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Is school worth it ?

Nix pix

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When I was younger I did well in school. so now my parents and everyone else has certain expectations of me but I can't seem to be able to put my mind on school at all.
I'm actually even failing a few subjects and I feel like my situation is even worsened by the fact that people expect me to study and do well. Because of this expectations and constant pressure now I feel as though I'm studying to prove something to them and it just doesn't feel worth it.
I keep thinking I wanna do something else. There are so many options to choose from one better than the one before and all of them are better than school, like what the fuck is are schools even teaching kids
 

Black Rose

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What is it you feel is best for you?
do you like drawing, do you like sports, what is your passion?
 

Nix pix

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What is it you feel is best for you?
do you like drawing, do you like sports, what is your passion?
I got a few hobbies yah
I love magic, photography and I recently started working out too.
I really wanna learn how to trade it seems very interesting and I can be independent, coz working under authority has always been difficult especially when I feel some of my superiors are so fucking dumb
 

EndogenousRebel

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It just wouldn't be the human experience if you could avoid dealing with and working for incompetent people who have authority that was "earned" by simple experiences you haven't had the chance to have yet. But that's just the thing. You will never have those experiences if you don't decide to go through channels where they will happen to you.

Not sure about your specific situation, but unless those channels are loosing relevancy (school is melting and I personally feel like hardly anyone has realized it yet | there is still a lot of value there, it just isn't worth the US price) you'd be unwise to discount it because you can't escape psychosocial pressures that don't serve you.

I've personally been hearing that fear and anger are good motivators. This YouTube channel, run by a neurobiologist has a bunch of helpful tips, lessons, and references to research, demonstrated in a way to help you. It's interesting stuff in general, but there's a lot that can help you here.
 

sushi

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no its overpriced and only serve the labor market and employers
 

ZenRaiden

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School is the best, you learn things you don't care about, to know things, so you can do things you don't want to do, with people who don't care if you drop dead the next day. Essentially slavery.
 

dr froyd

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i think school as a concept is good. I don't agree with people who say "Lol they taught us the quadratic formula and I haven't used it once since". Naturally you end up using less than 1% than everything you were taught, but if nobody went through that process to begin with, nobody would know anything, nobody would know what they're good at, nobody could study more advanced topics in university and then apply it in the real world, etc.

however, if one is subject to external pressures in terms of performance, and tries to live up to the ideals of school (being a straight-A student and all that stuff), then it can easily just become a grade-chasing hamster wheel where you actually don't learn anything real, just learn how to perform well on tests, and generally have a soul-sucking experience.
 

ZenRaiden

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For every hour in school you could spend 1 hour of learning or doing something useful.

Lets say the subject is geography 1 hour
1 hour of math
1 hour biology
1 hour of whatever
Then you go home.
Half of your waking hours and brain energy is gone.
Now you probably forget most of what you learned that day anyway.
You come to be tested then you get a grade even a A + grade.
Then you forget that shit anyway.

Every piece of knowledge you learn in school is super valuable.
The trouble is its only valuable in time and space somewhere down the line in far future. For a kid thats eternity. Something a child is not even equipped to conceive of.
More mature grown up brains naturally can look to future and forgo that time.

Childs brain has much more potential than we give credit too.
What modern people do not get that neural hierarchies develop on foundation.
Every hour a kid is stuck in a class watching a demoralized educator drone about something, that time is lost time for development.

Basically what I mean pragmatism and little math.
If time is the most valuable resource and time defines our life, then school is the worst idea.
If time does not matter, then school is great concept.
Unfortunately usually you hear people say stuff like "put in the time" or "use your time wisely". Both are valid, but kind of contradict.

Fact though is I went through school system just like everyone, I don't really think it was the worst thing ever, could be worse. I could have been a slave working in a mine were it in other country.

However I tend to think of what is optimal.
If the optimal thing is X then doing y which is not optimal seems unreasonable.
We kind of have proof that schools are really not success.
People succeed usually despite school.

But the biggest problem is "effort"= success, which is not true.
Most thing I learned that were super easy to learn are actually most valuable.
Most of that hard earned knowledge is just illusion.
 

dr froyd

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@ZenRaiden so what alternative do you suggest?
 

birdsnestfern

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Yeah, but its hard to get through and takes much longer than they indicate in estimated years to get degrees.
Everything will trip you up, repeated strep throat, fevers, childcare issues, cars breaking down, single parenting, full time work, last minute studying, just life in general and survival makes it really hard to get through. But once you've had to take a menial job in fast food or cashiering you will do anything to get ahead. So the smartest people are those that do the school FIRST, ie before they get married and have other responsabilities, fresh out of highschool. Once you get your two year general studies out of the way and go for a four year degree in something specific, you have the hard stuff done. Then if you don't like the direction you picked, its not so hard to fine tune another degree. Its hard, but the reward of the degree means a lot in the choices of work you can get later. And the income gives you choices, so its definitely worth it. Who wants to stock shelves or serve others at the most basic level, you will be miserable.

A clean desk job is the best. The most valuable skills I used were statistics, spreadsheets, typing, databases, presentations, English and Math, and communication and just staying power, regardless of what feelings you have to the contrary because its about survival. Nothing matters more than getting rent paid and food on the table and not being homeless. Once you are homeless, you no longer have an address with which to apply for jobs with, or a place to wash clothes or shower, or use a toilet, you just become helpless, and its almost impossible to recover from that without a miracle. You have to have a physical home address for everything and a phone and clothes, without those, you can't do anything but camp.
 

dr froyd

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Once you are homeless, you no longer have an address with which to apply for jobs with, or a place to wash clothes or shower, or use a toilet, you just become helpless, and its almost impossible to recover from that without a miracle.

it's crazy how if one slides too far in a certain direction in life, one needs Michael-Jordan level performance just to get back to normal. I've never been homeless but it's something I've often thought about, as a concept. Like, it's sort of like flying near a black hole; the closer you get, the more energy you need to escape it. Once you are past the event horizon, it's not possible to get out.
 

ZenRaiden

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Nothing matters more than getting rent paid and food on the table and not being homeless.
I had a job, I had a place to live, I had extra money and no idea how to spend it.
Then I realized I am still unhappy.
Surviving is easy.
I could get a job nowdays work my ass off and make my life easy on financial terms.
Making money is the easiest thing.
But for some reason I find this life empty nontheless.
Not sure why.
I think the idea of surviving = happy life, is only true if buying stuff and affording things makes you happy.
 

EndogenousRebel

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The school system is a cult where you go to school so you can go to school. Like a pyramid scheme.

Once you leave school, unless you went to a trade school or a nice school where they taught carpentry or finances, you won't apply 80% of what you learn.

If you're lucky you learned how to learn I guess.

Right now its use is to stand out in job applications, and not even an undergrad degree really get's that done at the moment.
 

Black Rose

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The school system is a cult where you go to school so you can go to school. Like a pyramid scheme.

Once you leave school, unless you went to a trade school or a nice school where they taught carpentry or finances, you won't apply 80% of what you learn.

If you're lucky you learned how to learn I guess.

Right now its use is to stand out in job applications, and not even an undergrad degree really get's that done at the moment.


If they had a valid way of measuring intelligence / cognitive abilities then that would be worth more than just a diploma. They do not have those except at high-level university research centers so it is usually too expensive and not worth it to jobs people to do it and it is illegal to give IQ tests for job positions. IQ tests do not even measure how well a person can draw so they would suck at art school application.

School has two things good, math and reading. Everything else is just cultural facts. What a person needs to understand in jobs is how to use tools, computers, or just physical tools. That would be what a valid cognitive test would be for. because you want a person to already be ready to do a job or to learn fast to do a job. Not all jobs require learning though. Following instructions is required, not everyone can do that, and low-level jobs have all been sent to China or automated (frozen dinner wrappers).
 

ZenRaiden

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Here is simple question.
What defines value of human labor?
 

ZenRaiden

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Right now its use is to stand out in job applications, and not even an undergrad degree really get's that done at the moment.
Here is my view of the problem.
When I go to school I intend to learn.
I went to college or university( whatever ) to learn x.
I realized when I finish I can get a job. A well payed job.
But I realized the knowledge I am learning is neither unique or special.
By unique or special I mean I will be competing with 100s of other people for few job positions. Those job positions are not available because you are smart. Those are available because you happen to be lucky and know about them.
Essentially I am playing Russian roulette with my future.
So what happens to everyone else who does not get the positions they studied for?
Well nothing. They just wasted 5 years of study.
From personal point of view those 5 years of study are great opportunity to learn and grow. None of that is wasted from personal point of view.
Its just that 5 years of hard grit pay very little.

So I agree applying for a regular job, with a degree so they can see I am good at grit, is kind of cool, but super expensive in terms of time.
So me sitting at home eating doritos becomes a better chance of success.
 

onesteptwostep

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School isn't about worth, it's more about learning the basics to participate in society economically.

Real learning comes from experience, and school provides you with the literal bare minimum for that.

With that being said, without school the only experience you'll be creating is understanding why schools were made in the first place. If that's something you value, then it's your right to understand it.
 

ZenRaiden

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School isn't about worth, it's more about learning the basics to participate in society economically.
Its a bit of contradiction?

Real learning comes from experience, and school provides you with the literal bare minimum for that.
Yes and that is my main beef. Effort vs bare minimum.
Today you become valuable to economy roughly at age 25 when 1 third of your life is over.
That is kind of sad.
 

onesteptwostep

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I mean I guess it's about perspective. I don't see 25 as being a third of your life that's over, but the actual beginning of adulthood itself. Up to age 30 you're a child. You learn what society is like the next 30 years. Then you start to learn what life is from the next 30 after that. I could stretch that into 40 40 40 since we're hitting the 120 year mark more easily now, but 30 30 30 is a more conservative conjecture.
 

Black Rose

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You learn the basics by age 16.
If not you are not intelligent or had poor teachers/schooling.

I was unable to understand calculus until age 33 so that is basic to maths but not required to work at Walmart. All calculus is good for is computer programming.

At age 36 I cannot get a job in computer programming because no one wants a college dropout. I am not going back to school just to waste 4-6 years on a $100,000 degree because I would be at the bottom of the highering market because the field is saturated. It is like video games, who the fuck wants another mediocre videogame.

It does not even matter since A.I. will be here soon.
 

ZenRaiden

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OK here is one way to look at it....
Education input - behavior - valuable output

Today we have a different situation. We have gazillion possible inputs and hence gazillion possible smart behaviors as valuable output.

Unlike our ancestors, we live in a different world, in every single dimension.

Our ancestors could learn 10 skills and live successfully whole life.

Now second framework worth noting, is ....

human output= market commodity = defined by human needs = defined by lifestyle = defined by how we work = defines market

So to simplify my lifestyle is defined by my job, my job defines market, market defines my job.

So a lot of what we do today is different from any society before.
I don't need to be a farmer, to do my work.
Many people are building businesses around services.
Other issues are that baseline economy like production and manufacturing are changing.

Here is concrete example. I could be an architect. I can build a skyscraper.
Then I need to build a skyscraper with completely different specification 10 years later. Because the demand for a skyscraper might change fast due to growing economy.

Then we have inter field overlap.

A chemist is not good as chemist and biologist in one package.

A climate scientist is not good as a physicist and climate scientist in one package.

Archeologist is not as good as archeologist and geologist in one package.

Economist is not good as economist and a psychologist in one package.

But we cannot cram so much knowledge into people.
 

Black Rose

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The reason I did not understand calculus was because I did not know what it was for.

Isaac Newton needed a way to sum quantities faster, calculus is a tool to get a result.

All math is shape quantity and symbol.

Symbol most of all has the power of creating and measuring shapes.

No one told me or the fact is no one gave me a math book to explain it.

And because no one told me I had no idea how computer languages worked.

Not only do you need calculus but you need to know the syntax and you need a project or you just have stuff that is like I can add ham and eggs (ham = 2, eggs = 3). Ham and eggs are dumb, You do not get a.i. into video games with ham and eggs.

The problem is that if you want to build something you must complete all the algorithms yourself if you do not have a library that means you must get all the syntax correct, you must memorize all of it or you will never get anything onto the computer screen. Unless you were part of a computer guild they never tell you any of this. That is why intelligence matters.

Without intelligence you cannot memorize all the computer syntax, you cannot get the calculus books, you cannot get a computer. You cannot know what it is you want to make. You need a memorization IQ of 120 at least or you will not be able to do any of this by yourself. No one tells you the rules so there is a threshold of who can do it by themselves.

But we cannot cram so much knowledge into people.

A person with a memorization IQ of 130 can do it. One is fifty people.

Even 125, one is 20 people.

My point is that not everyone needs to work in STEM but Walmart is fine.

It is not that it is impossible, hundreds of millions of people work in STEM but billions cannot.

Some people can do it by themselves and others cannot.

Geniuses, 1 in 1,000 can memorize anything. We need only a few.

It is the common person that has trouble with mental learning.

So what do they do?

How do they get money?

They can put physical things together but they need to be told what to do.

Mental power is different. You need to do it yourself or you are just a computer. Computers are going to take jobs that require a medium amount of mental effort. Computers are going to take jobs that require a medium amount of judgment. True a.i. as smart as a person who is 145 will not happen for several years. But a.i. can make pictures now and other things that would require perceptions. They cannot make high-end judgments yet. But that is technically feasible.

a.i. that can make judgments will mean those who have them will have greater power so they will be highly controlled by governments.
 

ZenRaiden

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A person with a memorization IQ of 130 can do it. One is fifty people.
Lets forget other people.

Let me ask you one simple question.
Can you think smart things?
Its rhetorical.
You are smart, but if you don't contribute to society with your smarts, I can blame you, which is wrong.
Its not your fault.
Lots of smart people.... no jobs.... that is not the fault of job market.
That is fault of school systems, that did not prepare people for job market.
Employers need people like you, but they don't know how.
Thus the onus is on you to correct for the discrepancy between job market and your skill set. Not on the employer.
It used to be that to some degree employers invested into people to make their jobs doable by training. But employers want ready made commodities.
That is why high IQ people get ahead so much. They are learning faster.
The slower people even if smart, cannot keep up with fast learners.
That is not fault of slow people.
That is fault of the system on both sides.

There is also lot of false bullshit, about how to succeed, lots of barriers and lots of bullshit gatekeeping on job markets.
Of course people like you end up jobless.
Its not your fault though, but regardless whos fault it is society is losing a productive member of society.

My main beef is that society has built a job market with unrealistic expectations, and a school system with 1950s mentality, that employers don't care for.
 

Black Rose

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The school system is better now that YouTube exists and that is where I learn things. Important things. Not just facts that have no abstract meaning that cannot be applied. In order for my ideas to have value I require certain tools. Those tools are available but I also need money for them and need to learn how to use them. But also I was not mature enough to understand what I needed to do. Being over 30 is something that has a tremendous weight to it. Because I am able to help my mom and sister because they need me and they realize they need me (something they did not recognize before).

If I need to do something I can find a video. Or I can ask for help in real life but only if I get my friends to help me. Having friends is important. For 10 years I tried to do things by myself because I was unable to find people who I thought would help me. But instead, I think that now I can help others in ways that are just better than what I had been doing before. because I only was on the computer and I was limited in resources. I did not care because it seemed my family did not care but they care now.

And even if they did not, what I want to do is important to me. I think that resources are the most important thing to get right now. Resources were not important before because the medications were bad for me and I went to the mental hospital too many times and I wanted my family to care but they did not. If they cared they would help me but they did not until now.

Too many people stay at my house. They don't help me but they were people I needed to help. I will no longer let people stay at my house because I need to take care of myself. The one thing I want to do is make a smart computer. That has been my goal since 2005. And I keep trying to do that only it takes a long time. If I get money that is what I want to do because nothing else in life seems to matter that much to me. but first I need to take care of the base-level necessities. Cleaning and fixing my house and buying a new custom computer. My computer is 10 years old and not powerful enough to run the latest a.i. software.

I believe a.i. will change the education system.
 

ZenRaiden

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The school system is better now that YouTube exists and that is where I learn things. Important things. Not just facts that have no abstract meaning that cannot be applied. In order for my ideas to have value I require certain tools. Those tools are available but I also need money for them and need to learn how to use them. But also I was not mature enough to understand what I needed to do. Being over 30 is something that has a tremendous weight to it. Because I am able to help my mom and sister because they need me and they realize they need me (something they did not recognize before).

If I need to do something I can find a video. Or I can ask for help in real life but only if I get my friends to help me. Having friends is important. For 10 years I tried to do things by myself because I was unable to find people who I thought would help me. But instead, I think that now I can help others in ways that are just better than what I had been doing before. because I only was on the computer and I was limited in resources. I did not care because it seemed my family did not care but they care now.

And even if they did not, what I want to do is important to me. I think that resources are the most important thing to get right now. Resources were not important before because the medications were bad for me and I went to the mental hospital too many times and I wanted my family to care but they did not. If they cared they would help me but they did not until now.

Too many people stay at my house. They don't help me but they were people I needed to help. I will no longer let people stay at my house because I need to take care of myself. The one thing I want to do is make a smart computer. That has been my goal since 2005. And I keep trying to do that only it takes a long time. If I get money that is what I want to do because nothing else in life seems to matter that much to me. but first I need to take care of the base-level necessities. Cleaning and fixing my house and buying a new custom computer. My computer is 10 years old and not powerful enough to run the latest a.i. software.

I believe a.i. will change the education system.
I sure hope you get your results in project.
Hope you did not take my post as attack.
Just tried to make a simple point.
Education no matter what is personal wealth either way.
 

Black Rose

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I sure hope you get your results in project.
Hope you did not take my post as attack.
Just tried to make a simple point.
Education no matter what is personal wealth either way.

We all have our personal meaning in what we do.
So for some thinking is a reward for its own sake.
But also thinking and learning can be used in the real world.
I was thinking a lot and so I ignored my own situation.
That is why I said math and such is a tool.
We all need tools and so my time was not wasted.
Education then is about giving people tools.
So they can use them to get on in life.
Self-education is important is why I mention fast-leaning people.
What is important to a person is what they should be doing with their life.
There is no reason to do anything in life unless you want to do it.
So that is where society must go,
to get people a life where they can do what they want.
If not then there is no meaning to life.

Everyone wants to do something so things are not meaningless. The problem is that not everyone can do what they want and most don't think about it. If they ever thought about it they would say: what I am doing is good enough. So thinking is a self-reward but not always, some people just want to do basics. The real issue is whether can we get everyone to the place where they are content. Once people are content they have reached their peak potential. The problem of meaninglessness is that people are over or under what they are capable of.

If everyone were placed in a position of optimum learning we could say that would be the most meaningful thing they could get out of life. Learning has been studied and so we know what causes people to get in an optimum state. It is just the necessity of resource management that keeps society from obtaining that for everyone. I believe we need better ways of managing how we learn and operate in that context. How do we educate people and help them learn and get what they want and need?

4sChOCk.png
 

Black Rose

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I believe a.i. will change the education system.

I like simple integrated models.

So far I learned more about the brain than I did in school or during my whole life.

What I put together is not that informative of how children get from infancy to adulthood but it's the basics so I could not make it that long like a book is.

Motor Development in Children

This article was written with the help of Bard via prompting.

Children’s motor development is a complex process that involves the maturation of the brain and nervous system, as well as the coordination of muscles and bones. The basal ganglia, frontal lobes, hippocampus, and amygdala all play important roles in this process.
  • Basal ganglia: The basal ganglia are involved in selecting and executing motor commands. They receive input from the motor cortex, which is responsible for planning and initiating movements. The basal ganglia then modulate the activity of the motor cortex to ensure that the correct movement is executed.
  • Frontal lobes: The frontal lobes are involved in planning and initiating movements. They also play a role in working memory, which is essential for maintaining the sequence of a movement while executing it.
  • Hippocampus: The hippocampus is responsible for forming and storing memories. It receives input from many different parts of the brain, including the sensory cortex, which is responsible for processing sensory information. The hippocampus then integrates this information to form a memory of the movement.
  • Amygdala: The amygdala is involved in evaluating the emotional significance of movements and associating them with rewards or punishments. If a movement is associated with a positive outcome or a sense of achievement, the amygdala sends signals to the basal ganglia to enhance the reinforcement of that movement. Conversely, if a movement is associated with a negative outcome or a sense of failure, the amygdala sends signals to weaken the reinforcement of that movement.
Planning and Motor Learning

The ability to plan and execute movements is essential for many everyday activities. The frontal lobes play a key role in this process. They are responsible for breaking down complex movements into smaller, more manageable steps. They also play a role in monitoring the progress of a movement and making adjustments as needed.

The basal ganglia are also involved in planning and motor learning. They help to select the most appropriate motor command for a given task. They also help to refine motor commands over time.

The hippocampus is responsible for storing memories of movements. This allows us to remember how to perform movements that we have learned in the past.

The amygdala plays a role in associating movements with rewards or punishments. This helps us to learn which movements are effective and which are not.

Role of the Cerebellum

The cerebellum plays a crucial role in motor learning and coordination by employing a self-modeling error correction mechanism. It maintains an internal model of the body’s movements, which is used to predict the sensory consequences of those movements. As movements are executed, the cerebellum compares the actual sensory feedback to the predicted feedback and generates error signals. These error signals are then used to update the internal model, leading to improvements in the accuracy and efficiency of movements over time.

This self-modeling error correction mechanism is essential for several aspects of motor control, including:
  • Smooth and coordinated movements: The cerebellum helps to smooth out movements and ensure that different muscles work together in a coordinated manner.
  • Timing and rhythm: The cerebellum is particularly important for timing and coordinating complex movements that require precise timing, such as playing a musical instrument or dancing.
  • Motor learning and adaptation: The cerebellum continuously updates its internal model based on sensory feedback, which allows it to learn new motor skills and adapt to changing conditions.
In essence, the cerebellum acts as a central hub for motor control, constantly monitoring, predicting, and correcting movements to ensure they are executed smoothly, efficiently, and accurately.

Conclusion

The development of motor skills in children is a complex process that involves a harmonious interplay between the basal ganglia, frontal lobes, hippocampus, amygdala, and cerebellum. These brain regions work together to plan, execute, and refine movements, enabling children to master a wide range of physical tasks and develop their overall coordination, balance, and timing. The cerebellum, in particular, plays a crucial role through its self-modeling error correction mechanism, constantly improving the accuracy and efficiency of movements as children learn and adapt. Understanding the intricate roles of these brain regions in motor development can provide valuable insights into child development and inform strategies for supporting children’s motor skills acquisition.

Although the process of motor development is most prominent in childhood, it continues throughout adolescence and into adulthood. While the fundamental neurological mechanisms remain the same, the focus of motor development shifts towards refining and adapting existing skills to meet the demands of higher-level activities, such as sports, dance, or specialized occupations. Moreover, motor development in later stages of life also involves maintaining mobility and balance to prevent falls and injuries associated with aging.

You can infer that as children build up self-models these allow complex interactions with the world through perception. If I do x then y happens.
 

ZenRaiden

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Real AI will change everything. Like everything it will redefine our lives in major ways.
Before washing machines people had to clean stuff with hands.
I still remember those times my grandma and mother washed stuff with hands.
It was quite time consuming job. Washing dishes was another waste of time.
Now I am sitting and waiting for dishes to be clean.
What a wonderful world.

The only side of AI that freaks me out is its possibility to be used in crime, warfare, and possible loss of control.
ChatGPT is already used in schools by students to wiesel out of homework.

So AI will rock the foundations of this society.
But I think even before true AI we will still wrestle with its incomplete versions.
If ChatGPT is already screwing people up, who knows what will happen when smart people get their hands on more advanced versions.

We saw the same thing with computers.

AI will completely redefine our concept of WORK, and redefine the concept of humans as commodities on the job market.
And the young people today nor adults of this age have any clue what will happen or when it will happen.

If being computer geek was a big deal in the 90s, being AI geek today is going to be the same deal.

So generally you are learning probably the most valuable thing.
 

sushi

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its not worth it. its a all or nothing scam that discourage and demotivates you.

survival to the fittist and all or nothing is what is wrong with the school system, as well as trying to gain approval from your teachers who grade you and give you exams that are not useful in real life.

dont let your teachers decide your future.

i would just pay attention and give minimal effort to pass.
 

ZenRaiden

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its not worth it. its a all or nothing scam that discourage and demotivates you.

survival to the fittist and all or nothing is what is wrong with the school system, as well as trying to gain approval from your teachers who grade you and give you exams that are not useful in real life.

dont let your teachers decide your future.

i would just pay attention and give minimal effort to pass.
Lots of smart people I have known in schools some with pretty high IQs, did not give a damn about school got C grades and just passed to get it over with.

You are kind of right its all or nothing. Which is my very biggest issue here.
Education should be best Fit for the person. We have general education, but no personal space to develop either thinking or otherwise is not there.
At least gifted education is moving towards what is deemed as self driven learning.
However its a shame that is reserved only for gifted overlords. (Note I am being sarcastic) because over all everyone should be equipped to learn with their own intention not prescriptive ideas of out-date school.
I am kind of glad I gave it 0 effort in school nowdays. Not that I enjoyed it, but I honestly thought I missed out. Nowdays I realized the most valuable knowledge to learn was not in school.
 

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guys, dont you think you are a bit extreme about this

i mean school is what you make of it, like everything else. If you dont want to conform to the ideal of being a school robot that's fine. One can put in work in certain subjects if they are interesting and only do passing grades in everything else. But to say it's all categorically trash is a mistake imo.

if the idea is that you can just do nothing until you're 20 and then learn everything in online courses, I'd ask you: how many people do you know that became really good in some advanced subject by just doing self-study and with zero foundation from school?

if you're some genius whizz kid who's just naturally draw to, say, math and you read math books on your own while the other kids are playing video games, then sure, school is a waste of time. Most others, like myself, wouldn't know 1 +1 = 2 unless they were taught this in school.
 

sushi

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if i were to reform the exam system

i think they should reveal the all answers to the student if he fluked the test several times, and let him retake the same test after giving him all the answer keys to study.

it doesnt help to student to retake a different exam every time he fails it.
retaking the same exam helps the student familiarize with the topic.

They also should give the marked and graded test back to the student rather than hide it out of confidentiallity, otherwise the student will not know where he fucked up.

The point is not the make the exam as difficult as possible and fail him
but him learning from mistakes and reinforce his memory.

it seems the school system has been corrupted to serve the former.
 

ZenRaiden

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Exam culture stems from the outdated notion that problems can be solved prior to tackling the problems.
Today the world works exactly opposite.
You first tackle the problem and then figure out what to learn.
Ask any successful business person.
They start by doing and failing and learning.
That is why school systems produce great robots, but not very entrepreneurial or capable people.

Learning is important, but the way school teach people to learn is exactly opposite of the problems we have today.

Its great to be a specialist for an industry that does not even exist?
 

dr froyd

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You first tackle the problem and then figure out what to learn.
Ask any successful business person.
They start by doing and failing and learning.
That is why school systems produce great robots, but not very entrepreneurial or capable people.
there's some truth to that, but if you look at, say, Zuckerberg, yes he dropped out of school but that was in sophomore year at university. I.e. he completed like 90% of the formal-education route that everyone else does. In order to know what to learn in order to solve certain problems, you need a certain foundation of basics. And these "basics" become less basic the more complicated subject you're dealing with. And unless you're a genius you need other people to teach you these basics the right way from the outset, i.e. you need more formal education to start with.
 

dr froyd

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i think they should reveal the all answers to the student if he fluked the test several times, and let him retake the same test after giving him all the answer keys to study.
lol that would be the most pointless thing ever, because all you have to do then is to memorize the answers.

the point of an exam is not to learn new things, it's to test things you were supposed to learn beforehand
 

ZenRaiden

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there's some truth to that, but if you look at, say, Zuckerberg, yes he dropped out of school but that was in sophomore year at university. I.e. he completed like 90% of the formal-education route that everyone else does. In order to know what to learn in order to solve certain problems, you need a certain foundation of basics. And these "basics" become less basic the more complicated subject you're dealing with. And unless you're a genius you need other people to teach you these basics the right way from the outset, i.e. you need more formal education to start with.
Expert knowledge is important.
Knowledge in school is important, even for exposition.
But if you look at what people learn and what people need to know its dumb.
For instance for me, now a grown person, looking back is 20/20.
So its retrospective knowledge.
When I was a student I had zero experience of real world or what is actually important.
To me most of what I was learning may have seemed as dead important stuff.
I just had no way of knowing what is important or what is not important, other than taking teachers word for it.
Generally looking back most of the things are kind of important, but not the way its taught in schools.
Lets just say most of what I learned is not something you will dazzle some employer with. Not to say its not important, but its just sucks.
If a philosophy student gets 800 euro as first pay you may tell them that they should have studied something more practical.
The problem is the student does not know.
They think what they are learning is super important.
When in reality having a philosophy degree is the equivalent of wasting your life.
Best thing a philosophy degree gives you is foundation to write.
Should we blame the student though?
I mean they have no frame of reference really.
 

Black Rose

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The only reason exams exist is to find high-IQ people.

It is a talent search for top universities but for the general public, it is pretty useless.

If you cannot solve problems on your own then they do not want you.
 

Black Rose

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and this relates to university entrance in what way?
Gifted does not correlate with IQ or success.
Gifted is entirely animal of it self.
Exams test for studiousness only.

that is what gifted is not but what IS giftedness in relation to the non-gifted?

exams are for selecting problem solvers to go to high-end universities.
 

Black Rose

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The only reason exams exist is to find high-IQ people.
You can be gifted and have low IQ, vice versa.
View attachment 7387
Giftedness is more personality trait than IQ.
A disposition of sorts.

You posted this later so it is kind of what I had thought of.

In my discussion with someone in a video chat, I had this to say:

Intelligence is three things:

working memory
stored memory
speed

but these are just about the bandwidth or the ability to compute

The one thing about giftedness is in the meta part or abstraction.

because human intelligence is about symbolism.

representation of concepts and ideas

there can always be more and more layers to thoughts:

7Yd9TLl.png
 

ZenRaiden

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My only point is that IQ stand alone is not sum total of intellect.
It is however the sum total of what we can measure precisely.
Psychology is kind of weird when it gets to unusual or more rare phenomena.
 

Black Rose

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University has levels.

To get to a certain level you need certain mental abilities.

If you can't do it then you can't do it - this is even with the best-case scenario

it also matters what you want to study for
 

sushi

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i think they should reveal the all answers to the student if he fluked the test several times, and let him retake the same test after giving him all the answer keys to study.
lol that would be the most pointless thing ever, because all you have to do then is to memorize the answers.

the point of an exam is not to learn new things, it's to test things you were supposed to learn beforehand

it still can reinforce learning for people who are below the curve

the point is to help people learn rather than try to errect a wall for people to climb and fail those who cant.

today its reduced to indoctrination for a certificate/qualification for a job.
 

Black Rose

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it still can reinforce learning for people who are below the curve

the point is to help people learn rather than try to errect a wall for people to climb and fail those who cant.

today its reduced to indoctrination for a certificate/qualification for a job.

The basics are good for people to know.

But what is the point of exams if you cannot solve real problems?

What is an exam really? it should show you can do what you can do.

In the military, you can die for example if you cannot do your job.

And I want my medical doctor to pass medical exams.

It just depends on what you are doing, you can always retake an exam but to do something you need to actually be qualified. Can I do what I need to do in the area I need to do it in?
 

sushi

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there are skills that are not part of schooling

like dealing with many different people , including jerks, criminals, VIP and all sorts of different personalities. That is one of the more important things that cant be tested on exams.

I think police work and PR people , negotiators as well as politicians etc need that kind of skills. Alot of business work involves dealing with random people from many different backgrounds and bargaining with them.
 

ZenRaiden

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Exams.... I know more from exams I cheated on or simply know more from exams where I got the answers.
Exams logic is, we give you work and you complete the work then you show your work.
However that is not how the world works even remotely.
First of all for real world problems exam culture sets a lowest bar ever.
Secondly exams are just not that good at teaching students or ascertaining their ability to understand.
Most students know how to pass exams, with out actually knowing what the hell is going on.
Some teachers especially universities know how to make hard exams.
But then no one passes them, so they lower the bar to make sure universities don't go bust.
The reality is most students don't need the degree, they just need the paper so they can get slightly better payed job.
Its a waste of potential on both fronts. Both teachers and students are wasting their life on a goal that does not exist.
 

ZenRaiden

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Here is high IQ guy explaining how to raise your IQ.
@Black Rose Just in case you were wondering why IQ is not perfect measure.

 
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