No actually this isn't possible at all, how could it be? If an 'INFJ' was better at Ti than an INTP, then either the INFJ wasn't an INFJ or the INTP wasn't an INTP, or both. You just said the equivalent of "It's possible for a cat to be a better racer than a horse, because if the cat can run 25% faster than a horse then it's better". Before somebody mentions it there are corner cases. An undeveloped INTP - a seriously, pathologically undeveloped might have little Ti. But even that is rare as the dominant function (Ti in this case) develops first in a persons life, in childhood.
Even when life or situation doesn't give too many opportunities for using your dominant, a person will find ways. Go watch videos of NFGeeks/Dr Mike interviewing Tom on YouTube. He works as a carpenter and handyman it seems, and you can see the creative ways he has come up with to engage Ti/Ne. This even though his job didn't offer him a lot of opportunity to express these skills.
Others, like me who get to use Ti/Ne daily come off as quite conventional. Simply because my main needs are getting satisfied.
good luck using 99 Ni together with 61 Se. It's possible in the limited area of imagination, but not in real life. Like i explained in another thread about INTP and Fe. Inferior functions can be powerful in thought and hypothetical expression, where type is like a state of mind, but they contradict in life designing actions, where you have to pull on one chord to get anywhere at all, where type becomes a coherent personality and character. You could at most have 50 Ni + 50 Se.
i think what you are trying to get at is that INFJ could be smarter than INTP, but this can't be expressed in the percentage ratios of functions of this individual.
No actually this isn't possible at all, how could it be? If an 'INFJ' was better at Ti than an INTP, then either the INFJ wasn't an INFJ or the INTP wasn't an INTP, or both. You just said the equivalent of "It's possible for a cat to be a better racer than a horse, because if the cat can run 25% faster than a horse then it's better". Before somebody mentions it there are corner cases. An undeveloped INTP - a seriously, pathologically undeveloped might have little Ti. But even that is rare as the dominant function (Ti in this case) develops first in a persons life, in childhood.
i think what you are trying to get at is that INFJ could be smarter than INTP, but this can't be expressed in the percentage ratios of functions of this individual.
You just said the equivalent of "It's possible for a cat to be a better racer than a horse, because if the cat can run 25% faster than a horse then it's better".
What's wrong with that statement lol? If being a better racer means you can run faster, and a cat can run faster than a horse, then the cat is a better racer than the horse lol.
That's illogical thinking, no offense but you need to study MBTI more, as what you say is not possible in MBTI. Which is fine - you have some alternate theory, go ahead and work it. In MBTI the shadow functions or shadow stack (the bottom two function) are unconscious and undifferentiated, and just by saying "people are different" doesn't mean that a person can develop something that is unconscious, and wants to stay unconscious. It would take too much psychic energy to do that.
So there's no way - except in pathological corner cases - a person can develop an unconscious function more than another who has it as their dominant. Though it's easy to fool ourselves into thinking this is possible.
Take Fe for example. Long story about my history I've blathered on about here, but I spent much of my youth "developing" it as a classical musician. I had conductors pound me into being less technical and more expressive as a musician. When I met my INFJ wife I thought I was quite sophisticated and developed emotionally. Now after many years I'm really getting a handle on myself and her (a Fe auxiliary) and have found that I was profoundly wrong. I was fooling myself. Having emotions, and a well developed musical taste is not the same as developing Fe. My inferior is just as babyish and undeveloped as it was when I was younger.
What's wrong with that statement lol? If being a better racer means you can run faster, and a cat can run faster than a horse, then the cat is a better racer than the horse lol.
So there's no way - except in pathological corner cases - a person can develop an unconscious function more than another who has it as their dominant. Though it's easy to fool ourselves into thinking this is possible.
Of course they can. It's possible for MBTI type to change. If MBTI theory says that MBTI type cannot change, then MBTI theory is incorrect.
It's like saying that if you have strong biceps but weak hamstrings, you will always have strong biceps and weak hamstrings and you can't work out and change it lol.
The weaker functions are only unconscious because they lack neural connections to the prefrontal cortex, if you practice your weaker functions, they will become conscious.
The same way that someone who doesn't use their body much will have little conscious control over their muscles, but when they start to practice, they develop more conscious control over their muscles.
No actually this isn't possible at all, how could it be? If an 'INFJ' was better at Ti than an INTP, then either the INFJ wasn't an INFJ or the INTP wasn't an INTP, or both. You just said the equivalent of "It's possible for a cat to be a better racer than a horse, because if the cat can run 25% faster than a horse then it's better". Before somebody mentions it there are corner cases. An undeveloped INTP - a seriously, pathologically undeveloped might have little Ti. But even that is rare as the dominant function (Ti in this case) develops first in a persons life, in childhood.
If the INTP really sucked at everything, s/he could have less honed Ti than a mature INFJ whose Ti might not be their strongest function but still had a more practiced sense of Ti than the immature/young INTP.
But really, INFJs use Ti as a tert. That's the difference. So it's still directed and molded by the prim and aux. So there's typically a difference in application.
>MBTI type is about the functions of a person relative to other functions of that person.
exactly, and this is why Ti can't be 80 if Ni is already 99 lol.
obviously you calculate differently, your percentages are not percentages of the whole psyche but percentages of a duality which you have not specified.
you appear to think that Ti is the opposite of Te so when you say 80 Ti you imply 20 Te and when you say 99 Ni you imply 1 Ne.
however both Ti and Te together make up maybe 20 or 30 percent of this infj's whole psyche.
and in the intp, who has 54 Ti and 46 Te, the totality of T in the whole psyche would be more like maybe 40 percent.
so the intp would still be more of a thinking type than the infj.
and percentages don't translate into skill. because skill is relative to other people and the percentages are not.
now if you had some sort of intelligence test wherein every function is tested as a line of intelligence, wherein one can attain 100 points for each line then and only then could you imagine an individual who gets 99 points for Ni and 60 points for Se and another individual who gets 50 points for Ti.
but such tests have not been invented yet. it's always dichotomies or dualities of attitudes. you choose E over I or your choose F over T and so on.
>>>it's possible for an INFJ to be more skilled in Ti than an INTP
>>i think what you are trying to get at is that INFJ could be smarter than INTP
>Nope.
No actually this isn't possible at all, how could it be? If an 'INFJ' was better at Ti than an INTP, then either the INFJ wasn't an INFJ or the INTP wasn't an INTP, or both. You just said the equivalent of "It's possible for a cat to be a better racer than a horse, because if the cat can run 25% faster than a horse then it's better". Before somebody mentions it there are corner cases. An undeveloped INTP - a seriously, pathologically undeveloped might have little Ti. But even that is rare as the dominant function (Ti in this case) develops first in a persons life, in childhood.
Even when life or situation doesn't give too many opportunities for using your dominant, a person will find ways. Go watch videos of NFGeeks/Dr Mike interviewing Tom on YouTube. He works as a carpenter and handyman it seems, and you can see the creative ways he has come up with to engage Ti/Ne. This even though his job didn't offer him a lot of opportunity to express these skills.
Others, like me who get to use Ti/Ne daily come off as quite conventional. Simply because my main needs are getting satisfied.
Well said...as an INFJ in the grips of Ti, the experience is disorienting. For myself, I will pace back and forth if I am really pressed for an immediate solution to a crisis. However, even when a solution is not needed immediately, I just feel like I am in quicksand where time is concerned...it just slips away...like being in a time machine...that is the best way I can describe it. I start losing track of things and forgetting if I have done something that was important...I start re-checking things and repeatedly boiling the water out of pots. It's almost a helpless feeling when at its worst (Ni-Ti loop). It can really be debilitating and I cannot imagine having it as a dominant function...although I would not mind.
Ti is one of the reasons I try not to get into theoretical discussions online during the work week. Sometimes it might take 2-3 hours to get what I want to say EXACTLY how I want to say it. I don't mind being in its grip if I am at home under comfortable conditions...which usually means when I'm on my week off. You can think yourself into oblivion with seven days off to do nothing but ponder...when working, forget it!
As far as getting better at it than a dominant Ti user? Not going to happen. I study the dictionary and have played upwards of 6 hour chess matches with computer engines, including tournament level otb competition for years, but my Ti strength is still not a natural thing. It does not feel effortless and I don't anticipate it ever feeling effortless, which is how I would describe the ability of a dominant function. It would go about its business like breathing...Ti leaves me gasping at times.
If the INTP really sucked at everything, s/he could have less honed Ti than a mature INFJ whose Ti might not be their strongest function but still had a more practiced sense of Ti than the immature/young INTP.
I understand what you mean but I've come to doubt this actually happens. This came from observations so is possibly faulty, but I keep seeing in myself and others that while a good appearance of a function development can occur, in reality there is little actual development.
Back to the Fe example. I can hobnob with the best. I can easily express concern, inquire as to the small quotidian of friends and family, small talk and so forth. But in comparison to my Fe auxiliary wife I've come to find how it's not real. Fe is a judging function which is obvious in an auxiliary, but mine is much, much weaker than that. It hardly judges at all. Could I develop that like an INFJ? I could develop the behaviors, but not the psyche that is behind it.
It's the difference between form and substance, or persona and psyche. And even when the persona is developed, it still never seems to hold a candle to the person who has developed both the form and substance/persona and psyche. They have both the behaviors and the psychic force behind it.
The scientific explanation (if that's preferred) is that you can change the traits, but without the hidden variables it's still not as strong as one who has the traits and the hidden variables.
Now, having said that, this doesn't mean that on (rare) occasions an INFJ can't get in a zinger. Flashes of brilliant Ti insight. My INFJ wife has done this with me. I logically thought something out entirely wrong, and she had the right answer. Has happened a handful of times over 20 years, and she relishes bringing them up. Of course I'm right a handful of times per day otherwise.
Yes, completely agree, my INTP son at a young age ran circles around her in this regards. And she's "quite developed" in a sense from being with me. We talk all the time about my stuff - technology, science and stuff (I used to be a Physicist and she remembers quite a bit from those days too). But she can't possibly out Ti a Ti dominant, and vice-versa.
unconscious functions can become smarter and also more conscious as a result. consciousness is something that happens in the exchange between the functions any way, it's in the relationship. each player can become more integrated with the rest of the team.
but that doesn't change the type. because type is neither about what is conscious nor about what is smart. it's about the priorities in the unfolding composition of a character. i have explained this before, remember, that analogy about functions being like team players who have a common task which is partially dictated by a leader, unlike the methodology used for the task, which is democratic cooperation. try to expand your theory of mind to understand what types or characters are. we are not just machines with various parts that are capable of this or that, we do something with our life and this is what typology is really about. songs not instruments. or rather genres of songs. and this typology was intended as a psychoanalytic tool, not as an intelligence test.
Fe is a judging function which is obvious in an auxiliary, but mine is much, much weaker than that. It hardly judges at all. Could I develop that like an INFJ? I could develop the behaviors, but not the psyche that is behind it. [/SPOILER]
Having been raised in an SJ family, I can emulate dead-serious formality almost anytime, work/study 60 hours per week, and adhere to rather strict schedules both short- and long-term, but I can recognize that it's behaviour only, without the thought processes that would most naturally lead to it. I've seen similar things with an ISFP with Te, an ENTJ with Se, and an INTJ with Se.
Having been raised in an SJ family, I can emulate dead-serious formality almost anytime, work/study 60 hours per week, and adhere to rather strict schedules both short- and long-term, but I can recognize that it's behaviour only, without the thought processes that would most naturally lead to it. .
Yes! Raised in a S family here too (ESTJ, ESFP, ESTJ, ISFP, ISTP, INTP). I've got the behaviors but it's not me in any way. More importantly, my behaviors aren't even nearly as good as the 'naturals'. S types seem to be good at spotting this out, they can tell if you're not 'one of them'.
It's all faking, and we fake ourselves worst of all. INTP's who think the've got developed Fe, I contend, have learned a set of social skills. This is different from having emotions, which can be as strong as any other type.
Yes. And I've seen it. An INFJ guy who is very smart and logical, very good in debates, much better than many INTPs. Intelligence amplifies the functions and an intelligent INFJ will use Ti more adeptly than a stupid INTP. A good example of this is any genius INFJ, like Niels Bohr. You can't tell me his Ti wasn't better developed than most INTPs'?
But even w/o considering the exceptional examples, this phenomenon can happen particularly with male INFJs since society pushes them to think more than feel. So with these guys, Ti can often be quite well developed compared to other types' tertiary functions. For this reason, also, Fe in INTPs may be even more retarded than the inferior functions of other types.
I understand what you mean but I've come to doubt this actually happens. This came from observations so is possibly faulty, but I keep seeing in myself and others that while a good appearance of a function development can occur, in reality there is little actual development.
We're talking in SUCH generalities right now ("little actual development" for example -- uh, wth does THAT mean, quantitatively? it's a rather empty dismissal) that I'm having trouble crediting this conversation with much. Experiences can differ, and our currently held views also determine our perceptions of experience.
My experience with INFJs using a decent tertiary Ti is that it's still in service to the Fe/Ni. Thus, I find it's not as flexible as the way I use it; they come across as more detailed than me in how they structure their thought process (more willing to nail in a LOT of specific details) but less flexible in regards to new information. If I had to assess it, it's like they are describing in very rational terms a picture they already hold in their mind, rather than using Ti as a series of steps (or rungs on a ladder) to move towards some unknown conclusion.
What I find with my thought process is that sometimes I might get intutions of the overall big picture, but I'm still mainly walking through a cause/effect chain and don't know exactly where I'll end up... but I'm also willing to go there regardless of how I feel about it personally. This is what I mean by prim Ti being more "flexible" -- if it's fair and balanced, it's not committed to an outcome, it's more focused on the process than the result.
But out of all the types, I find I have the most "rational" conversations with INTPs and INFJs with great tert Ti. They're really interesting to talk to... and it's useful to me since they bring a values sense to what is otherwise a rational discussion. *shrug*
Of course, in the end, we're discussing the ramifications of a theory that's already being assumed to be accurate conceptually. Which means in practical interaction I'm not sure how useful it is; I'm not going to discount an INFJ's argument without hearing it first, just because they're not a Ti prime. There's nowhere to plant my feet in this argument, as the ground for both of us is mushy to begin with.
Back to the Fe example. I can hobnob with the best. I can easily express concern, inquire as to the small quotidian of friends and family, small talk and so forth. But in comparison to my Fe auxiliary wife I've come to find how it's not real. Fe is a judging function which is obvious in an auxiliary, but mine is much, much weaker than that. It hardly judges at all. Could I develop that like an INFJ? I could develop the behaviors, but not the psyche that is behind it.
Well, it's not even the same since Fe is INTP inf, and I was talking about tert Ti. If you want to compare those to this degree, we should be discussing ESFJs. And then of course we can discuss how "different" Ti/Te actually are, or how different Te/Fe actually is (and so on), since in some ways a lot of these supposedly opposite function pairs actually operate similarly and can somewhat emulate each other. (For example, ISFJs who are theoretically SiFe can methodically and easily do a lot of work credited to Te; their skills are not merely related to rules surrounding people.)
Ti of INFJ is taking off, when they start to live their life with much goal orientation and outside of conventional Fe paths. When they begin to invent their own career as a nutritional guru instead of being a kindergarden teacher or similar. They will preach about how to do it, how to take off from the conventional world and create your own reality and infect and invite other people into it, and while they are preaching they are really reinforcing their own plans, like they are talking to themselves, but it's potentially inspirational for everyone who listens. They are in part teaching Fe, they are highly motivational and idealistic ("you would totally elevate the whole world by embodying these super good values") but it's their own Ti invention of it all.
The intelligence has a different context compared to that of intp, therefore it can never compete in the same discipline, no matter how smart it is. smart INFJ would rather resemble smart ISTP.
We're talking in SUCH generalities right now ("little actual development" for example -- uh, wth does THAT mean, quantitatively? it's a rather empty dismissal) that I'm having trouble crediting this conversation with much.
Well, what do you expect? I don't know any way these particular ideas can be easily quantified. "How much is INFJ Ti external behavior versus qualia?" And it wasn't meant as a dismissal by the way.
Experiences can differ, and our currently held views also determine our perceptions of experience.
Where did I say it's not in service to the other functions, or that it (implied) doesn't have value? Besides which you're hardly quantitive here either so you really shouldn't throw rocks on that point
Let me cut to the chase and see if the point can be clear - agree or disagree as you will. Take OP's point, said differently - any function in the teritary can be stronger than the same function in the dominant of another type. I say no - that is in the vast majority of people not possible. The reason is that there isn't enough psychic energy (interest, motivation, desire) for that to occur.
Extending the point I'm saying that developing a teritary or inferior is at best a weak development. Mostly it's developing behaviors - like actors. Would you say a film actor playing the part of a baseball star is a baseball star? If they're method acting they might feel the part and believe it, but they can't really be a baseball player. That doesn't mean they can't come off as one and enjoy it either, or that the experience doesn't otherwise enrich their lives.
EDIT: In retrospect I guess I don't know what point you're making.
But out of all the types, I find I have the most "rational" conversations with INTPs and INFJs with great tert Ti. They're really interesting to talk to... and it's useful to me since they bring a values sense to what is otherwise a rational discussion.
Yes me too - it's well known INFJ's and INTP's work well together, and INFJ's can follow along with the theorizing of INTP's. How else could it be? They certainly have that side of themselves.
I'm not going to discount an INFJ's argument without hearing it first, just because they're not a Ti prime.
obviously you calculate differently, your percentages are not percentages of the whole psyche but percentages of a duality which you have not specified.
I study the dictionary and have played upwards of 6 hour chess matches with computer engines, including tournament level otb competition for years, but my Ti strength is still not a natural thing. It does not feel effortless and I don't anticipate it ever feeling effortless, which is how I would describe the ability of a dominant function. It would go about its business like breathing...Ti leaves me gasping at times.
Yeah you just have to practice Ti more to make it effortless. That's what practice does. It makes things easier. That's what being skilled in something feels like, it feels really easy relative to other people.
I've always been better at understanding than I have at sports, but when I was about 18 I practiced my hockey every single day, and I felt myself becoming more coordinated, I had more conscious control over my muscles. I ended up playing A grade for a year, which is the highest skill level you can play here locally. Before I practiced I could not have played at A grade level, I struggled to keep up in B grade.
Yes I realise that muscle coordination isn't related to MBTI, it's an analogy. I built neural connections from my muscles to my brain, which gave me more conscious control of my muscles.
but that doesn't change the type. because type is neither about what is conscious nor about what is smart. it's about the priorities in the unfolding composition of a character.
unconscious functions can become smarter and also more conscious as a result. consciousness is something that happens in the exchange between the functions any way, it's in the relationship. each player can become more integrated with the rest of the team.
So you agree that you can develop your weaker functions? What about if you develop your weaker functions so much that they become stronger than your strongest functions?
So you agree that you can develop your weaker functions? What about if you develop your weaker functions so much that they become stronger than your strongest functions?
i agree that a team player can be integrated into the team, if the team leader decides to allow it. that team player can become more appreciated and attain more freedom. if the teamleader doesn't allow it, but that player intrudes anyway, it's not integration and growth but psychosis. the team leader needs to become most capable, to make integrative decisions. poorly developed leaders feel that the other players, especially the tertiary or inferior players are more threatening to the mission than they could be helpful. and the leaders aren't even wrong, because poorly developed players actually don't know how to help the mission. they are often programmed by other teams.
there is simply the fact that the dominant function does not stop developing, therefore it will always stay ahead of other functions. it's involuntarily used the most and develops the most. until the whole individual stops developing due to dementia. then we can wonder which function breaks down most rapidly.
i agree that a team player can be integrated into the team, if the team leader decides to allow it. that team player can become more appreciated and attain more freedom. if the teamleader doesn't allow it, but that player intrudes anyway, it's not integration and growth but psychosis. the team leader needs to become most capable, to make integrative decisions. poorly developed leaders feel that the other players, especially the tertiary or inferior players are more threatening to the mission than they could be helpful. and the leaders aren't even wrong, because poorly developed players actually don't know how to help the mission. they are often programmed by other teams.
there is simply the fact that the dominant function does not stop developing, therefore it will always stay ahead of other functions. it's involuntarily used the most and develops the most. until the whole individual stops developing due to dementia. then we can wonder which function breaks down most rapidly.
i just called it psychosis. although that's a radical way of putting it. it is usually just a neurosis. the team leader does not understand the players request until he has the integrative capacity to integrate him. so he won't allow the player to express himself and he will deny his intentions. for instance the team leader wants go and talk to girls in a manly fashion but the inferior player wants to be someone who would make mother proud and mother doesn't like manly men. the inferior player can only appear as anxiety of unknown origin, to the team leader. he can make the team leader incapable of approaching the girl. because the team leader is not willing to listen to the message of the inferior player, no negotiation is possible and the legs aren't moving towards the girl and the head appears empty in conversation with her, if it comes to that. only when the inferior player is integrated, it's agenda will by synchronized with the mission of the team. it's new agenda will become to become a manly man who would make his lover proud. now the team leader will accept it into the team and the person is whole again. the alternative scenario is that the inferior player has no comment on how to approach the girl. so then the leader can approach in a manner that will make no one proud. in this example i assume that the inferior function has the job of taking care of the social image of the persona. and the leader has the job of taking care of the needs of the individual.
Yeah but you can consciously choose not to develop your dominant, and choose to develop your weaker functions instead.
the team player can avoid certain challenges in life (often this intimidation is the result of threads that come from other players), which will stop the development in this exact area of his competence, but it won't stop his overall growth. growth is an organic process, it's like doing homework. you can't stop it any more than you could stop puberty. your ego experience is just a product of the functions, it's a show, it's not the god of the biology of your bio-computer. nobody is in control.
The point of this thread is that people are not equal, just because someone is better at abstract thinking than they are at riding a motorcycle, does not necessarily mean that they are better at abstract thinking than another person.
It's possible for a person to be more skilled at their weaknesses than another person is skilled at their strengths.
The sum of one person's skills is not necessarily equal to the sum of another's.
Of course. It's about intelligence. It's hard to find one of the 2% of the smartest people of the world but their tertiary might have more hypothetical capacity than the dominant of average people.
Let's look at real world example. My inferior is apparently Te. can i find ESTJ or ENTJ who navigate life in a manner, that is more unflexible and less well adapted by Te standards, than i do it? Difficult question, but i think it is unlikely. That person would have to be a real moron.
Can i develop my Te so it becomes as well adapted to the present moment realities as that of an average ENTJ? Or say an ENTJ who is integral, like i am? So that i can gain the respect of a Te dominant user who participates in my values sphere?
Well that is the wet dream of all self help geeks. But i say it's never going to happen, because i see how complicated it's to achieve. That smart Te adaption to the present moment isn't just energetic presence, it's not just surrendering to the task, it's applying a life time of experience with similar situations. I don't have that.
So yeah, your tertiary or inferior can be smarter than some moron's dominant function, if you have better genes and you have grown that way, but you can't develop at will to make your weak parts as strong as the strong parts of a person with equal genetic quality.
Sorry if i am being too repetitive about my arguments.
Of course. It's about intelligence. It's hard to find one of the 2% of the smartest people of the world but their tertiary might have more hypothetical capacity than the dominant of average people.
Well that is the wet dream of all self help geeks. But i say it's never going to happen, because i see how complicated it's to achieve. That smart Te adaption to the present moment isn't just energetic presence, it's not just surrendering to the task, it's applying a life time of experience with similar situations. I don't have that.
Exactly. That's my point. People do not have equal genetic quality, and for this reason it is possible for one person's weaknesses to be more developed than another person's strengths.
I think thinking itself is neurlogical experience of thinking, experience of the brain inside of the thinking area, it's knowing how to do all the little twists of thinking that can come in handy in a situation, like a skater knows how to skate from within sensation, it's all automatic. Think about people who are quick witted and original, never at a loss for words.
I think thinking itself is neurlogical experience of thinking, experience of the brain inside of the thinking area, it's knowing how to do all the little twists of thinking that can come in handy in a situation, like a skater knows how to skate from within sensation, it's all automatic. Think about people who are quick witted and original, never at a loss for words.
A key issue here is the difference between capability and manifestation. It is unlikely that an INFJ would ever have more Ti capability than an INTP.
But an INFJ could quite easily have greater Ti manifestation than an INTP by actually producing something with it (e.g. a new invention, a piece of intelligent art, a new theory or system that people find useful), whereas the INTP might spend their whole life bathing in Ti but never really manifest anything.
For example, I have an INFJ friend. If you explained the concept of Ti to our mutual friends, I would guess that at least a few of them would say that she has more Ti than me, simply because that is what the external evidence suggests.
For example, I have an INFJ friend. If you explained the concept of Ti to our mutual friends, I would guess that at least a few of them would say that she has more Ti than me, simply because that is what the external evidence suggests.
Yeah, that's probably typical, it would be like how people see so much Fi in enfp that they mistake them for INFP, but in me they can't spot it and think i don't even have it. Introverted dominant functions are more introverted, more removed from the present moment, than auxiliary or tertiary functions. It's very limiting if you allow particular impressions of your dominant function to become a part of your persona, unless you have no problem with breaking with your persona two times per day. But if you share something with others, it becomes part of your persona. Technically, everything that you share is limiting in that sense, but you are most acutely aware of it, in the case of the dominant function. I know the deeper and more complicated a feeling is, the less i am going to let anyone know about it. And by feeling i mean ethical conclusions about aspects of how we life, the kind of shit that extroverted people or people with extroverted feeling blog about all of the time, like what is good and what is evil in the fashion school of popularity. The ethical conclusions that i am willing to share with others are just the tip of the iceberg that is moving me. People are often wondering about my positions, because i don't clarify them but they feel that something is going on. They are like "what are you really saying, though". But all i am willing to share is some hints, some suggestions. I may want to inspire you to open your mind about a different way of judging a situation, but i don't want to let you have a peek into how i am doing it. Ti dominant types are often the same in discussions, but in a different context, a thinking context. They throw tidbits of comments into discussion threads and you have to wonder what are they up to, what do they want, where do they stand, what are they suggesting, why are they asking, do they even know, are they just trolling or lazy?
Yeah sure they can. I mean INFJs can never have the same kind of Ti as an INTP but they can definitely have one that's more effective if the INTP sucks and the INFJ is pro.
If the INFJ has his/her whole functional stack well-developed and has a higher base IQ than the INTP in regards to things such as working memory and crystallized and fluid intelligence, processing speed etc, and is academically experienced while the INTP is an immature piece of shit who's pretty dumb for his type and has never been to college then said INTP will suck at using Ti compared to said INFJ.
Just as K9B4 could be better at Se stuff than Se peeps so can an INFJ be better at an INTP stuff. If by training, or inherent capabitilies or whatever. If there's too big a gap the INFJ will dance around the INTPs Ti with their own one. I think the reason Architect and others disagree is because they consider the tertiary Ti on it's own and compare it to the INTPs Ti on it's own rather than looking at both as they are reinforced by the rest of the function stacks, functions do work together. So it's meaningless to base proficiency off of a scenario wherein just one is at play. The INFJs tertiary Ti can be quite powerful if supplemented by Ni+Fe.
Are you expecting the INFJ to use Ti the same way as the INTP because you assume that Ti+Ne+Si+Fe is the real Ti? Because there are several different ways in which Ti can be manifested and no reason to say one type is the Ti.
Yeah sure they can. I mean INFJs can never have the same kind of Ti as an INTP but they can definitely have one that's more effective if the INTP sucks and the INFJ is pro.
I'm way proer than you you little shit, I'm just not sure that counts as pro, but hey at least it doesn't count as demented lobotomized zombie goldfish who thinks that energy isn't real because he can't touch it like he does his own penis while imagining his mother and three black men
If the INFJ has his/her whole functional stack well-developed and has a higher base IQ than the INTP in regards to things such as working memory and crystallized and fluid intelligence, processing speed etc, and is academically experienced while the INTP is an immature piece of shit who's pretty dumb for his type and has never been to college then said INTP will suck at using Ti compared to said INFJ.
But that's an extreme example, as I said you could construct some scenarios where it's possible, but how likely are they and how often do you come across them? Extreme examples don't prove a point. Furthermore Ti (or any function) is more than the academic oriented example you gave.
Here's a real life example. NFGeeks interviewed "Tom", listed as an INTP. Check this out.
We don't know his history but it seems likely that he didn't get a college education. He's working a variety of off jobs, says his main income is from repairing things, and a carpenter and such. At first I thought "he's not an INTP" but fifteen minutes later said "he's an INTP". You can see the Ti/Ne clearly working. It's not working on intellectual topics (that we know of), but in absence of that kind of life the guy uses it in other ways. He says that he "imagines trolls and fairies coming out of the ground" or something like that when he does some menial task. Likewise people go to him for the difficult jobs because he likes solving problems. He constructs theories (that are wrong) about ordinary life ("it's all quantum and chaotic"). Note around 7:00 where he analyzes everything all of the time. This is Ti - an INFJ could not do this no matter how much education they got. They would psychically drain first. This leads to the key point ...
Academic types of intelligence do not equate to Ti. Ti is a process or motivation for interacting with the world
I'll repeat it, Ti is a process, a motivation that can manifest in many ways. Taking Tom, do you see any INFJ being as much him as he is?
PS, just put "k9b4" on your ignore list like I did. If he's an ENFP they just like to tweak people. This one is particularly stupid or really young.
k9b4 aren't you that guy on PeC who was always protective about SJs? and hating about how biased all MBTI theory was? i can't recall the username but they were funny debates.
But that's an extreme example, as I said you could construct some scenarios where it's possible, but how likely are they and how often do you come across them? Extreme examples don't prove a point. Furthermore Ti (or any function) is more than the academic oriented example you gave.
k9b4 aren't you that guy on PeC who was always protective about SJs? and hating about how biased all MBTI theory was? i can't recall the username but they were funny debates.
No, but experience with academics helps bolster Ti.
No I don't see any INFJ as much him as he is cause he not an INFJ.
You're doing exactly what I said you were doing in my last post, ie presupposing that we are arguing whether an INFJ can use Ti like an INTP or not, which no INFJ can. What were arguing is not that though, but whether an INFJ can use Ti to greater effect, ie be better in his/hers INFJ-way of using Ti than an INTP's INTP way. Which is fully possible.
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