Is that really Si?

[snafupants]

Since reading Psychological Types, INTJ type descriptions, and Si overviews, I have been consistently flummoxed at MBTI's inability to explain how an INTJ (Ni-Te-Fi) could have an excellent memory. It's said by many experts offhandedly without really weighing the applicable cognitive functions. The "memory cognitive function" is most likely Si but INTJs do not have Si in their functional stack. So three things could be going on: INTJs do not, in fact, have excellent memories; other functions aside from Si explain memory; or, finally, MBTI is inaccurate in describing ecological realities. It seems that Dario Nardi's research provisionally shows the second option to hold water. Apparently Te, by demonstrating C3 area activity, has something to do with what MBTI characterizes as Si. Now, I'm thinking that Socionics may have gotten the de facto INTJ (ILI) cognitive functions or information elements correct. If somehow you could keep the Socionics' ILI information elements' order and overlay the MBTI functions...that's what I feel an INTJ in MBTI should be - the INTp Socionics' functional stack of Ni, Te, Si, and Fe. Any thoughts?

Extraverted Thinking (Te)

Te types:
Show most efficient use of mental energy as they rely on evidence-based decision-making.
Rely on T3, O1, C3 and Fp1. Tend to use other areas very little, even on tasks that would normally invoke them.
Rely on measurably sensory information
Focus on goals and stimulated by task completion and error correction.
Tend to move to action before accurate or what-if processing, so quick efficiency can become a pitfall.
Show high activity in F8, which handles deeply felt personal values, often expressed negatively.
Female Te types show more diverse brain activity and are more responsive to social feedback.

C3 Factual Storekeeper
Remember a fact.
Retrieve a memory that contains specific information such as date or time.
Recall a sequence of action steps.
Prepare to move your body's right side
Skillfully draw charts, tables, and diagrams
Attend to sensations on the right side of your body.

http://personalityjunkie.com/the-intj/ - OK, Junkie, where does that "impressive" memory come from vis-a-vis MBTI cognitive functions?!

INTJs often present as austere and impassive, displaying little as far as variability of emotion or expression. Exuding an air of learnedness and erudition, they may sometimes be perceived as intellectual snobs or elitists. Perceptions of arrogance or aloofness notwithstanding, their status as intellectuals is typically well-founded. Not only do INTJs sport the highest collective IQ of all types, but they are generally well-informed, displaying broad-ranging knowledge and impressive memories.

At any rate, most of these claims are empirically vindicated in Nardi's EEG research, particularly as regards Fi and Te.

As left-brained masterminds, INTJs wield logic and language like swords. They sport impressive vocabularies and precision in articulation.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

I think this is @EyeSeeCold territory. Socionics got the functions correct, amirite?

Either way, not everyone has Si to use. What else functions as memory in those who don't have it? Ni? One would assume that memory must be an introverted function, right? (Other than things like the concept of muscle memory, a la Se).

 

[snafupants]

I think this is @EyeSeeCold territory. Socionics got the functions correct, amirite?

That's the contention I hold, at least with Socionics INTp. Socionics basically makes lead perceivers, based on the first function, actual letter perceivers (INTp). You have to remember, however, that Socionics' information elements and MBTI cognitive functions are not interchangeable. Some are more similar than others - for instance, Te is analogous in both systems but Si is pretty different. In Socionics, Si seems more about physical comfort/somatic acumen than memory per se.

1. Introverted Sensing
SLIs are naturally good at knowing what kinds of activities and stimuli will produce which sensations and physical states in themselves and the people around them. They are highly sensitive to sensations of internal discomfort and dissonance, or when someone or something is aesthetically out of place. They usually take quick action to remove the discomfort, dissonance, or misplacement so that things "feel right." They are attracted to material (concrete) objects which produce the "right" sensations and physical states, such as stereo systems which produce the best sounds or clothes that produce the best feelings either through their pleasant texture and ease of use or through their aesthetic appeal. They dislike it when others deny them of pleasurable material objects and can get quite possessive and territorial when claiming or re-claiming them.

 

[snafupants]

I think this is @EyeSeeCold territory. Socionics got the functions correct, amirite?

Either way, not everyone has Si to use. What else functions as memory in those who don't have it? Ni? One would assume that memory must be an introverted function, right? (Other than things like the concept of muscle memory, a la Se).

@thehabitatdoctor

Well, let's keep this open-ended. Aside from Socionics, which can't really help rectify MBTI anyway, how else can the noteworthy memory of INTJs be explained, especially given the lack of Si in an INTJs functional stack? Am I putting too much focus on Si and memory? I'm not sure...Socionics ILI has some elements of MBTI Si in its description of extraverted logic, which focuses on factual accuracy. Sounds MBTI INTP, right?

2. Extraverted Logic
ILIs place great importance on factual accuracy and a basic understanding of how things work. They may be inclined to look down on or pity people who consistently demonstrate ignorance of what they consider to be simple, essential facts. It is often also very important to ILIs that a person's beliefs account for any new factual information.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Maybe memory 'flows' through the rubber band (inferior function/anchoring) relationship of N and S regardless of whether they're dom and inferior or aux and tertiary? Synergy? Would this show up anywhere in Nardi's work?

Also, my interpretation of Si, by Socionics definition:

Spoiler

^Those shoes would totes get me laid.

 

[snafupants]

Maybe memory 'flows' through the rubber band (inferior function/anchoring) relationship of N and S regardless of whether they're dom and inferior or aux and tertiary? Synergy? Would this show up anywhere in Nardi's work?

I had a remarkably similar thought but I couldn't quite do justice to it with words.

It's one of those things that only makes sense when you intuitively ponder it. Provided something like that hypothesis is true, where does that leave Si in MBTI?!

If functions can be mimicked...where does it stop?

Also, my interpretation of Si, by Socionics definition:

Spoiler

^Those shoes would totes get me laid.

I know...Socionics Si is like this bizarro Boy George Se in MBTI speak.

Haha, where the fuck did you find that Dennis Rodman-like picture?

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

It's one of those things that only makes sense when you intuitively ponder it. Provided something like that hypothesis is true, where does that leave Si in MBTI?!

Fuck, I don't know

If functions can be mimicked...where does it stop?

I believe there's a theory that states each person is actually two individuals based on various regions of the brain that are used vs. unused, though I can't put a name on it for the life of me and am therefore honestly slightly embarassed to have brought it up. But hey, wth...

Haha, where the fuck did you find that Dennis Rodman-like picture?

Just a Google image search for "pimp". Not revealing anything that spectacular about my dark side.

 

[Words]

I've mentioned this in the past and I'll mention it again. Memory is not limited to Si, Pi is the memory function. Both Si and Ni are memory functions. Why? Because Pi is the perspective function. Ni and Si are all about perspectives or pictures. Pi creates the picture or the perspective to the inputs that Pe has scanned and Jx functions have processed. A memory is intrinsically a mental image, a picture. Te simply assists.

 

[snafupants]

I've mentioned this in the past and I'll mention it again. Memory is not limited to Si,

Yeah, I just mentioned that too.

I'm not that impressed, however, with MBTI cognitive functions overall.

Pi is the memory function. Both Si and Ni are memory functions.

Let's see if the neuroscience research rebuts or supports that claim.

By that logic, though, wouldn't Ti-Ne also be a collective "memory function"?

Why? Because Pi is the perspective function. Ni and Si are all about perspectives or pictures. Pi creates the picture or the perspective to the inputs that Pe has scanned and Jx functions have processed. A memory is intrinsically a mental image, a picture. Te simply assists.

Actually, the above data relates to Te.

 

[compulsiverambler]

How did they determine which types the participants were?

The hippocampus is responsible for both remembering and predicting, and you can't do the latter without the former. I found it interesting that Nardi said Si types do a lot of forecasting, usually associated with Ni, and favour T6 which handles both predictions and symbolism.

 

[BigApplePi]

I have been consistently flummoxed at MBTI's inability to explain how an INTJ (Ni-Te-Fi) could have an excellent memory.

Excellent question with all the points brought out including what Words said.

I'm a babe in the woods here but have to record what went through my head before I lose it (irreverent memory for me).

1. Yes memory could be about other things than Si. Si is conscious memory. Suppose memory for an INTJ came from the unconscious directly to consciousness for the Ni Te mentioned.

2. The MBTI (I don't know socionics) doesn't work well enough to explain.

3. Yes INTJ not having excellent memories is a possibility. Why? Because memories are focused and extremely so. Memories are for particular things. INxJ's would have good memories for their Ni theme. They may have terrible memories for things not fitting into their vision. I suspect this is the case with two INxJ's* I have experienced on this Forum: ProxyAmenRa and Lyra. I can't test that because both refuse to address at all contrary views to their themes. Try a contrary view on them and they will run away screaming.
__________________________

*Perhaps I made a mistake by calling them by name. Not sure. At the time I thought of these issues as being open and thought if they happened on this message either might want to call me on it claiming I was FOS. Mentioning their names was not meant to offend. As I said I thought the issues were not closed. How does one close differences? By agreeing to disagree? INTP never close because of Ne. Perhaps a better way is to use Fe and talk to them directly. But the issues were difficult and I mistakenly thought ongoing. So I didn't use Fe here on this particular thread. This thread is about Si. Not to forget that. Perhaps I was carried away by Si.

 

[snafupants]

Excellent question with all the points brought out including what Words said.

I'm a babe in the woods here but have to record what went through my head before I lose it (irreverent memory for me).

1. Yes memory could be about other things than Si. Si is conscious memory. Suppose memory for an INTJ came from the unconscious directly to consciousness for the Ni Te mentioned.

2. The MBTI (I don't know socionics) doesn't work well enough to explain.

3. Yes INTJ not having excellent memories is a possibility. Why? Because memories are focused and extremely so. Memories are for particular things. INxJ's would have good memories for their Ni theme. They may have terrible memories for things not fitting into their vision. I suspect this is the case with two INxJ's I experienced on this Forum: ProxyAmenRa and Lyra. I can't test that because both refuse to address at all contrary views to their themes. Try a contrary view on them and they will run away screaming.

@BigApplePi

I'm going with number two. Strict interpretation of the INTJ's functions does not reveal any memory component, although the neuroscience behind the functions apparently does betray something akin to Si (C3 Factual Storekeeper). There's something going on, as evidenced by EEG research on Te, and MBTI isn't clever enough to pick it up; Socionics' take on extraverted logic seems superior in this regard because it effectively couples Si and Te. But basically, the research behind the MBTI functions provides a richer picture than the functions themselves, which shows how impoverished the theoretical underpinnings of MBTI really are; the model is playing catchup. The best argument one could make is to posit that Ni-Se is taking in and remembering data. Such an interpretation, however, departs from the individual function view of MBTI and strains credibility; such an interpretation also proves at variance with neuroscience and the purported uniqueness of Si. It's a problem when other functions can do exactly what Si can do. Apropos MBTI, Si always seemed like a bullshit function. Everyone uses Se and Si...you need to in order to survive. I like Socionics' Si because it presents a special behavior that not everyone prominently showcases.

 

[snafupants]

The hippocampus is responsible for both remembering and predicting, and you can't do the latter without the former.

I disagree. You could correctly predict someone would hit a home run without any foreknowledge of that batter. That's luck. Additionally, an extemporaneous application of odds and wits could lead to prediction without previous experience. Moreover, there are people with Alzheimer's who can still reason without remembering how to tie their shoes.

 

[snafupants]

1. Yes memory could be about other things than Si. Si is conscious memory. Suppose memory for an INTJ came from the unconscious directly to consciousness for the Ni Te mentioned.

@BigApplePi

It's artificial to contort MBTI cognitive functions to deviate from general human psychology. People learn in a certain way. When I read off six numbers to an INTP or INTJ (totally different functions), they encode those numbers consciously and in basically the same manner. Another thing is that the neuroscience research refutes this unconscious memory theory and Te operates really quickly in the moment. Also, how would you go about dis/proving your theory?

 

[compulsiverambler]

I disagree. You could correctly predict someone would hit a home run without any foreknowledge of that batter.
That's luck.

But not without any knowledge of home runs. Also, whether an imagined scenario is a prediction or not, has nothing to do with whether it proves correct. If you imagine a scenario with a sense of anticipation of it possibly happening, then it's a prediction, even if inaccurate. If you imagine a scenario while daydreaming or as a semi-random "brain fart", without considering in that moment how likely it is to actually happen, then even if it does happen, you didn't predict it (though you might interpret it that way afterwards).

Moreover, there are people with Alzheimer's who can still reason without remembering how to tie their shoes.

People with Alzheimer's can do or remember something one minute that they couldn't a minute beforehand. They can also remember one piece of information but not a similar piece of information, or use one type of memory but not another, at any given time.

 

[BigApplePi]

@snafupants

@BigApplePi

It's artificial to contort MBTI cognitive functions to deviate from general human psychology. People learn in a certain way. When I read off six numbers to an INTP or INTJ (totally different functions), they encode those numbers consciously and in basically the same manner.

Suppose we try to hold to the MBTI POV. MBTI is about temperament which is broad behavior, not the particular number encoding you mention. We do see INTP's and INTJ's as receiving those numbers in the same way. But that is only momentarily. An INTP might stop and wonder about what's happening. If he stops, that Si because it's conscious and held. The INTJ dismisses stopping and is not interested. He's aware of the numbers for the moment, but immediately drops them because they have no interest. That's his temperament. It's the different between a light flash and gazing.

I hope I'm not rationalizing too much.

Another thing is that the neuroscience research refutes this unconscious memory theory and Te operates really quickly in the moment. Also, how would you go about dis/proving your theory?

I don't follow this. Expand?

 

[snafupants]

Also, whether an imagined scenario is a prediction or not, has nothing to do with whether it proves correct.

Which is why I called it luck.

 

[snafupants]

Suppose we try to hold to the MBTI POV. MBTI is about temperament which is broad behavior, not the particular number encoding you mention.

I agree that overly specific definitions of cognitive functions should be eschewed in favor of broader assessments. For instance, I find it best to see Si as more temperate or concentrated than Se; it doesn't help me to conceive of Si as memory, because that doesn't have a direct foil in Se and conceiving of Si in such an obsessive-compulsive way airmails the information processing landscape of MBTI to some degree. I favor the lifestyle-like definitions of Si and Se from Personality Junkie over Dario Nardi's pseudo-information processing explication, which isn't supported by his own neuroscience research.

 

[Paladin-X]

I do not see Si as a function of memory in and of itself. Every type can have good memory regardless if they have Si or not.

Si types tend to be adept at rote memorization and repetition and thus would appear to be a function of memory.

I find Se types rely on visual memory. I can almost see their mental pictures by their hand gestures as they explain something.

I suspect, Ni uses internal symbolic imagery or something to store information. Though I would agree that it is probably also as a result of using Te as a supporting function.

 

[snafupants]

I do not see Si as a function of memory in and of itself. Every type can have good memory regardless if they have Si or not.

Si types tend to be adept at rote memorization and repetition and thus would appear to be a function of memory.

I find Se types rely on visual memory. I can almost see their mental pictures by their hand gestures as they explain something.

I suspect, Ni uses internal symbolic imagery or something to store information. Though I would agree that it is probably also as a result of using Te as a supporting function.

I agree with everything but the last bit. An INFJ uses Ni-Fe and they still have "internal symbolic imagery" without Te in their functional stack...

 

[Paladin-X]

I agree with everything but the last bit. An INFJ uses Ni-Fe and they still have "internal symbolic imagery" without Te in their functional stack...

I suppose what I was getting at is that INTJ factual memory is enhanced due to Te. Or at least memory recall is enhanced by Te, due to its mental efficiency*.

I find that INFJ memory recall is better when something jogs it with specific details.

*Mental efficiency as noted by Dario Nardi in Neuroscience of Personality.

 

[redbaron]

I'm close to an INTJ, her memory is definitely not powerful. She can remember select things, but in terms of general memory she's definitely not great. I find that when it comes to information in general, like numbers, recipes, lists, lyrics - whatever - I'm way more capable than she is of recalling the information.

I know one other INTJ, not very close, but same deal.

 

[snafupants]

I suppose what I was getting at is that INTJ factual memory is enhanced due to Te. Or at least memory recall is enhanced by Te, due to its mental efficiency*.

I find that INFJ memory recall is better when something jogs it with specific details.

*Mental efficiency as noted by Dario Nardi in Neuroscience of Personality.

@Paladin-X

I see. Linking factual memory with Ni-Te seems more reasonable.

Yeah, I recall (haha) Nardi correlating Ni, Te, Fi with zen-like states, mental efficiency, and focused listening/ranking, respectively.

Haha, Nardi basically lumped Se (tennis-hop) and Ne together as radically inefficient.

I'm close to an INTJ, her memory is definitely not powerful. She can remember select things, but in terms of general memory she's definitely not great. I find that when it comes to information in general, like numbers, recipes, lists, lyrics - whatever - I'm way more capable than she is of recalling the information.

I know one other INTJ, not very close, but same deal.

I have an outstanding memory. Haha, The Simpsons where Homer boasts that his bill is outstanding.

 

[BigApplePi]

I believe this is an important thread to uncover theory, but will only say this much for now:

Memory is internal. You can't see my memories. When they come to consciousness, they take different forms. For an INTP, they could only be Ti or Si. For an INTJ, they could be only Ni or Fi. If this is the case, an INTP would have logical memories. My memory is excellent for intuitive logic something but I don't quite understand it. It comes out as Ne when I post one of those (1)...(5) things. I am only comfortable with memories when I can "Si" them ... what ever that means. I hate Ni memories because I'm loath to generalize and keep generalizations though I'm always after them.

Following this line of logic, an INTJ uses Ni for memory. The ones with Ni I've met on this board are super at broad memories but suck at specific memories. Isn't that because they lack Si?

Sorry If I can't go further with this as I gotta meet my wife somewhere.