Is self-discipline good or not

[Ex-User (14663)]

Obviously there is utility in it, but is it justifiable from an aesthetical point of view? To me there is a conflict between being free and having self-discipline and I always end up rebelling against my own rules

 

[Hadoblado]

I think it's important, and that (for me) aesthetic concerns tend to be more of a manifestation of imperfect self-discipline than a legitimate challenge.

If you've chosen to be disciplined in working towards goals you have accepted, freedom is not an issue.

 

[J-man]

There's always a question for me that's something like: shouldn't my natural inclinations lead me to a good place? I'm an animal that was shaped by evolution. Following my instincts and feelings should at least get my needs met and make me feel more whole. That generally proves true for me, only fear prevents me from doing it completely. Fear of losing control.

I don't believe in self discipline but I'm in favor of trying if that's what you want to do. You'll learn something. I rebel against my own rules too, often instantly, as soon as I decide on them.

 

[Black Rose]

I always try to keep an equilibrium. Nothing too restrictive and nothing too risky.

I got 2 cavities in the front teeth needing filling from eating too many fruit rollups. I now focus on oral hygiene alot more. Does it feel right is balanced by, is this harmful to me.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I got 4 gears in life. Obsessed, have to do, looks fun, apathy.

 

[rlnb]

i am slightly sidestepping the question...

There are 3 things : compulsion, freedom, discipline.
I hate compulsion of any kind. Want to reduce this as much as possible.
Everything outside of compulsion is freedom. Now you may choose to willingly sacrifice a portion of this freedom to achieve some goal. That's discipline.

The irony is, sometimes the only way to reduce compulsions is to sacrifice whatever little freedom you have towards a goal that will eventually reduce your compulsions.
For ex: Money is a compulsion for most people. So by being disciplined ( working hard/ saving, taking calculated risks etc), one may become financially independent in some time.

I guess it is an optimization problem. Finding a way to maximize for average freedom over your lifetime by sacrificing freedom in the short term. Personal aesthetics (what is the bare minimum freedom you need at any point in time, what are your compulsions, how much risk you are willing to take etc) form the constrains.

Also, as was discussed in another thread, freedom of the mind ('inside') is much more useful than freedom of the 'outside'. So, it is sometimes tempting to abandon attempts at gaining 'outside' freedom

 

[moody]

I guess it is an optimization problem. Finding a way to maximize for average freedom over your lifetime by sacrificing freedom in the short term. Personal aesthetics (what is the bare minimum freedom you need at any point in time, what are your compulsions, how much risk you are willing to take etc) form the constrains.

This is pretty much how I’d also answer the prompt.

Like everything, self-disapline is a balance. You don’t want to be a slave to your whims, but you should also allow your “rules” to change with your current circumstances.

Lack of all self-discipline is (usually) a result of a mental and/or neurological disorder. From psychopaths to kids with too many ACDs*, people who lack the ability for self-discipline (socially or internally) don’t often end up with happy, content lives.

*ACD = Adverse Childhood expiriances: there is something called an “ACD” score that can give you a general outlook on issues/predispositions you have as an adult that have been a direct result of your childhood experiences.

 

[Minuend]

What if you're a drug user who have to use self discipline to get clean?

Idk, to me the question seem kinda... futile? Even if you're a wondrous project as an aggressive hobo drug user... then what? Yay aesthetics? I guess you could think in that way, but what's the point to it other than leaning on it to justify drug use? Or... justify not being self disciplinary in ares that matter?

Personally, if I had no self discipline I'd just eat fried potatoes and drink beer every day all day, no exercise, no nothing. I'm all about that instant gratification, the only reason I've been able to do anything previously is due to self discipline and consciously feeding my completionist tendencies where I'm able to overcome my dislike for anything that requires focus for more than 5 mins. Manipulating myself, so to speak. I don't find it an ideal to strive toward. In fact, my lack of long term focus/ interest is one of my worse qualities which means I never really achieve any in depth knowledge, mastery or so.

... unless you meant something else.

 

[Ex-User (14663)]

To me, the problem with interpreting "self-discipline" as both the necessary and sufficient condition for achieving advantageous things in life, and avoiding bad ones, is that I have seen many examples, and consider myself to be one, of people who have next to zero self-discipline yet work their ass off in certain endeavors and reach certain goals in life. This similar to what @ZenRaiden referred to as only having the modes "Obsessed, have to do, looks fun, apathy".

I also recall reading the book "Daily Rituals" which described the daily routines of various accomplished artists, scientists, authors etc throughout history. It was clear that there was quite a lot of variation in how these people approached their crafts. Some people were extremely structured and self-disciplined and saw this as the only way to make progress. Others were absolutely chaotic yet obsessed with their projects and made it that way. I dunno, for some reason I find the latter a more aesthetical approach, and an approach I can get onboard with, but that's probably completely subjective.

 

[moody]

I have seen many examples, and consider myself to be one, of people who have next to zero self-discipline yet work their ass off in certain endeavors and reach certain goals in life. This similar to what @ZenRaiden referred to as only having the modes "Obsessed, have to do, looks fun, apathy".

I think this is an example of how the necessity of self-discipline differs depending on the person. Self-discipline isn’t always conscious—it’s as simple as not pissing yourself every time you have the urge to, and instead waiting to use a toilet. Only some people really have to consciously discipline themselves with diet or habits, but it you’re well-adjusted you probably don’t have to.

 

[Pizzabeak]

There's always a question for me that's something like: shouldn't my natural inclinations lead me to a good place? I'm an animal that was shaped by evolution. Following my instincts and feelings should at least get my needs met and make me feel more whole. That generally proves true for me, only fear prevents me from doing it completely. Fear of losing control.

You’d think so then again that’s not relying on thinking, more so listening and taking it for granted interpreting it as some reliance on intuition for more smooth sailing. It’s more Fi or ENTP like and Ne centered if it was an INTP source. INFJ women are bitches or live in a manner that makes people want to ask them if they want to say something is a bitch. From a more subjective viewpoint, it can be said to be not as focused on an individual’s state of mind. Other people exist breathing the air you breathe and the water you drink. When you exhale the air turns more acidic via carbonation into CO2. Life is dependent on air as much as food and/or water.

So what, you learned how to breathe as an infantile organism and haven’t thought of it since? Looking at things with a new meaning or expanded viewpoint is only part of it, not so much sorry to say. Try not breathing -you’ll suffocate- and lose your life, thus, life is about breathing air. If you don’t breathe certain air in certain ways, extra energy develops, generated from ambient sources with electronic influence. If into generates too much past a certain point it could overwhelm the balance of the system causing fateful harm if a threshold is succeeded. It isn’t so much meant to abused and people don’t intrinsically know how it works so it’s questionable whether they’re supposed to know. It suggests a “scratch your back if you’ll scratch mine” mentality among humans and in the animal kingdom it isn’t so different. Outside animals mostly leave each other alone to to maintain energy since it isn’t worth using any extra for the favorable option of maintaining harmony, and balance, instead of fighting because they’ll need as much energy as possible when actually hunting for food. Of course natural things there such as fruit could be incorporated into the diet. Agriculture came later from hunter gatherer societies during the 18,000 B.C. period and 2 million years ago by other Homo species such as erectus, habilis, and floresiensis, which is the “Hobbit” man standing 1.1 m tall. That isn’t to say other life including fungi aren’t important, as they breathe oxygen like us and maintain ecosystems through roof network systems with trees and plants, although not all fungi are mycorrhizal. The Stoned Ape speculation could be a good place to start for primate increased or higher functioning.

 

[Pizzabeak]

So none of that actually counts since a person can’t even tell what really might be going on all the time.

 

[sushi]

self discipline is highly related to conscietiousness. in big 5

 

[Minuend]

To me, the problem with interpreting "self-discipline" as both the necessary and sufficient condition for achieving advantageous things in life, and avoiding bad ones, is that I have seen many examples, and consider myself to be one, of people who have next to zero self-discipline yet work their ass off in certain endeavors and reach certain goals in life. This similar to what ZenRaidenreferred to as only having the modes "Obsessed, have to do, looks fun, apathy".

Ah, I see. In your case, your natural tendencies is enough to maintain close to what type of life you feel ideal, and enforcing self discipline feel like introducing an unnatural aspect that you wouldn't need?

That makes more sense, I can see how that feels wrong, like an artificially created demand for doing more where the natural tendencies are more than enough. An artificially created need to reach even higher, and higher still. Because value is tied to that top of the flag that keeps getting raised higher the closer you reach for it.

I think focusing on aesthetics kinda skews things and is an inaccurate way of looking at things? I mean, it's neurological, physical. You have the pieces that together makes you feel content with what you feel motivated to do, what you do do. It's your brain telling you what you have and how you work is enough. And maybe it is. Depends on your definition of sufficient. If you have a life where you're able to live without too much negative stuff in your life, then it could be said to be enough to survive this era. So to speak.

There's nothing wrong with having a type of "feel" that helps you balance life and helps you find the type of life that's good for you. Rather than calling it aesthetics, I'd consider it something of a personal guideline for you. Overstepped will lead to your unhappiness.

I think this is an example of how the necessity of self-discipline differs depending on the person. Self-discipline isn’t always conscious—it’s as simple as not pissing yourself every time you have the urge to, and instead waiting to use a toilet. Only some people really have to consciously discipline themselves with diet or habits, but it you’re well-adjusted you probably don’t have to.

I'd think pissing on a toilet is a more natural "need" than pissing your pants (natural as in derived from society, not nature). I mean, pissing your pants would be self discipline more so than not doing it this day and age.

Considering how obesity rises in countries where people have infinite access to food, I'd say self discipline might not be that common.

What would you consider well adjusted? What would a person have to be like to be well adjusted?

I think self discipline is a result of multiple factors. Even random shit like gut bacteria will probably influence how motivated and alert you feel. And your gut microbe is influenced by what you eat. And what you eat influences what you feel like eating. (I recently read about that, hence example). Even disregarding that, there's so many factors that influence motivation, feeling of reward when you do something etc.

Though, this thread does make me wonder if I'd be more focused and interested if I had some boost to certain areas of my brain, or if I was producing more feely goody stuff that motivated me. Probably.

 

[moody]

I'd think pissing on a toilet is a more natural "need" than pissing your pants (natural as in derived from society, not nature). I mean, pissing your pants would be self discipline more so than not doing it this day and age.

Considering how obesity rises in countries where people have infinite access to food, I'd say self discipline might not be that common.

What would you consider well adjusted? What would a person have to be like to be well adjusted?

I think self discipline is a result of multiple factors. Even random shit like gut bacteria will probably influence how motivated and alert you feel. And your gut microbe is influenced by what you eat. And what you eat influences what you feel like eating. (I recently read about that, hence example). Even disregarding that, there's so many factors that influence motivation, feeling of reward when you do something etc.

Though, this thread does make me wonder if I'd be more focused and interested if I had some boost to certain areas of my brain, or if I was producing more feely goody stuff that motivated me. Probably.

We had to learn to be potty trained, train our bodies and mind to "hold it." It isn't a conscious effort for most people past the age of 3, but to ignore any sort of bodily urge is self-discipline to me. (Be it for social or personal reasons, or otherwise).

Yes, biology + environment make the tools you have to work with. That has more to do with the question of how your living habits or life experiences has effected your ability to determine what is worth disciplining yourself on, and if you're able to do that. It doesn't necessarily mean someone's weak-willed if they can't discipline themselves on something another person can; it's probably more healthy than not to acknowledge your limits. If you try to radically change eating habits, you're going to have to go slower than someone making a small change.

Example: A vegetarian will be able to transition to veganism relatively quickly, while a meat-eater would have to take it more slowly. If you judged am "omnivore" vs. vegetarian on their self-discipline solely on the amount of time it took to transition, then it would look like the vegetarian was stronger. Contextually, they just started out with different enzymes in their gut and could not be realistically compared. (Going cold-turkey isn't healthy for anyone, so leaving that out of the equation).

It too convoluted to delve into the factors that determine much someone is able to discipline themselves, because there are way too many. Childhood, socially environment, physical environment, diet, genetics, etc.

To me, "well-adjusted" is being in a space where you can aptly respond to your social and physically environment that doesn't leave you completely miserable or wanting for basic necessities. People who aren't emotionally well-adjusted don't always have the best interpersonal relationships, and people who aren't professional/economically well adjusted tend to be lacking in financial security.

No one is perfect, but the areas where you lack the ability to identity if you need self-discipline and how to do that are indicators of mal-adaptive learning (for whatever reason, usually childhood, trauma, or both).

Concern it! I tried to keep this concise, and widdled it down so much...But you prompted such compacted inquiries!

 

[QuickTwist]

The problem in self-discipline is that people always end up saying, "I'm not there yet," meaning they keep striving, but they know not for what. When you have found your purpose in life, all this falls away.

 

[lightfire]

I admire people with self discipline and high standards. Only cons to that life is being not chill with the perfectionist standards aka the bitch people.

 

[j_chrysostom]

Self discipline is the tool in which higher thought becomes reality.
A man without self discipline is even worse than a beast, for he knows what he must not do but does it anyway.

 

[Rebis]

Different utilities: discipline allows you to grow, prospection allows you to be creative. Discipline is one-dimensional with a few vectors for success, creativity (the prospective element of our personality) is infinite and self-indulgent. For me discipline has always been a method of abstaining from self-indulgence and becoming more than I currently am, this could not be achieved by passively living life.

Ultimately I prefer discipline, Self-indulgence seems basic, it's just entertainment.

 

[Kormak]

Discipline is not hard tho if you have a good goal.
Otherwise its a struggle.

 

[Rebis]

That's true with the exception of people with ADHD or other attention deficits. To want something doesn't infer you actually achieve the goal, recently with university and other behavioural extremes)(like the pacts I've mentioned) and the fact I premise my goals on a flimsy goal like developing AI as I think it'll improve most people's lives with automated and precise operations, if I get hungover for example I find it very hard to concentrate on anything, even watching TV. I'll jump from activities a few minutes to the next even if it isn't mentally taxing.

Anytime I take modafinil, which has similar effects to ritalin but essentially safe, I can churn through 10 hours of revision only moving for food and the bathroom. I think I haven't considered this in the past as it didn't take me much effort to get good grades in the lower echelons, granted I'm still doing good but I have to work more to get into 90s and above, and with the added effect of everyone around me that also achieved pretty good grades the margin for error is smaller.

Sent from my H3113 using Tapatalk

 

[Kormak]

That's true with the exception of people with ADHD or other attention deficits. To want something doesn't infer you actually achieve the goal, recently with university and other behavioural extremes)(like the pacts I've mentioned) and the fact I premise my goals on a flimsy goal like developing AI as I think it'll improve most people's lives with automated and precise operations, if I get hungover for example I find it very hard to concentrate on anything, even watching TV. I'll jump from activities a few minutes to the next even if it isn't mentally taxing.

Anytime I take modafinil, which has similar effects to ritalin but essentially safe, I can churn through 10 hours of revision only moving for food and the bathroom. I think I haven't considered this in the past as it didn't take me much effort to get good grades in the lower echelons, granted I'm still doing good but I have to work more to get into 90s and above, and with the added effect of everyone around me that also achieved pretty good grades the margin for error is smaller.

Sent from my H3113 using Tapatalk

Modafinil is an illegal substance that cannot be acquired by the public (at least here).
I'd need a prescription from a shrink. Acquiring it illegally is punishable by law lol.
Causes insomnia.

?_? you have a shrink Rebis. I'm somewhat of a trained psychologist myself, I just don't practice cus ppl's problems annoy me to no end (╯°Д°)╯︵/(.□ . \) !!!

 

[Rebis]

Modafinil is an illegal substance that cannot be acquired by the public (at least here).
I'd need a prescription from a shrink. Acquiring it illegally is punishable by law lol.
Causes insomnia.

?_? you have a shrink Rebis. I'm somewhat of a trained psychologist myself, I just don't practice cus ppl's problems annoy me to no end (╯°Д°)╯︵/(.□ . \) !!!

View attachment 4712

What does the word shrink mean!!!! It's legal here via prescription, it sits in a grey area as people can order it online (mine should come in 7-14 days) and its sent to their house. It's a loophole really, you can order without a prescription and you don't need to prove yourself to the mailman. Although I've played a risky game as my package will be sent to the reception, so I'm hoping it isn't labelled as needing a prescription.

 

[Kormak]

What does the word shrink mean!!!! It's legal here via prescription, it sits in a grey area as people can order it online (mine should come in 7-14 days) and its sent to their house. It's a loophole really, you can order without a prescription and you don't need to prove yourself to the mailman. Although I've played a risky game as my package will be sent to the reception, so I'm hoping it isn't labelled as needing a prescription.

Psychiatrist.

Modafinil is legal in the UK and Germany. Romania or the US its not.
I can't buy it here anywhere, I'd have to hit my vodka+valium drinking buddy up for some over at the mental asylum. This stuff is nonaddictive. Idk why its illegal here. Stupid laws.

 

[Rebis]

What does the word shrink mean!!!! It's legal here via prescription, it sits in a grey area as people can order it online (mine should come in 7-14 days) and its sent to their house. It's a loophole really, you can order without a prescription and you don't need to prove yourself to the mailman. Although I've played a risky game as my package will be sent to the reception, so I'm hoping it isn't labelled as needing a prescription.

Psychiatrist.

Modafinil is legal in the UK and Germany. Romania or the US its not.
I can't buy it here anywhere, I'd have to hit my vodka+valium drinking buddy up for some over at the mental asylum. This stuff is nonaddictive. Idk why its illegal here. Stupid laws.

Cross the border to bulgaria it's legal there. Alternatively you can see if you can buy adrafinil (converts to modafinil in the liver, less efficacy but it might work for you), or armodafinil which just has an R isomer group.

'Course i'm a shrink, have you ever read "god is not dead- I take cocaine" by "nich-ie"?

 

[Rebis]

Modafinil is an illegal substance that cannot be acquired by the public (at least here).
I'd need a prescription from a shrink. Acquiring it illegally is punishable by law lol.
Causes insomnia.


View attachment 4712

The first part mentioning "IS AN ILLEGAL SUBSTANCE", combined with argus the ruler of networks makes you seem like a law abiding citizen, prepared to stomp out any individual that forgoes protocols.

I am just an innocent bystander, naive to the world :/ I can't help it, I'm a westerner. People are good, m'kay?

 

[Kormak]

Cross the border to bulgaria it's legal there. Alternatively you can see if you can buy adrafinil (converts to modafinil in the liver, less efficacy but it might work for you), or armodafinil which just has an R isomer group.

What about Sulbutiamine? The other 2 you mentioned aren't legal either.
e_e man if it makes me more focused and motivated it'd be gr8.

 

[Rebis]

Haven't tried it, I don't have any problems with energy levels I can walk 5 miles to and from work (powerwalking too 1h 10 minutes via google maps, it takes me 45-50m) and I'm rarely physically exhausted, a work out relaxes me and makes me feel good rather than exhausting. It's just attention at times, the best combat I've found is stimulants (Caffeine and modafinil) and reducing my stimulus, like not actively thinking about things (responding from memory here).

First nootropic that really hit the nail on the head too, if the border between bulgaria is deregulated I would go over sometime and get some cheaply. I got 60 tablets for £51 pound, I'll have 30/40 of them for myself. 10 modafinil lasted me 2 months.

 

[Kormak]

Haven't tried it, I don't have any problems with energy levels I can walk 5 miles to and from work (powerwalking too 1h 10 minutes via google maps, it takes me 45-50m) and I'm rarely physically exhausted, a work out relaxes me and makes me feel good rather than exhausting. It's just attention at times, the best combat I've found is stimulants (Caffeine and modafinil) and reducing my stimulus, like not actively thinking about things (responding from memory here).

I'll buy a bag of 60 capsules and get back to you on this lol.

 

[Rebis]

caffeine just doesn't compare, depending on your size/build or your tolerance/control the common doses are 200, 150 and 100mg.

 

[Inexorable Username]

Have you tried Excelerol?
I wouldn’t say it’s for everyone. I actually take adderall and have for quite some time...on and off. (I’m undisciplined about it, ironically! Lol!)

When I dated my ex, he was very anti-drug (weirdly, because he wasn’t like a by the book guy), so I tried excelerol instead of adderall. It didn’t give me the same sense of being “in the zone” as far as focus is concerned, and it didn’t help me with executive functioning. Such as deciding to sit down and start working. What it DID do was make it much easier to remain focused, once I had started a task. It’s subtle, but there.

I also took half the recommended dose though, because that stuff with give you a headache quickly. For the record, had this reviewed and approved by one of the only doctors in my life I’m not contemptuous of. (It’s a me problem)

Aside from substances - there are two things I’ve found in my life that make a significant impact to my successfulness and attentiveness...I would say moreso than Adderall. (With adderall, I do enjoy a bit of a more “one track mind”, but which track that mind is about to run down is anyone’s guess.)

For me, PERSONALLY (keep in mind I have a brain that American culture has deemed unacceptably different), here is what worked best:
(1) Diet change
(2) Changing sleep patterns

(1A) Sugar and simple carbs are like drugs to my mind. On these influences, my mind turns into channel surfer on an old fashioned TV with bad reception. Conversely, high protein with fat, and few carbs OR intermittent fasting had positive correlations in mood, energy, focus, and sleep quality.
The jury is still out on whether dairy should be avoided. However, I found that very lean protein was probably not appropriate for my low carb diet. Research confirmed this. Knocking out but carbs and, essentially, fat at the same time was unhealthy. From this, I learned that you only get to knock out one core nutrient at a time....and obviously, never protein.

(2A) Hands down this made the biggest, most immediate change in my focus, and is repeatable. I’ve done this more than once with the same positive results. However, it’s really tough to maintain if people insist on being in your life. Family, for instance. Not that I don’t love and value certain family members, but family can get confused about the importance of certain..things...
I digress.

I’ve done the 4 hour 4 hour sleep schedule, and 4 hour 2 hour sleep schedule. Each had their advantages. 4 and 2 is easier to fit into a normal life, but I wouldn’t recommend 6 and 2.

Advantages post adaptation:

• Better quality of sleep
• Easy to wake
• Very easy to eat healthy without cravings or too much hunger/temptation
• Resets emotions
• Resets memories, worries, and mental distractions from the day’s experience
• Decrease in anxiety, self-doubt, depressive tendencies
• Increase in curiosity, creativity, retention, memory, and ambition
• Excellent for intermittent fasting
• Excellent for cutting out caffeine and substances
• Discipline is much easier
• Works great If you have animals

The most unexpected consequence of this new sleep cycle was that I started to have useful dreams...I think. The tendency to wake up with a sudden understanding seemed greatly increased, but part of that involves other lifestyle changes I made to facilitate creative thinking.
Anyways, though, I found that this style of sleeping led me to be able to sleep on a difficult problem, and then often wake up and solve it in less time than it would have taken me if I’d stayed awake and cracked away at it.

A couple of bad things:

• Seriously sucks to get into the pattern. Takes about 1-2 weeks.
• Seriously sucks when noise pollution or human activity destroys your second sleep shift.
• If you’re not consistent (like me) it’s possible that bouncing back and forth between sleep schedules can cause more stress and harm to the body long-term than is advisable. If you could stick to this pattern though, my research suggests that 4-4 is actually probably better for your long term health.

Substances and sleep:
I found I didn’t need adderall at all when I changed my sleep pattern. In fact, it was worse to take adderall or caffeine because both would make me hyper focus, but also give me a tendency to get anxious about results and deadlines, so I would end up skipping the second sleep session out of stress.

 

[Inexorable Username]

@Pizzabeak
“If you don’t breathe certain air in certain ways, extra energy develops, generated from ambient sources with electronic influence”
Can you elaborate? Or cite a study? Not sure I understand.

 

[Inexorable Username]

@Kormack
You’re funny. A shrink who doesn’t like listening to people’s problems.
Are you a certified shrink?

 

[Inexorable Username]

My stance on self-discipline:

The issue of self-discipline is our cultural association with it and how that affects the way we define the virtue.

What is self-discipline?
It is making the decision that is the most logical to make in accordance to your goals.

People confuse themselves about self-discipline. We all imagine it to be some insurmountable mountain of an achievement in mind-body mastery. We hold it on a pedestal as the highest achievement the human will can obtain, and we regard it as the enemy of freedom and creativity.

Is that, potentially how you view self-discipline? If so, why? Is it because that is what society has told you self-discipline feels like, and you should feel about self-discipline? If that’s the case, how much of that information is accurate and wise, and how much is a construct of generational brainwashing and cultural propaganda?

One of the most insidious myths about self-discipline is that to have it, you must suffer. No pain no gain. Another is that nobody is inclined to do what is right, so we must bully ourselves into it.

Scientific studies I’ve read, however, suggest that this paradigm conflicts with the ideal of the well-disciplined human. Some of our scientific studies suggest that willpower is a limited, diminishing resource. If that’s the case, how can one person exercise consistently excellent self-discipline, day in and day out, if they must exhaust precious willpower to do so?

Habits, you might say. So your argument might be that habits are second nature, and thus don’t require willpower, so to be self-disciplines you must establish these healthy habits.

If that’s your case...then it would seem that the habitually-governed human is not actually employing consistent discipline at all, are they? They’ve just established a system whereby they didn’t need willpower to accomplish their goals.

When you were a kid, maybe you hated to clean your room more than anything. Now, you probably have methods in place that make cleaning your room feasible without much discipline. What is a skill you’re good at, and why don’t you need discipline to practice it? Why hyper focus on some things, and not others?

Bottom Line:
Self-discipline is a self-defeating paradigm of culture. Culturally, it means to deprive yourself of what you want. In reality, it means to develop ways to achieve your goals without exercising willpower to do so.

Self-discipline contradicts creativity because to activate mental regulation of our primitive brain functions, we have to use the pre-frontal cortex, and namely, our brain’s executive functioning. But using the pre-frontal cortex stifles the activity of the limbic system, which is responsible for making the potentially superfluous neural connections that inevitably give birth to creative thought. If you deprive the limbic system of this excessive freedom, then you’re forcing it to use what energy it has to facilitate specific actions. You lose the happenstance of making obscure mental connections due to excessive brain activity.

That is why, if your self-discipline requires constant regulation by the voice in your head, you’re not really practicing long-term self-discipline, and your methods are as efficient as beating a dead horse with a baseball bat.

Here’s a new way to think about self-discipline:

• It should only require a small amount of willpower for a short period of time. For instance, 10 minutes max.
• Discovering self-discipline should be a journey in learning to understand yourself on a deeper level, not beat yourself into social conformity
• Creativity, overthinking, analyzing, and all of the things you love to do are exactly the skills you need to become self-disciplined.
• Almost everything society has told you about self-discipline is wrong.

I barely need self-discipline to get my work done. For the rare times that I do, I set a 10 minute timer in my phone. When it goes off, I set another 10 minute timer. I continuously ask myself whether I can do just 10 minutes, and since the answer is yes, there’s no reason to stop.

But I had to figure that out by working alongside my brain and using what I do well to figure out how to reach higher heights in what I do poorly. The biggest revelation for me, in self-discipline, was realizing that everything society was telling me was essentially bullshit in my case. That is because the topic is so complex and deep, and everyone’s brain is so different, that in order to teach discipline to a society you must have a concept that a 7 year old can learn. That’s why religion has stories like Adam and Eve. That’s why kids movies/books have obvious super villains. Self-discipline, too, is expressed in childish terms by society, and very few people understand it on a deeper level.

(1) Strip away the paradigm
(2) Use introspection to establish where your drive comes from
(3) Find the things that stimulate said drive
(4) Develop systems. Test. Refine. Test. Continue.

Lastly, self-discipline is not a lifestyle. It is a short term action. Like brushing your teeth. Knock that beast off it’s pedestal lest it intimidate you into routinely being a slave to your reptilian brain.

 

[Rebis]

I'll never do a polyphasic sleep pattern, I can't even manage a biphasic sleep pattern even though it's part of our circadian rhythm known as the Post-Adrenal Alertness Dip (typically after noon after food is digested for lunch, so 1-3). I do pretty much all the above at the moment, sleeping a consistent 7 hours waking up naturally, diet is pretty low carb too I've scrapped all the sugars, definitely feeling a compounded effect (I took 250mg of caffeine but I'm definitely feeling the benefits of Exercise and lack of carbs), wahey BDNF and a healthy amount of dopamine (both from modafinil closing dopamine synaptical pathways and the lack of sugar for dopaminergic surges).

I would say I feel great but I think it's a jinx to pat yourself on the back.

 

[Inexorable Username]

@Rebis
This “Post-Adrenal Alertness Dip” is new. Thanks! Polyphasic was way too difficult for me to maintain. It also drives me nuts because when I do get into something I don’t want to stop it just to sleep. Bi-phasic sleep isn’t for everyone...I think, possibly, it’s not even for most people. I think it’s best for the elderly, and for people with apparently socially-unacceptable brain abnormalities. I see no reason to believe that a majority of the populous would benefit. At least...the studies I’ve read did not reveal any benefits.

That is why, although many science-crazed people get upset by this, I like to not rely exclusively on scientific studies. I do marketing, so sometimes, I rely on qualitative or quantitative research to strengthen my stance on an observation I’ve made. Anecdotally, many, many people report positive benefits for the bi-phasic sleep cycle, but scientifically, the studies seem contradictory at best. From what I remember of my research. Still...there’s enough to suggest a positive correlation, and if we include qualitative data, it seems reasonable to suppose that the cycle is effective for some humans and not others.

 

[Rebis]

@Rebis
This “Post-Adrenal Alertness Dip” is new. Thanks! Polyphasic was way too difficult for me to maintain. It also drives me nuts because when I do get into something I don’t want to stop it just to sleep. Bi-phasic sleep isn’t for everyone...I think, possibly, it’s not even for most people. I think it’s best for the elderly, and for people with apparently socially-unacceptable brain abnormalities. I see no reason to believe that a majority of the populous would benefit. At least...the studies I’ve read did not reveal any benefits.

That is why, although many science-crazed people get upset by this, I like to not rely exclusively on scientific studies. I do marketing, so sometimes, I rely on qualitative or quantitative research to strengthen my stance on an observation I’ve made. Anecdotally, many, many people report positive benefits for the bi-phasic sleep cycle, but scientifically, the studies seem contradictory at best. From what I remember of my research. Still...there’s enough to suggest a positive correlation, and if we include qualitative data, it seems reasonable to suppose that the cycle is effective for some humans and not others.

The bi-phasic sleep pattern isn't 4/4, it's close to 7 hours main sleep overnight and an intermittent nap during the day. It was only after the industrial revolution we skipped an afternoon sleep to increase productivity, prior to that people operated on their own farms so they were able to do work at will. I think it's still beneficial regardless for an increase in alertness which occurs after a rest, al though I understand most can't fit it into their work-life.

It could also help people in a grander scheme as they might shave an hour off during their nightly sleep and can get a little rest to relatively compensate it (though of course, sleep cannot be recuperated). Each to their own I suppose. One thing's for sure: Sleep is the single best thing you can do to regulate all bodily processes: given the impossibility of regulating all biological processes, we can surrender functionality to the sleep function that's helped is recuperate for millions of years, and also that which we attribute to our impressive cognitive faculties.

 

[Rebis]

@Inexorable Username How was adderall, and if you could compare it to modafinil how does it help? I'd be scared of the vasoconstrictive properties of adderall, I've only felt a tension when compounding caffeine and modafinil, which as we know isn't a good choice.

Pretty sure it's illegal here, there's a prescription for an off-brand version of it but that's pretty rare to come by. There's ways around everything so who knows, I might find myself in company of it sometime.

 

[Kormak]

@Kormack
You’re funny. A shrink who doesn’t like listening to people’s problems.
Are you a certified shrink?

I have a BA (I think you guys call it that) in educational psychology. I was kinda lost as to what to study after highschool and everyone was stressing me out to pick something right away. Hindsight being 20/20 I should have known that I prefered computers to people considering how big a computer nerd I was. I should have just gotten a job for a year... any job. So I wasted 5 years attempting to help other people, learning educational psychology at the uni, e_e joined non governmnetal organization which helped mentally impaired adults (the mentally retarded) and old dying ppl / their family. :/ found myself an unstable girlfriend...

... after a while it dawned on me that the whole thing didn't have any appeal to me. You need to get people to help themselves (even if they are relatively "normal" ... and I tell you this is frustrating as hell) and on the worse end I was basically a crutch for ppl who had no real future potential or were outright at the end of their lives. DEPRESSING. I have seen some shit... I am not cut out for listening to people's problems..

Anyway... computer systems were always my "zen" zone, problem solving here is like relaxation. After all that humanitarian stuff it felt like I was going home. If it weren't for my boss (she is a piece of work that one), I'd be .. well kinda happy tbh q_q. EDIT: I think I don;t like working under other ppl. therfore I have to become more independent.

Good thing education here is cheap... I could have ended up like most other millenials with a massive debt and nothing to show for it.

Hmm all of that made me remember to listen to this song for some reason... idk why tho:

Spoiler

 

[Minuend]

@Kormack
You’re funny. A shrink who doesn’t like listening to people’s problems.
Are you a certified shrink?

This is assuming everyone chooses profession based on interest and skill. It's assuming people don't choose it for x random reason or to get off on power or similar. You'd be surprised how many shrinks get off on other people's vulnerability.

 

[Rebis]

@Kormack
You’re funny. A shrink who doesn’t like listening to people’s problems.
Are you a certified shrink?

I have a BA (I think you guys call it that) in educational psychology. I was kinda lost as to what to study after highschool and everyone was stressing me out to pick something right away. Hindsight being 20/20 I should have known that I prefered computers to people considering how big a computer nerd I was. I should have just gotten a job for a year... any job. So I wasted 5 years attempting to help other people, learning educational psychology at the uni, e_e joined non governmnetal organization which helped mentally impaired adults (the mentally retarded) and old dying ppl / their family. :/ found myself an unstable girlfriend...

... after a while it dawned on me that the whole thing didn't have any appeal to me. You need to get people to help themselves (even if they are relatively "normal" ... and I tell you this is frustrating as hell) and on the worse end I was basically a crutch for ppl who had no real future potential or were outright at the end of their lives. DEPRESSING. I have seen some shit... I am not cut out for listening to people's problems..

Anyway... computer systems were always my "zen" zone, problem solving here is like relaxation. After all that humanitarian stuff it felt like I was going home. If it weren't for my boss (she is a piece of work that one), I'd be .. well kinda happy tbh q_q.

Good thing education here is cheap... I could have ended up like most other millenials with a massive debt and nothing to show for it.

Hmm all of that made me remember to listen to this song for some reason... idk why tho:

Spoiler

I had a similar experience, started off with business, politics, sociology and economics, didn't mind sociology as it was debate central but got bored of the repetition and lack of practicality. Economics was graphs, graphs and graphs. and graphs. Politics was debate central again, business was dogshit.

Switched to maths, philosophy and repeated politics, philosophy was really engaging for a while but then it came to practicality and a lack of realism, disenchantment followed. Maths was enjoyable but I didn't know the practical applications.

Then it was Biology, chemistry and maths. Biology was good for learning concepts, not so much the words. Those darn latin words. Chemistry was fantastic with the exception of nomenclature and conceptually lended a decent amount of physic concepts.

And then finally, a 2 year course in computer science.

 

[Kormak]

I had a similar experience, started off with business, politics, sociology and economics, didn't mind sociology as it was debate central but got bored of the repetition and lack of practicality. Economics was graphs, graphs and graphs. and graphs. Politics was debate central again, business was dogshit.

Switched to maths, philosophy and repeated politics, philosophy was really engaging for a while but then it came to practicality and a lack of realism, disenchantment followed. Maths was enjoyable but I didn't know the practical applications.

Then it was Biology, chemistry and maths. Biology was good for learning concepts, not so much the words. Those darn latin words. Chemistry was fantastic with the exception of nomenclature and conceptually lended a decent amount of physic concepts.

And then finally, a 2 year course in computer science.

I think when you do what you always liked to do (from the start), all this businness of being disciplined just goes away and gets replaced by just continuously engaging with the activity you enjoy. I sometimes forget myself at 3m and I was basically engaged with one thing from the moment I woke up in the morning to the moment I realized I have to work in 3 hours.

For me it took a while to figure out, but ever since I was a kid I enjoyed using, building, fixing tools and systems. Its what I have always done and probably why computers became my refuge from the world. If i'm stressed / depressed for example I'll fix a computer, redesign the network at home. It puts me in my comfort zone and allows me to order my thoughts / regain my footing. I have an interest in photography for example mainly because I get to use fun tools & figure out how to manipulate light in order to get the shot that is in my head.

My approach to psychology was the same, I never enjoyed the dealing with other people part despite ppl around me saying I'm really good with other people and especially kids. What was interesting to me is trying to figure out the system, why people are the way they are and so on.

I'm interested in politics, phylosophy, history and economics so I can figure out what the fuck is really going on ^^;.. I can have endless ammounts of discipline and flow, when I'm doing something i enjoy.

 

[Rebis]

I think when you do what you always liked to do (from the start), all this businness of being disciplined just goes away and gets replaced by just continuously engaging with the activity you enjoy. I sometimes forget myself at 3m and I was basically engaged with one thing from the moment I woke up in the morning to the moment I realized I have to work in 3 hours.

For me it took a while to figure out, but ever since I was a kid I enjoyed using, building, fixing tools and systems. Its what I have always done and probably why computers became my refuge from the world. If i'm stressed / depressed for example I'll fix a computer, redesign the network at home. It puts me in my comfort zone and allows me to order my thoughts / regain my footing. I have an interest in photography for example mainly because I get to use fun tools & figure out how to manipulate light in order to get the shot that is in my head.

My approach to psychology was the same, I never enjoyed the dealing with other people part despite ppl around me saying I'm really good with other people and especially kids. What was interesting to me is trying to figure out the system, why people are the way they are and so on.

I'm interested in politics, phylosophy, history and economics so I can figure out what the fuck is really going on ^^;.. I can have endless ammounts of discipline and flow, when I'm doing something i enjoy.

View attachment 4713

I never had an innate interest at the start, all I knew was I wanted something science related. My decisions have been contrived. Science can be daunting it's very incremental and slow, so in that respect discipline can be lost through incremental returns. With modafinil it lets me see past the reward post-investment, even the way it functions with dopamine which is interesting in itself. Or rather, I'm impatient which would be a proponent of people with ADHD and modafinil completely sidesteps that impatience entirely.

 

[Inexorable Username]

@Inexorable Username How was adderall, and if you could compare it to modafinil how does it help? I'd be scared of the vasoconstrictive properties of adderall, I've only felt a tension when compounding caffeine and modafinil, which as we know isn't a good choice.

Pretty sure it's illegal here, there's a prescription for an off-brand version of it but that's pretty rare to come by. There's ways around everything so who knows, I might find myself in company of it sometime.

No, I’ve never taken modafinil. I wouldn’t use me as a metric by which to gauge the effectiveness of drugs. I have unexpected responses to most drugs.
My family doctor, who I respect, explained to me that some people don’t seem to be affected that strongly by adderall where others are affected quite a lot. I know it’s supposed to be highly addictive and it can give people heart attacks. I think it can cause adrenal fatigue and all sorts of nasty things.
When I lived in other states, doctors treated me like a crack addict and a drug seeker for having an adderall prescription, and most wouldn’t prescribe it. :/

I was perscribed adderall when I was having something of a nervous breakdown in college, I suppose, and even though I was top in my classes (small classes, no real bragging rights), I was about to fail two of them because I’d missed 3 days.
I don’t like to tell many people about it because I feel like people will think I’m crazy, and therefore assume I’m unintelligent >_>.
I don’t mind being thought of as crazy. I’ve come to terms with that hard truth. I just don’t like being treated like I’m crazy AND stupid. Lol!

There’s other methamphetamines which are supposedly less dangerous. You should go through the list and see if some of the less risky ones appeal to you more.

 

[Kormak]

I never had an innate interest at the start, all I knew was I wanted something science related. My decisions have been contrived. Science can be daunting it's very incremental and slow, so in that respect discipline can be lost through incremental returns. With modafinil it lets me see past the reward post-investment, even the way it functions with dopamine which is interesting in itself. Or rather, I'm impatient which would be a proponent of people with ADHD and modafinil completely sidesteps that impatience entirely.

XD give me yer drugz Rebis! I needs them to get through this here 24 Gb full-stack developer course!

 

[Rebis]

No, I’ve never taken modafinil. I wouldn’t use me as a metric by which to gauge the effectiveness of drugs. I have unexpected responses to most drugs.
My family doctor, who I respect, explained to me that some people don’t seem to be affected that strongly by adderall where others are affected quite a lot. I know it’s supposed to be highly addictive and it can give people heart attacks. I think it can cause adrenal fatigue and all sorts of nasty things.
When I lived in other states, doctors treated me like a crack addict and a drug seeker for having an adderall prescription, and most wouldn’t prescribe it. :/

I was perscribed adderall when I was having something of a nervous breakdown in college, I suppose, and even though I was top in my classes (small classes, no real bragging rights), I was about to fail two of them because I’d missed 3 days.
I don’t like to tell many people about it because I feel like people will think I’m crazy, and therefore assume I’m unintelligent >_>.
I don’t mind being thought of as crazy. I’ve come to terms with that hard truth. I just don’t like being treated like I’m crazy AND stupid. Lol!

I've got that a lot "I don't need drugs to be smart" implying I'm naturally dumb! That isn't how it works!! Smokes cigarettes (nicotine is a potent nootropic) and Caffeine (pretty common stimulant) but noo, you aren't enhancing your ability here and I can't enhance my performance other ways! Nope!!!

 

[Inexorable Username]

No, I’ve never taken modafinil. I wouldn’t use me as a metric by which to gauge the effectiveness of drugs. I have unexpected responses to most drugs.
My family doctor, who I respect, explained to me that some people don’t seem to be affected that strongly by adderall where others are affected quite a lot. I know it’s supposed to be highly addictive and it can give people heart attacks. I think it can cause adrenal fatigue and all sorts of nasty things.
When I lived in other states, doctors treated me like a crack addict and a drug seeker for having an adderall prescription, and most wouldn’t prescribe it. :/

I was perscribed adderall when I was having something of a nervous breakdown in college, I suppose, and even though I was top in my classes (small classes, no real bragging rights), I was about to fail two of them because I’d missed 3 days.
I don’t like to tell many people about it because I feel like people will think I’m crazy, and therefore assume I’m unintelligent >_>.
I don’t mind being thought of as crazy. I’ve come to terms with that hard truth. I just don’t like being treated like I’m crazy AND stupid. Lol!

I've got that a lot "I don't need drugs to be smart" implying I'm naturally dumb! That isn't how it works!! Smokes cigarettes (nicotine is a potent nootropic) and Caffeine (pretty common stimulant) but noo, you aren't enhancing your ability here and I can't enhance my performance other ways! Nope!!!

Haha. I’m glad you understand my resentment around drug-shaming. Self-righteousness bothers me in general because it seems to me like it’s a bit hypocritical.
“I’m going to self-righteously judge you because I’m a good person”
What? How does that make sense. If you’re a good person - and indeed, as wise as you’re suggesting - then you would know that judgement, itself, is not virtuous, and we know so little as a species, at any rate, that most situations of righteous judgement are instances of the dumb looking upon the dumb and calling them stupid.

EDIT: To clarify, it isn’t like I scoff every time doctors give me advice. I go to doctors to get advice. I scoff when doctors are self-righteous or judgemental about their advice. I’ve yet to meet one that demonstrates that behavior who also possesses the knowledge, intelligence, and capacity to be unbiased, that I look for in a scientist that I would respect and defer to....

_> Apparently though, this makes me stubborn, arrogant, and anti-authority.

 

[Rebis]

EDIT: To clarify, it isn’t like I scoff every time doctors give me advice. I go to doctors to get advice. I scoff when doctors are self-righteous or judgemental about their advice. I’ve yet to meet one that demonstrates that behavior who also possesses the knowledge, intelligence, and capacity to be unbiased, that I look for in a scientist that I would respect and defer to....

_> Apparently though, this makes me stubborn, arrogant, and anti-authority.

I operate in the exact same way, I've went to the doctors like 3 times in what.. 7 years? We have free healthcare over here. My recent doctor where I used to live was quite respectful when I self-medicated (5HT supplements instead of SSRI and the like) and woudln't prescribe me SSRIs because he thought it was a radical move, which I ultimately agree with in the current day. It's not so much I'm anti authority it's just having to prove to others, as if they're on an inherent pedastal. Of course I'm not a doctor, but in the context of the effects of a medicine, even digging into the neurological processes associated with the drug is relatively easy to find online. Some people just let professionals tell them what to do, which is totally fine but the doctor with a prognosis so he can evaluate it for himself.

I'm not right, but just because the guy's a doctor doesn't mean he knows me on a level, including all my behaviours, which add up to neurological/psychological behaviour which are prescribed medication.

 

[peoplesuck]

A thread about self discipline ridden with talk of drugs that substitute the need for self discipline. Im not trying to judge anyone, obviously these drugs make the slog that is a part of academics less soul crushing. I would definitely have used some if I had access. It would have prevented many last minute papers. Oh and some people actually need them, I get it, I had a medication give me serious adhd symptoms once. I couldnt sit still for more than a minute and I had this powerful urge to move around.

Self discipline is what allows us to achieve long term goals, yes? Without self discipline we would only focus on instant gratification, here and now. self discipline is freedom, allowing you to choose and not be a slave to your impulses. someone already said something like this, thats my take.

 

[what]

personally, i'd rather self-discipline than discipline by others. at least it's me forcing me to do something rather than someone else.