Is there a Maximum Override?

[Duxwing]

Dear Forum,

In all my days as an INTP, I've always tried to keep my emotions from gumming up my Ti; while this is sometimes taken to the extreme during times of danger (conflicts) I generally try to prevent self-damage from occurring. Nevertheless, there have been times when all the logic and willpower I had was insufficient to "override" or "detach" my emotions entirely (such that they would not crop up again).

This can lead to, from least to most extreme: a slightly increased heart rate and involuntary face flush (perhaps I'm in denial, but it's my hormones, I swear!) to a near-total breakdown of voluntary movement in the direction of perceived danger.
Thus, I raise the question: how much Fe or even Fi can you override as described above?

Assuming that you aren't emotionally disturbed, post your answer in multiples of "death of a loved one," (DALO) or "imminent death by murder" (IDBM) which will be the yardsticks for this essay.

Examples include:
-Seeing a girl I like in class (I'm ashamed of this one, I intuit that I should be able to fully override such a base drive)
-Putting a pillow over my face in a dark room while lying down and thinking scary thoughts (I was trying to test the limits of my will over fear)
-Looking down a forty-foot free fall while billeting between two trees during gym
-Losing my teddy bear (he was what I used to soothe my Fi)

-Duxwing

 

[Etheri]

During the years I controlled and / or ignored my emotions, I felt it was a continuous process, which you get constantly better at. It starts simple, but it never ends. I've somewhat recently started questioning how far I want to drive this. I might want to take a few steps back, I might not even have a choice (the kraken is released!)... It makes no matter. As long as I can maintain basic levels of control over my emotions (not showing them in public, not going for emotional rollercoasters and alike bullshit), i'm fine with some feeling. I just hate it when my feelings won't conform with my thoughts. Because we all know who is, in the end, always right.

 

[BigApplePi]

This is just a guess, but such vast and powerful areas of emotion are those areas unexamined by Ti ... if I may put it that way. I wouldn't use the word, "override", but rather contain. Containment may take quite some skill though. One can ask questions:

1. Am I experienced with this?
2. Where can I locate experience?
3. Can I identify what "this" is?
4. Am I aware of how Si is operating so if my mind gets overwhelmed at least my body can be controlled.

 

[intpz]

According to the theory, you don't use much of Fi if you're an INTP.

But anyway, you seem rather emotional, and there aren't any universal limits. I, for one, don't get emotional nor I believe in universal truths. Have you considered being an INFP? You seem too emotional for an INTP.

 

[BigApplePi]

@intpz or anyone.

According to the theory, you don't use much of Fi if you're an INTP.

That's a great point. What is an INTP doing with Fi unless they are INFP? Here is an answer I was toying with but don't know if it's correct:

INTP's don't value emotion. Yet it's there. We all have emotion (or feeling) and you can see it in every post on this forum. It's just that when it comes to consciousness, it's devalued and ignored, maybe suppressed as "stupid." Those are just thoughts and I wonder what the experts have to say?

Another way of saying it is, when an INTP experiences emotion, they feel it alright, but it's not a cognitive function. It goes to Ti, Ne and Si. I may contradict that statement later, but I'd still like to hear from those more experienced with MBTI.

 

[Etheri]

I, for one, don't get emotional

How about I fix it for you :

I, for one, am not (yet) aware of my emotions. Unfortunately, nearly everyone else on the forum is.

It's okay, we still love you, even if you cannot give any love back, for lack of emotions.

@BigApplePi : Your point is entirely valid, but I do think we all have all 8 functions, it's just that 4 / 8 drain the crap out of us, so we (subconciously?) try to avoid them at all times. Besides, us INTP's have enough trouble with Fe as it is, no need to involve another 4 functions we're terrible at. ;D

 

[intpz]

Although, what he's feeling is Fe, not Fi. I think. Not confident about this distinction.

@Etheri or I am not an INTP. Fi may fit me more, as far as I know what Fi is.

 

[Etheri]

@Etheri or I am not an INTP. Fi may fit me more, as far as I know what Fi is.

Doesn't change the fact that you do feel emotions. Or you are a sociopath / psychopath. Because those genuinely don't have emotions. (Not 100% sure about that, but hey.)

 

[Duxwing]

If I'm emotional, then it's likely because I've been in existential despair for seven months straight: depersonalized, derealized, verging suicidal, and forced (mostly by my mom) into using my shadow functions just to stay functioning. I think this post may be evidence of my mind starting to crack under the load; hence the discussion of override.

The worst is that everyone I talk to just wants me to be someone else: even my therapist. He tells me to "slip into a character" in order to be social and release my emotions unto myself. Then my guidance counselors tell me to be like Pooh, smell the roses, and "just stop thinking". Combine that with anxiety problems and a fight with addiction, and even I can't stand up to it anymore.

The only analogy I can think of is a knight being faced by bowmen. No matter how thick his armor is-- or how well I can handle my Fi-- eventually, n arrows-- or p level of pain-- will defeat it-- or drive me to suicide. Ever since I was little, the bowmen have been firing: bullying, lack of social skills, behavior problems, anger issues. Hence the need for the bear, it was with me since I was born and acted just like an n-dimensional hypercube for my troubles. Even moreso, he was one of the few beings (I treated them like real, sentient beings when I was little) whom I let in entirely, right down to the bottom. Then, just as I was about to hit middle school, I lost him at the airport.

I grieved.

But that doesn't make me an INFP. If I were an INFP, I intuit that I would have developed empathy far sooner, and wouldn't need to do it forecefully, than I did and would be capable of writing a basic apology letter to a girl whose feelings I didn't notice for 2.5 years and completely balked at when she asked me to the dance. INFP, my eye.

I'd be sooner to doubt my I than my T: I feel at ease on stage and have no hesitation in engaging others in conversation (though protracted small talk will wear me out quickly). Nevertheless, therapy has been largely aimed at making me into an ESFJ, which is apparently what people around me want. My mom thinks my thoughts are stupid, they (the teachers) freaked out when I didn't want to play with the other kids at recess, my guidance counselors want me to be Pooh. At the risk of sounding like a typical teenager, few understand my problems enough to help me.

I just wonder (I don't think I can hope in the true sense, relativism and all that) if my mind will fail before I extricate myself from this issue.

-Duxwing

 

[PhoenixRising]

I've noticed that my ability to detach from emotions lessens when I haven't had enough sleep, or if I have low blood sugar. My cerebral cortex seems to be more affected by lack of sleep or glucose than the reptilian structures of my brain are. Stress can effect it as well.

For IDBM, I have an automatic reaction to shut off all emotions when threatened. So in situations like that, I operate entirely on logical thought. I have had people try to kill me (by strangulation) and I remember feeling nothing, but analyzing the situation and reacting with a hand twist move I learned in karate.

As for DOLA, that one is a bit more complex. My grandmother died a couple of years ago, we were really close. I've never gone through the standard grief process. I was very sad when I first heard the news, but was quickly able to detach so that I could focus on my work. I went to work the next day and performed as usual. I do think fondly of her often, but I have successfully suspended any negative emotions associated with her death.

 

[intpz]

Doesn't change the fact that you do feel emotions. Or you are a sociopath / psychopath. Because those genuinely don't have emotions. (Not 100% sure about that, but hey.)

Would be great to get an example of what an Fi feels versus what an Fe feels. Any Architects around here?

 

[intpz]

I've noticed that my ability to detach from emotions lessens when I haven't had enough sleep, or if I have low blood sugar. My cerebral cortex seems to be more affected by lack of sleep or glucose than the reptilian structures of my brain are. Stress can effect it as well.

For IDBM, I have an automatic reaction to shut off all emotions when threatened. So in situations like that, I operate entirely on logical thought. I have had people try to kill me (by strangulation) and I remember feeling nothing, but analyzing the situation and reacting with a hand twist move I learned in karate.

As for DOLA, that one is a bit more complex. My grandmother died a couple of years ago, we were really close. I've never gone through the standard grief process. I was very sad when I first heard the news, but was quickly able to detach so that I could focus on my work. I went to work the next day and performed as usual. I do think fondly of her often, but I have successfully suspended any negative emotions associated with her death.

Lack of sleep? I do get slight emotional influence when I talk to people when I haven't slept for more than 40 hours or so. Also a bit paranoid about the surroundings if more than 50 or 60 hours. On the other hand, last time that happened was a long time ago, I was less evolved. But hey, I think it makes sense and I would be under the same effects now.

Was stupid in the first place, I had to have energy drinks or coffee, or whatever along those lines. Next time I do it, I'll make sure to have it. I hope.

 

[BigApplePi]

@BigApplePi : Your point is entirely valid, but I do think we all have all 8 functions, it's just that 4 / 8 drain the crap out of us, so we (subconciously?) try to avoid them at all times. Besides, us INTP's have enough trouble with Fe as it is, no need to involve another 4 functions we're terrible at. ;D

I'm going to present an alternate view but I've yet to know what to do with this alternate view in the light of thinking about "Hierarchical Temperament Theory."

INTP's care about thinking. Caring is a feeling. Let me speak for myself and see if it fits you. I care about my thinking. But I don't stop to care that I care. It's just there. If it goes up or down, I pay no attention. If I stop and look at how much I care, that's Fi. It's not a drain or a sweat, it's just blah ... not important. So Fi ~ zero. Wait. Here's more. If someone interrupts me and stops me from what I'm thinking, I can get hot and bothered. But that's Fe. The emotion is about the outside. I still feel it on the inside, but I fail to take a position on how much I'm disturbed. I know how much, sort of, but don't use the emotion to say, "I don't believe in interrupting people." Instead I say, "I'm busy or go ahead I'm listening." This is a little confusing, but I'm guessing it's Fe, not Fi.

 

[redbaron]

There is value in emotion. It's feedback and/or information about something that resonates within you. You shouldn't aim to 'override' it, only to come to terms with, or at very least understand it.

Faced with an emotional situation, I see a few immediate options that are healthy:

1) Do something - whether it be to go for an angry walk/jog/run, talking to someone about the situation, cry, yell, write your feelings down, draw something that expresses how you feel - whatever. If the emotion warrants a response, then by all means don't be afraid to actually respond. It doesn't mean go out of control, but sometimes all you need is a physical or mental outlet.

2) Reflect on your reasons for the emotion. What is really upsetting you? Ask questions of yourself, what is it about this situation that makes me sad or frustrated.

C) Enjoy it - doesn't apply only to 'positive emotions' - there is often humour to be found in sad or disappointing situations, which can lighten your mood.

4) Assess whether or not you can live with it - if it's something that you can get over, move on and be stoic, but don't repress yourself. Often times keeping a clear head will lead you to realizing that it wasn't that bad after all. But if you don't think you can do this, then don't.

The goal of overriding an emotion so that you never feel it again is not a realistic one.

I summise that it is wholly unattainable for any healthy individual to have no emotion. I can't conceive of a person who feels no emotion who doesn't belong in an institution. Stoic yes, emotionless no.

The novel, 'Triage' by Scott Anderson seems to deal with emotion in a pragmatic manner. I thought it dealt with emotion realistically and I found it insightful. The author is a veteran war journalist/correspondent, so I guess that in terms of seeing emotional trauma/facing dangerous situations he's experienced.

 

[Etheri]

If I'm emotional, then it's likely because I've been in existential despair for seven months straight: depersonalized, derealized, verging suicidal, and forced (mostly by my mom) into using my shadow functions just to stay functioning.

'despair - depersonalised - derealised - suicidal' = Feelings, emotions or evidence of such. Talking 100% emotionally detatched, these things don't matter. I'm sorry, but the only logical conclusion is that you do have underlying emotions.

The worst is that everyone I talk to just wants me to be someone else: even my therapist.

I do know that feeling. Yet another emotion. But I know what you mean... People don't like us being thoughtful, realistic. Even if we have emotions, we do our very best not to let them influence us, much less let others see we have them... Sometimes, others includes ourselves.

I realise my advice is majorly flawed, but I say : fuck them. They're idiots. If they cannot appreciate you for who you are, then pay them no mind. Don't do them no harm and don't lash out, there's no point... They're just ignorant sheep, they're not to blame for their ignorance, we can only pity them for all they'll never see.

This may come off as arrogant, but it feels like the blatant truth.

I've noticed that my ability to detach from emotions lessens when I haven't had enough sleep.

^this. All-nighters set me into an emotional state by the next evening. I need my brain aware and awake in order to keep the emotions into their solitary confinement.

There is value in emotion. It's feedback and/or information about something that resonates within you. You shouldn't aim to 'override' it, only to come to terms with, or at very least understand it.

I agree, and I'm trying... but i'm not quite there yet. While I can see it's value as feedback and information, I still have trouble with it 'arguing' with my rational thoughts.

 

[Duxwing]

I don't mean to say that I don't have emotions! Yikes! My mistake. I should have said 'primarily' or 'dominantly' emotional rather than leaving the bare adjective. Nevertheless, I agree; I have emotions, and from time to time I must reflect on them in order to deal with them. Call it what you will- Fi, Si, Pi- but desperate times call for desperate measures.

In addition, although imprisoning your emotions is very useful when you're much stronger than them, trying to clamp down when they're boiling hot is like trying to put your hand over a fire hose: painful, wrongheaded, and unnecessary. It's something even an INTP must eventually face, and the battle is essential; lose, and you will never feel whole. Does that mean become a sap? No, surprsingly, it means reconciling your emotions with your thoughts, thus solving the problem at its root.

Fe integration is a a strange thing.

-Duxwing

 

[Etheri]

I don't mean to say that I don't have emotions! Yikes! My mistake. I should have said 'primarily' or 'dominantly' emotional rather than leaving the bare adjective. Nevertheless, I agree; I have emotions, and from time to time I must reflect on them in order to deal with them. Call it what you will- Fi, Si, Pi- but desperate times call for desperate measures.

In addition, although imprisoning your emotions is very useful when you're much stronger than them, trying to clamp down when they're boiling hot is like trying to put your hand over a fire hose: painful, wrongheaded, and unnecessary. It's something even an INTP must eventually face, and the battle is essential; lose, and you will never feel whole. Does that mean become a sap? No, surprsingly, it means reconciling your emotions with your thoughts, thus solving the problem at its root.

Fe integration is a a strange thing.

-Duxwing

You seem to have the answers to your own questions, which leads to the question : why did you ask? What is truly troubling you?

 

[BigApplePi]

I would 2nd what Etheri said:

You seem to have the answers to your own questions, which leads to the question : why did you ask? What is truly troubling you?

and add:
Emotional pain is like ordinary physical pain. You want to have some of it to let you know something's wrong, but not too much that the pain itself becomes the problem.

So if thoughts can be brought to bear on this, there may be a lot to think about. That's why it might help to bring some more out here so we can reflect.

I think you mentioned an addiction somewhere. It that ongoing or dealt with?

 

[Duxwing]

Right, I may as well start from the beginning. I've had to take some time to compile my thoughts, as it were.

It all started when I was born: I'm growing up in a religious family. They believe that they will live forever in the afterlife, while I, as a reductivist/existentialist/nihilist hybrid do not. This in itself is difficult enough to face as a teenager- I am sixteen- but to face mortality at age seven is something I was likely unprepared for.

And I don't mean in the concrete sense. No, that would be something that I could laugh or brag about: like Churchill said, there is nothing more exhilarating than having someone shoot at you and miss. Rather, I've had to face it head-on, in the abstract because my dad read Grimm's Fairy Tales to me when I was little. One night, I realized that I would die one day, and Sartre was right, it was terrible.

Nevertheless, I was given the religious anaesthetic of the afterlife and sent on my way. However, I was soon asking question after question in my CCD class (my mom wants me to be a Catholic). That turned into looking up all sorts of philosophy and eventually rejecting my belief in any divine/supernatural realm or entities. This was simple enough, but I had missed the implied Platonism that ran rampant throughout my mind.

This brings me to my current problem. I am having extreme difficulty reconciling the abstractness of my mind with the concreteness of the world. For example, I would have to reformulate my entire argument against patriotism and similar ideologies if I held that one should take physical, mental, or emotional action based on a Form or symbol. For clarity's sake, I am a physicalist, and I do not believe in a separate realm of Forms or an immaterial soul. On the other hand, I still have this foolish Will to Truth that has not yet been extinguished, and it demands external, objective justification for my actions upon that which is likewise objective and external. Note that this may be an effect of being INTP, for I have read that finding truth and disseminating it to others can be meaningful for people of this/our/my type; ostensibly, my mother of all people would be supportive-- no such luck. In fact, she finds philosophy and good chunks of psychology (including MBTI) to be utterly wrong, worthless, and a waste of time; while others might not find this painful, her close emotional proximity makes this a nearly unending torment.

However, such concepts as the Soul, Form, and God would tremendously simplify my life. Painstaking reductivism via infinite regress, though, has shown that I would be no better than a fool to accept these ideas. Importantly, my time for reasoning is being severely curtailed by what I call the "Big Brother Effect;" namely, being forced to continuously ignore my philosophical conclusions by authority figures. This is causing me to go into a state of numbness akin to childhood, wherein I am no longer capable of logically evaluating my life and actions and behave much like a sheep.

And speaking of not evaluating my actions, I'm currently in the ending stages of a battle with internet addiction. I got hooked in middle school, likely due to the heavy emotional load of the period (losing my teddy bear, leaving the church, struggling with social skills). In the end, I was the first to realize the pathological nature of this behavior-- a scary thought, considering that my mom is an M.D.-- and had to report and get treatment for it myself. As one might expect, my mom is not a fan of the fact that I'm on Concerta (for my ADD) and Prozac, for my anxiety/depressive state. I surmise, however, that these may be the products of being more P than J-- though this raises the chicken/egg paradox-- and a lack of meaning, social connections, (consider life without anyone to really connect with) and stability of purpose, all of which are in a feedback loop with falling school performance.

To give you a window on how tuned out of me my mom seems to be, consider that while talking to her about how the emotional nature of my posting on this forum about my pain had led some to speculate that I was INFP rather than INTP, she immediately pounced first on me (in effect saying that I was being too much of a sheep with regard to my type) and then on all of MBTI-- perhaps a worse result. Although I was able to "raise my deflector shields" so to speak, and withstand it, I'm sure that such interactions are unhealthy.

Yet this brings me to my final point: irrationality. I am very much afraid of abandoning my current position and becoming a bum. I realize that my will is free, (in the sense that I can undertake voluntary action, even if the motivation for all of it is deterministic) but I would need a good back-up in order to completely abandon my self-concept and reconstitute myself. Despite this fear, however, I am willing to follow my logical conclusions through to their end, (perhaps barring death, for committing suicide in order to achieve a goal is in itself illogical) I just need a good push.

Thus, I conclude my point. Overall, it's been some of the worst time of my entire life. Nothing really compares to knowing full well that you will soon fatally stab yourself in the neck unless you can come up with an adequate reason to live in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1... Fortunately (from the perspective that I may be able to find value and meaning in my existence), I was able to save myself.

-Duxwing

PS I'm also struggling with reconciling relativism and universalism, see above mention of Form.

 

[BigApplePi]

Duxwing. Here is a response to some of your stuff. Don't know how far I'll get.

It all started when I was born: I'm growing up in a religious family. They believe that they will live forever in the afterlife, while I, as a reductivist/existentialist/nihilist hybrid do not. This in itself is difficult enough to face as a teenager- I am sixteen- but to face mortality at age seven is something I was likely unprepared for.

I was born also. My mom was religious; dad was not. I learned to be respectful of the religious side. You can believe as you do, but do you know your mom? Think respect until you do.

my dad read Grimm's Fairy Tales to me when I was little. One night, I realized that I would die one day, and Sartre was right, it was terrible.

I'm not absolutely sure if I will die because I'm not dead yet. Do you want me to let you know if that happens? Anyway here's an analogy. When I go to a movie, I don't think, "How sad. The movie is going to end for sure. Now I can't enjoy it anymore." Instead I go to enjoy the movie and let whatever happens happen.

Nevertheless, I was given the religious anaesthetic of the afterlife and sent on my way. However, I was soon asking question after question in my CCD class (my mom wants me to be a Catholic). That turned into looking up all sorts of philosophy and eventually rejecting my belief in any divine/supernatural realm or entities. This was simple enough, but I had missed the implied Platonism that ran rampant throughout my mind.

I don't know how much freedom you have or how dependent you are, but "when in Rome ...". You can develop your own way as long as you respect other's ways.

This brings me to my current problem. I am having extreme difficulty reconciling the abstractness of my mind with the concreteness of the world. For example, I would have to reformulate my entire argument against patriotism and similar ideologies if I held that one should take physical, mental, or emotional action based on a Form or symbol. For clarity's sake, I am a physicalist, and I do not believe in a separate realm of Forms or an immaterial soul. On the other hand, I still have this foolish Will to Truth that has not yet been extinguished, and it demands external, objective justification for my actions upon that which is likewise objective and external. Note that this may be an effect of being INTP, for I have read that finding truth and disseminating it to others can be meaningful for people of this/our/my type; ostensibly, my mother of all people would be supportive-- no such luck. In fact, she finds philosophy and good chunks of psychology (including MBTI) to be utterly wrong, worthless, and a waste of time; while others might not find this painful, her close emotional proximity makes this a nearly unending torment.

You are caught between the beliefs of your mother and your own. As you grow you can feel free to find those who believe something akin to what you do. You may find people here in this Forum, but the internet is not tangible enough. You need to find people who will befriend you somehow. Are there possibilities? What is available to you?

However, such concepts as the Soul, Form, and God would tremendously simplify my life. Painstaking reductivism via infinite regress, though, has shown that I would be no better than a fool to accept these ideas. Importantly, my time for reasoning is being severely curtailed by what I call the "Big Brother Effect;" namely, being forced to continuously ignore my philosophical conclusions by authority figures. This is causing me to go into a state of numbness akin to childhood, wherein I am no longer capable of logically evaluating my life and actions and behave much like a sheep.

Did you say you were sixteen years old? I say hang in there until you mature enough to gain more freedom.

And speaking of not evaluating my actions, I'm currently in the ending stages of a battle with internet addiction. I got hooked in middle school, likely due to the heavy emotional load of the period (losing my teddy bear, leaving the church, struggling with social skills). In the end, I was the first to realize the pathological nature of this behavior-- a scary thought, considering that my mom is an M.D.-- and had to report and get treatment for it myself. As one might expect, my mom is not a fan of the fact that I'm on Concerta (for my ADD) and Prozac, for my anxiety/depressive state. I surmise, however, that these may be the products of being more P than J-- though this raises the chicken/egg paradox-- and a lack of meaning, social connections, (consider life without anyone to really connect with) and stability of purpose, all of which are in a feedback loop with falling school performance.

I say that teddy bear was a holding onto childhood for comfort. Don't forget its symbolic meaning. Now the teddy bear can be inside you. Look for it and it can be your comfort and strength.

To give you a window on how tuned out of me my mom seems to be, consider that while talking to her about how the emotional nature of my posting on this forum about my pain had led some to speculate that I was INFP rather than INTP, she immediately pounced first on me (in effect saying that I was being too much of a sheep with regard to my type) and then on all of MBTI-- perhaps a worse result. Although I was able to "raise my deflector shields" so to speak, and withstand it, I'm sure that such interactions are unhealthy.

Hey I'm just an internet poster, not a counselor so I hardly know what to say to that. I'm just surprised you turned to your mom. Apparently you are in conflict because what she thinks matters to you yet what you think matters too.

Yet this brings me to my final point: irrationality. I am very much afraid of abandoning my current position and becoming a bum. I realize that my will is free, (in the sense that I can undertake voluntary action, even if the motivation for all of it is deterministic) but I would need a good back-up in order to completely abandon my self-concept and reconstitute myself. Despite this fear, however, I am willing to follow my logical conclusions through to their end, (perhaps barring death, for committing suicide in order to achieve a goal is in itself illogical) I just need a good push.

You don't have to become a bum. You have your current environment to use to develop. Use it and see what happens. Sooner or later you can develop the strength to make larger decisions that will take you away from dependence. Do you follow what I'm saying?

PS I'm also struggling with reconciling relativism and universalism, see above mention of Form.

That statement is so general I don't know what you mean.

 

[Etheri]

Spoiler

Right, I may as well start from the beginning. I've had to take some time to compile my thoughts, as it were.

It all started when I was born: I'm growing up in a religious family. They believe that they will live forever in the afterlife, while I, as a reductivist/existentialist/nihilist hybrid do not. This in itself is difficult enough to face as a teenager- I am sixteen- but to face mortality at age seven is something I was likely unprepared for.

And I don't mean in the concrete sense. No, that would be something that I could laugh or brag about: like Churchill said, there is nothing more exhilarating than having someone shoot at you and miss. Rather, I've had to face it head-on, in the abstract because my dad read Grimm's Fairy Tales to me when I was little. One night, I realized that I would die one day, and Sartre was right, it was terrible.

Nevertheless, I was given the religious anaesthetic of the afterlife and sent on my way. However, I was soon asking question after question in my CCD class (my mom wants me to be a Catholic). That turned into looking up all sorts of philosophy and eventually rejecting my belief in any divine/supernatural realm or entities. This was simple enough, but I had missed the implied Platonism that ran rampant throughout my mind.

This brings me to my current problem. I am having extreme difficulty reconciling the abstractness of my mind with the concreteness of the world. For example, I would have to reformulate my entire argument against patriotism and similar ideologies if I held that one should take physical, mental, or emotional action based on a Form or symbol. For clarity's sake, I am a physicalist, and I do not believe in a separate realm of Forms or an immaterial soul. On the other hand, I still have this foolish Will to Truth that has not yet been extinguished, and it demands external, objective justification for my actions upon that which is likewise objective and external. Note that this may be an effect of being INTP, for I have read that finding truth and disseminating it to others can be meaningful for people of this/our/my type; ostensibly, my mother of all people would be supportive-- no such luck. In fact, she finds philosophy and good chunks of psychology (including MBTI) to be utterly wrong, worthless, and a waste of time; while others might not find this painful, her close emotional proximity makes this a nearly unending torment.

However, such concepts as the Soul, Form, and God would tremendously simplify my life. Painstaking reductivism via infinite regress, though, has shown that I would be no better than a fool to accept these ideas. Importantly, my time for reasoning is being severely curtailed by what I call the "Big Brother Effect;" namely, being forced to continuously ignore my philosophical conclusions by authority figures. This is causing me to go into a state of numbness akin to childhood, wherein I am no longer capable of logically evaluating my life and actions and behave much like a sheep.

And speaking of not evaluating my actions, I'm currently in the ending stages of a battle with internet addiction. I got hooked in middle school, likely due to the heavy emotional load of the period (losing my teddy bear, leaving the church, struggling with social skills). In the end, I was the first to realize the pathological nature of this behavior-- a scary thought, considering that my mom is an M.D.-- and had to report and get treatment for it myself. As one might expect, my mom is not a fan of the fact that I'm on Concerta (for my ADD) and Prozac, for my anxiety/depressive state. I surmise, however, that these may be the products of being more P than J-- though this raises the chicken/egg paradox-- and a lack of meaning, social connections, (consider life without anyone to really connect with) and stability of purpose, all of which are in a feedback loop with falling school performance.

To give you a window on how tuned out of me my mom seems to be, consider that while talking to her about how the emotional nature of my posting on this forum about my pain had led some to speculate that I was INFP rather than INTP, she immediately pounced first on me (in effect saying that I was being too much of a sheep with regard to my type) and then on all of MBTI-- perhaps a worse result. Although I was able to "raise my deflector shields" so to speak, and withstand it, I'm sure that such interactions are unhealthy.

Yet this brings me to my final point: irrationality. I am very much afraid of abandoning my current position and becoming a bum. I realize that my will is free, (in the sense that I can undertake voluntary action, even if the motivation for all of it is deterministic) but I would need a good back-up in order to completely abandon my self-concept and reconstitute myself. Despite this fear, however, I am willing to follow my logical conclusions through to their end, (perhaps barring death, for committing suicide in order to achieve a goal is in itself illogical) I just need a good push.

Thus, I conclude my point. Overall, it's been some of the worst time of my entire life. Nothing really compares to knowing full well that you will soon fatally stab yourself in the neck unless you can come up with an adequate reason to live in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1... Fortunately (from the perspective that I may be able to find value and meaning in my existence), I was able to save myself.

-Duxwing

PS I'm also struggling with reconciling relativism and universalism, see above mention of Form.

A few thoughts : You seem to care about fitting in, feeling connected. I understand, I struggle with the same problem, probably almost every day. Truth is, your family won't give you what you need and you know it. Get over it, find understanding in diffrent places. Guess what, the easiest place to find it is the internet. (Btw, is an internet addiction honestly your concern when you're on meds, your view of the world is troubled and your family relations are sketchy? No, hell, I'd say it's probably a relief. You can deal with it later if need be. If your hobby was torturing animals I might be concerned, but internet addiction... )

Back to parents. They love you, fairly unconditionally. They might deny it from themselves and everyone else for years, but they do. That's 'bout all you get for granted, everything else... forget it. They'll probably never understand you, and if you wanted to argue and fight about philosophical ideas for the rest of your lives you easily could. Don't bother, just think your own thing, because here's the truth : Most people don't want to think. Don't ask me why, I think it scares them. Most people simply prefer to be ignorant and do as they're told. They like being sheep, but they don't even realise it. Anyways, think your own thing, and let them be ignorant. It keeps them happy, and you out of trouble. You won't convince them - so rationally there's no reason to keep pressing on.

At your age, my most powerful tool to survival and / or happiness was probably 'my second life'. Alike minded people on the internet which I could talk to when home got too much -yet again-. I'd soon learned that by venting online every so often, I could simply ignore and numb anything that went on home. As far as philosophical ideas go : I cannot give you purpose or meaning. You and I both know that it does not matter, so just do as you will. Enjoy yourself, because, even if that doesn't matter either, you like it - so why not?

Don't see this as rude or mean, I don't mean it offensive, but your situation doesn't sound that bad at all. Actually, you sound like you have a rather normal and, in all honesty, good life going on. So you're 16 and your parents don't understand you... So you have trouble with solving philosophical debates that have been going on for thousands of years... Doesn't seem too bad to me. Now sure, me saying this doesn't make it any bloody easier, but my point is that it's all about perception. While to us, philosophical understanding is more important, and the inability to connect with others is more real than it is to other people, we all have our own problems. These are not first world problems, nor anything you cannot cope or deal with, so why won't you?

It's not your situation that's bringing you down, it's your perception. And since you're a thinker, why not just change your perception through thought? You can solve your own problems by doing what you do best... Lifehack#1.

 

[Da Blob]

I also was an atheist during my adolescence. I grew out of it. These philosophies that one has allegiance to are just collections of symbols with no real correlation to the reality of life, that which is beyond symbolism.

If all one does is think about the proper philosophical manner in which to live life, one is not really living life, one is thinking about maybe, someday mustering the courage to live life.

I do not mean to seem to be harsh or judgmental, but those who seem to enjoy life the most are not philosophers that have to put everything in a box, but those who enjoy simple pleasures and the necessities of life. One is more likely to see 100 smiles on the faces of children or primitives for every single smile on the face of a philosopher.

What possible use is there for a philosophy that is not a source of joy?

I am sorry to hear about the environment of your home and the added challenge of ADD. However, the philosophies you now claim as your own, are pretty much just the opinions of some losers, IMO. Sure they make a certain amount of sense, but there are other, more optimistic philosophies that make sense as well, if considered with an open mind.

In fact, she finds philosophy and good chunks of psychology (including MBTI) to be utterly wrong, worthless, and a waste of time; while others might not find this painful, her close emotional proximity makes this a nearly unending torment.

From her POV your mother is correct, while from your POV you are correct. The challenge is understanding how both of you are correct.

This brings me to my current problem. I am having extreme difficulty reconciling the abstractness of my mind with the concreteness of the world.

It is a matter of adaptation. We think as an adaptive process, as a response to concrete changes in a concrete world. We think to solve problems real or imagined.

Every person has a philosophy, a style of thinking and some philosophies are more useful than others for solving problems, depending on the individual. However, what if a philosophy is not really all that useful - with few day to day applications? Should it not be abandoned or modified to align with the concrete problems that life imposes on every young human?

What happens when a person changes his or her mind is more often a good outcome than bad, this is especially true for young people whose brains have just recently matured and grown to adult size.

Could I suggest that the solution to the current problem, as well as many in the future is simply a matter of changing one's mind to better fit reality? There is no profit in allegiance to abstractions that have no therapeutic value. One just has to relearn, perhaps, how to go about changing one's mind (?)

Anyway, please feel free to PM me, if there are details you wish to keep private. I am a 57 year old counselor, and I can offer advice in response to specific questions...

EDIT: Considering a new truth can be very helpful. If one is trapped in an objective POV, then perhaps an understanding of the genesis and evolution of POVs can be enlightening. Personally, I have found the work of Jean Piaget to be very valid concerning the workings of genetic epistemology. The epistemology of many philosophies, seem to lack validity when compared to Piaget's, IMO.

 

[Duxwing]

Sorry for being so slow, your posts took quite a while to read!

So, let's start with the addiction. Indeed, the internet is a place where my real life, and all its problems, are moot to the points of discussion. It lets me exist as, and pardon my poetry, a being of pure thought raised high unto the heavens of logic-- a flying knight of the mind. I take my lumps with pride, and after licking my wounds, I always come back for more. It was exhilarating compared to what we'd often do in school. More than that, I had a sense of belonging there: my teammates in video games, my opponents in debates, they were all people with whom I could identify and from whom I took advice. Unfortunately, I got so sucked in that my real life got even worse, and therapy was necessary.

So they took away my computer, and I was faced with reality. Nothing to think about, nothing to intuit, just my perceptions. Let me tell you, it wasn't, and isn't, fun. I soon fell into existential crisis, the pain from, and progression of, which I dulled with the internet. Unfortunately, I was only delaying the inevitable. The dark night of existential despair soon took me; death was the only way out. As I raised the knife to my throat, I contemplated one last time: was this a good idea? And I realized that suicide would bring not relief, but nothingness.

So now I'm stuck here, as far as I know, destined for torture unto death. The sense of disconnection, isolation, derealization, all of them are their own little agonies dulled only by Prozac. The existential angst, too, was there, everpresent and manifesting itself in horrifying mental images of Pennywise the Dancing clown.
A few times I thought that I had snapped, that my reason had left me; that I would be left as a sheep among the flock. No such bittersweet luck. Though I sometimes fall into pain and run to the internet, it seems as though the meds are working, and the world of phonies will consume my mind.

As for abandoning philosophies that don't bring me joy or utility, I don't understand how they could be 'abandoned' in the first place. For example, left-wing economic philosophy may not help me figure out if I ought to ask a girl out, but it still makes sense within its axioms (which may be true or not). Likewise, if I had a philosophy that animals exist to be tortured, then no matter what my sick kicks I got from it, if that were true, then the philosophy would be true. Do you see where I'm going with this? I don't decide based on how I feel, I decide based on what's true; however, moral relativism, nihilism, existentialism, et. al such philosophies-- which I accept wholeheartedly-- make doing so very difficult.

While it can be said that deciding based on what is logical is in itself a preference, there is quite literally no distinct alternative. I could do what feels right, but if being logical feels right, then there is no distinction between the two-- especially if an option "feels" right while conflicting with my logical conclusions. For example, it might "feel" right for me to keep the lights on, but if I were to listen to my other feelings as well, I would also "feel" that doing so would waste energy. Thus, I would logically conclude that I should use the lights only when I need them; however, I'm faced with the paradox that doing so would not feel right. Hence my despair in failure to find a way out of this mess.

Again, excuse my poetry, but I think you'll like this:

So I come to you, the last days of my reason still burning bright against the void. Perhaps you all can help me find a light.

-Duxwing

 

[Da Blob]

It seems as if you have decided to paint your Self into a corner, leaving one with few options. This is, of course, a delusion for all one has to do, is to walk across the nice wet paint of abstractions and learn to deal with real life - the stuff no one bothers to write about in a book or teach classes about in school.

The very fact that one has not been taught to deal with the realities of life should be a cause of angst, not some abstract contrived by philosophers as a source of amusement.

One would hope that one realizes that the pain one experiences is the result of making mistakes - for if one were perfect in one's thoughts and action, there would be no cause for pain.

How difficult would it be to confess imperfection? "Gee, I'm miserable, I must have believed and acted upon a lie at some point in my childhood" or something similar. It is good to hold the truth in high regard, but to discount all feelings as falsehoods except the single feeling that some fact is true is not an attitude that can lead to growth.

Just do something new. If one continues to search in the same old sameold for solutions, one is unlikely to find what one needs on the 99th cycle, if one did not notice it on the first dozen cycles.

I know for some, change in Self or environment, is viewed as threat first and only afterwards perhaps considered as opportunity. However, If one desires opportunity one may have to sort amongst old discarded threats for missed opportunities.

Please, forgive me for not agreeing with you, but that, seemingly, is no way to offer hope.

 

[Duxwing]

"I know for some, change in Self or environment, is viewed as threat first and only afterwards perhaps considered as opportunity. However, If one desires opportunity one may have to sort amongst old discarded threats for missed opportunities."

That's very wise. Not to knock on your grammar, but clean that phrase up and that'll make an aphorism of similar quality to the one in your sig. Regarding its message, though, I'm not sure if I discarded any idea worth keeping, but I'll check. *reaches into pile* Hmmmm, let's see here, antimatter rays, no... rail-gun transportation, no... religion, HECK NO... love, *shudders*, been there, done that. It seems like all of these were discarded for a reason: they were dangerous, foolish, or dangerously foolish.

-Duxwing

 

[Da Blob]

"I know for some, change in Self or environment, is viewed as threat first and only afterwards perhaps considered as opportunity. However, If one desires opportunity one may have to sort amongst old discarded threats for missed opportunities."

That's very wise. Not to knock on your grammar, but clean that phrase up and that'll make an aphorism of similar quality to the one in your sig.

Please show me how it should have been phrased

Regarding its message, though, I'm not sure if I discarded any idea worth keeping, but I'll check. *reaches into pile* Hmmmm, let's see here, antimatter rays, no... rail-gun transportation, no... religion, HECK NO... love, *shudders*, been there, done that. It seems like all of these were discarded for a reason: they were dangerous, foolish, or dangerously foolish.

-Duxwing

Why should one contemplating suicide worry about risky behavior or dangerous thought? It would seem that one would embrace risk instead, if only in desperation. There are ways to dismantle and reconstruct self, without destruction of life. One of the more popular methods is called 'growing up' and can involve Self-actualization as described by Maslow et alia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_actualization



EDIT: Afterthought
"There is Hope revealed by the confession of Fear"

 

[BigApplePi]

Duxwing. I'm impressed with the way you wriite and I suppose what is called intuitive expression. Naturally (for me) all these abstractions lead me to think of the opposite.

I wonder what you would say if you spoke on specifics as I guess an ISTP might. Like what did your mother say today? What did you say to her? Same for papa. Did you empty the garbage and what is your feeling about doing or not doing that? What I'm looking for here is "grounding" less too much floating on air. Doesn't require answers to those specific Q's, but any kind of specifics.

That reminds me of a saying:

"Neurotics build castles in the air; psychotics live in them; psychiatrists collect the rent."

 

[Duxwing]

DaBlob, with regard to phrasing, I can't really tell you how to put it; otherwise, it wouldn't be your aphorism. I was just pointing out that it had potential. If you intend to analyse my mind by seeing my edits, just say the word and you'll have them; otherwise, I'm feeling too tired and blue to do it for its own sake. With regard to risk, I think I've fallen into the trap of "perfectionism or death" in the literal sense when it comes to my philosophy. I've heard that perfectionism can be a result of low self-esteem, but I don't really think about myself too much anyway; in other words, I'm introverted but not self-centered, for when I analyze myself, I view myself as an object (to avoid subjective bias, also, I don't think that there are abstract souls).

(no sarcasm) Wow, BigApplePi, thanks. I feel appreciated instead of belittled (mom, grrrrrr). With regard to "grounding" myself, I'm rather afraid of doing it. I doubt that I'll do it correctly and think that I will live a meaningless existence if I do. Neurotic? Perhaps, but true nonetheless. I think it stems from my rejecting religion at age 13: I must now live with more skepticism than I ever thought possible on subjects ranging from science to theology, philosophy to math, and even interpersonal relationships. For me, trusting someone on Truth without evidence again is ludicrous; I am forever a skeptic.

-Duxwing

 

[Da Blob]

I was not being sarcastic, but I was offering a bit of a challenge. By putting the thought into your own words it becomes your thought and not mine...

 

[BigApplePi]

(no sarcasm) Wow, BigApplePi, thanks. I feel appreciated instead of belittled (mom, grrrrrr). With regard to "grounding" myself, I'm rather afraid of doing it. I doubt that I'll do it correctly and think that I will live a meaningless existence if I do. Neurotic? Perhaps, but true nonetheless. I think it stems from my rejecting religion at age 13: I must now live with more skepticism than I ever thought possible on subjects ranging from science to theology, philosophy to math, and even interpersonal relationships. For me, trusting someone on Truth without evidence again is ludicrous; I am forever a skeptic.
-Duxwing

Hmm. Interesting position. "Grounding" is a term I've heard other people use. I suppose it means attachment to something tangible and real. To me that makes sense because now I have a non-skeptical place to stand.

Let me tell you how I handle skepticism because there is nothing wrong with it. I have my position; other people have theirs (you can compare you and your mom's). Either is okay and it's interesting to figure where the differences come from because that means a different person.

This may be indirect, but my background is mathematics where one proves things. But these "proofs" are based on axioms. One accepts those axioms (lack of skepticism) and goes to the proofs (also lack of skepticism). No problem. I always keep in mind those axioms or assumptions and if those assumptions leads to a silly or erroneous results, then I can discard the assumptions.

My guess is you are living with skepticism because you have not firmed up your "proofs." Keep at it and you will eventually come to conclusions you can live with.

 

[Santiago]

I barely feel emotions, I can feel them, but it seems almost like they are behind a wall, or like if it was from a distant memory. I can not get myself to truly feel sad or disappointed, and I have never felt what happiness is like. So, to answer your question, it is POSSIBLE to completely override your ability for your emotions to effect your decisions, but I can not tell you how, I can only tell you that it creates a void inside you that causes you to teeter on the edge of insanity.