is suicide selfish?

[samjonathan]

so i'm not exactly sure if this belongs here and i'm quite sure that it's probably been discussed on the forum before at least once... or 12 times, whatever, anyway, what do you think about suicide, do you think it's selfish to disregard the feelings of those around you and how it would affect them if you were to kill yourself? or do you think it's selfish of those around you to call you selfish by disregarding how you felt when you decided to kill yourself? is labeling suicide as selfish a way of emotionally blackmailing people into not killing themselves? do some people genuinely believe that suicide is selfish? all these questions and more

i don't really know what i think about it, i mean i can see both sides of the argument and i think it's probably not the kind of issue that can be logically discussed when so much emotion and feelings are involved but i'd be interested to see who thinks what.....

 

[Chad]

do you think it's selfish to disregard the feelings of those around you and how it would affect them if you were to kill yourself?

I think the Definition of selfish is disregarding the feelings (or opinions) of those around you (that care about you) and disregarding how your chooses effect other people.

In that way Suicide is selfish. The better question would be is being selfish a bad thing.

Personally I don't like the idea of suicide mostly because I don't want to die (therefore I have no will to kill myself). However, morally as this question applies to others and not myself (for my own personal reasons) Suicide kinda falls in a moral grey area.

Personally, I place it in the bad never going to happen area but that because Suicide is a personal choose and one that I would never make for myself. (at least this is my belief as of right now.)

Sorry if this doesn't answer you question completely.

 

[samjonathan]

I think the Definition of selfish is disregarding the feelings (or opinions) of those around you (that care about you) and disregarding how your chooses effect other people.

yeahh good point, what if you did consider them and then decided to go along with it anyway and somehow managed to do so without actually disregarding their feelings or opinions, would there be a way of working out whether your need/desire to die was actually more important than the potential pain they'd feel rather than just placing more importance on your desire than their pain because it's your own
or maybe that distinction doesn't/couldn't actually exist

(not planning on/trying to justify killing myself btw)

 

[own8ge]

Though suicide can be selfish towards your family or parents for raising you, for humanity I think suicide to be unselfish for various reasons, besides... It's green.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjsikRTIX28

 

[Cognisant]

Which is more selfish, to commit suicide against someone else's wishes or to prevent someone committing suicide against their wishes?

Selfishness is very much a matter of perspective.

Personally I think people have the right to choose to attempt suicide and others have the right to attempt stopping them, but nobody has the right to succeed, that is a privilege to be seized.

 

[Chad]

Which is more selfish, to commit suicide against someone else's wishes or to prevent someone committing suicide against their wishes?

Selfishness is very much a matter of perspective.

Personally I think people have the right to choose to attempt suicide and others have the right to attempt stopping them, but nobody has the right to succeed, that is a privilege to be seized.

I don't know if I agree but its a very interesting perspective.

 

[samjonathan]

Personally I think people have the right to choose to attempt suicide and others have the right to attempt stopping them, but nobody has the right to succeed, that is a privilege to be seized.

well that pretty much answers the question i was trying to ask in exactly the way i was looking for it to be answered, thank you cognisant

i'd still like to hear people's opinions on the matter if they would like to voice them

 

[Chad]

yeahh good point, what if you did consider them and then decided to go along with it anyway and somehow managed to do so without actually disregarding their feelings or opinions, would there be a way of working out whether your need/desire to die was actually more important than the potential pain they'd feel rather than just placing more importance on your desire than their pain because it's your own
or maybe that distinction doesn't/couldn't actually exist

(not planning on/trying to justify killing myself btw)

Like I have already said I find this question very hard to answer. Mostly because I have never imagined myself in a place were I would want to take my own life.

Since I can't imagine personal suicide it is hard for me to ration someones else motives for suicide.

Does this make since.

Basically unless I could truly understand someone motives or reasoning for wanting to commit suicide. I can't honestly tell you rather these emotions are selfish or not. I personally would find them selfish but my perspective would always be an on looker. Not the person committing the act.

I can understand and even get inside of the head of a serial killer but the head of someone that wishes to bring death upon their self is impossible for me to imagine.

 

[ApostateAbe]

so i'm not exactly sure if this belongs here and i'm quite sure that it's probably been discussed on the forum before at least once... or 12 times, whatever, anyway, what do you think about suicide, do you think it's selfish to disregard the feelings of those around you and how it would affect them if you were to kill yourself? or do you think it's selfish of those around you to call you selfish by disregarding how you felt when you decided to kill yourself? is labeling suicide as selfish a way of emotionally blackmailing people into not killing themselves? do some people genuinely believe that suicide is selfish? all these questions and more

i don't really know what i think about it, i mean i can see both sides of the argument and i think it's probably not the kind of issue that can be logically discussed when so much emotion and feelings are involved but i'd be interested to see who thinks what.....

I think it is selfish. It is also selfish to call it selfish. But it isn't so helpful, one way or the other. The epithet is most often spoken for a rhetorical agenda to prevent suicide. Suicidal people sometimes justify their inclinations by thinking they are helping others by getting rid of themselves.

I think it is best to make sense of the reason for suicide. Suicide is rare in the animal kingdom. It is done only to help children survive or to aid reproduction. I think this is also what motivates suicide among human beings. Suicidal tendencies are most common among people with low self esteem. People with low self esteem generally feel that way for a reason. They don't have reproductive success or they don't contribute to the survival of the clan nearly as much as they like. They are instead a drain on the resources of the clan, making the clan less capable of competing with other clans. Therefore, suicidal tendencies are expected among people with low self esteem as a mechanism of natural selection. So, suicide is selfish in the modern world, but that wasn't the ancestral intention. You will never hear that from a counselor, probably for good reason.

 

[crippli]

The mother of a friend of mine suicided while I grew up, I was at their place lot's of times. She always seemed fine to me. Nice, pretty, smart also I think. But one day she hanged herself in the garage.

For me it was a bit unsettling, but also utterly fascinating, it's really something else. One should be able to do as one wants. Her kids struggled with it for a while. But seemed to cope when they got it at a distance. I do think it's murder. Similar if it's yourself or others, just more challenging with your self. It's not wrong. But it's a bit odd to murder for other reasons then for food or science. Although I think I can make a good case out of how happy and nourishing my flesh would make creatures living in both the ocean and the forest. Somewhat skinny, but still think it would make for quite a feast.

 

[redbaron]

The thing I despise most about suicide is when people other than the person who committed suicide are blamed. Like bullies being blamed for a kid at school committing suicide, or more recently two radio hosts are blamed for someone's suicide, because they played a prank on-air.

This line of reasoning is honestly ridiculous, because once you start down that path it can go anywhere. The blame lies with the person who chose to commit suicide.

If I choose to walk down the street and throw someone off a roof. I'm to blame.

If I choose to walk down the street and throw myself off a roof, I'm to blame.

Whether suicide is selfish or not, I guess it's dependent on the reasons for it. If it was done for selfless reasons (though honestly, I am having trouble imagining a realistic situation where someone would take their own life for entirely selfless reasons) then I suppose.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Of course suicide is selfish. How is that even a question?

 

[snafupants]

The only thing you "own" is your life. You, therefore, have the right to terminate it whenever you deem fit. That's more responsibility than most people can handle, so they fall back on religious or societal dogma. But anyway, is it shitty to take out four million in bank loans and off yourself, leaving your family the bills? Sure it is. It's self-centered and irresponsible but it's your right.

 

[Duxwing]

Of course suicide is selfish. How is that even a question?

I'd wager that almost every suicide is the result of a mental breakdown, not a rational decision, so a philosophical study of suicide would only apply to the vary narrow group of people who commit suicide after careful study and calm, thoughtful deliberation.

-Duxwing

 

[GodOfOrder]

I'd wager that almost every suicide is the result of a mental breakdown, not a rational decision, so a philosophical study of suicide would only apply to the vary narrow group of people who commit suicide after careful study and calm, thoughtful deliberation.

-Duxwing

True, but wouldn't it be interesting to observe that. This person must exist. I'd like to see how one would arrive at such a decision rationally.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I'd wager that almost every suicide is the result of a mental breakdown, not a rational decision, so a philosophical study of suicide would only apply to the vary narrow group of people who commit suicide after careful study and calm, thoughtful deliberation.

-Duxwing

Okay. It being selfish has nothing to do with it being rational.

 

[snafupants]

Okay. It being selfish has nothing to do with it being rational.

It's easy for people who haven't experienced serious pain to be critical.

 

[SpaceYeti]

It's easy for people who haven't experienced serious pain to be critical.

Um... Okay? Who's being critical?

 

[Chad]

It's easy for people who haven't experienced serious pain to be critical.

I have experienced serious pain. But pain doesn't lead me to want to kill myself.

 

[redbaron]

It's easy for people who haven't experienced serious pain to be critical.

My heart bleeds for you.

Spoiler

Psyche!

 

[snafupants]

My heart bleeds for you.

Spoiler

Psyche!

I'm really not a bleeding heart but I call a spade a spade.

 

[The Gopher]

Probably selfish from both sides. The side that commits it and the side that is the victim.

 

[Hadoblado]

^
People are selfish. It doesn't matter which side you're on, you're doing it for your own reasons.

 

[ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε]

^
People are selfish. It doesn't matter which side you're on, you're doing it for your own reasons.

Agreed, I'd go as far as saying that altruism doesn't really exist and all actions are traceable to a selfish reason. I'd also argue that suicide is selfish but selfishness isn't a bad thing.

 

[SpaceYeti]

^ Exactly.

 

[snafupants]

Agreed, I'd go as far as saying that altruism doesn't really exist and all actions are traceable to a selfish reason.

@ - What the fuck is your username?

So, you preclude the possibility of a philanthropic action done without any forethought or hopes of compensation or recognition? On what grounds? Maybe that it somehow helps the species? If the act is performed anonymously (e.g., cleaning the dishes) and/or without premeditation (e.g., saving someone from falling done the stairs), what exactly is your argument for the act being partly or totally selfish? The clause "all actions" has me laughing but I'm curious to hear your response.

 

[Meer]

No, not selfish, at least not in the way most people use the word. People do not choose to be born, and they alone have control over themselves. To me, it's like asking, "Is it selfish for a slave to flee?"

Sure, the slave is acting with their self in mind, and no one else, but they don't owe anyone else anything; they aren't breaking any contract. How other people feel about it, is other people's responsibility.

 

[Hadoblado]

@ - What the fuck is your username?

So, you preclude the possibility of a philanthropic action done without any forethought or hopes of compensation or recognition? On what grounds? Maybe that it somehow helps the species? If the act is performed anonymously (e.g., cleaning the dishes) and/or without premeditation (e.g., saving someone from falling done the stairs), what exactly is your argument for the act being partly or totally selfish? The clause "all actions" has me laughing but I'm curious to hear your response.

Recognition and compensation are only two possible motivators. Even if you don't act for any external reason, you still act for a reason. What possible reason could you have to do something you aren't incentivised to do? Even if you help someone anonymously, the reason you do this is that you can continue to believe that you are a person that does not need a selfish reason to act. The reason you spontaneously save someone from a dangerous fall is because you don't want to believe yourself to be a person that would sit back and watch.

 

[just george]

ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε's reply is correct in an absolute sense.

Any other answer is relative, and relies on context ie there are some contexts in which suicide is a utterly selfless eg jumping on a grenade in order to save everybody else when not jumping on it meant everybody including you dying

 

[Hadoblado]

But then that's not really suicide. Dying is just an unfortunate side effect of your actions (saving lives).

 

[just george]

suicide is killing ones self by choice. but okay, lets take away the certainty of death as a consequence of circumstance, and bring choice back into it - a parent with a sick child who commits suicide so that doctors have no choice but to transpant the parents organ into the childs body in order to save the childs life.

 

[Etheri]

^
People are selfish. It doesn't matter which side you're on, you're doing it for your own reasons.

Agreed, I'd go as far as saying that altruism doesn't really exist and all actions are traceable to a selfish reason. I'd also argue that suicide is selfish but selfishness isn't a bad thing.

I was thinking exactly this. Suicide is indeed selfish, but this doesn't need to carry the negative connotation it always does. There is always an underlying ulterior motive.

If the act is performed anonymously (e.g., cleaning the dishes) and/or without premeditation (e.g., saving someone from falling done the stairs), what exactly is your argument for the act being partly or totally selfish? The clause "all actions" has me laughing but I'm curious to hear your response.

Let me ask you this : Have you ever consciously made a terrible decision while you had obvious better alternatives for no reason at all? We always have reasons, motivations, things driving us. Whether this is through rationalisation, emotions or other motivators, there's always a motivator and it is always linked to the self. I think it may be possible there are people capable of true altruism... but they are certainly much more rare than we'd like to believe.

 

[Jennywocky]

Which is more selfish, to commit suicide against someone else's wishes or to prevent someone committing suicide against their wishes?

Selfishness is very much a matter of perspective.

Yes, basically I see selfishness as something that could exist on both sides. Maybe a potential suicide isn't thinking about the impact of their death on others; but the others aren't thinking about what the suicide is facing and why they might want to end their lives, they just are thinking about their OWN loss. So it's a two-way street. Self-absorption exists when one doesn't consider the impact of their actions on others, as well as when others try to inhibit a person's choices without regard for THAT person's situation and needs.

Suicide's a weird decision to make a judgment about, since the desire to self-terminate can range from 'sensible' (i.e., a logical decision, such as having a terminal illness) to an ill-informed and irrational decision. Maybe if the person got help or understood the decision better, they would not want to die. So there is some gray area there in terms of not intervening at all vs completely dominating someone and taking away their choice from them.

 

[Ten Letters]

Cases where suicide can become an option:
1. Seemingly unbearable pain and suffering (physical and/or mental)
2. Inability to find meaning in anything, in which case suicide becomes the most meaningful thing to do.
3. Finding the highest meaning in killing your self, in most case people are brainwashed and believe they're going to a better place or something similar.
4. Self-sacrificing you self for some person(s), apparently noble cause.

And yes, we are all able of killing our selves in the right circumstances.

 

[Jennywocky]

Thought this article would be interesting to those in this thread, since these points are specifically addressed for that particular circumstance. (The guy's mother, for example, decided she was being selfish for expecting him to live just for her sake.) Physically he's in pretty bad shape.

http://gma.yahoo.com/wounded-iraq-vet-prepares-die-122209007.html

an excerpt:

...Cuellar says since the first story was written about his choice to die last week they have received mixed reactions of people supporting Young's decision as well as people urging him to "hang on" or "fight a little more." She says it's because people can't fathom his daily pain.

In 2008, he suffered a pulmonary embolism and anoxic brain injury which he believes was because he was taken off of blood thinners. It affected his speech as well as impaired the use of his arms. Cuellar and Young met when she saw the documentary and she began visiting him when he was in rehabilitation in Chicago after the embolism. They married last April.

"He was a para[plegic] and he was independent and functioning independently so he rolled the ball up the mountain to learn how to be a paraplegic and then four years later...he has the embolism he gets rolled back all the way down the mountain and he now has to live like a partial quadriplegic," Cuellar said.

Since then, they estimate, he takes between 35 to 45 pills a day. He has mucus, but because of his paralysis cannot cough it up so Cuellar presses it out of him ten to fifteen times a day. He takes more pills for waves of nausea that hit him throughout the day, antibiotics for infections, his vision is fading, and he's had increased nightmares they linked to the increase in pain medications. His colon was removed in November and he now can't eat solid food. Young's speech is also quite slurred so his wife jumps in when needed.

"We've had to increase the pain medication over time quite consistently and incrementally so the increase in pain meds will decrease his faculties somewhat so he is becoming forgetful a little bit. He was always very clear before," Cuellar said.

She also must clean "pressure sores" on his buttocks where Cuellar says she can see the "living bone."

"I hope people understand that we are not just deciding to stop feeding because things are kind of difficult," Cuellar said. "It is an insurmountable challenge every day and I don't know how we get through. We get through with each other."

 

[Hawkeye]

Every decision you make is selfish; that is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[RaBind]

To make any decision requires a reason. When individuals decide to act upon a reason that they feel is the most logical, or selfless or good... whatever the reason, they will still have had to come to a conclusion that their own judgements outweighed the judgements of others. This is selfish as the individual undervalued and doesn't give as much importance to the judgements of others, as he or she does to his or her own judgements. Anytime you feel that your judgements are of more importance, than to the judgements made by others, you are being selfish so every action based upon a judgement is selfish, including being in existence. But in this sense what isn't selfish?

 

[Hawkeye]

To make any decision requires a reason. When individuals decide to act upon a reason that they feel is the most logical, or selfless or good... whatever the reason, they will still have had to come to a conclusion that their own judgements outweighed the judgements of others. This is selfish as the individual undervalued and doesn't give as much importance to the judgements of others, as he or she does to his or her own judgements. Anytime you feel that your judgements are of more importance, than to the judgements made by others, you are being selfish so every action based upon a judgement is selfish, including being in existence. But in this sense what isn't selfish?

This sounds like Objectivism to me. Me likey

 

[kvothe27]

Suicide doesn't benefit the self; it ends the self. There is no benefit to ego, especially since such a person likely doesn't believe in some pleasant afterlife. Moreover, suicide is often motivated by feelings of worthlessness. The person often believes suicide will be a benefit to other people. As such, I do not view it as selfish. It's a selfless act, actually, because it ends the ego. The wide condemnation for suicide is simply the result of the living's bias for life, fueled by fear of death, instinct, etc.

Living is selfish. Most people stay alive for instinctual reasons as well as to feed their egos. Staying alive for ones kids is selfish as well, because it's motivated, in large part, by a need to perpetuate ones genes, and, especially among baby boomers, to feed egos via child accomplishments. So on and so forth.

 

[Chad]

Suicide doesn't benefit the self; it ends the self. There is no benefit to ego, especially since such a person likely doesn't believe in some pleasant afterlife. Moreover, suicide is often motivated by feelings of worthlessness. The person often believes suicide will be a benefit to other people. As such, I do not view it as selfish. It's a selfless act, actually, because it ends the ego. The wide condemnation for suicide is simply the result of the living's bias for life, fueled by fear of death, instinct, etc.

Living is selfish. Most people stay alive for instinctual reasons as well as to feed their egos. Staying alive for ones kids is selfish as well, because it's motivated, in large part, by a need to perpetuate ones genes, and, especially among baby boomers, to feed egos via child accomplishments. So on and so forth.

Living life is ego I can agree with this but that isn't a bad thing its what keep life possible. However, the act of killing ones self my be removing that ego but at the same time it giving one power to control there own death. Which is ultimately the most defiantly selfish act a person can make. The results my be selfless the the act is not. Also many suicides are not meant to be successful they are meant to bring attention to there level of pain and suffering. This is not neassary bad either but there may be more productive less harmful ways to do this. This is especially the case when children try to commit suicide. Many times they don't even understand the principle of the act. They just don't know of any other outlet to express there emotional or some physical pain.

 

[Minuend]

Whether something is selfish is not necessarily an indicator of what decision is "right".

Though, persons who commit suicide are probably often convinced they are making it easier on people around them.

 

[snafupants]

I see all moral judgements as projection and intellectually bankrupt at center. Simply put, suicide is typically the culmination of years of knee-bending suffering. You can deem the deed itself whatever you like - selfish, liberating, absurd or canny. It ultimately doesn't matter. You're judging a completed act from a detached standpoint.

 

[Chad]

I see all moral judgements as projection and intellectually bankrupt at center. Simply put, suicide is typically the culmination of years of knee-bending suffering. You can deem the deed itself whatever you like - selfish, liberating, absurd or canny. It ultimately doesn't matter. You're judging a completed act from a detached standpoint.

Indeed, I believe you are correct. Like I have said previously on this thread. I haven't ever dealt with suicide on a personal level therefore any opinions I share on this topic have to come fore detachment because I can't attach my self to an idea that I can't fully understand.

 

[kvothe27]

Living life is ego I can agree with this but that isn't a bad thing its what keep life possible. However, the act of killing ones self my be removing that ego but at the same time it giving one power to control there own death. Which is ultimately the most defiantly selfish act a person can make. The results my be selfless the the act is not. Also many suicides are not meant to be successful they are meant to bring attention to there level of pain and suffering. This is not neassary bad either but there may be more productive less harmful ways to do this. This is especially the case when children try to commit suicide. Many times they don't even understand the principle of the act. They just don't know of any other outlet to express there emotional or some physical pain.

The most selfish act is killing or hurting someone or a group of people for glorification of self. Suicide is a power most have already, and is not gained by actually committing it. Acting on that power doesn't increase power -- it relinquishes all power -- a very selfless act in that it diminishes and eliminates ego.

 

[snafupants]

Acting on that power doesn't increase power -- it relinquishes all power -- a very selfless act in that it diminishes and eliminates ego.

Unless the ego desires a cessation of suffering or infamy through an ignominious death.

 

[Chad]

The most selfish act is killing someone or a group of people for glorification of self. Suicide is a power most have already, and is not gained by actually committing it. Acting on that power doesn't increase power -- it relinquishes all power -- a very selfless act in that it diminishes and eliminates ego.

I don't share your perspective, as for my self suicide is not an option therefore controlling my own death would be a new and novel option for me.

However, like others have said this could be completely caused by my bias and detachment I have form the issue at hand. However, I don't see the usefulness to ague form a prospect that I don't agree with. I do find you perspective interesting but I don't see it that way as it would some how relate to my own ability to commit suicide. Selflessness is an honorable trait but I have a very hard time seeing suicide as an honorable act. Even if the end results are selfless the act and the motivations leading to the act seem to highly motivated by self delusion and not selflessness. IMO

 

[snafupants]

I don't share your perspective, as for my self suicide is not an option therefore controlling my own death would be a new and novel option for me.

However, like others have said this could be completely caused by my bias and detachment I have form the issue at hand. However, I don't see the usefulness to ague form a prospect that I don't agree with. I do find you perspective interesting but I don't see it that way as it would some how relate to my own ability to commit suicide. Selflessness is an honorable trait but I have a very hard time seeing suicide as an honorable act. Even if the end results are selfless the act and the motivations leading to the act seem to highly motivated by self delusion and not selflessness. IMO

It's all subjective. Seppuku and Stoic suicide are viewed differently than modern-day Western suicide. I'm basically arguing for cultural relativism here.

 

[ShameFace]

Just heard about a guy I went to school with, who laid his head on some train tracks (second person I personally knew, who did that, at these particular tracks).

Doug Stanhope has a pretty funny bit about suicide being 'the cowards way out".

Me personally, I can't really judge the act of suicide, it would have to be on a case by case basis, for me to say if its selfish or not.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Suicide doesn't benefit the self; it ends the self. There is no benefit to ego, especially since such a person likely doesn't believe in some pleasant afterlife. Moreover, suicide is often motivated by feelings of worthlessness. The person often believes suicide will be a benefit to other people. As such, I do not view it as selfish. It's a selfless act, actually, because it ends the ego. The wide condemnation for suicide is simply the result of the living's bias for life, fueled by fear of death, instinct, etc.

Living is selfish. Most people stay alive for instinctual reasons as well as to feed their egos. Staying alive for ones kids is selfish as well, because it's motivated, in large part, by a need to perpetuate ones genes, and, especially among baby boomers, to feed egos via child accomplishments. So on and so forth.

Improving your situation without regards to how other people will feel is selfish (and also not necessarily bad). If being alive is more painful than not existing, then suicide is a step up, and it's selfish. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that people who commit suicide do not consider it a better option than life. They obviously chose it!

 

[ShameFace]

Doug Stanhope on suicide

http://youtu.be/v3ZA-_kWGGc