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Is suicide selfish?

TheManBeyond

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When you have gone beyond a point where all you do is fuck the whole thing over and over again, almost acting like a fucking clown like if you were a 12 years old baby changing opinions every now and then while everyone is trying hard to recover you for years to the point that they are getting mad as well, specially for aged fathers and mothers well i say fuck you, i have lost my consideration.
I mean depression is not always about being sad and suicidal and crying, sometimes it goes along aggressive behaviors towards those who surround you, egocentric attitudes, physiologic abuse and shit.
Sometimes because a person is depressed doesn't mean that person is a good person and has to be eternally assisted.
This is a part of me, the other side wants to help but continuously loses courage.
 

TBerg

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You sure don't mention trying very hard to channel yourself into worthwhile activities. Living is often harder than dying. You are not extraordinary in your suffering or your infliction of suffering. Just choose to live like every other sorry bastard out there. Jus because others are vapid does not mean that they don't fuck things up. Fuck you and fuck your ultimate expression giving everyone a rude gesture.
 

redbaron

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Yawn. As if people who're living on the verge of being suicidal haven't already been through, heard about and tried very hard to "channel themselves into worthwhile activities".

Oreo got it in one post.

OrLevitate said:
If the misery is sincerely too much for too long and incurable then the people who would stop you are selfish.
 

Pyropyro

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A bit strong, but I understand where TheManBeyond is coming from. However, I do not share their conclusion that one should kill themselves to ease the burden on their families.

Instead one should strive to earn their keep to compensate with the burden that they are piling on their families. It's cruel but I believe it's more cruel to suck resources when you have the potential to generate them instead.
 

TBerg

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Yeah, RB, because we all know that no one is ever resentful and forgets their role in the world.
 

redbaron

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There's a rather big leap between being actually suicidal and just being resentful/feeling like you've got no role in the world. It might contribute to the path towards feeling that way but there's no need to conflate them.

A lot of people who're suicidal have tried incredibly hard. Harder than most people ever would or are even capable of doing. It'd be nice if trying harder was a legitimate solution but it just doesn't work that way.

This thread is well worth a read: http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=2445
 

Pyropyro

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There's a rather big leap between being actually suicidal and just being resentful/feeling like you've got no role in the world. It might contribute to the path towards feeling that way but there's no need to conflate them.
Indeed. The first case needs medical and psychological intervention ASAP. The latter one needs some heart to heart talk (or even a punch to the face).

A lot of people who're suicidal have tried incredibly hard. Harder than most people ever would or are even capable of doing. It'd be nice if trying harder was a legitimate solution but it just doesn't work that way.
Agree. Suicidal tendencies are one of those things that you need to get help from other people and not just try harder. Sometimes medical intervention is needed since some cases depression are due to some physical damage to one's brain.

Oh just to clear any unnecessary confusion. My last reply is for people who are not necessarily clinically disabled by depression (Depression comes in degrees of severity).
 

TBerg

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You guys think that all humans make reasonable choices responding to completely genuine events, but human have faults. People who commit suicide are no less stupid and childish than anyone else.
 

Jennywocky

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You guys think that all humans make reasonable choices responding to completely genuine events, but human have faults. People who commit suicide are no less stupid and childish than anyone else.

You can speak for yourself, thanks.

The reality to me is that some people make very very reasonable decisions and others make horrible decisions; and some have good reasons and some have bad. So it's a matter of examining the situation/context and the person's reasoning to determine whether something seems productive/sensible or not.
 

TBerg

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That's kind of what I was saying, Jenny. They were acting like suicide was reasonable by definition.
 

Jennywocky

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That's kind of what I was saying, Jenny. They were acting like suicide was reasonable by definition.

Yeah, I think either extreme is bad.

It's unfortunate that laws and social mores tend to try to establish something as a hard line, where the world is more complicated in some circumstances (such as this one). But for this topic, it usually leads to people talking past each other.
 

Yellow

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I only mentioned my professional opinions about suicide before, but my personal opinion is that suicide is sometimes a reasonable response to unreasonable conditions.

Now in the case of people who are depressed or otherwise mentally ill, I think intervention is incredibly necessary. Especially if you see it from the point of view that the person's rational processes have been overrun by the disease. That being said, I think intervention should take place long before someone gets to the point of suicidal ideation.

Sometimes though, suicide is the rational option. I have lived through some awful events, and I might talk about them sometime, but suffice it to say that suicide/death was my "Plan D" to make it stop. I was lucky that "Plan A" was a success, but I wouldn't have hesitated to try to die if nothing else worked, and years later, I still believe that it would have been the right thing to do. Everyone has to set their own limit on their suffering.

In a less extreme degree, I understand people killing themselves from shame too. It was historically practiced in multiple cultures, and I think it will continue (informally) to be practiced worldwide. While I wouldn't encourage it, I can sympathize. We all have to live with ourselves and our decisions. If someone experiences a devastating failure, it may be more than he/she can ever live with.

Anyway, overall, I just wish that people treated suicide with more understanding. Of course, that is nearly impossible. I think it loops back into our illusion of control. We always want to be able to list a reason why something unpleasant happens to someone, so that we can comfort ourselves in the knowledge that it can't happen to us. It is only a "sobering" event when we can't find a way to de-empathize with the victim.
 

TBerg

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I also want to reincarnate my assertion that suicide should be generally discouraged rather than encouraged and that people who commit suicide are no more capable of rationality and compassion than those around them.
 

TBerg

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Great. Not only is anti-Americanism something the cool kids are trying; they are now trying anti-humanism! Wow. That's like so edgy, man.
 

redbaron

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TBerg said:
You guys think that all humans make reasonable choices responding to completely genuine events

Nice strawman.

TBerg said:
I also want to reincarnate my assertion that suicide should be generally discouraged rather than encouraged.

Obviously.

TBerg said:
people who commit suicide are no more capable of rationality and compassion than those around them.

No.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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As long as there is no reason to human existence, there will be no established reason for its end. Calling it selfish or not is introducing a personal opinion on an otherwise human freedom to regulate themselves. This freedom doesn't have to be proven in anyway, since it lies within the naturally practiced set of decision that people across the globe choose to make and can perform on their own, equally being within their skill set and bodily move set.

Generally speaking, less humans means more resources for everyone else. Suicidal thought may be the ultimate consideration of ones role in the society as well as their turning back on the slave contract with the reality they were forced (produced) to accept by developing a brain inside their mother's womb.
 

Yellow

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Generally speaking, less humans means more resources for everyone else.
This line reminded me of something that was mentioned numerous times when I was taking the ecology/population/genetics type classes for my bio degree. Every population of every species has an effective size limit for its environment. Different experts have a different number in mind for the global human population, but it is a matter of biological law that a population will stabilize at or near its resource limit. The thing is, the factors at work to limit a population size have not been exhaustively identified. In addition to things like food availability, we have discovered, for example, that male mammals are more often sterile (or have lowered sperm count) when in crowded living conditions. Another is the significantly increased risk of devastating diseases killing off crowded populations.

To add to the more established methods, I remember several hypotheses being proposed that increased incidents of depression and other suicide/homicide-prone mental illnesses were a biological force that will/may contribute to the stabilization of our population. The rough explanation being that crowding together in cities and suburbs leads to an increase in daily stress. Increased daily stress makes one more prone to stress disorders and mental illness.

Similar arguments came up suggesting that increased homosexual behavior and/or decreased/nonexistent sexual drive could also be a natural biological control to curb reproduction.

Anyway, food for thought.
 

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Similar arguments came up suggesting that increased homosexual behavior and/or decreased/nonexistent sexual drive could also be a natural biological control to curb reproduction.

Anyway, food for thought.
That and plethora of social changes that promote women independence from men among others.

The problem is that with our population being placed in such diverse conditions we are already becoming extinct due to overcrowding in some regions while becoming extinct due to underpopulation in others.

Think of Africa or worse-off Asian regions as those where people reached their natural sustainable potential and can push the limits with technology, but many people there suffer poverty and hunger because what they currently have is simply not enough to provide for everyone. So there are spearate human habitats in europe for example where population is in decline and a high percentage of individuals have their bare essentials provided by the government or by the opportunities in their environment. There is a global system but it divides on highly isolated cases too.

I thought how feasible it could be in the future to make everyone sterile with only specialised facilities reversing that process after the potential parents meet the required conditions and are granted a child, probably considering their life situation, future, genetic makeup etc.

There is a number of different solutions to this, but when you mentioned self-regulating population after it reaches its peak then in animal kingdom it means some die of starvation, some are preyed upon, that there are natural factors limiting this population. Technology on the other hand is all about overcoming these obstacles, increasing security, mass producing crops and cheaply feeding, which leaves potential for more growth, until some natural limit that even technology cannot help is reached. But I find this brutal game of elimination and unnecessary life to be something that can be possibly avoided. We could have a population reaching their 100% and dealing with these issues or a population on 20 or 30% that is far from worrying about most basic issues each day. That is, there is a degree of engineering that can be applied, even on this early stage of economy planning.
 

Ex-User (11125)

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no thanks. i'll pass on your brave-new-world vision.
http://nursingclio.org/2012/09/14/whats-so-bad-about-eugenics/
If you are so eager to attribute one of hundreds of possible solutions to me personally? I tend to look at possibilities as they come, without introducing any personal bias I might have. Pardon if this hurts your sensitivity but it's not "mine" vision. Furthermore screening preventively for genomes versus choosing which genes are correct ones to be promoted over others is another world entirely and cannot be labeled strictly as eugenics.

Huxley had great persuasive ability, but he was an afraid old man after all. I don't share his fears but I also don't ride on the opposite bandwagon. Gattaca would be higher on my eugenic digestive order tbf.

edit: The blog article you linked attacks eugenics mostly based on its historical origin and outdated errors while linking it to the hastily generalised case of assigning moral/ethical values to genetic traits.

Based on the article I can hastily assume that the author of this article clearly follows that creation of newborn people doesn't make them products or belongings of their parents, rather the author thinks of newborn as free agents that cannot have anything else than nature (naturalistic fallacy) forced on them before they can decide on their own. I would just take a bunch of people and let them decide which genes they like after they are decisive again, maybe they would like to pick some suboptimal genes for thinking or some harsh disabilities? Interesting what would happen indeed ;).
 

TBerg

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In this world of ours, it is edgy and avant garde to be self-destructive. In a world dispirited by the unfulfillment of ideals, it becomes trendy to mock the ideals of self-preservation by embracing whole-heartedly the vision of the enemy. So we have "liberals" apologizing for bin Laden, even sometimes enacting the death-knell of their values by embracing the destructive vision of the Holocaust, a trauma that prompted the development of their supposedly universal values in the first place. It was the dispirited German that needed our understanding, they claim, not the Jews falling victim to the most depraved treatment in world history. But this embrace of the anti-hero is not grand enough for them. They must sully their own values even more.

If the development of universal human dignity was not a target of sufficient attraction, then they must find something truly ubiquitous in its depravity. They must target not only human values but the human itself. Ignoring the fact that countless species have suffered the fate of extinction before the advent of human civilization, they claim that humans are a cancer atop the planet. Instead of being proud of the ability of human intelligence to create a civilization that elevates us above the jungle, these new anti-humanists claim that it is our most profound gift of which we have the most to be ashamed. Ignoring the utter depravity of other creatures when they apply the same pessimistic lens to them, they give other creatures license to take over everything we have successfully taken as a species.

If other creatures are so much more innocent than us, then why don't we start copying other creatures? Why don't we kill every male with whom we copulate, as the mantises do? Why don't we kill every member of another tribe, as the lions do? Why don't we devour every tiny creature we encounter, as the bats do to insects? You see, anti-humanists work directly against the survival of human individuals, but they won't work for the extinction of individuals of other species.

Further, they may impugn the mere utterance of godly language, but they assume the level of the gods in their views on the management of a species. They just KNOW how to manage the eugenocide of a population, but they impugn the spirit of idealism that prompts it in the first place. They impugn the strategic calculus of global hegemony, but they fancy themselves the architects of a New Species Order. They impugn the survival of those they manage in the furtherance of a survival they cannot even predict. They say there is no high purpose to save us from hedonistic destruction, but they claim the highest purpose in the propagation of eugenocide. They presume there is a good reason to kill yourself, but they don't have the courage of their convictions to tell you to follow it through.

If this does not apply to you, then don't worry about my polemics. If you worry about my polemics, then assume that it applies to you.
 

redbaron

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TBerg said:
They presume there is a good reason to kill yourself, but they don't have the courage of their convictions to tell you to follow it through.

This is a joke right?

There's a difference between
- recognizing suicide as being an individual choice
- encouraging individuals to commit suicide

How can't you understand this?
 

TBerg

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Just because I don't buy into the collective nihilism of the time does not make me brainwashed. Apparently people have a problem compounding the lack of spirit of the time with more lack of spirit. The ego is the rebellion against death itself.
 

redbaron

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Maybe you're not brainwashed, but are you even capable of producing an original thought at all?

How is it bad to view suicide as an unselfish individual choice?
 

Ex-User (9062)

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Just because I don't buy into the collective nihilism of the time does not make me brainwashed. Apparently people have a problem compounding the lack of spirit of the time with more lack of spirit. The ego is the rebellion against death itself.

This fear of death is a human condition,
some make up stories about an afterlife or rebirth to cope with it,
others seek their salvation in becoming immortal via machines, like the transhumanists do.
However, none of the above tackles the actual problem.
These things all pertain to something that is beyond knowable things.
However, improving living conditions, eradicating poverty, the redistribution of wealth has palpable effects in the here and now.
So, if i were to be exposed to choose between the two, i would most likely choose that which has an observable effect on the people i live with.
 

TBerg

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This is a joke right?

There's a difference between
- recognizing suicide as being an individual choice
- encouraging individuals to commit suicide

How can't you understand this?

You erred on the side of understanding the rationality of suicide. That is what was wrong. I never said we should take away the choice, only that we should not fall into the same trap as the suicidal person and tell them that what they are experiencing makes sense as a matter of course. Why do you presume the right to respect the absolute rationality of someone's choice? How do you know they aren't just as lacking in compassion and rationality as everyone else? Why not go out of the way to say something against death instead of going out of the way to articulate respect for it? A person who is still walking the path of life should err on the side of life until they have the conviction to follow through on their pessimism, in which case you cannot tell anyone of your pessimism anymore.
 

Jennywocky

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Hopefully if this person is a friend, you have some kind of sense of whether they are lucid or not.

I'm not sure what the rest of this incessant bickering is even about.
 

Ex-User (9062)

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PS:

A lot of suicidal persons i met, including me, had a problem with being truthful to their innate abilities.
Either there was expected too much from them, or there was expected too little.
Fine-tuning those innate capabilities to the demands of the external world is a challenge for these persons.
The best advice i can give to anybody who has to deal with them is to give them some room to re-assess their positions, don't overwhelm them with concepts and ideas that are totally outside of their immediate thinking capabilities.
 

redbaron

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TBerg said:
Why not go out of the way to say something against death instead of going out of the way to articulate respect for it?

Because it's the lack of ability for people to find worth in and to respect themselves, combined with the perpetual judgment of their so-called 'irrational' mental state that leads so many people ultimately becoming depressed and committing suicide in the first place.

If being suicidal was something people could successfully rationalize themselves or try hard to get out of - they'd have done it already. They're not suicidal for lack of trying not to be, so it's pointless to ask them to 'try harder' or tell them they're being irrational.

How about giving them some support by not presuming to know better than they do? Try to actually understand, rather than jumping to conclusions about them on the basis of their mental state or preaching the value of life - majority of people who're suicidal have been over it in more agonizing detail than you'd realize. There's no point going over them again.

Being genuinely respected and loved regardless of whether they're a fuck-up or not is likely to be one of the only things a suicidal person hasn't had. How about we give a little more of that instead of crying out about irrationality and nihilism?

TBerg said:
And I would hardly call disagreeing with the majority of people being unoriginal.

Not that originality is even predicated on being a minority, but believe me you're firmly grounded in the traditionalist majority in the colonial west who reflexively label suicide on the basis of their moral preconceptions.
 

TBerg

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Because it's the lack of ability for people to find worth in and to respect themselves, combined with the perpetual judgment of their so-called 'irrational' mental state that leads so many people ultimately becoming depressed and committing suicide in the first place.

If being suicidal was something people could successfully rationalize themselves or try hard to get out of - they'd have done it already. They're not suicidal for lack of trying not to be, so it's pointless to ask them to 'try harder' or tell them they're being irrational.

How about giving them some support by not presuming to know better than they do and try to actually understand just how rational they are rather than jumping to conclusions about them on the basis of their mental state?

As someone who is cursed by profound despair sometimes, I know that pessimism is not the antidote for it. I know that death-worshipping worldviews often reinforce my despair and give me support for my myopia. I know that people reminding me of things I discount makes all the difference in the world. I know that I sometimes take their corrections as a spine-straighteners that lift me up while I wait for my next life nourishment.

I do not condemn people for looking through their lives and despairing, but I think there is a point at which someone has to tell them no. We all require boundaries to keep us safe. I do not tell people to simply try harder. I try to rip apart their myopia or encourage the virtues I know they possess.
 

redbaron

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Well no one in this thread is being pessimistic or even being close to, 'death-worshipping' and as I've said there's a difference between respecting someone and encouraging suicide. Nor does anything I've said imply that I'd not make an effort (and have) to discourage someone from suicide.
 

TBerg

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The thread was veering on discussing the advantages of suicide without a mutter of protest. Books were posted deconstructing life-giving virtues. That's why I went grandly polemical.
 

redbaron

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Of course there's no protest - it'd be pointless to deny that there's advantages to suicide when there so obviously is.

Recognition isn't endorsement though.
 

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What do you consider someone who smokes a minimum of a pack of cigarette per day?/a fifth/twelve pack of alcohol per day?/ a bump of coke per day?

These are all acts of suicide since they have been proven to shorten life and hurt body function. Sure it isn't as drastic as a bullet to the skull, but it could be considered more selfish that a person acts like this than simply offing themselves. Just a thought.
 

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The thread was veering on discussing the advantages of suicide without a mutter of protest. Books were posted deconstructing life-giving virtues. That's why I went grandly polemical.

My impression is that it backfired. But maybe that's just me.
 

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What do you consider someone who smokes a minimum of a pack of cigarette per day?/a fifth/twelve pack of alcohol per day?/ a bump of coke per day?

These are all acts of suicide since they have been proven to shorten life and hurt body function. Sure it isn't as drastic as a bullet to the skull, but it could be considered more selfish that a person acts like this than simply offing themselves. Just a thought.

My dad began drinking heavily in his 20's, he was already an alcoholic. When his mom died when he was in his early 30's, he took a downturn that he never recovered from. He drank so consistently and so heavily that he lost his job (which is one of the few things he loved) and never really found anything stable and worth his time for the rest of his life. He wasn't there for his family. he rejected his friends and relatives. He spent all of his time drinking. he almost died in his 60's from alcohol poisoning but somehow came out of the coma and finally died at age 71 of alcohol poisoning.

I feel like the last 35 years or more of his life was a slow suicide where he didn't have the guts to keep on living but he also didn't have the guts to just end it. He was a coward, to me. I would have rather had my father, I wish he would have cared enough to LIVE; but if he was going to give up then, I wish he had just ended it then; instead we had to suffer emotional damage for the next few decades because he couldn't actually live up to his choice. He also would have spared himself a lot of anguish as well. If he wasn't going to live.

I think someone else mentioned this earlier in the thread. But really, just make the decision and then commit to it.
 

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Don't confuse realism with pessimism Tberg.

Suppose you were asked to imagine that you've found yourself in an empty room enclosed on all sides with walls. There is nothing to do in it, nowhere to go since there is no exit, nobody comes, no relevant sensation or thought comes to your mind.

In fact the person that gave you this thought experiment is someone who you were taught to greatly respect, you have respected and liked this person since childhood. All your friends, family, teachers tried to show you how much they themselves respect this person and how much you should respect this person to be like them.

You've never before met this person, or seriously considered why you should respect them, or maybe you have come to consider that person again. So this person whom you love respect and otherwise attempt to emulate and learn from asks you to continue this thought experiment, to always try to find answers, solutions and happiness.

Since the beginning of the experiment you've spent a long time in this empty room, this prison of yours and you start to devalue the rationale behind the request for this thought experiment. Hours, days pass and nothing changes. You struggle with feelings of disillusionment, anger, anguish, fantasizing, helplessness and apathy. You come to realise that you've agreed to this experiment based on the acclamation of the majority of people yourself included, but they may have been wrong. Maybe there is nothing to discover in this nonsensical experiment where nothing changes and you decide to tell this person that you won't continue. You move leaving the scene since there is no other conversation to be had.
 

TBerg

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I have had those thoughts before, Blarrun. I know how they arise in people. The fact is, though, that there is a whole universe inside our minds, and I have always found something more to discover. The reality is that we find these things in each other and find commonalities to make us feel less lonely. This is the purpose of collective hope and collective condemnation of nihilism. It allows us to share more and more steps above the stage that keeps us from falling into utter nothingness.

The purpose of collective morality is to keep us from venturing too far down into the abyss. Collective morality at its best finds ways of sparking more and more hopes inside of us as human beings and to spur us towards sharing these realities and lifting each other up.
 

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if you think you should get something out of the many experiments we like to conduct in life, you have a problem. the results of experiments add complexity to the world, but do not add to how well you really are, except in the case of experimenting towards more physical health. also the experimentation itself can add in so far it is entertaining, unless it's a stupid experiment like 'go, see if you can bore yourself to death'

everyone has some thoughts like "i must get something out of this experiment" but luckily we can hold contradictory thoughts. you should not believe that this particular thought is true to the exclusion of others such as 'i don't need anything to be a happy monkey'.

you try to get satisfaction out of winning the game and you fail. 'the fool who insists on his folly becomes wise.' to realize that you can't get something out of most experiments in life should liberate you from the thought that you should or could.


you should feel more alive then, not more suicidal. and you wouldn't be overly nihilistic at all, just not quite as fanatic as some idealists of society. much of what society does is still a good game to play.

this tight room that you describe, blaurraun, is typically created by believing in a thought so much, that it can close out all opposing thoughts. this is not a state of meditation at all and certainly not a playful state, just the opposite.

what's a problem is that other people can infect you with their grim believe in the absolute importance of some experiment. then whatever they do can't serve you as a fun game. either you avoid them or become serious like them. if you just want to play, perhaps on a high level or any level, you may have difficulty finding someone else who wants to join with a playful spirit.

tberg, one of those books recommended above was also recommended by benjamin smythe, who is a very playful monkey. i doubt he would recommend a book that is destructive of life. i assume this book titled conspiracy something might be about capitalism, socialism, other isms that make you feel trapped as a servant to a running mill instead of making you realize that you can have the creative control over it. humanism or integralism can serve as a good map or be perverted into a racetrack by ambitious egos.
 

Seteleechete

Together forever
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I am far to individualistic to allow something like "collective morality" affect my reasoning, it holds the same stock as any other piece of fact(though it still holds a lot of influence, since it is a major point when making any decision/conclusion). It's also usually the default stance for actions when I have no time to think. The point being, it does not invalidate other potentially more reasonable conclusions on the basis of being "collective morality". Thats like saying you should like X because everyone else does, I won't without a more solid reason.
 

TBerg

fallen angel who hasn't earned his wings
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Of course, you don't want to give up your own conscience, but you always have to decide whether your own conscience is more important than the conscience of those who disagree with you, and the decisions of the group often allow for the individual to find their place without too much anguishing deliberation. We don't have to agonize over the countless options we have because society has narrowed them down for us. I do not mean to imply that we give everything to the collective but that each individual finds a way to apply their strengths to something society should appreciate. Even criticizing society is ultimately applying your own individual understanding of morality to the group of which the individual is a member. I am highly critical of society, and I hold individual conscience highly in my values, but I still realize that my conscience only gets its form from the learning I have received from other people in my society. To paraphrase my understanding of Confucianism: The individual must harmonize with the collective and the collective must harmonize with the individual.
 
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