Is suicide selfish?

[Seteleechete]

I have no problems allowing my or the collective conciousness narrow down my actions, just my reasoning(which granted is an action). That is why I cannot with a good conciousness disregard the reasoning in blaruuns story, something you implied I should do(which is why it annoyed me). At least that is how I interpreted it.

 

[nanook]

I am highly critical of society, and I hold individual conscience highly in my values, but I still realize that my conscience only gets its form from the learning I have received from other people in my society.

more precisely your brain evolves to tune into some particular broadcasted frequencies of cultural complexity while being blind to lower or higher frequencies, at a particular time. your own tendencies become colored and detailed through the collective ways.


my observation is that people who find a very functional place in the world will often not evolve to switch onto a higher frequency. a place is given up during times of conflict and a person (brain) may give up the whole frequency and discover a higher one and seek a new place in it. the causation is unclear, does structural growth of the individual brain lead to conflict with the collective at that level or can conflict provoke structural growth in some individuals.

i speculate that not functioning in this world on any level and they providing no solutions to my problems may have caused me to grow through the levels like you would switch through bad TV channels. because i seem to be an unlikely candidate to excel at growth, given my history of with being challenged with many things.

 

[TBerg]

Jenny's dad sounds so much like mine. My dad has a calloused permissiveness that I think sucked so much hope and development away from me. It is this behavior that I consider the embodiment of the anti-hero archetype. But my gift is the protest against this form of nihilism.

 

[Seteleechete]

I embraced and accepted nihilism, then I decided it was insufficient reason to not live life anyway. Nothing matters in the end true, but I can still enjoy life in the meantime.

 

[TBerg]

Meh. Nihilism gets boring.

 

[Seteleechete]

I am to principled to abandon nihilism. My one core value of never lying to myself won't allow it.




Funny thing though the fact that it got boring is a major contributing reason to me using the circumvent logic of living life anyway without actually rejecting the principles. Using counter logic instead of affirmative logic ftw.

 

[nanook]

anyone who does not allow for his thoughts to change is lying to himself, because change is the most essential truth of the human condition and personality is the biggest lie.

staying in control is pretty much the same as lying, telling a story over and over again.

the only way to stay honest as a human being is to be open to all of the suspicious cognitions that come in like rain, many of which are on to something big.

taking psychedelics would be honest but i am too busy lying to myself so i procrastinate ayahuasca a little bit longer.

of course you should not fake change and adopt alien ideas. though, in how far are we even capable of adopting alien ideas? we can't really perceive them.

the only danger towards loosing yourself in change is that you adopt old ideas of your own brain, that you regress into a former self, because society would rather have you on this frequency.

that's what people mean when they say something like 'punx forever'. it means 'never again school'. (and all of society is misperceived as if it were a school, when in reality much of society is an alien concept to the punk)

people can't be in relationship with a story of someone else, unless it's a variation of their own story but then it would be a very dead relationship wherein both individuals feel isolated and trapped to a degree.

or it's an uneven relationship, where someone relates to another person trough an old story of himself, but if the other person holds on to their story, no teaching can happen and it's still somewhat pointless.

a more inspiring relationship must be based in the willingness to let go of believes and to learn from the experience of the relationship itself.

i have this problem myself. while i am not outspoken about my believes, in a real life relationship and while i act in a compromising manner, i am still attached to many believes and can not find people who resonate with the same believes or frequencies so i am trapped in isolation and that is the most suicide inspiring situation i can think of for myself.

if there is any universal purpose to human life i would think it's basically exchange with others on the levels that your body includes, physical exchange, emotional exchange, mental exchange. that's what you need a human body for. if this becomes impossible, why hang in there?

 

[TBerg]

I am to principled to abandon nihilism. My one core value of never lying to myself won't allow it.

Can those thoughts even take form in nihilism?

 

[Seteleechete]

Those thoughts took form before my nihilism did. I used them to keep me centered during the worst periods. My nihilism took form because of those thoughts though.

 

[Seteleechete]

I admitt myself to not being infallible I am a human unintentional breaches of my values are quiet acceptable. It is actively deviating that is not. And I also admitt I would abandon all my values for a strong enough reason, I just don't want too. I change my thoughts all the time as I gain new information.


Don't confuse not allowing change with not wanting change.

My values are currently worth more to me than my happiness.

 

[Jennywocky]

What's your nihilism meant to you, and specifically what's it encompass?

 

[nanook]

How does that even work? What idea of happiness do you have, that it is not synchronized with values? I am INFP, it's hard for me to understand! I try to imagine: you may think it would make you happy to marry that nazi girlfriend, but you are not willing to become a nazi. so you don't. But how could someone have such an outdated idea of happiness? Clearly that marriage would be hell and not make anyone happy.

Or to use my own example: I might try to think for a second that having money would make me happy, but my values disapprove of the process of earning it, therefore the process would be hell for me and it's an impossibly silly thought to still associate this whole money-lifestyle with happiness.

So i can't honestly claim that my values are worth more than my happiness. They are the best happiness i know how to achieve.

Oh wait, i've got it, your values may not actually be your own. This is the only way any of this makes sense. Someone may "value" (actually serve) the principle of family and stay with it, even when it drives them insane and into total misery, because it's a toxic family. It's for the greater good, right? Unless it's just another example of a not updated values system. Because a toxic family will be toxic to everyone and allowing it to fall apart can be the best path for everyone. The super-ego is where not-updated value systems hang around.

 

[Seteleechete]

Please ask your questions in the new thread I made for this. I will try to answer them all.

 

[TBerg]

An interesting read: http://www.dhspriory.org/kenny/PhilTexts/Strauss/GermanNihilism.pdf

 

[Seteleechete]

And I just looked at the google definition which matched my situation close engh. ^_^

 

[Sockrates]

My dad began drinking heavily in his 20's, he was already an alcoholic. When his mom died when he was in his early 30's, he took a downturn that he never recovered from. He drank so consistently and so heavily that he lost his job (which is one of the few things he loved) and never really found anything stable and worth his time for the rest of his life. He wasn't there for his family. he rejected his friends and relatives. He spent all of his time drinking. he almost died in his 60's from alcohol poisoning but somehow came out of the coma and finally died at age 71 of alcohol poisoning.

I feel like the last 35 years or more of his life was a slow suicide where he didn't have the guts to keep on living but he also didn't have the guts to just end it. He was a coward, to me. I would have rather had my father, I wish he would have cared enough to LIVE; but if he was going to give up then, I wish he had just ended it then; instead we had to suffer emotional damage for the next few decades because he couldn't actually live up to his choice. He also would have spared himself a lot of anguish as well. If he wasn't going to live.

I think someone else mentioned this earlier in the thread. But really, just make the decision and then commit to it.

Those 35 years must have been rough. So I'm glad we find common ground. I understand where you are coming from, reasonably, and could only imagine how that could play out.

I only know one person who has committed suicide, I wasn't, still am not, upset with him, he did it at a decent time if nothing else.

I didn't read much, just the first few.

Don't confuse realism with pessimism Tberg.

Suppose you were asked to imagine that you've found yourself in an empty room enclosed on all sides with walls. There is nothing to do in it, nowhere to go since there is no exit, nobody comes, no relevant sensation or thought comes to your mind.

In fact the person that gave you this thought experiment is someone who you were taught to greatly respect, you have respected and liked this person since childhood. All your friends, family, teachers tried to show you how much they themselves respect this person and how much you should respect this person to be like them.

You've never before met this person, or seriously considered why you should respect them, or maybe you have come to consider that person again. So this person whom you love respect and otherwise attempt to emulate and learn from asks you to continue this thought experiment, to always try to find answers, solutions and happiness.

Since the beginning of the experiment you've spent a long time in this empty room, this prison of yours and you start to devalue the rationale behind the request for this thought experiment. Hours, days pass and nothing changes. You struggle with feelings of disillusionment, anger, anguish, fantasizing, helplessness and apathy. You come to realise that you've agreed to this experiment based on the acclamation of the majority of people yourself included, but they may have been wrong. Maybe there is nothing to discover in this nonsensical experiment where nothing changes and you decide to tell this person that you won't continue. You move leaving the scene since there is no other conversation to be had.

I say sign me up for this one, sounds like heaven. I'd find a way to have too much fun, especially by speaking to myself and discovering a way to write in this room.

 

[Ex-User (11125)]

I say sign me up for this one, sounds like heaven. I'd find a way to have too much fun, especially by speaking to myself and discovering a way to write in this room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfdN_megX4E

 

[Sockrates]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfdN_megX4E

That was horrible. What a bunch of extroverts, huh?

I know I could keep myself happy for a minimum of 72 hours. I sleep and think a lot. It's tiring.

 

[astrograph]

Thinking that people who commit suicide are selfish is a sign of being egoistical, or at least it is how I see that. I mean, if you're thinking that they were selfish because they hurt your feelings... just what does it make out of you?
Most people who took their own life were going through a lot of pain or were just too weak to deal, and this fact is often overlooked. A shame, really.
It's not selfish in my opinion, and chances are that their family members and friends went through worse things than grief after losing a "selfish coward".

 

[kiddollars]

Except in extraneous circumstances where the majority of the population who knows the person wants him/her dead for some reason, then I think the honest answer is that yes, suicide is incredibly selfish, in a number of ways. It's selfish as in the sense of being (perhaps overly) self-involved, it's selfish as in the fact that it's disregarding the viewpoints and feelings of others ...

... it's very hard to argue that suicide is not selfish.

However, what is so often missing from this point is the phrase ... "but so what?"

Is eating selfish? Is defecating? Is enriching oneself at the expense of society (whether that be in material, emotional or intellectual terms)? Of course these are all activities that are either deeply self-involved or fundamentally self-serving, but society actively encourages them.

If someone takes their own life, they are being selfish, but at the same time, they are merely conforming to the values of the very society which condemns them for being such.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

I would like to have any tribe to kill the missionaries,
but it goes to show that their wisdom is infinitely above anything than the christian shitty concept of god, and reveals their wisdom for now, for ever.

 

[Fled]

No if you're a criminal.

 

[Sinny91]

I think so.. In most cases. Sure I can the exceptions however..

My dad killed himself in 2011. He didn't raise me, but that's because my mother stopped me seeing him. I discovered years worth of letters addressed to myself when I was 15 and began communication with him. From then he came down from Liverpool to come and see me at least twice a year. Initially I loved the 20 pages letters he used to send me.. but then I had boyfriends and got distracted, I couldn't keep up with all of his written post, but I wasn't concerned because I thought I had the rest of my life to get to know him.

Then there came a time in life where things were really sucky for me, and I was thinking about leaving Birmingham and telling my dad I was coming to stay with him in Liverpool (which he would have loved). However before I got the chance to do that my mother received a visit from the police informing her that he had killed himself.

Instead of my dad being there when I needed him, and he needed me, he bypassed all that and turned the lights out. Left me with all his funeral and affairs to try to manage. (Which I done poorly). I had little to no support during that time period.

That was bloody selfish of him.

He has left a rather large diary detailing his whole reasoning and a goodbye to me. He even ritualistically made himself his last meal.

To this day I have not opened the diary nor read it. I haven't collected his ashes.That was such a black and bleak period of my life I have 'some complex' addressing the issue of final closure.. The fact that I haven't yet put him to rest is slowly eating away at me. I will do.. At some point.

To top that off, my mother is an alcoholic, has been since I was young. She's nearly died like 5 times. And still persists in destroying herself, leaving me with more responsibility and emptiness. Selfish bitch - I still love her, but I hate her for being weak. She's been through trauma, but she's got/had dependants, she needs to snap outta it. (but she won't).

What happens to a soul that doesn't want to live?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhS_BEYG-uA

 

[vladmirus]

On the subject of suicide, Albet Camus has some interesting writing (That helped to start the Absurdist school of thought) Specifically read

http://sharepoint.mvla.net/teachers...Camus Myth of Sisyphus and other readings.pdf

The Section titled: Absurdity and Suicide fits in this discussion I think.
I to a certain extent am an absurdist, so I do apologize I know not a lot of people agree with my views.

 

[lelldoren71]

It's an interesting question. You probably know that Camus said that the only important philosophical question was suicide. Camus describes the "nobility" of Sisyphus, the tragic greek character who's hell requires him to push a large rock up a hill each day only to have it roll back down and have to start over the next day. Yet in an absurd world devoid of hope Sisyphus perseveres. Not sure if that is relevant but I love Camus even though I disagree with him. In the face of the Absurd Camus adds his own judgement. Of course we all do this but we do not suggest that this value statement characterizes the universal nature of existence. I'm off track. Yes suicide is selfish. So is eating. Living and dying are both selfish. However our existence seems to be richly intertwined with the world and people in our lives, it relational in nature. When we see this we must recognize that we have a responsibility to each other, even to those who harm us. Personally I choose not to see the world as "Absurd" I see it as "Magic". I recognize the limits of my evolved pattern recognizing organ to decode and simplify the world. This may not be consoling to those faced with darkness of oblivion but if you can give yourself time, step back and see the people in your life, see the generations that came before you and the endless stars. Live selfishly. It's all you have and may be all you will ever have. Sometimes we must come to the very precipice of life to see past the BS. At this edge you may find a new self confidence. You may realize that life is a decision. Clarity can give you the confidence and strength to shed that darkness and the people or circumstances that help lead you there.

 

[eagor]

suicide is a strange beast of a concept (as is everything related to life/death) but here are my thoughts on it for those interested.

Spoiler

1. suicide has been around forever, in fact i'm pretty sure it's an action only humans can take.

2. there is no proof of life/existence after death and there is no proof that there isn't, so divine punishment/oblivion are invalid reasons against suicide.

3. the only effect of suicide is on the people who knew you when you were alive, since most historical figures aren't really remembered for commiting suicide but for what they accomplished making their suicide a piece of trivia.

with these things in mind I’d like to turn your attention to this line of reasoning

let's imagine three people labeled 1, 2 and 3

person 1 makes little impact on anyone else throughout his life, makes very few social/emotional relationships

person 2 has a "regular" life, married, 2.3 kids and a shit paying job has many friends/acquaintances

person 3 is a celebrity, loved by millions lives the high life and can afford all the luxuries his era has to offer

now all of these people kill themselves, person a isn't really missed except by his parents/siblings (maybe extended family) and maybe 0-5 friends/coworkers and dies unrecognized by history. Person 2 of course is missed and mourned by many people (oh the humanity) but also is ultimately forgotten by history, the only exception to historical culling might be person 3. However history is an interesting creature in that it knows all that is recorded but not a single person will know everything about it (in fact i would go as far to say the sum total of human knowledge would be insufficient to know history), therefore eventually that celebrity (unless he cured aids, hunger and war) will be effectively culled like person 1 and 2.

so if no one remembers these people in a historical sense which is the only real value the human race has then suicide therefore has no effect on anything relevant.

hope that was clear, or at least well put togethor, your thoughts?