Jordan Peterson

[ZenRaiden]

This guy basically brings up the most profound omission from JPeterson in psychology, coming from his book.
Id say many experts actually disagree with JPeterson.
But as usual experts ....

 

[Black Rose]

Jordan had nightmares of nuclear winter.

I saw his interview in early 2017 about logos.

Logos is the spirit of the mind to create reality.

He said he was concerned that people were trying to take away ones voice.

Without a voice, you have no power, and to take away the voice is to kill the divine.

When I searched for his father, Google said he interviewed his father.

I did not watch it, too tired right now, but look at him, Is this a traumatized family?

 

[ZenRaiden]

I did not watch it, too tired right now, but look at him, Is this a traumatized family?

People need to stop confusing knowledge and belief.
Knowledge is something that really is, belief is either true or false, but its still remains a belief.
And to answer your question, yeah to best of my knowledge of trauma I do think JP is profoundly traumatized individual.
Traumatized people often do function in life.
Else how would Trump become president of one of the biggest nations in the world.
Trauma does not always equal dysfunction.
Unfortunately todays psychology is without intelligence.

 

[Black Rose]

Trauma does not always equal dysfunction.

I guess my real curiosity is why trauma leads some people to hate their parents.

Why does Jordan not hate his parents if traumatized?

And why do some parents hate their adult offspring?

 

[ZenRaiden]

Trauma does not always equal dysfunction.

I guess my real curiosity is why trauma leads some people to hate their parents.

Why does Jordan not hate his parents if traumatized?

And why do some parents hate their adult offspring?

Trauma is not personal. Parents pass on all energy to their offspring. Trauma is information your parents had about the world. They pass it on to you to ensure better survival. Unfortunately we keep forgetting that parenting is not 100 percent guaranteed. In fact in nature its common to fail and die.
You are thinking like a human who grew up in a world where death is rare outcome.
Humans existed for most of evolution in a world where death was more common outcome than life.
On other hand take for example the Aztec societal trauma of human sacrifice.
Humans had all kinds of weird ways of dealing with problems.
Does not mean much today, as the world your parents were born into no longer exists, on societal level or financial or knowledge level.
People in the past, nay even one generation down, knew less, and hence in many ways were idiots.
We know slightly more hence we should not act like idiots anymore.
Live and learn.

 

[Black Rose]

You are thinking like a human who grew up in a world where death is rare outcome.

Humans had all kinds of weird ways of dealing with problems.

I spend all day in front of a computer and have no girlfriend.

It is very likely trauma caused me to separate from society so I would not reproduce.

In the past, this would be to an advantage because hunter-gatherer communities cared about depressed people and then you become able to kill animals and eat and got over it. today no one cares about you socially anymore, the government gives you a check and you die alone in a room with no windows.

Society in the past forced you to interact with others. then you did not die. Reproduction happened early. you had no time to watch TV or read or study or any other distractions from sex like jobs and stuff. There were no asylums so if you were traumatized it was not enough to stop reproduction.

Jordan was in a time when people's society forced you to interact. You had nothing better to do. I feel that is less the case today.

 

[dr froyd]

guy in the video sounds legit, but one shouldn't forget one thing: at some point the kid starts getting influences from outside the home – not all of these influences will be good

 

[ZenRaiden]

guy in the video sounds legit, but one shouldn't forget one thing: at some point the kid starts getting influences from outside the home – not all of these influences will be good

Yes, its a clusterfuck and most parents set hard rules on certain behaviors.

Key harmful thing is that children don't know how to learn at early age, other than trial and error. If the child is too afraid to express emotions due to retribution, that child will swallow the emotion inward, and never express it again. Which leads to development where the child never learns to moderate the emotion socially.
That leads to depression like the one JP has. Suppression of emotion of any kind is bad. Its only once the child misbehaves the adult can teach the child what to do with the emotion. The key difference is the child does not need adversarial relationship with parent. It needs a parent that helps the child to moderate and regulate emotion.
Children are primed by nature to be angry. Knowing how to express anger is key component of knowing how to handle the emotion.
Even adults don't always know how to handle anger.
Its a difficult skill to acquire. The key here is that what JP says can lead people mistakenly to shutting children down before they even learn to process and moderate anger.
Children instinctively know that adults can kill them. It does not matter what the parent thinks. It matters what the child unconscious thinks.
So the child will be healthy if it always gets the ability to express emotions. Even if they are misplaced.
Unfortunately JPs advice can lead parents to a pattern behavior where the child never has the ability to express anger at all, thus never experience anger, and thus lack wiring for regulating and expressing anger.
Anger is basic foundation emotion. Unexpressed anger will go inward and cause depression and autoimmune disease. In theory of course, but Dr Mate claims this is the case.
In reality this is new research.

The spooky and fucked up thing is many parents are doing this without knowing its harmful. Which is cause for concern. Some parents intuitively know to accept bullshit from children. Trouble is emotions are necessary to express however they are.
We live in culture where anger is often viewed especially in children is misbehaving.
Unfortunately children are aggressive monkeys from emotional point of view.
Before they become sapient they simply behave the best they can which is often plain and simple aggression and throwing tantrums.
The healthy thing to do is to let it happen and then help the child to direct that anger and moderate it. If the parent so to speak shuts it down all the time they run the risk of the child being reluctant to express it. Realistically the anger actually will still be there.

What is important is I think that JP advice might actually be good for some kids.
Not so great for other kids.

 

[dr froyd]

honestly initially when i read rule 5 i thought it said "dont do anything that would make your children dislike you" – which to me would make a lot more sense

 

[birdsnestfern]

Dr. Spock early books 1950s era taught parents to let children cry themselves to sleep or leave them to their own devices.
I think they changed to be more empathetic in the 70s though. But, so much dysfunction is probably related to being neglected as babies and children because of this Dr's parenting books.

Oriental babies that are carried around on backs in rice paddies while the Mother works all day are close to their Mother and have no such behavioral issues. And the more you carry a baby and let it know you listen to its needs, and respond to it, the healthier the person will be. Neglect also means just leaving a baby in a crib or play pen for too long or not paying attention because of the incredible busy life everyone has now. Mothers have to work full time while leaving kids in child care and they just get left alone too much. I think most of the issues kids have is because their parents didn't pay any attention to them, or it was lacking love or being listened to.

 

[Black Rose]

Anger is basic foundation emotion. Unexpressed anger will go inward and cause depression and autoimmune disease. In theory of course, but Dr Mate claims this is the case.
In reality this is new research.

The report I received a few years ago said I turn my anger inward. I expect to be taken advantage of and stopped trying to express myself because of retaliation. I switch between rational thinking and emotional self-pity, everything is my fault.

-

I was thinking about trust. You cannot have love without trust. But then trust comes from reliability on others. You cannot not trust an unreliable person. Children who have chaotic environments do not feel safe enough to do certain things. They need a parent or caregiver to keep them safe, so they learn how to get attention in any way possible. That could be acting out or it could be giving up. Confusion is also common.

When people have children they expect the child to listen and when they do not they treat them as if they are unreliable and when that happens they project their insecurities onto the child. That could be anger but it could also be desperation or teasing or disappointment. In any way, the child does not feel good enough to be loved. They also expect that everyone will treat them in the way they were treated in the past. A sense of entitlement / rejection.

What comes of this is a self-image. I am this, I am treated in this way, I treat others in that way. Ego defense happens negative or positive. The child triggers insecurity and the parent reacts to them, to secure the parent's ego. The child reacts to that reaction and they become insecure. The parent does not trust the child and the child does not trust the parent. Vicious cycle of unreliability.

The Medicated Child (full documentary) | FRONTLINE (2008)

 

[ZenRaiden]

The report I received a few years ago said I turn my anger inward. I expect to be taken advantage of and stopped trying to express myself because of retaliation. I switch between rational thinking and emotional self-pity, everything is my fault.

Yes. Anger is backbone of our psyche. Its part of what drives us. Most of my problems are that I am also sometimes angry and hate myself. Its subconscious. Consciously I don't know this, but my unconscious mind behaves this way. Then it impacts the things I do.

I switch between rational thinking and emotional self-pity, everything is my fault.

Yes emotions don't work unless we can express them naturally. Unfortunately for that you have to be around people who can accept your emotions. Most people won't.

I was thinking about trust. You cannot have love without trust.

Actually you cannot have anything without trust. Trust is built and given.
People who don't have anyone in life that they trust in are not bonding.
Bonding is about trust. Love and trust are basically the same language.

Children who have chaotic environments do not feel safe enough to do certain things. They need a parent or caregiver to keep them safe, so they learn how to get attention in any way possible. That could be acting out or it could be giving up. Confusion is also common.

Basically what you need ideally is environment where you feel safe. But it also has to be with people who trust you and you them. A step forward is people being able the accept you the way you are including your emotions. Its two way street.
You can give trust, but if you give it to wrong people they will abuse you.
You have to trust people who accept the whole you.
But you also have to be able to experience the whole you.

When people have children they expect the child to listen and when they do not they treat them as if they are unreliable and when that happens they project their insecurities onto the child. That could be anger but it could also be desperation or teasing or disappointment. In any way, the child does not feel good enough to be loved. They also expect that everyone will treat them in the way they were treated in the past. A sense of entitlement / rejection.

What comes of this is a self-image. I am this, I am treated in this way, I treat others in that way. Ego defense happens negative or positive. The child triggers insecurity and the parent reacts to them, to secure the parent's ego. The child reacts to that reaction and they become insecure. The parent does not trust the child and the child does not trust the parent. Vicious cycle of unreliability.

This is true for all humans and mammals. OF all ages. So you absolutely get this.
Grown ups need this too.
People are part of our environment.
Family is the first environment we have.
Luckily it does not have to be the only environment.
As an adult you might find someone who can be your friend.
But it has to be someone in real life.
Bond over distance might work, I guess, but there are people who can be anything on the internet. Its not exactly ideal.
In real time next to people bonding works on its own merit, and trust is more visceral.
Over internet even you aren't getting real feedback. You need a nonverbal and verbal dynamic in real life.
You need someone who you can trust and help you for real and have your back.