J

[Jesin]

What to do when Js insist too strongly on rigorous planning and scheduling? And do they really expect us to know everything we're going to do before we start doing it?

I understand we have a few Js on this board. So, Js, what do you have to say about this?

 

[Linsejko]

That's immaturity of a J, in a "pure" case described above. It's micromanaging leadership, which fundamentally undermines trust of those under you.

On the other hand, this could be immaturity in response to immaturity- often times "P" types really should be more structured, and are being inefficient. The "J" is just really frustrated and doesn't trust the P to do his job, and so starts to micromanage.

A kind of intolerant inflexibility is simply... blind to the fact that not everyone works with equal efficiency using the same methods. Either remove yourself from being under their leadership, or confront them (I advise you do so kindly).

.L

 

[Kuu]

I'm not a J. But what I do in this situation is...

Say no until J gives up. If J has supernatural stubbornness, say yes. Then proceed with your usual go-with-the-flowness. When J's inevitable anger seems imminent, devise cunning lie as to why J's plan was flawed from the start. With enough repetition there will be these possible outcomes:

a) J will eventually learn that you cannot give direction to an ocean.
b) J will become depressed because s/he is a complete failure.
c) J will hate you.
d) Sum (A, B)
e) Sum (A, C)
f) Sum (B, C)
g) All of the above

But any of those is better than submission to J. If you do choose the road of submission, then J better be warned and ready when YOU hate him, become depressed, and consequently abort or sabotage the entire plan anyway.

(I have few friends, so what?)

 

[murkrow]

Now I can only really give insight into how to deal with a TJ (and possibly only NTJ) but here's my best.

Be honest always.
If you do not share the goal that the planning is working towards, make that known as quickly as possible
If you are interested in the goal then make it very clear to them that you are most efficient when working in your own way.
If they are a gifted strategist and organizer then they will be more than capable of organizing their own time frames and responsibilities around yours.
You will be pleasantly surprised by the incredibly suitable jobs you will be given by an NTJ when they are perfectly aware of your capabilities and tendencies.

As much as we don't expect you to know everything before you start it, we do have a goal in mind and we will share it with you.

Our judgments arise from perceptions, so be always ready to supply us with the bounty of your perception. The goal is likely to change when you discover something we overlooked. The goal is likely the result of something you said to us two months ago and we've been building into a death ray skyscraper.

 

[Thread Killer]

Reasoning with them (at least if they are T types) seems to work some of the time. If you disagree with their plans, they will sometimes yield if you can provide a decent argument. Try not to lose your head by their stubbornness. Often they don't trust us Ps to take care of business or make things run smoothly as mentioned before. So they treat us like children. It's entirely aggravating and I have a hard time not containing my anger often times, but I've gotten a bit better. In any case, the truth is they, Js I mean, have a valid point. The more you develop your judging functions the more this makes sense. Now, even though I am a P (look at my living quarters), I appreciate a decent dose of structure, with important matters especially, but I find more and more that I have low tolerance for BSing and frivolous past times unless it's on my terms, my time, and by myself preferably, however, this only came about the more I pushed myself to act more like a judger just to cope with hectic schedules and obligations.

 

[Jesin]

If they are a gifted strategist and organizer then they will be more than capable of organizing their own time frames and responsibilities around yours.
You will be pleasantly surprised by the incredibly suitable jobs you will be given by an NTJ when they are perfectly aware of your capabilities and tendencies.

As much as we don't expect you to know everything before you start it, we do have a goal in mind and we will share it with you.

It can be hard for people to fit their schedules to mine when I don't have a schedule. P types are often indecisive. How would you attempt to fit a new piece into a structure you're building when the piece can't decide what it's shaped like?

 

[Linsejko]

P types have shapes.....

..........they're just more like jello than stone.

Maybe you have a point? That is indeed a frustration to J's, but that should only be a temporary state for a P- you should eventually find your 'role', your best existent state, or your useful combination of traits that are best. If you don't have a schedule, you should make one solely for the purpose of functioning within a group.

.L

 

[murkrow]

It can be hard for people to fit their schedules to mine when I don't have a schedule. P types are often indecisive. How would you attempt to fit a new piece into a structure you're building when the piece can't decide what it's shaped like?

You wouldn't be used as a cornerstone.

All in all the lower functioning (and therefore more aimlessly rebellions in my opinion) Ps can be used for little else than inspiration and sporadically contributing members of the creative/imaginative side of an endeavor.

But once a P has enough self confidence (once again my opinion, but you'll have a hard time convincing me otherwise) to commit to an idea then they can be used in ways that counter their jello-like tendencies. INTPs like to read stuff so they can make good researchers. They are good at critical thinking and therefore are good at final revisions of concepts.

I think all in all the best applications of INTPs is to keep them as a sort of lone gun within an operation which you fire at whatever might pique their interests. When they actually care enough to do something they can be very productive.

My annoyance with INTPs is when they say "I don't feel like it right now, give me a day." and then you respond with a day or time frame and they totally forget about it.


I have a long way to go before I can utilize an INTP to the fullest, any input would be fantastic.

 

[Jesin]

You wouldn't be used as a cornerstone.

All in all the lower functioning (and therefore more aimlessly rebellions in my opinion) Ps can be used for little else than inspiration and sporadically contributing members of the creative/imaginative side of an endeavor.

Yes, I think I could be described as one of the lower-functioning Ps. But hey, I'm just finishing my freshman year in high school, I shouldn't be expected to know exactly what I'm going to do with myself.

But once a P has enough self confidence (once again my opinion, but you'll have a hard time convincing me otherwise) to commit to an idea then they can be used in ways that counter their jello-like tendencies. INTPs like to read stuff so they can make good researchers. They are good at critical thinking and therefore are good at final revisions of concepts.

I think all in all the best applications of INTPs is to keep them as a sort of lone gun within an operation which you fire at whatever might pique their interests. When they actually care enough to do something they can be very productive.

Those seem like good ideas. You have some experience organizing INTPs, am I right?

My annoyance with INTPs is when they say "I don't feel like it right now, give me a day." and then you respond with a day or time frame and they totally forget about it.

Hmm, is that an exact quote? I would interpret "give me a day" not as "assign me a day" but as "let me have a length of time approximately equal to a day".

But yes, I do sometimes forget about deadlines.

 

[murkrow]

I have an INTP friend and I troll this forum pretty much non stop.

I have experience planning what to do with INTPs.

Yeah, that's a direct quote. And whether it means "let me have this much time" or "what day do you want to deal with this" it sinks to the back of the mind either way.

 

[Kuu]

I have a long way to go before I can utilize an INTP to the fullest, any input would be fantastic.

INTPs are independent thinkers. You can not "utilize" us. We are individualists, separate from society and it's goals. We like to decide what, how, and when we do things, and also have the liberty to change those at any moment. You can only hope that what you do also happens to interest us...

I generally avoid teamwork. But I have had plenty of experience working with other P types. I then (kicking and screaming) have to assume the J role. I make 2 schedules, one with the real due dates for me, and a earlier, false one for the other Ps. This must of course be absolutely secret. That way I can safely deal with their procrastination. It's then only a matter of me sticking to the plan... but this should be easier for a J.

 

[murkrow]

INTPs are independent thinkers. You can not "utilize" us. We are individualists, separate from society and it's goals. We like to decide what, how, and when we do things, and also have the liberty to change those at any moment. You can only hope that what you do also happens to interest us...

Sorry, I'd forgotten that INTPs break the laws of physics and are absolutely impossible to ever work into any structure.

*gasp* Could it be possible that the most efficient structures actually emulate the natural social state of human beings?!

*gasp* Can you imagine what life would be like if INTPs were to develop and then have their ideas adopted and perfected by the rest of mankind?!

Oh wait, that's THE REAL FUCKING WORLD!

 

[Jesin]

Tekton, you need to work on grokking what other people are saying before you respond.

Murkrow, when someone fails to understand what you have said, attempt to explain yourself more clearly before resorting to insulting sarcasm.

---

Murkrow, what definition of "troll" are you using when you say "I troll this forum pretty much non stop"?

Actually, given the entire sentence and not just the second part, I think "I don't feel like it right now, give me a day" probably means "Not right now, ask me again tomorrow."

 

[murkrow]

Yeah I'd love to learn to translate the things INTPs say to get me to back off. I think it'll come with more experience.

When I say troll I just mean that I often log onto the page, see that I still have most of the recent posts and then come back every 5 minutes to refresh for the next few hours.

 

[Kuu]

Tekton, you need to work on grokking what other people are saying before you respond.

Point duly noted.

 

[Vrecknidj]

What to do when Js insist too strongly on rigorous planning and scheduling? And do they really expect us to know everything we're going to do before we start doing it?

I understand we have a few Js on this board. So, Js, what do you have to say about this?

Proviso: I am not a J, but, the first few times I took the test I tested as a J. This was largely due to the unrelenting influence of my father (an ISFJ) who dominated my family of origin.

So, I'm not a J, and therefore my response is unsolicited ("So, Js, what do you have to say about this?")

But, my answer is: It depends.

If the J type who is being inflexible is the person who signs my check (as it were), and my wife and kids don't eat and become homeless if I don't just suck it up and live through the J's expectations, then I suck it up.

Fortunately, we INTPs are typically quite adaptable. If my boss requires a certain about of SJ planning and efficiency out of his employees, then I find a way to give it to him.

On the other hand, if the J in question is a friend and we're planning to do something together, I'll just stick up for my preferences a bit, and give in if it seems that the benefit of having it my way isn't worth the cost of having to fight about it.

On the third hand (), there are times when I won't give in to the J's stubborn insistence. There are times when just have to say "I'm sorry that you have expectations that I cannot meet. If you're not willing to compromise with me, then I cannot do _____ with you."

Dave

 

[Jesin]

Ehh, I didn't mean only Js should answer. I meant everybody, but especially Js.

 

[Wisp]

Eh. I agree with Tekton on a point. I live in a P family. Well, my sister's an FJ, and my Dad's unknown, but my mother does all the planning anyway, but regardless, the super-secret only known to the subconscious method of telling the P that the deadline is earlier than it actually is is smart. Do it. If they get it in on time, just smile and take it. If they get it to you after the "deadline" but before the deadline, rag 'em a little, but not too much. If it's after the deadline, give 'em hell (unless they're me).