset of all teens (T2) to avoid anything that they're not good at on the first try by placing a high risk on attempting something new (R1) or persevering (R2).

Pretty much. Actually, succeeding at unpopular things, like learning, is also at risk of having negative social consequences. "We don't need to learn, because we already know."

Awww, I can just imagine you know: twenty little rascals whirling around your knees as you try to explain how "It's naht a toomah!" So what do you teach now?

-Duxwing

Actually it's more like 38. Mostly, I teach them how to jump through hoops, because that's what the curriculum I'm provided with demands. On a good day, none of them will fall, and there will be no scraped knees to bandage.

I can't speak for the other classes, but MY kids are very well-trained.

 

[Absurdity]

I don't think I'm old or wise enough to comment on this topic in any depth yet. I'm in my early 20s right now and therefore still in the process of realizing ways I've been (and am) arrogant or idiotic.

Certainly stings my pride but it's also exciting to realize the ways in which you can improve, and then go about implementing them.

 

[Duxwing]

No, because it's easier if you just wait awhile longer and experience it yourself.

I'm already well into puberty, and I haven't noticed much change except for a greater sense of self-awareness, increased intelligence, and the addition of a sex drive. I used to be somewhat more judgmental and closed-minded in my early teens, but I've (hopefully) lost much of those two vices through discipline and training. My real question was "How does the biological process of puberty effect intellectual change?".

Pretty much. Actually, succeeding at unpopular things, like learning, is also at risk of having negative social consequences. "We don't need to learn, because we already know."

Yep. The nerd gets the swirlie. That's not quite as common where I'm from--in my experience, intelligence and wit, well applied, are often lauded by even the dimmest of bulbs at my school-- but I can understand how it can happen in places without a culture of education or with a culture of stagnation (in other words, you play it how you hear it).

Also, what are the sizes of T1 and R1 relative to those of T2 and R2, respectively?

Actually it's more like 38. Mostly, I teach them how to jump through hoops, because that's what the curriculum I'm provided with demands. On a good day, none of them will fall, and there will be no scraped knees to bandage.

:_( That's quite sad when you put it that way: the young are on a race to nowhere and their egos are on the line. Yet, without the 'hoops'--tests, quizzes, and the like--how are we to know whether a student has learned? Many years ago, before the hoops, illiterate students would graduate my high school.

I can't speak for the other classes, but MY kids are very well-trained.

Awwww. And yet I feel an odd twinge of Orwellian disturbance in hearing students being described as "trained". Does your school (effectively) make the kids recite the pledge of allegience? They have us recite it every morning, and the one teacher in our school who advised his students against doing it (legally, it isn't mandatory because a pledge under duress is meaningless) nearly got into trouble with administration. I can understand the idea of not wanting the school to push an ideology--he is a socialist--but by that logic, the Pledge should not be in any way supported by the school.

Currently, our school news system asks us to stand and pledge and recites it live every morning. Anti-dogmatism, my eye!

-Duxwing

 

[Puffy]

Does this have to do with identifying as an intellectual of sorts? I feel like I might have missed this phase due to being a late bloomer of sorts.

I see where people are coming from, and I'm sure it applies on some level, but I don't personally identify. But I think it's because I never thought of myself as a particularly intelligent person. I did well in class, but wasn't among the top peers, so to speak, wasn't interested in studying or reading in my own time, etc. Didn't really do anything creative.

Only thing I think I could have been arrogent with was my music taste, as I've never liked the mainstream much and only knew a few people who listened to similar things. But then, I remember a lot of people talking about music with me, and I was always polite if I didn't like something much.

I feel I had a creative/ intellectual spurt starting about 4 years ago (I'm 23). I felt overwhelmed then by all the things I'd missed out on and could know, and so never felt I could be arrogent about my own position, it felt inadequate. I still always feel lost in this unnavigatable sea of information.

I debated with a few people at the time, but it quickly occurred to me that the debate format rarely goes anywhere: just two sets of people asserting their belief, no give and take. It's possible I'm coming more arrogent now, though I doubt wildly so.

 

[Lot]

Only thing I think I could have been arrogent with was my music taste, as I've never liked the mainstream much and only knew a few people who listened to similar things. But then, I remember a lot of people talking about music with me, and I was always polite if I didn't like something much.

This reminds me of an entire facet of arrogance. I was and still kind of am a music snob. In high school I took pride in liking "real" punk music. Brag about knowing Dead Kennedy's song and knowing a bunch of obscure punk bands from the 80's. I hated anyone who liked poppy sounding punk bands, but secretly I loved the sound of pop punk. I took me till I was 20 to admit it.

Shortly after high school, I would brag about listening to classical and Jazz. I would rub it in people's faces. I did this until I was 23. I was such a prick about music. I remember punching my younger brother in the face because he was making fun of a song I liked. But that was back in the punk faze.

More memories to try not to ruminate about lol

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

14-17 I wasn't stable. I had similar thinking patterns as those expressed in the OP, it's just that they resulted in direct confrontation with institutions I wasn't equipped to deal with at the time.

18 was when I first became involved in political theory, while working for a large retail chain. "Debate" was an autoerotic point scoring contest, the benefit of which was an increased capacity for critical thought and an ability to research and source information. Everything was based on my own preconceptions, which slowly shifted. This didn't subside until I was 20 and became more social.

Life development was apparently average from then on, occupied by fun and entertaining intellectual pursuits, until I discovered this forum (~23, 24), which resulted in a seemingly exponential increase in philosophical development. I have no idea what's next, though I now find my "debate" to be centered on the discovery of truth and dispute/dichotomy resolution/integration. With this shift has come a more spiritual, omniscient sense to existence.

I am also interested in have a gender discussion as I only really understand these issue form a male perspective and I am curious if they transfer over to the female perspective or is the development different for adolescence intellectual females.

Mostly my curiosity come form a conversation I had with my wife about how are theoretical children may act in there juvenile years. Both my wife and I are Intellectuals however I am xNTP and she is ISTJ.

I don't think this is a developmental process that everyone experiences. I assume intuitives are much more likely to experience its full length. This is also similar to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Disintegration


In terms of gender, I'm not sure if there are differences between gender within a group of the same personality type.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

It's the triple P syndrome.

Perspective, Potential, and Provocation?

I feel I had a creative/ intellectual spurt starting about 4 years ago (I'm 23).

And not yet ending, amirite? Mine is in the midst of its first real nosedive since then, at 24. Wonder what's next?

 

[Puffy]

@thehabitatdoctor - Yeah, I don't see it ending too soon... well hopefully.

Interesting. What is it about this forum that made the change in you? I'm curious as mine was parallel to me joining this forum. I was always bright enough to get through exams with okay grades and things, but there was never anyone around me who seemed intellectually superior, so to speak. There was just people who can write a good exam answer and people who can't. This forum was when I first encountered people with more sophisticated worldviews, and it really challenged me to keep up/ explore. Particularly, Da Blob, Kuu and Lyra at the time, I think.

@Lot - I have to admit I do this a little, mostly around my parents. I don't think I'm really outspoken about it, but there is always a kind of snobbery that comes with having individuated tastes.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

I was always bright enough to get through exams with okay grades and things, but there was never anyone around me who seemed intellectually superior, so to speak.

I believe this has been the state of my ancestry for at least the past two centuries.
I was deprived of real competition until I was ~18 or so.

Interesting. What is it about this forum that made the change in you? This forum was when I first encountered people with more sophisticated worldviews, and it really challenged me to keep up/ explore. Particularly, Da Blob, Kuu and Lyra at the time, I think.

Ditto. To be honest, it was the feud between Da Blob and Cog et al. I saw how both were correct and incorrect simultaneously. A.I. also played a role. The value of an intelligent opponent shouldn't be neglected.

EDIT* I should also add that ^this coincided with my obsession with Systems Theory as well as a well defined hypo/manic state.

In a way I believe intpf member turnover (remember the "forum, then and now" thread?) is because the forum serves as an area for development. Beyond a certain point, people leave, whether mentally or physically. More recently, Episkopos and Chaos/Pleroma have had further influence. I have read some of Kuu's posts from the Tekton days, but I have yet to explore much from Lyra and I only recently began interacting with LoR, so I think there's more for me here.

 

[The Introvert]

I feel I had a creative/ intellectual spurt starting about 4 years ago (I'm 23).

W00t! Beginning of creative/ intellectual spurt has begun!

And here I thought I was just feeling healthy

In reference to OP (I think):
I've always enjoyed arguing, if only for argument's sake. This may be more of a familial trait than one of being "an intellectual", however.

As far as feeling "more intelligent" than others, or thinking that I knew more than I did/do, I don't think this is unusual for any teenager. However, I've generally been a humble person throughout my life and expressing any personal feelings of pride or arrogance just has never been my style - even if I may really think it.

 

[Puffy]

W00t! Beginning of creative/ intellectual spurt has begun!

And here I thought I was just feeling healthy

Hehe, follow your intuition is all I can say.

 

[The Introvert]

Hehe, follow your intuition is all I can say.

Ni-dom FTW!

 

[scorpiomover]

I came from a family, and a community of super-smart people. My late dad was super-smart, writer, violinist, lecturer, farmer, soldier, antiques dealer. He has books in the US Library of Congress, even though his book was published here, in a very limited edition, and is not that well-known. One of my really top teachers read his book, and said that his dad would wipe the floor with him when it came to the topic, and my dad's book was above even that. My mum is scary good at many things, accountancy, dress-making, to name but 2. My older brother, an INTJ, was making predictions on the stock market at age 6, and was right pretty much every time. I grew up knowing many doctors, lawyers, accountants. One of my friend's dads was a computer lecturer in the 70s. He brought a computer to the primary school fair. Another guy at my local synagogue, is the top doctor in the UK, and advises the government on medical issues. In secondary school (11-18), most of my teachers had PhDs. One teacher had a few PhDs. These weren't even the smartest people I met, not by a long chalk. One of my teachers in college, would quote from books, while his eyes moved as if he was reading it right off the page. Another guy, who used to sit in the main hall and make clothes, would correct the students as they read from the text, while he was making his clothes.

I used to think that I was useless at most things. My confidence was ridiculously low.

Most of the time, others would be able to come up with one sentence, that would destroy my ideas to pieces. The older people who ran the groups I was in, and my teachers, seemed to understand me, and when they explained my views to everyone else, everyone thought it was a really good point.

From about 6-18, I was in a youth movement. They'd discuss all sorts of issues, mostly political in nature. They'd get us to discuss the issues and have mini-debates. Arguing was normal for my cultural background. But by 15, I was at a weekend, and everyone was arguing in groups. I suddenly noticed the expressions on their faces. They weren't just animated. They were out of control. At that point, I realised that debate wasn't about truth, but about winning. I decided that it was not something that would be that useful to me.

I did go through a period, when I did think that I was smarter than other people. The youth group would take us all on hikes. They got lost a lot, despite maps and compasses. I'd try to get a look at the map, and try to identify where we were, by landmarks, and the contours of the landscape, and tried to work out which direction to go in. I often thought that the direction the leader had chosen, was the wrong one. But I lacked the confidence to speak up. A lot of the time, I was right, and we ended up lost again.

First time I recalled that I got called "arrogant", was when I was 23, in university, by a girl that I liked.

But by this stage, I'd met so many supposedly stupid people, who, with a simple adage, had revealed to me an important truth, that I valued everyone.

Could this be, that an INTP develops teenage arrogance, only if his/her parents were not nearly as good at academic subjects as he/she is?

 

[Chad]

I came from a family, and a community of super-smart people. My late dad was super-smart, writer, violinist, lecturer, farmer, soldier, antiques dealer. He has books in the US Library of Congress, even though his book was published here, in a very limited edition, and is not that well-known. One of my really top teachers read his book, and said that his dad would wipe the floor with him when it came to the topic, and my dad's book was above even that. My mum is scary good at many things, accountancy, dress-making, to name but 2. My older brother, an INTJ, was making predictions on the stock market at age 6, and was right pretty much every time. I grew up knowing many doctors, lawyers, accountants. One of my friend's dads was a computer lecturer in the 70s. He brought a computer to the primary school fair. Another guy at my local synagogue, is the top doctor in the UK, and advises the government on medical issues. In secondary school (11-18), most of my teachers had PhDs. One teacher had a few PhDs. These weren't even the smartest people I met, not by a long chalk. One of my teachers in college, would quote from books, while his eyes moved as if he was reading it right off the page. Another guy, who used to sit in the main hall and make clothes, would correct the students as they read from the text, while he was making his clothes.

I used to think that I was useless at most things. My confidence was ridiculously low.

Most of the time, others would be able to come up with one sentence, that would destroy my ideas to pieces. The older people who ran the groups I was in, and my teachers, seemed to understand me, and when they explained my views to everyone else, everyone thought it was a really good point.

From about 6-18, I was in a youth movement. They'd discuss all sorts of issues, mostly political in nature. They'd get us to discuss the issues and have mini-debates. Arguing was normal for my cultural background. But by 15, I was at a weekend, and everyone was arguing in groups. I suddenly noticed the expressions on their faces. They weren't just animated. They were out of control. At that point, I realised that debate wasn't about truth, but about winning. I decided that it was not something that would be that useful to me.

I did go through a period, when I did think that I was smarter than other people. The youth group would take us all on hikes. They got lost a lot, despite maps and compasses. I'd try to get a look at the map, and try to identify where we were, by landmarks, and the contours of the landscape, and tried to work out which direction to go in. I often thought that the direction the leader had chosen, was the wrong one. But I lacked the confidence to speak up. A lot of the time, I was right, and we ended up lost again.

First time I recalled that I got called "arrogant", was when I was 23, in university, by a girl that I liked.

But by this stage, I'd met so many supposedly stupid people, who, with a simple adage, had revealed to me an important truth, that I valued everyone.

Could this be, that an INTP develops teenage arrogance, only if his/her parents were not nearly as good at academic subjects as he/she is?

Thanks for the perspective. This may be true at least for me.

My mother was a stay at home mom and never finished 8th grade. More recently I have started to realize how wise she is though. She has made many mistakes in her own life but she learned form all of it and I would have to say even with her lower then average intellect that she is most likely the wisest person I have meet.

My father got my mother pregnant when he was in tenth grade. He dropped out of school for a year and when he came back he tested out of the 11th grade right into 12th. However, he never finished his last year of high school. I sometimes wonder how brilliant my father might be. He is a very quit man and says very little. Though I have recognized that he has nearly a photographic memory for T.V. shows and movies. If he seen it even once he can almost quote it line for line. Also my father is much faster at doing math in his head then I am. As a teenager I thought my father was a moron mostly because he never finished school. However, as an adult I am not so sure. He could be a genius. Just a quit one that really doesn't feel the need to express his genius. My father has always been very proud and supportive of my education. I often wonder were he would be if his life had been different as a child/teen.