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Is trying drugs worth it

Oprale

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I've always been curious about this. I made a new friend who smokes weed almost everyday and I wonder if I should ask him where he buys his.

Now I read that some of you tried a couple of things, so I'm asking if it's worth paying for and if the danger of a psychosis is really high, considering I have hallucinations sometimes but no declared illness related to it. I admit it's killing me not to know at first person what it does to the mind. So it would be nice if you could also talk of your experiences about it.

Sorry if it's seen as a dumb topic a 12yo yoloswag kid would do, I guess it's just my mood right now. Please don't throw rocks at me :storks:
 

Yellow

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Drugs are tricky because of the addictive factor. Obviously, some drugs play havoc with your brain chemisty and become physically addictive realy quickly, but the addiction I refer to is the euphoria. If you are not equipped with a good set of healthy coping/life skills, or if you have a genuine mood disorder, it's too easy to just drink/smoke/snort/shoot yourself into oblivion. Imagine just being able to turn yourself off and escape the pain of being you. Once this kind of chemical dependence sets in, you'll never be right again.

Oh the other hand, drugs are really, really fun. The key is to use them only occasionally, for purely recreational purposes. Never, ever let yourself depend on them to have [more] fun or relax. I would argue that those are both huge, glow-in-the-dark warning signs that you are going down an unhealthy path.
 

Brontosaurie

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What do you mean by hallucinations?

Anyway here goes my bucks:

Cannabis is very mild in terms of hazard and clinical addiction. As far as i know (lazy haphazard but not biased reading from various sources) it doesn't trigger psychosis acutely. Chronic use is a risk factor though. Cannabis is fun and cozy and enhances creative thinking (with emphasis on thinking as opposed to actualization), especially the first few times. You may find new perspectives on yourself and your thought patterns, which may or may not prove applicable in sobriety. It's very easy to over-indulge and enter a spiral of passivity and sluggishness if your life is devoid of purpose and it gets expensive if you do this, but it doesn't really hook you and if you lead a fulfilling life chronic or frequent use won't be very inviting to most i think. The main problem is paranoia. Be with trustworthy friends if you try it. The same goes for the two following classes.

Psychedelics give a mindblowing experience. I'd like to make some mystic statement that everyone should try some but that's unwise. Nevertheless i estimate about 85 % of the population would benefit from them. They're really fascinating substances with immense potential and worth researching even if you don't try yourself. Miles of text could be written, but suffice to say they kind of force you to recalibrate self-awareness and confront your innocent core. This may be a joyful silly child-sage experience or a total emotional trainwreck beyond sober imagination. It's always a life-affirmative lesson either way. Something that bothers me slightly but also tickles my curiosity is the observation that psychedelics from my experience seem to synergize very well with adolescence. The standard cautious advice is to wait until 20-25, which is sound but probably ignorant. I'm pulling this out of somewhere not quite my arse but close enough. It's true though. If you decide to try a psychedelic, i recommend going for a classic (i.e. well researched) one and starting low on dosage.

Dissociatives are dangerously fucking blissful and nihilistic - producing total madness but also total satisfaction. Much more hedonistic than psychedelics, but also more twisted and dark. Basically you emulate the phenomenology of death yet there's no trace of fear or discomfort. I don't think you can feel better than this, but it's chiefly transient. It doesn't reset or teach you anything like psychedelics do. The lesson you could take is to observe your reaction to something not unlike the metaphorical satanic temptation under controlled (yet of course maniacal) circumstances. If i were to recommend one of these substances it would be N2O, also known as nitrous oxide or laughing gas. It's very brief in base duration and also relatively safe, provided the method of administration is correct. Be aware that dissociatives have a large addiction potential and a prominent hook while also being the most mind-altering drugs. Dissociative addiction is likely the most miserable and debilitating kind.

Uppers and downers... Well, it's life experience but not particularly insightful unlike the other classes mentioned above. I can't say anything about opioids/opiates though.

Yellow's rule of thumb is an important one, but it can't be trusted as an insurance. If addiction happens to you, it will find ways to surmount such rational concerns. It's a beast of its own. Tread with caution. Dark lord vortex etc.
 

Oprale

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Imagine just being able to turn yourself off and escape the pain of being you.

I know that pain. Although I've been curious about drugs for years, I might really want to try them now partly for that reason... I just tried to keep that though away from my mind. Although I feel a bit better than I used to, I guess I should wait some more.

What do you mean by hallucinations?

Hearing random sounds from time to time, random voices saying random names, things like that. Once I heard my brother saying a thing he never said. It doesn't happen very often, maybe once or twice a month. Visual hallucinations happened before but they were very rare and I haven't seen anything in a year or so. Last and freakiest thing I saw was a demon, spirit or something like that standing behind my brother and leaning over his shoulder. Before that it was always really mild stuff like random balls of lights I saw for 2-3 seconds or so. And I think I dissociated once, after a stressful event. Everything was normal and yet nothing seemed to be, as if reality was broken. Weird feeling. So I think I'm definitely weirder than the average.

Psychedelics and dissociatives looks like very interesting experiences but it scares me at the same time, because of what I said above.

The more I write, the more I can see I might be better staying away from drugs for now... It's frustrating
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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I've always been curious about this.
. . .
I'm asking if it's worth paying for and if the danger of a psychosis is really high
. . .
I admit it's killing me not to know at first person what it does to the mind.

Worth paying for? Sure, maybe. I pay for it sometimes so I guess I'd say it is, but not everyone thinks that and it's totally their right to do so. I'd say you need the experience to decide that for yourself.

Danger of psychosis? In my experience, no, it's not dangerous in that regard. But my experience is limited to myself and my relatively mentally stable/functional friends and drugs which are no harder than your average psychedelic. I can't say for certain how it'll affect you.


That curiosity is something I totally understand. It's the main reason I got drunk the first time. It's the main reason I smoked weed the first time. It's the reason I tried shrooms the first time. By the time I started using mind-altering substances I'd heard plenty about their existence from all kinds of sources and I couldn't imagine what it could possibly be like for something you eat/drink/inhale to make you see and feel things that you would otherwise be incapable of. I felt like I was missing out on worlds of information and stimulation.

That curiosity is a powerful thing, and if you feel it as strongly as it seems like you do, I would say that you should go for it.


Definitely listen to Yellow's advice. It's spot on.

Also if you choose to go beyond weed, I'd recommend that you not delve too deep too fast. I'd say you should try weed a few times before you do anything else. Get really fucking high at least once (in my experience and the experiences of everyone I've talked to about this, the third or fourth time you smoke will probably be "one of the highest times I've ever been") and see how it affects you. If that semi-trippy, overstimulating high energizes you then you can proceed (with caution. Always with caution). If getting too high is honestly too much for you -- and for some people it is -- then don't go beyond that. Knowing yourself and being comfortable with yourself and being able to control yourself are very helpful for you, both while on drugs and after they've worn off (I think I'm trying to say the same thing as Yellow's "a good set of healthy coping/life skills" bit but I'm just doing it with more words and less effectively).
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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Although I've been curious about drugs for years, I might really want to try them now partly for that reason... I just tried to keep that though away from my mind.

This can be a dangerous thought, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.

I had knee surgery a few years ago and I got hydrocodone for the pain and I realized fairly early on that I probably liked it too much. So when my knee was healed up and the pain was gone I made sure to set personal rules for myself regarding their use (no more than two tablets at a time, never take them two nights in a row, etc.) -- basic stuff designed to reduce the temptation to keep taking them when I know I probably shouldn't.

Taking drugs should be about the experience of taking them, imo. Not about escaping the experience of being sober. You don't want to confuse the two.


Edit: Apologies for the double post.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Not really.

Fun can be had indulging in something else.

It depends on a person doing drugs, but generally, drugs offer substitute solutions to difficult challenges that are more destructive and hollow in the long run.
 

Lot

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If you hallucinate sober I would say that it is not worth it. Last thing you want is to trigger a serious psychotic episode. I've seen drugs be the catalyst of many mental problems. Which it seems you have already started developing. I'm not sure the nature of your hallucinations, but imagine them 24/7. Imagine needing a dog around just so you can tell what's real. Or you might just develop an addiction to something. Something that takes away all your motivation and/or rational thought. It's easy to get hooked on something, because it makes you feel better, more normal even. Atleast how you think normal feel.

I've seen friends fall from very high places. One had a $65k a year job, with no college education, and he threw it away for heroin. He still is suffering from the left over effects of his addiction. All so he could deal with his anxiety. I watched another friend trigger his first manic episode. He thought that he had discovered the secrets to the bible. He was getting real time information from god. Eventually he got on med, but he's not doing better last I checked. The anti-psychotics they give him make him feel off, so he smokes synthetic cannabinoids. Which only makes him worse, until he has a period of clarity for a few months, then the depression sets in and he's back to trying to find his high point again.

But if that doesn't stop you.
Start out slow. Make sure to space out experiences. Any revelations that you find on your journey's need to be bounced off other people. Look for signs of mania following experiences.

So maybe start with pot. I find it to be a nice sampler platter of drugs. It can be a downer, upper, dissociative, and mild psychedelic. It's pretty harmless, but I have seen it trigger brief episodes in a few friends. It's not for everyone, but it's very forgiving and it won't kill you.

As far as moving on from there, it's up to you. I would suggest staying away from acid, unless you know for a fact it's lsd, or 1p-lsd. Even then, be careful. Mescaline cacti is pretty easy to handle. Someone could probably do this without having tried pot, first. It's really hard to have a bad trip on mescaline. MDMA is pretty fun, but I can't stand the hangover, which not everyone gets as bad. Just don't make a habit of it. It's neurotoxic, even more so than methamphetamine.

There is a big world of psychoactive chemicals. I could seriously just go on for hours talking about drugs, but I'll leave it here for now. Do your research and use moderation. Ideally you should wait till your brain is an adult brain, 22-25.

Not so fun experiences
I've calmed down my drug use. Nutmeg, LSA, and antihistamines (not together), have showed me the less fun side of drugs. Legal drugs are usually legal for a reason. Nutmeg, you're trapped in it for the next 24 hours, and as far as I know, there isn't any treatment to bring you out. Thats at least 12 hours of trying your damnedest to stay hydrated. I was lucky and didn't get a bad hangover, but if you don't hydrate that is a 3-5 day hangover. I started seeing black floaters during and after. They are finally starting to go away.

LSA gave me profound vertigo on the come down. I felt like my body was flying 60 mph, spinning, and twisting, when I closed my eyes. I at least enjoyed to come up. I smoked pot, (which is the cure to the vertigo. I know that now) and I had a wank. At first I thought I didn't orgasm when I finished. Then an intense orgasm built up over the next five mins after finishing. That ended up kicking in the peak of the trip. I had a lot of panic attacks the next month. My second trip was way better, but I still got vertigo on the come down. It was the end of my month of panic attack, though.

Benadryl was hell. I didn't even take to full 400-700 mg trip. I was listening to music, and I started to hallucinate another melody hiding in the music. It sounded sinister and I was convinced that is was summoning a demon. It had a very heavy body load like the other two drugs. I could not really walk around. I just felt tired, sick, and paranoid. So glad I didn't take enough to see the spiders. I had a really serious panic attack on another antihistamine. It felt like the description of a heart attack, just not painful. I can't even take a normal dose of benadryl anymore. It gives me an irregular heart beat now. I will say one good thing about it. 75mg of it made jacking off feel like the first time.

Fun/interesting experiencess
There seriously are a lot good times I've had. Lots of "spiritual" experiences. I am completely convinced that the idea of chi, or prana, came from ancient drug use. I remember laying in bed after getting really baked. After a brief time of trying to fall asleep, I started to notice something flowing through me. It was similar to what would happen when I did tai chi, but way more noticeable. Like every part of me was surging with the energy. On a few occasions I've been able to focus the energy in one part and cause my muscle to contract and massage themselves. That only happened when I first started smoking.

I once gave my torso an orgasm when super stoned. Didn't even have to touch my penis. I went into a trance and started massaging my body. Next thing I knew I collapsed on my couch twitching and moaning in ecstasy. (I really hope it wasn't some sort of seizure)

I've also gotten visions while high. I experimented with trance states a lot. One such time I have mixed a small amount of salvia divinorum with weed. I experienced the creation of the universe from the perspective of the christian god. I made a trinity of myself and all. then I was presented with a giant crystal tower. It had a crack i it and light was coming out of it. When the light shot out I heard the word, "He breathed the breath of life into them" and suddenly the crack in the tower was names jesus and the beams of tight shot out and connected to single points that spread out into even more beams of light to more points until I landed on point. I was told that it was me. I was a single piece of something bigger that was made up of things like me, and that bigger then was a piece of something bigger, ads so on until I reached back to the crystal tower. Then I was transported back to the universe that I had left to my alter egos. They had constructed stars and plants for me. Then I think the Santana guitar solo end and I broke the trance. It was either him, or Jimmi Hendrix.

I've also met dancing rock gnomes in hyperspace. They like really liked Devo. I had a giant energy spider come out of a vortex in my wall. For some reason i wasn't scared. I figured what ever it was going to do it would be over soon so just roll with it. He tickle hugged me with his warm fuzzy pincers. I could actually feel it touching me. I think we're friends now. I actually felt it's presence another time when I was in my car smoking. It was on the roof of my house.

If you are wondering why I haven't mentioned any classic psychedelics in this section. That would be because I've had way more profound times with weed and/or salvia, than with anything else. It's easier for me to relax on them, because I know they won't last all day, and if things go south, it'll be over soon. When things start going south on a drug that last 12 hours, it's easy to let that add to your anxiety.

conclusion
You see what I'm saying about checking for signs of mental problems. For awhile I was certain these things were real. I've talked to spirit guides and one time the spirit of king Solomon. He gave me dating advice. Now I'm not really sure what was going on. Not sure if just drugs or off the deep end.

I had a 3 month period last year of using salvia divinorum several times a week. I honestly think this may have put me into some sort of "episode". I felt like my brain was being reprogrammed. I ended the episode when I rage quitting my job and throwing out the rest of my salvia. I only made things worse, because I did ecstasy with a former coworker the week after, and was convinced I was in love with her, and so I wrote her a love letter. I didn't feel right for two weeks after that shit.

I had daily panic attacks and I was a complete mess. I'm still dealing with issues from that period of time. What I miss the most from that time, especially with salvia, was the confidence I had.... and the conviction I felt in my heart. I wasn't uncertain about death, or this life, or my role in the universe. I knew I was a part of a greater whole. Hell, I was even comfortable with the thought of going crazy. Not so much these days.

Most of it was worth it. It made my otherwise boring life, exciting. It showed me how to be more mindful of my own thoughts. Weed introduced me to extroverted sensing. I didn't just neglect to stop and smell the flowers, I didn't even know the flowers existed. And music, even sober now, is just better. But I do regret smoking so much salvia, and that night with my coworker. All the not so fun drugs. That I thought would be different for me, because "I'm special. I can handle this." I'm just lucky it's not worse. I could be in a psych ward, or in prison, if I didn't keep my shit together as best I did. Some people don't get out so lucky. Look up HPPD (Hallucinogen persisting perception disorder). I say no thank you to that.

I need to end this before I ramble more. Be safe.
 

Sinny91

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I highly recommend weed, but nothing else :)

You will not develop psychosis lol.

But some weed can make you paranoid.

There are various breeds and types designed to give you different highs, experiment.
 

Inquisitor

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All drugs are bad. Period.

Even casual use of marijuana will alter your brain structure, sap motivation, and ultimately make "natural rewards" like social interaction, studying, food and even sex less satisfying. It will f up your memory, and overall dull your mind.

Why handicap yourself when life is already challenging enough?

NIH
Medscape
Medical Xpress
Psychology Today
 

Tannhauser

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I watched another friend trigger his first manic episode. He thought that he had discovered the secrets to the bible. He was getting real time information from god.

A couple of years ago, a few blocks away from where I lived, some guy, after smoking weed and reading the bible, decided to kill his room mates and write "God" in blood on the wall at the entrance. Apparently he got the idea that he was supposed to be reborn as Jesus or something.

Drugs and bibles is a bad combination, apparently.
 
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considering I have hallucinations sometimes but no declared illness related to it.

That's interesting. Do you mean that your hallucinations don't affect how well you function or that you haven't seen a psychiatrist to get yourself diagnosed?
 

Oprale

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That's interesting. Do you mean that your hallucinations don't affect how well you function or that you haven't seen a psychiatrist to get yourself diagnosed?

Both, so far. My hallucinations only happens once or twice a month ( ~ ) and I know they're not real. The only time I didn't think they could be hallucinations was the month they started. I saw weird cloudy spirit like things with filaments floating a couple of centimeters above my floor and never thought it was abnormal. But 5 years passed since and it never happened again. They almost never happen when I'm with people. They don't freak me out enough to make me go crazy and don't want to step out of my bedroom, either. So right now I'm fine althougt can't say a thing about the future.

Psychedelics definitely interest me but I doubt I will ever try them. The idea of triggering long lasting psychotic symptoms is too grim for me. Weed looks fun and relatively safe. The harmful effects are mostly found in heavy smoker who started as teenagers. Just a couple of trys shouldn't do much harm. It's just to know what it does, satisfy my curiosity. I'm not the wisest person but I'm pretty sure I'm not hooked easily so I should be ok.

I won't try to elaborate more right now because I'm on my old ipod using a google app. Not the best device ;)
 

Cherry Cola

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Depends on your personality and situation, neither of which I know anything about. But basically, if you're a troubled individual in a troubled situation then drugs are very much likely to just make things worse.

When you do psychedelics you're supposed to be otherwise sober, patient and careful while dosing, have bensos or antipsychotics available in case things go awry, plus one or more sitters (people which you trust and feel comfortable around). That's how you don't get a prolonged psychosis.

@Lot: Why would you consume nutmeg and other antihistamines? Its well known that antihistamines produce unpleasant experience in pretty much everyone everytime. Plus they are deliriants, meaning you literally go crazy, meaning taking them is fucking dangerous, especially alone.

I'd like to try a deliriant some time, but then I'd want a combo of other drugs in low doses (benso, lyrica, weed, some opoid, maybe kratom) to stave off the unpleasant effects, as well a sitter.

@Inquisitor: Why would you go in here just to make a dogmatic statement and dump a bunch of links the content of which do not amount to much more than "dont smoke weed when you're growing up/still a teen"? :S

All drugs "alter" ones brain, the movies you watch "alter" your brain, life is brain-altering. Altering of ones brain can be both good and bad. Neurogenesis is brain-altering.

In any case the passivity which cannabis induces should not be understated, that's the real and pretty much only danger of it outside of authorities dipping their nose into your business.
 

Lot

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@Lot: Why would you consume nutmeg and other antihistamines? Its well known that antihistamines produce unpleasant experience in pretty much everyone everytime. Plus they are deliriants, meaning you literally go crazy, meaning taking them is fucking dangerous, especially alone.

I'd like to try a deliriant some time, but then I'd want a combo of other drugs in low doses (benso, lyrica, weed, some opoid, maybe kratom) to stave off the unpleasant effects, as well a sitter.

I do stupid things sometimes

The other antihistamine I took, was mostly by accident. I was sick and figured I'd use it as an excuse to abuse cold meds. I didn't research it enough, and thought it would hit me like benadryl. This was even after my bad experience with benadryl. I thought I was taking a low dose, and didn't know it had a much longer half life. At least it made my future bad lsa and my nutmeg trips, much much easier to handle.

The nutmeg was during a tolerance break from weed and I was desperate to get high. Life was so stressful and I just wanted a break from reality. It probably would have been fun if I had taken a little more and had a friend or two doing it with me. The physical discomfort would have been easier to deal with, having people to distract me. I will say, that night I had some fucking amazing dreams. They were so vivid and long. I woke up still pretty high the next morning. It was a lot better after 9 1/2 hours of super restful sleep. Then by noon I was sober. I can't forget to mention the munchies that hit me at the 5 hour mark on the come up. I ate so much fucking food. One straight hour of stuffing my face with everything in the house.
 

Cherry Cola

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I do stupid things sometimes

The other antihistamine I took, was mostly by accident. I was sick and figured I'd use it as an excuse to abuse cold meds. I didn't research it enough, and thought it would hit me like benadryl. This was even after my bad experience with benadryl. I thought I was taking a low dose, and didn't know it had a much longer half life. At least it made my future bad lsa and my nutmeg trips, much much easier to handle.

The nutmeg was during a tolerance break from weed and I was desperate to get high. Life was so stressful and I just wanted a break from reality. It probably would have been fun if I had taken a little more and had a friend or two doing it with me. The physical discomfort would have been easier to deal with, having people to distract me. I will say, that night I had some fucking amazing dreams. They were so vivid and long. I woke up still pretty high the next morning. It was a lot better after 9 1/2 hours of super restful sleep. Then by noon I was sober. I can't forget to mention the munchies that hit me at the 5 hour mark on the come up. I ate so much fucking food. One straight hour of stuffing my face with everything in the house.

hahahaha :D
 

Inquisitor

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@Inquisitor: Why would you go in here just to make a dogmatic statement and dump a bunch of links the content of which do not amount to much more than "dont smoke weed when you're growing up/still a teen"? :S

All drugs "alter" ones brain, the movies you watch "alter" your brain, life is brain-altering. Altering of ones brain can be both good and bad. Neurogenesis is brain-altering.

In any case the passivity which cannabis induces should not be understated, that's the real and pretty much only danger of it outside of authorities dipping their nose into your business.

No...if you read the studies I linked to, you'll see that marijuana alters brain structure in major ways...meaning it actually changes areas of the brain in a way that "life" does not, whatever that means...And you also just need to be a "casual user" for this to happen.

This evidence is fairly recent. I posted the links b/c there is a pervasive idea, especially among teens and college kids that marijuana is "not that bad" and actually may be "better for you than alcohol." I heard this mantra all the time in college. Incidentally, while it may be true that getting wasted is more harmful in certain ways than smoking a joint, according to the scientific evidence, marijuana appears to be far more harmful than previously thought. I'm all for trying things once and then leaving them behind, but I think the advice given here by others along the lines of "you can do it but just make sure you don't cross over into addiction territory" is terribly misguided.

I can be very critical of science at times, but in this case I think the evidence is clear: it's a poison that has significant cognitive consequences even in small doses.

Cannabis Use Is Quantitatively Associated with Nucleus Accumbens and Amygdala Abnormalities in Young Adult Recreational Users
 

Sinny91

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To expand on the negative side effects of cannabis, as a first time user smoking A LOT in one go may cause you to 'Whitey', which is named such because all the colour drains from your face, you feel light headed and you potentially puke. The chances of that are minimal unless your bonging with a low tolerance.

You will most likely develop the 'munchies'.
You will start thinking about random shit.
You may loose track of time.
You may become lazy.
Depending on the breed of weed you will either become sloth like or highly aware and dexterous.
You may be prone to fits of laughter.
You may fall asleep.
If your smoking with tobacco, you have to deal with the consequences of that too.

As in any case mind over matter will overcome the likely negative pitfalls.

All in all, the negatives are minimal and minor. So yes. Totally worth it.
As for other drugs, I dabble now again, even though I shouldn't, I would never recommend synthetic drugs to anyone.
 

Cherry Cola

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There is nothing about a drug being synthetic that makes it inherently worse than other drugs. I reckon its healthier to take a synthetic drug like LSD than to stuff oneself with mushrooms thereby ingesting a bunch of crap alongside the actual psychedelic. Untested synthetics are another matter.

No...if you read the studies I linked to, you'll see that marijuana alters brain structure in major ways...meaning it actually changes areas of the brain in a way that "life" does not, whatever that means...And you also just need to be a "casual user" for this to happen.

This evidence is fairly recent. I posted the links b/c there is a pervasive idea, especially among teens and college kids that marijuana is "not that bad" and actually may be "better for you than alcohol." I heard this mantra all the time in college. Incidentally, while it may be true that getting wasted is more harmful in certain ways than smoking a joint, according to the scientific evidence, marijuana appears to be far more harmful than previously thought. I'm all for trying things once and then leaving them behind, but I think the advice given here by others along the lines of "you can do it but just make sure you don't cross over into addiction territory" is terribly misguided.

I can be very critical of science at times, but in this case I think the evidence is clear: it's a poison that has significant cognitive consequences even in small doses.

Cannabis Use Is Quantitatively Associated with Nucleus Accumbens and Amygdala Abnormalities in Young Adult Recreational Users

What I'm getting at is that alterations and abnormalities do not mean much in themselves unless these alterations and abnormalities are proven to have negative effects. Though the effect on the amygdala does sound quite worrisome, especially considering the subjects were all past their teens.

But in any case the study was kinda small. Plus..

Marijuana participants used marijuana at least once a week, but were not dependent, according a Structured Clinical Interview for the DSM-IV (SCID; First et al., 2002). Marijuana participants were not excluded if they had used other illegal drugs in the past; however, they were excluded if they met abuse criteria for any drug other than marijuana


This preliminary study has several caveats. First, the sample size does not provide power to examine complex interactions such as sex differences. Because this is a cross-sectional study, causation cannot be determined, although marijuana exposure parametrically correlated with structural differences, which suggests the possibility of causation. Longitudinal studies are needed to determine whether marijuana exposure explicitly leads to the differences observed in this study. Furthermore, this study did not include quantifiable marijuana metabolite levels, which would have provided further information about the amount of marijuana exposure. This measure could be incorporated into future studies as a complementary measure to detailed timeline follow-back measures of drug use. Finally, age of onset was collected for marijuana use only. Early exposure to alcohol may have also affected brain structure (although no participant met criteria for past alcohol abuse or dependence).

Getting wasted IS really harmful though, the dangers of alcohol should not be understated. That marijuana is better for you than alcohol is not up for debate as of now. Consuming alcohol is literally drinking poison and every time you drink a moderate amount you subject your body to physical stress akin to a short lasting cold. Even if you stay within the recommended maximum weekly dosage your livers gonna be taking damage and you're going to have a bunch of other negative effects. And then you're not even considering the inherent risks involved with drinking, such as running a much higher chance of doing stupid harmful shit or having stupid harmful shit done to you.

It's really dumb how culturally ingrained alcohol consumption is. Its a hard fucking drug. And it fucking ruins people.
 

emmabobary

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I have to say I agree with Inquisitor. Been there, to me drugs are not as fun as most of people say they are, I mean : even just trying them, I consider it was a waste of time, never got why feeling dizzy, extremely exited, sometimes even scared, loosing consciousness, watching people acting like retards, including my self, doing absolutely nothing productive, or producing purely shitty pieces of "poetry", "music", etc; why all this things can be possibly more important or even fun than working without drugs. I never got it when I was into them, I really don't get it now.
I've tried marijuana, ayahuasca, recreational benzodiacepines, coke so far.
LAAAAAME.

personally I dislike people who try to sell this 'wonderland' idea of drugs.
Buuut.... The truth is that it doesnt worth the arguments to defend or criticise the use of drugs. There are not good sides or bad sides, neither the healthy middle ground.
Whatever the O.P. decides is her deal.
 

Sir Eus Lee

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Inquisitor

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Any idea why they checked for handedness?

Perhaps b/c handedness is a trait that results in different brain structures and they wanted to control for that when they did their scans...I don't know.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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Any idea why they checked for handedness?

As a left handed person, I've looked into it a little. Basically, it's my understanding that lefties have brain structures which differ from the standard righty structure. Different regions of lefty brains get co-opted into being used for different purposes and it's not always possible to predict which portions of their brain a lefty uses for which functions.

Obviously I'm oversimplifying and could easily be misremembering, but I'm like 75% sure that I've accurately conveyed the gist of why my people are excluded from most drug trials. We're outliers. Unique little snowflakes. Man, I'm so special. :D
 

Pizzabeak

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Decent points covered thus far so I have not much to add. Don't base your whole life off this but your hallucinations sound fairly mild and even hypnagogic. Unless you are seriously convinced the government is out to resurrect Jesus and reign destruction upon the lands I wouldn't be so concerned about possibly being admitted to a hospital. Catch is that some substances will trigger that anyway, in the more severe circumstances.
If you have never smoked pot or anything I would seriously refrain from advising whether to or not, or criticizing, as you sound just a wee bit pretentious. On a separate note, for starters, see what Carl Sagan had to say about pot: http://marijuana-uses.com/mr-x/
Also, this guy: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mens-wearhouse-weed-legalization_560442d3e4b0fde8b0d1affe
The thing about marijuana and these other substances is that they can be so damn nihilistic/existential that they make you want to be a better person, although that change can be difficult to exercise during regular hours because of attention span and previous conditioning.
As such, that's actually the point. Acid IS a mind controlling substance but it can be used for a positive connotation of mind control as well, on paper at least. You are essentially being re-conditioned to promote evolution on Earth and to increase compassion/empathy. No where in the rule book does it say these substances are "party drugs", as one would be led to believe. Keep in mind that quite a few of them originate from the New World and uses usually bear no resemblance to a Westerner's ideals whatsoever, and maybe you can make of that what you will.
Hm...
"Taking drugs should be about the experience of taking them, imo. Not about escaping the experience of being sober. You don't want to confuse the two." This is fairly accurate. You shouldn't want to start doing everything stoned, like going to dinner parties or work for the sake of. Best to just do those sober and on your leisure time listen to music or watch a favorite film stoned and see how you feel about it. In addition to paranoia (with extremely high doses) and possible errors in judgment, emmabobbary points out a good hazard here: "never got why feeling dizzy, extremely exited, sometimes even scared, loosing consciousness, watching people acting like retards, including my self, doing absolutely nothing productive, or producing purely shitty pieces of "poetry", "music", etc; why all this things can be possibly more important or even fun than working without drugs. I never got it when I was into them, I really don't get it now.
I've tried marijuana, ayahuasca, recreational benzodiacepines, coke so far.
LAAAAAME."
This is one of the reasons I maintain to consume after a decent day's work, if that's possible, so you don't feel guilty about neglecting any responsibilities. Otherwise the whole time you might be thinking about them and how as soon as you are sober you will make sure to do something about it. Also worthy of consideration is possible effects on the various types yet this is almost so arbitrary it may take too long to substantiate. Bottom line is that there is no singular effect to pot, as the high can manifest in a variety of ways.
I will also add that I know quite a few people who have never done "drugs" before. They are no more smarter, enlightened, or even happier than those who have. That isn't to say I don't know a few people whose brains are pretty much fried after ten plus years of some methamphetamine, a little pot, loads of alcohol, some cocaine; etc.
All weed does is make you tired and throws your REM off a bit so you may experience a few mild hallucinations. It was only made illegal and had propaganda produced because of corporate interest. Someone recently made a decent point about the different camps involved: the cultivator/consumers, the psychologist type who studies rat brain and receptors, and the therapist type who actually cares about the mental health of patients, and that these camps rarely if ever cooperate with one another.
 

redbaron

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Although people talk about how weed isn't harmful, every experience I've had with people I've known before and after them taking it up as a habit tends to make me think otherwise.

I'm skeptical of the perceived benefits of it, as they're highly intangible and rely heavily on self-reporting. Not saying they don't exist, but I'm pretty sure they're exaggerated most of the time.
 

Oprale

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To expand on the negative side effects of cannabis, as a first time user smoking A LOT in one go may cause you to 'Whitey', which is named such because all the colour drains from your face, you feel light headed and you potentially puke. The chances of that are minimal unless your bonging with a low tolerance.

You will most likely develop the 'munchies'.
You will start thinking about random shit.
You may loose track of time.
You may become lazy.
Depending on the breed of weed you will either become sloth like or highly aware and dexterous.
You may be prone to fits of laughter.
You may fall asleep.
If your smoking with tobacco, you have to deal with the consequences of that too.

Ok :) Will 2-3 bags of chips be enough if I get really hungry, lol. I would feel sad to eat a lot of good food just for a crave. Like leftovers or sandwiches that could've made actual lunches.

When you do psychedelics you're supposed to be otherwise sober, patient and careful while dosing, have bensos or antipsychotics available in case things go awry, plus one or more sitters (people which you trust and feel comfortable around). That's how you don't get a prolonged psychosis.

Ok, will remember in case my future self changes her mind.

1) Don't base your whole life off this but your hallucinations sound fairly mild and even hypnagogic. Unless you are seriously convinced the government is out to resurrect Jesus and reign destruction upon the lands I wouldn't be so concerned about possibly being admitted to a hospital.

2) "Taking drugs should be about the experience of taking them, imo. Not about escaping the experience of being sober. You don't want to confuse the two." This is fairly accurate. You shouldn't want to start doing everything stoned, like going to dinner parties or work for the sake of. Best to just do those sober and on your leisure time listen to music or watch a favorite film stoned and see how you feel about it.

This is one of the reasons I maintain to consume after a decent day's work, if that's possible, so you don't feel guilty about neglecting any responsibilities. Otherwise the whole time you might be thinking about them and how as soon as you are sober you will make sure to do something about it.

3) I will also add that I know quite a few people who have never done "drugs" before. They are no more smarter, enlightened, or even happier than those who have. That isn't to say I don't know a few people whose brains are pretty much fried after ten plus years of some methamphetamine, a little pot, loads of alcohol, some cocaine; etc.

All weed does is make you tired and throws your REM off a bit so you may experience a few mild hallucinations. It was only made illegal and had propaganda produced because of corporate interest. Someone recently made a decent point about the different camps involved: the cultivator/consumers, the psychologist type who studies rat brain and receptors, and the therapist type who actually cares about the mental health of patients, and that these camps rarely if ever cooperate with one another.

1) Yup, I figured that. It's still reassuring to hear it from someone else :) I never turned completely paranoiac. No meds needed for me. Yay.

2) Will do. What's the thing about music and drugs, is it that hypnotizing ? I guess I can't really imagine since I've never been there, but isn't it just music after all. Is some music better to listen to stoned than other ?

3) Got it. Well, I can't know for sure who between you and Brontosaurie is right about enlightment : or to be more clear, if I would feel enlightened or not. But it doesn't matter since I'm not seeking that. I just want to have new experiences.
Some people says it enlightens, some says it doesn't, some people says the risk of psychotic symptoms lasting after the high is high ( lol sorry for the repetition ), some says it isn't. Looks like every experiences are different from one another.

Also some breeds are making people tierd, some are making them paranoiac, and some are making them highly energized and aware, if I understood everyone's input well.

@Jennywocky A simple video and yet the message is very clear. That will stay in my mind.
 

Cherry Cola

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I have to say I agree with Inquisitor. Been there, to me drugs are not as fun as most of people say they are, I mean : even just trying them, I consider it was a waste of time, never got why feeling dizzy, extremely exited, sometimes even scared, loosing consciousness, watching people acting like retards, including my self, doing absolutely nothing productive, or producing purely shitty pieces of "poetry", "music", etc; why all this things can be possibly more important or even fun than working without drugs. I never got it when I was into them, I really don't get it now.
I've tried marijuana, ayahuasca, recreational benzodiacepines, coke so far.
LAAAAAME.

personally I dislike people who try to sell this 'wonderland' idea of drugs.
Buuut.... The truth is that it doesnt worth the arguments to defend or criticise the use of drugs. There are not good sides or bad sides, neither the healthy middle ground.
Whatever the O.P. decides is her deal.

Just because the stuff you create while intoxicated sucks doesn't mean everybody's does! Personally I lose precision but gain vision if trying to draw while high.

I think the point of that stuff you're listing is that it can be really fun and relieving to just be carried away by the experience in the moment.

It sounds to me like you haven't been doing drugs with the right crowd.

@Redbaron: Do you mean like lasting benefits? Cause in that case I agree. I don't get how people can not like weed though, I mean its relaxing, feels awesome, makes food, music, movies, games, writing, drawing and pretty much everything except paranoia inducing activities more fun. But apparently its not everyone's cup of tea.

Eventually the passivising effects are going to be scientifically understood and covered in detail, I hope the shit is legalized before that, cause hell if it isn't nicer than alcohol despite. Plus the fact that you have to keep out of public while smoking and to a certain extent while high worsens the passivity it induces.
 

Brontosaurie

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^ Tying in with CC:

Not only does it inforce passivity. It also inforces the stoner identity. It gives stoners the opportunity to rationalize their habit as an enlightened protest against antiquated mores, and it makes them feel unwanted and excluded. It pits them against society for no good reason.

I've been there myself and i've seen it to much more extreme degrees in others who aren't even aware of the mechanism and whose entire lives begin to revolve around cannabis, as much due to the social justice rebellion as the effects of the drug itself.

This reflects my views on prohibition in general. You get a black market which means lost tax revenue and escalated violence, but you also polarize the populace and make drug use a more alienating activity than it need be from a pharmacological perspective. When people are misunderstood and arbitrarily judged by law and order, there will be consequences. It's not unlike a child developing avoidant tendencies.
 

Terror

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If I reach 60, then I'll try some drugs.
 

emmabobary

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Just because the stuff you create while intoxicated sucks doesn't mean everybody's does! Personally I lose precision but gain vision if trying to draw while high.

I think the point of that stuff you're listing is that it can be really fun and relieving to just be carried away by the experience in the moment.

It sounds to me like you haven't been doing drugs with the right crowd.

OK, then. I'll just wait for the "right" people to re-do drugs...
... I don't think so :facepalm:

I never said "drugs are the way I say"
I suppose everyone has to form their own opinion, have their own experience.
So i don't buy you either.
I saw enough, and I really think that most of the people in drugs, if not addicts, they think they're special, that drugs give them super -artistic- powers or something like that, like a touch of that fashioned fatalist style of life.
But again, this is only my opinion.
I just own it.
 

Cherry Cola

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OK, then. I'll just wait for the "right" people to re-do drugs...
... I don't think so :facepalm:

I never said "drugs are the way I say"
I suppose everyone has to form their own opinion, have their own experience.
So i don't buy you either.
I saw enough, and I really think that most of the people in drugs, if not addicts, they think they're special, that drugs give them super -artistic- powers or something like that, like a touch of that fashioned fatalist style of life.
But again, this is only my opinion.
I just own it.

There's those people, sure. But there's also a bunch of casual users who aren't. I just think you pigeonhole drug users based on anecdotes.

@Bronto: Aye, not to mention all the other ways in which keeping the plant illegal reinforces its negative effects.

Also Mexican drug cartel: ffs legalize.

@Pizzabeak: Great points man, especially the second one.

2) "Taking drugs should be about the experience of taking them, imo. Not about escaping the experience of being sober. You don't want to confuse the two." This is fairly accurate. You shouldn't want to start doing everything stoned, like going to dinner parties or work for the sake of. Best to just do those sober and on your leisure time listen to music or watch a favorite film stoned and see how you feel about it.

This is one of the reasons I maintain to consume after a decent day's work, if that's possible, so you don't feel guilty about neglecting any responsibilities. Otherwise the whole time you might be thinking about them and how as soon as you are sober you will make sure to do something about it.


^Word yao
 

Pizzabeak

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Some people can end up being a pain in the ass to work with so then, who is entirely at fault? It can be like going out for an event then sort of wishing you just stayed home. If you do manage to find ideal individuals to "do drugs" with on a semi regular and frequent basis then that can indeed be said to be a luxury of sorts. Even then I wonder how long it could last.
It isn't necessary but truth is most people doing most things were doing drugs at the time, whether it be writing for a magazine or what have you. Not exclusive, as some mildly successful artists have done things sober.
Tangentially I find it just interesting and maybe proper that emmabobbary claimed to have done ayahuasca and got nothing out of it, except that drugs are bad and suck. In some ways that isn't entirely a bad thing. Although, in some instances it sounds like a preconceived notion mostly colored the experiences.
I will reiterate and suggest that pot is just a medicine liable to abuse, akin to drinking cough syrup in order to get off.
Here's part of it. Mostly the simplest way to ease cancer victim's pain, if nothing else:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=IFkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2202,2103831&hl=en

http://www.ukcia.org/medical/showmedicaltestimony.php?articleid=6

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_marijuana.html

http://www.marijuanalibrary.org/MTFM_Musikka_1993.html

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._elvy-musikka-grow-marijuana-obtain-marijuana

http://www.safeaccessnow.org/multiple_sclerosis_booklet


http://www.healthmj.com/cancer/22-quotes-about-cannabis-every-cancer-patient-should-see/

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...PlT_hNfXjQyiQ0Ehw&sig2=5L4MYlISD6nGyxe6EBgdFA

So I suppose as a side effect to those you get:
"Even casual use of marijuana will alter your brain structure, sap motivation, and ultimately make "natural rewards" like social interaction, studying, food and even sex less satisfying. It will f up your memory, and overall dull your mind.

Why handicap yourself when life is already challenging enough?";etc

So what should the main point be. From my own experience I can go days without it with no problem and function like a typical person, wishing there was more time in the day, or what have you. Only when someone wants to hang out is pot involved. Certain buzzkills can render it overrated. When scheduling is ideal I can get home late and not have much time to partake in it anyway. Other times it is the reason we stay up late and celebrate a bit longer. I only wish that I don't fall asleep before the scheduled programming is complete and that there could be enough incentive to stay up as long as possible when that is the case. To conclude, weed is definitely prone to become overrated although it can still aid in some kind of way. A lot probably still needs to be discussed.
 

Feather

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Your hallucinations may not be a problem don't automatically think that. The healther I got the more I could talk too and visit the other side. Now I am not a brain scientist it could be a glitchy system your operating from. But reality is trippy by nature when it gets trippy it's often normal and or opportunity to investigate some truth
 

Inquisitor

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Some people can end up being a pain in the ass to work with so then, who is entirely at fault? It can be like going out for an event then sort of wishing you just stayed home. If you do manage to find ideal individuals to "do drugs" with on a semi regular and frequent basis then that can indeed be said to be a luxury of sorts. Even then I wonder how long it could last.
It isn't necessary but truth is most people doing most things were doing drugs at the time, whether it be writing for a magazine or what have you. Not exclusive, as some mildly successful artists have done things sober.
Tangentially I find it just interesting and maybe proper that emmabobbary claimed to have done ayahuasca and got nothing out of it, except that drugs are bad and suck. In some ways that isn't entirely a bad thing. Although, in some instances it sounds like a preconceived notion mostly colored the experiences.
I will reiterate and suggest that pot is just a medicine liable to abuse, akin to drinking cough syrup in order to get off.
Here's part of it. Mostly the simplest way to ease cancer victim's pain, if nothing else:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=IFkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2202,2103831&hl=en

http://www.ukcia.org/medical/showmedicaltestimony.php?articleid=6

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_marijuana.html

http://www.marijuanalibrary.org/MTFM_Musikka_1993.html

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._elvy-musikka-grow-marijuana-obtain-marijuana

http://www.safeaccessnow.org/multiple_sclerosis_booklet


http://www.healthmj.com/cancer/22-quotes-about-cannabis-every-cancer-patient-should-see/

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...PlT_hNfXjQyiQ0Ehw&sig2=5L4MYlISD6nGyxe6EBgdFA

So I suppose as a side effect to those you get:
"Even casual use of marijuana will alter your brain structure, sap motivation, and ultimately make "natural rewards" like social interaction, studying, food and even sex less satisfying. It will f up your memory, and overall dull your mind.

Why handicap yourself when life is already challenging enough?";etc

So what should the main point be. From my own experience I can go days without it with no problem and function like a typical person, wishing there was more time in the day, or what have you. Only when someone wants to hang out is pot involved. Certain buzzkills can render it overrated. When scheduling is ideal I can get home late and not have much time to partake in it anyway. Other times it is the reason we stay up late and celebrate a bit longer. I only wish that I don't fall asleep before the scheduled programming is complete and that there could be enough incentive to stay up as long as possible when that is the case. To conclude, weed is definitely prone to become overrated although it can still aid in some kind of way. A lot probably still needs to be discussed.

I have no objection to truly sick people using marijuana to alleviate pain. If that's really, truly the only recourse they have, then they should be allowed to get a prescription for it. Everyone else should pass if they want to maintain brain health.
 

Brontosaurie

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I have no objection to truly sick people using marijuana to alleviate pain. If that's really, truly the only recourse they have, then they should be allowed to get a prescription for it. Everyone else should pass if they want to maintain brain health.

I'm not sure what you mean. Here is your brain on pot:

4.jpg


There's even a new person chilling inside the brain. It has mechanical gears and all kinds of cool, very organic structures.
 

Pizzabeak

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How to address the purported deteriorating brain health of the suffering patients who need it though? Is it a little like drinking brandy during serious potential injuries. I have already opined that it isn't much worth it to worship weed and make a lifestyle of it. Marijuana is still the least harmful substance out there, doesn't mean you should smoke it. Quite frankly though everyone should try it once with friends or acquaintances, even the world's leading political officials and authorities on scientific thought. I have agreed that the soft benefits are nearly indistinguishable from the sober counterparts. Yet even with the known action it has on binding sites in the brain a lot of working men will appreciate the insights it would provide. Most people won't breathe the air in their own home if they knew what was in it. Even so, I do worry about the future generation of kids and how it will affect anything.. I've known a few fifteen year old smokers which to say the least is a bit odd to see. Usually people stop after a couple years or at least cease nearly abusing it, and wisen up. Further still, many adults worldwide claim it to be a favorite pastime and won't be persuaded so easily to give it up since it regularly makes them happy and helps them cope. If anything, alcohol and cigarettes should be condemned before pot, although pot certainly can use a bit more criticism, at least to the point where proponents won't throw an emotional fit when someone says it can be harmful. Don't think it's clear exactly what kind of harmful it would be after prolonged years yet. Doesn't mean those people would be unable to work hard at something and produce a significant thing, however important that may be, does it?
 

Inquisitor

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How to address the purported deteriorating brain health of the suffering patients who need it though? Is it a little like drinking brandy during serious potential injuries. I have already opined that it isn't much worth it to worship weed and make a lifestyle of it. Marijuana is still the least harmful substance out there, doesn't mean you should smoke it. Quite frankly though everyone should try it once with friends or acquaintances, even the world's leading political officials and authorities on scientific thought. I have agreed that the soft benefits are nearly indistinguishable from the sober counterparts. Yet even with the known action it has on binding sites in the brain a lot of working men will appreciate the insights it would provide. Most people won't breathe the air in their own home if they knew what was in it. Even so, I do worry about the future generation of kids and how it will affect anything.. I've known a few fifteen year old smokers which to say the least is a bit odd to see. Usually people stop after a couple years or at least cease nearly abusing it, and wisen up. Further still, many adults worldwide claim it to be a favorite pastime and won't be persuaded so easily to give it up since it regularly makes them happy and helps them cope. If anything, alcohol and cigarettes should be condemned before pot, although pot certainly can use a bit more criticism, at least to the point where proponents won't throw an emotional fit when someone says it can be harmful. Don't think it's clear exactly what kind of harmful it would be after prolonged years yet. Doesn't mean those people would be unable to work hard at something and produce a significant thing, however important that may be, does it?

The evidence is clear it's harmful. I linked to studies in my previous posts that showed even small amounts of weed alter brain structure. Just say no. Once you legalize a thing, you're basically opening up pandora's box. The companies that sell marijuana products are going to get rich and powerful and will be able to lobby congress to get their way. It becomes very difficult to stuff the genie back into the bottle once it's out. The cigarette companies have fought health regulations every step of the way since the first 1965 Surgeon General's warning concerning the link between smoking and lung cancer. It's taken us decades to pass legislation that really makes a dent in bringing down the smoking rate...And people are still smoking now despite the costs, proven health consequences, and the unpleasantness of second-hand smoke for other people. Thankfully, in 50 years the rate has dropped to one third of what it used to be, but having nearly 25% of your population consuming a lethal substance is still far from ideal, especially if you take into account the true costs of this consumption. I heard another study claiming that lost work productivity alone due to alcohol accounts for about $70-80 billion a year. All this shit adds up quick. Now with marijuana sapping people's motivation even further, the costs are going to keep going up, and because it significantly alters brain structure, the long-term consequences in terms of lost productivity I predict will be significantly worse than people might anticipate. Recovering from a hangover takes a day or two. Cigarettes actually temporarily improve cognition, similar to what coffee does, but pot's effects appear to last much, much longer. I used to be equivocal about this, but I didn't realize the extent of the consequences. They are severe indeed.
 

Brontosaurie

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All you're currently saying is that cannabis isn't harmless. Everyone knows this. It's a blatant strawman spiced up with vapid scares like "altered brain structure". Oh, putting something in the brain alters the brain? Who would've guessed. This fact appears relevant only to those unfamiliar with the last decades of progress on neuroplasticity... That horrible dirty non-pristine cause and effect shenanigans - such a drugs thing. Drugs are satan. Blah blah.

What you'd want to be saying in order to make a relevant point is that prohibition works. I can see why you're not saying that however, since it's false.

If you don't advocate bans on everything unhealthy, your position reduces itself to mere hypocrisy. Do you want to ban all unhealthy, nutritionally negative foods?
 

YOLOisonlyprinciple

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Idk, but my self-policy for drugs is like this,
there is a 10-15% addiction rate for marijuana, so is it worth the risk of losing your productive years by becoming an addict?
My answer is no, im not saying never to take them; but to take them after my productive/intellectual years are over..
So, drugs are in my old-age bucket list, something id definitely use it when im 50-60. And given current medical sciences i can expect another 30-40 years of enjoying that stuff at that age. Same for cigarettes and alcohol, just postponing it to an age where your health isnt an enabler anyway for most physical activities; and a lot of your options get limited.
 

Inquisitor

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All you're currently saying is that cannabis isn't harmless. Everyone knows this. It's a blatant strawman spiced up with vapid scares like "altered brain structure". Oh, putting something in the brain alters the brain? Who would've guessed. This fact appears relevant only to those unfamiliar with the last decades of progress on neuroplasticity... That horrible dirty non-pristine cause and effect shenanigans - such a drugs thing. Drugs are satan. Blah blah.

What you'd want to be saying in order to make a relevant point is that prohibition works. I can see why you're not saying that however, since it's false.

If you don't advocate bans on everything unhealthy, your position reduces itself to mere hypocrisy. Do you want to ban all unhealthy, nutritionally negative foods?

Prohibition works. It just has negative side effects. Also, the implementation is key. Decriminalizing marijuana possession below a certain amount is far superior to what we have now, but we should keep the production of marijuana illegal. As for unhealthy foods, to answer your question, yes I would ban them too. Most of what is found in the supermarket is poisonous in the long term. It's a non-food. The answer to the OP's question is "no." That's what my post is about.
 

Urakro

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Yo, if anyone needs to get hooked up with potato chips, my budz got some plain ripples down in the underground black market. Just tell 'im fat tony sent ya.

Just keep it hush tho, don't want the pigs catching wind if you know what I mean.
 

J-man

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The good drugs are the ones that allow you to see the beauty of existence by changing your perspective. Not the ones that make you feel good for no reason.

“I think of going to the grave without having a psychedelic experience like going to the grave without ever having sex. It means that you never figured out what it is all about.” - Terence McKenna.

If you arranged all possible perspectives on a spectrum from absolutely sane to absolutely psychotic, there would be no line; it would just blend together. Actually I don't think anyone has the authority to judge whether a perspective is sane or not.
 

Pizzabeak

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The evidence is clear it's harmful. I linked to studies in my previous posts that showed even small amounts of weed alter brain structure. Just say no. Once you legalize a thing, you're basically opening up pandora's box. The companies that sell marijuana products are going to get rich and powerful and will be able to lobby congress to get their way. It becomes very difficult to stuff the genie back into the bottle once it's out. The cigarette companies have fought health regulations every step of the way since the first 1965 Surgeon General's warning concerning the link between smoking and lung cancer. It's taken us decades to pass legislation that really makes a dent in bringing down the smoking rate...And people are still smoking now despite the costs, proven health consequences, and the unpleasantness of second-hand smoke for other people. Thankfully, in 50 years the rate has dropped to one third of what it used to be, but having nearly 25% of your population consuming a lethal substance is still far from ideal, especially if you take into account the true costs of this consumption. I heard another study claiming that lost work productivity alone due to alcohol accounts for about $70-80 billion a year. All this shit adds up quick. Now with marijuana sapping people's motivation even further, the costs are going to keep going up, and because it significantly alters brain structure, the long-term consequences in terms of lost productivity I predict will be significantly worse than people might anticipate. Recovering from a hangover takes a day or two. Cigarettes actually temporarily improve cognition, similar to what coffee does, but pot's effects appear to last much, much longer. I used to be equivocal about this, but I didn't realize the extent of the consequences. They are severe indeed.

Unfortunately, plenty of studies show and suggest that marijuana use is not as harmful as one would think: http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/adb-adb0000103.pdf
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/35/4/1505.full.pdf+html
It's not all about "heavy marijuana use causes deleterious brain changes". As everyone knows, consistent anything can affect brain. Take Michael Jordan for example, the athlete, whose brain is different from playing so much basketball. Has nothing to do with what you probably think it does, I bet he wishes he spent more time crunching numbers. Besides, psilocybin (mushrooms) have been implicated in neurogenesis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23727882Worth trying or no? I actually know what the point is. It is that being in space (zero gravity) causes changes to the body and brain.
I have mentioned many times my own views and recommendations for marijuana. And in fact, one particular consensus is that after a short while it is no longer needed to access certain experiences that it may have offered. Consciousness changes via non chemical means indeed. Chasing the dragon is optional and maybe not necessarily condemned. There are no hangovers on pot but rather many report "reverse" hangovers in which they feel exceptionally well and can and do go to work the next day in a delightful mood and yes many people do smoke cigarettes at work - maybe they should ban those considering the health risks. I have already linked to a case in which in at least one individual's motivation was not decreased. Regardless, I am not going to spend all my energy convincing people to become lifelong weed smokers. I am already unpopular enough to some people for sharing my views on it, backing it up with a few sources. That is not to say it can't or does not aid something in one way or another and that it is automatically 'bad'. One of the more recent interesting uses for these substances is to administer them before death to ease the transition. And who would have thunk it, no matter what you do someone will associate a negative health effect with it. As always,
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-08/apa-tmu080315.php
http://www.newsweek.com/2015/07/31/keep-toke-alive-356032.html
 

Inquisitor

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Unfortunately, plenty of studies show and suggest that marijuana use is not as harmful as one would think: http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/adb-adb0000103.pdf
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/35/4/1505.full.pdf+html
It's not all about "heavy marijuana use causes deleterious brain changes". As everyone knows, consistent anything can affect brain. Take Michael Jordan for example, the athlete, whose brain is different from playing so much basketball. Has nothing to do with what you probably think it does, I bet he wishes he spent more time crunching numbers. Besides, psilocybin (mushrooms) have been implicated in neurogenesis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23727882Worth trying or no? I actually know what the point is. It is that being in space (zero gravity) causes changes to the body and brain.
I have mentioned many times my own views and recommendations for marijuana. And in fact, one particular consensus is that after a short while it is no longer needed to access certain experiences that it may have offered. Consciousness changes via non chemical means indeed. Chasing the dragon is optional and maybe not necessarily condemned. There are no hangovers on pot but rather many report "reverse" hangovers in which they feel exceptionally well and can and do go to work the next day in a delightful mood and yes many people do smoke cigarettes at work - maybe they should ban those considering the health risks. I have already linked to a case in which in at least one individual's motivation was not decreased. Regardless, I am not going to spend all my energy convincing people to become lifelong weed smokers. I am already unpopular enough to some people for sharing my views on it, backing it up with a few sources. That is not to say it can't or does not aid something in one way or another and that it is automatically 'bad'. One of the more recent interesting uses for these substances is to administer them before death to ease the transition. And who would have thunk it, no matter what you do someone will associate a negative health effect with it. As always,
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-08/apa-tmu080315.php
http://www.newsweek.com/2015/07/31/keep-toke-alive-356032.html

Interesting. Doesn't change my stance in the least. Plenty of studies show the opposite from the ones you linked to. We know it affects learning and memory in the short term. That should be enough of a reason. But people want to keep running after pleasurable experiences. If that's what they want, let them do it, don't imprison them for minor possession (that's a ridiculous policy), but at the same time, legalizing production nation-wide is going to create enormous problems. There will be a lot more users, people driving under the influence, hallucinating, and so forth. Also, lack of evidence that marijuana causes "health problems" like psychosis, depression, cancer, and so on does not mean that marijuana users are succeeding in life or even well-served by their habit. Just the opposite in fact.
 

Pizzabeak

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Interesting. Doesn't change my stance in the least.
I know. Sure you aren't Si-dom (jk)? Not really here to change stances especially when it is clear they won't budge but at least now you know, or are at the very least considering the info.
(Has nothing to do with anything: http://www.thewire.com/technology/2011/11/science-sure-smart-people-love-drugs/45015/)
Plenty of studies show the opposite from the ones you linked to. We know it affects learning and memory in the short term. That should be enough of a reason.
We do? Well try learning whilst piss drunk wasted off alcohol. Not really going to happen. Slightly similar case with pot. You don't do it to literally "learn". There are other things going on at the moment - and you are learning other things. It's transient and short term because you are stoned, afterwards you are pretty much back to normal except have had a somewhat interesting experience, which sticks in the mind. It's hard to learn something while lying comfortable in your bed getting your 8 hours sleep. That's why you learn elsewhen.
But people want to keep running after pleasurable experiences. If that's what they want, let them do it, don't imprison them for minor possession (that's a ridiculous policy), but at the same time, legalizing production nation-wide is going to create enormous problems.
I suppose most people run after it for euphoria. It isn't that simple. Propaganda. Pot is a medicine and even recreationally it should be used for meditative purposes and to ask questions.
And even that varies. In California it is damn near legal. Cops don't confiscate small amounts, they let that fly even without the proper licensing. They only go after large scale distributors without a license to sell. Worst case scenario is they take your little ten sack and fine you thirty bucks. They only target heavy duty operations mainly for potential dirty profit and possible intent to distribute to minors. So actually, I am not sure who is dishing out orders or what to focus on.
There will be a lot more users,
Not necessarily.
people driving under the influence, hallucinating, and so forth. Also, lack of evidence that marijuana causes "health problems" like psychosis, depression, cancer, and so on does not mean that marijuana users are succeeding in life or even well-served by their habit. Just the opposite in fact.
Driving stoned can be way safer than driving drunk. I don't think you actually know what a hallucination is. Never said or claimed anything about pot users succeeding or failing. But okay. It can certainly make people more content with their situations and hobbies, and even want to change for the better. Woohoo. More money and success for the non users then. There are certain times when you shouldn't consume marijuana products. Some people even wait until they are successful and then bathe in the pot. So sure, there was that one study done in the 70's that ISTJs like to bring up about marijuana users having lower everything than non users. That just reinforces capitalist values and tells you a lot about people. Doesn't mean you should become a heavy everyday hash smoker. Most places here don't even piss test anymore, I wonder why.
 

Inquisitor

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I know. Sure you aren't Si-dom (jk)? Not really here to change stances especially when it is clear they won't budge but at least now you know, or are at the very least considering the info.
(Has nothing to do with anything: http://www.thewire.com/technology/2011/11/science-sure-smart-people-love-drugs/45015/)

I bet I've considered the "info" a lot longer than you have.

We do? Well try learning whilst piss drunk wasted off alcohol. Not really going to happen. Slightly similar case with pot. You don't do it to literally "learn". There are other things going on at the moment - and you are learning other things. It's transient and short term because you are stoned, afterwards you are pretty much back to normal except have had a somewhat interesting experience, which sticks in the mind. It's hard to learn something while lying comfortable in your bed getting your 8 hours sleep. That's why you learn elsewhen.

Yup. The very study you linked to made that assertion despite not finding evidence that brain structure changes due to pot alone. You want to risk it, go ahead, but I think advocating its use is not in your best interests or in anyone else's for that matter.

I suppose most people run after it for euphoria. It isn't that simple. Propaganda. Pot is a medicine and even recreationally it should be used for meditative purposes and to ask questions.

Bullshit. People invent all kinds of rationales to justify what is in essence simply a hedonistic activity. If you really want a solid understanding of all the potential ramifications of long-term marijuana ingestion (that have not yet been researched by western science), there's no better place to turn to than Ayurveda, the traditional medicine of India for the past 5000 years. Marijuana has been recognized and used by Ayurveda for many different purposes, but usually as part of a specific herbal preparation and not alone. The texts indicate that it is fundamentally a toxic substance and that recreational use is imbalancing, simultaneously dulls the mind and agitates it, and enkindles digestion. Do a quick Google search of "Ayurveda marijuana" and you will get an idea of an alternative perspective on this. Again, you want to smoke, it's a free country, but it's not only western medicine that frowns on using pot recreationally, but also Ayurveda. Incidentally, I regularly consult with an Indian Ayurvedic physician, so next time I go, I will make sure to get the exact quotes from the classic texts concerning this topic.

In the mean time: you can check out what the UN says about this. It's always been used as medicine, not for recreation.

And even that varies. In California it is damn near legal. Cops don't confiscate small amounts, they let that fly even without the proper licensing. They only go after large scale distributors without a license to sell. Worst case scenario is they take your little ten sack and fine you thirty bucks. They only target heavy duty operations mainly for potential dirty profit and possible intent to distribute to minors. So actually, I am not sure who is dishing out orders or what to focus on.

Not everywhere.

Not necessarily.

Yes necessarily. Millions of added users is the best estimate.

Driving stoned can be way safer than driving drunk. I don't think you actually know what a hallucination is. Never said or claimed anything about pot users succeeding or failing. But okay. It can certainly make people more content with their situations and hobbies, and even want to change for the better. Woohoo. More money and success for the non users then. There are certain times when you shouldn't consume marijuana products. Some people even wait until they are successful and then bathe in the pot. So sure, there was that one study done in the 70's that ISTJs like to bring up about marijuana users having lower everything than non users. That just reinforces capitalist values and tells you a lot about people. Doesn't mean you should become a heavy everyday hash smoker. Most places here don't even piss test anymore, I wonder why.

Driving under the influence of marijuana is illegal and dangerous. I hope you don't do it.
 

Pizzabeak

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I bet I've considered the "info" a lot longer than you have.
If you aren't in your early twenties then I'm sure you probably have.

Yup. The very study you linked to made that assertion despite not finding evidence that brain structure changes due to pot alone. You want to risk it, go ahead, but I think advocating its use is not in your best interests or in anyone else's for that matter.
I'm not advocating. I have experience advocating against it. I'm just saying.


Bullshit. People invent all kinds of rationales to justify what is in essence simply a hedonistic activity. If you really want a solid understanding of all the potential ramifications of long-term marijuana ingestion (that have not yet been researched by western science), there's no better place to turn to than Ayurveda, the traditional medicine of India for the past 5000 years. Marijuana has been recognized and used by Ayurveda for many different purposes, but usually as part of a specific herbal preparation and not alone. The texts indicate that it is fundamentally a toxic substance and that recreational use is imbalancing, simultaneously dulls the mind and agitates it, and enkindles digestion. Do a quick Google search of "Ayurveda marijuana" and you will get an idea of an alternative perspective on this. Again, you want to smoke, it's a free country, but it's not only western medicine that frowns on using pot recreationally, but also Ayurveda. Incidentally, I regularly consult with an Indian Ayurvedic physician, so next time I go, I will make sure to get the exact quotes from the classic texts concerning this topic.

In the mean time: you can check out what the UN says about this. It's always been used as medicine, not for recreation.
Yes. Well, I suppose there's always bhang.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhang



Yes necessarily. Millions of added users is the best estimate.
It isn't that hard to avoid cigarettes or alcohol.

Driving under the influence of marijuana is illegal and dangerous. I hope you don't do it.
Okay.
 

Cherry Cola

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Also, lack of evidence that marijuana causes "health problems" like psychosis, depression, cancer, and so on does not mean that marijuana users are succeeding in life or even well-served by their habit. Just the opposite in fact.

Lack of evidence means just the opposite? Ok spinach is bad for you. Also Ayurveda lol.

Although laboratory experiments suggest it is possible that some substances in Ayurveda might be developed into effective treatments, there is no evidence that any are effective as currently proffered.[117] Modern ayurvedic medicine is considered pseudoscientific.[118] Other researchers consider it a proto-science, an unscientific, or trans-science system instead.[119][120][121] Concerns were raised when 20% of Ayurvedic U.S. and Indian-manufactured patent medicines sold through the Internet were found to contain toxic levels of heavy metals such as lead, mercury, and arsenic.[125][126]

Research into ayurveda has been characterized as pseudoscience. Both the lack of scientific soundness in the theoretical foundations of ayurveda and the quality of research have been criticized


You had some strong points, so why do you now dilute your case with bullshit ? :S
 
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