Is prostitution an ignoble profession?

[BurnedOut]

I believe that when there are ample opportunities for a woman, her decision to go to prostitution is rather ignoble and dishonourable. This is because:

1. One can never expect to surrender physical sanctity and expect somebody else to treat you as an equal. Despite all the bullshit that is said in the world, nobody treats a sex worker with adequate amounts of respect - a recurring issue among sex workers wherein the clients are physically violent. I believe, 'that woman has basically sold herself to me for some time, I am free to do whatever.' If the predatory instinct in rats can be triggered by a simple laser pointer, I strongly believe that humans have a predatorial drive as well. Sex is one of those areas where it is expressed in raw form and hence that will always cause a possibility of a man succumbing to the drive even when he has a clean track record. There is nowhere in the world where sex workers are not victims of physical violence. Despite the societal acceptance and legal protection in many developed countries (like Germany), physical violence does not seem to be eradicated. I believe that there is a certain perception of prostitutes that triggers the predatorial cue.
2. You cannot expect good mental health with the recurring trouble of lying to people around you - many sex workers are afraid to share their profession. The cost of lying and the humiliation society continuously serves woman in the form of sexual objectification will definitely penetrate the inner workings of her emotion. It is not possible to not give a fuck after a certain extent. Sex working is correlated with depression because the field exposes them to grisly men that violate them - physically, verbally, drug abuse, etc. One cannot say that she has total control over her body and simultaneously go through life-threatening demoralization of self and demand 'respect' when the environmental changes brought on by the profession cause a definite change in behavior. In other words, prostitution is a very strong trigger for a 'schema'. They are historically treated badly and nothing has changed when it comes to society's behaviours towards a sex worker.
3. Prostitution is also regarded as the failure of the government in securing basic privileges. In poor countries, prostitution is a given. I have watched documentaries on poverty and those documentaries brought me to tears. The prostitutes were selling themselves to get a cheap high or at least secure a day's meal for their poor children. The poverty was so crippling that they were literally selling themselves just to survive. This is contrary to what most people from developed countries think about sex workers and advocate 'free choice'. Prostitution cannot be made illegal but ensuring a basic amount of literacy and providing minimum social security should chip away at the newcomers in the prostitution businesses since most of them are doing it for money.

Prostitution rights are very important and they should be treated with utmost respect. However, to say that prostitution is a 'choice' is absolutely bullshit in 99% cases because the ones getting into it are broke, broken and on the edge of self-destruction. By ignoring profession's hazards in the name 'free choice' is gravely wrong. The 'whys' and 'whats' and 'hows' clearly point towards the business of prostitution being one of the most hazardous. I find nothing noble in it, however, I don't disrespect the people who are in it.

I have also interacted with real-life prostitutes. They were remarkably normal and quotidian in their mien. However, all of them shared with me about the dire straits they were in when they started prostitution. Many of them aspired to do something else in life, some of them were actively collecting money and none of them showed a genuine desire to keep working like that.

 

[Puffy]

A few points:

- A lot of these examples you give of it being ignoble is more on account of how people perceive the profession. So it's a bit of a circular argument of "it's ignoble because other people think it's ignoble". For example, if it was seen as a viable career choice then there wouldn't be as much need to be secretive about it.

- I agree that there are a lot of people in the industry involuntarily or out of dire straits and that it's a big problem. And that it has a lot of other problems, e.g. clients treating them basically as sex-dolls or extension of pornographic fantasies. That traumatises the sex-worker and doesn't help the client get to a healthier place with their sexuality either, so I'm unsure that helps anyone really. But if someone is truly in the industry with limited choice or by coercion then I don't think it's fair to call them ignoble for it.

- I have been friends with two people in the industry by choice, who have been able to help inexperienced and shy clients feel more confident in themselves and see a social benefit in what they do. I'm friends with another person who works as a tantra body-worker, who doesn't have sex with clients but does help educate people in sexuality, self-massage and with a number of sex related issues: e.g. impotence, porn addiction, etc. I'd be happy conceding they're a minority as I'm not aware of numbers, but it at least suggests to me that working in the sex industry can be an area of social benefit (i.e. noble) depending on how its approached.

 

[Cognisant]

Not all sex workers are prostitutes, in Australian strip clubs you can get a private dance where you can fondle the girl's tits and ass but there's strictly no kissing or touching of privates. Then there's strippers of the less hands-on variety, and showgirls and cam girls who are even further distanced, and a burlesque dancer may only take their top off or never show anything despite being effectively nude (i.e fan dance).

The kind of exploitative prostitution you're talking about (BurnedOut) is a direct result of poverty and that's not a prostitution problem, that's a poverty problem, in places where prostitution is legal and regulated and there's other opportunities available there's still prostitutes but they charge a lot more.

I have been friends with two people in the industry by choice, who have been able to help inexperienced and shy clients feel more confident in themselves and see a social benefit in what they do. I'm friends with another person who works as a tantra body-worker, who doesn't have sex with clients but does help educate people in sexuality, self-massage and with a number of sex related issues: e.g. impotence, porn addiction, etc. I'd be happy conceding they're a minority as I'm not aware of numbers, but it at least suggests to me that working in the sex industry can be an area of social benefit (i.e. noble) depending on how its approached.

It can go the other way too, some sex workers can be predatory either being overly friendly and/or negging clients so they think paying for affection is their only option, and I think this is where a lot of the negativity towards sex workers comes from.
But I agree it can be a positive thing, in theory.

Although there does seem to be an inherent conflict between the professionalism required by both participants and the intimacy of full body to body intercourse, then again I suppose this is also a problem faced by therapists. Not the intercourse specifically rather I can't imagine how to get someone to open up and talk about their most personal thoughts and feelings while staying professionally detached.

I suppose in a hypothetical post-capitalism society prostitution wouldn't be a profession but rather just something that some people do to both benefit others and themselves in an entirely non-fiscal manner and so such a lack of detachment wouldn't be a concern.

 

[Hadoblado]

Strong agree with puffy about circularity.

Prostitution in theory is ethically fine. Prostitution in practice tends to be raw exploitation. Either way, I don't see it as the sex workers' fault.

I wouldn't want a friend of mine to become a prostitute. Not out of judgment but out of concern.

 

[birdsnestfern]

I believe it doesn't start out being ignoble, but it ends up being that. Physical touch, sex is fine, nothing wrong about it. But, thats not what happens in prostitution, they are not treated well, so it becomes ignoble in the way people are being abused and trapped. It ought to be legalized and standards and protection developed around it in my opinion. But, all the drugs and std's make it quite dangerous. Its also true that many young people don't understand the dangers of it fully, and probably really need to become more educated about it in schools so they can make better choices. Personally, I think simple hugs would be something that should be sold on the market. A lot of people just want hugs/holding. Touch is healthy and natural, its too bad people turn it into something about power play.
(I would never chose it myself, but I don't discriminate against anyone that does it). I just hope they also get to carry some kind of self defense or a way of getting protection if they need it.

Awful story here:

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Not sure about what the question in the thread tittle and the relationship is to people's rationales and answers in the thread. Maybe people are setting grounds for the discussion, but it's a bit trite.

All the responses are like, no* of course but.....

What that question elicits in me is the imagery of someone going to school and being made fun of for what their parents do for a living.

All these other responses are important but they aren't striking at what I think is the root of the problem and that is people's perception of how much respect they should give to prostitutes/sex workers.

Questions about ethics when bringing up way people make a living is strange when we look at conventionally ehtical jobs.

"Prostitution in theory is ethically fine."

Is like saying

"Home inspection in theory is ethically fine."

"Hot dog vendor in theory is ethically fine."

We can have similar distaste around the infrastructure about any industry, but the question for me asks how we should look at these workers.

Is pity and any other sympathetic response really what they need when they are essentially sales and customer service agents with riskier purview and poor economic prospects?

Someone who looked at a janitor like that and made that clear to them I think would not be that socially intelligent. The taboo I think get's in the way of seeing things clearly, and works to ostracize the person. The question is important because it asks can someone go into a school with a sex working parent and not be harassed at some point. I mean the answer is no, but it's also trying to figure why.

As someone who's known sex workers, they are mostly immigrants who came here with nothing. I sympathize with that aspect the same way as anyone. They usually find a way to enjoy their job, but try to get a job where they make good money "not showing their ass" when the opportunity presents itself. I think that's a highly respectable 4D chess move.

Black market sexwork is more risky, and those people have usually been subjugated by people who provide them drugs or access to things that they wouldn't have access to otherwise, like citizenship or security (they make them believe they need it). I don't know these people as much, they live in a different world, they have the option to leave, but stay. Their world is unknown to me so I withhold all judgement.

 

[Rook]

it's ok. the moment it becomes detrimental to your health and freedom, it's not. pretty much like that with any job, and in the end any form of slavery is shitty. personally i think folk should be a bit more open and accepting regarding such things, stigma can do a lot to marginalize and even demonize folk but that's just me.

 

[BurnedOut]

a bit of a circular argument of "it's ignoble because other people think it's ignoble".

I am actually playing the devil's advocate in this thread, just making it clear.

Secondly, by ignoble, I mean morally and physically repulsive, an automatic response irrespective of what you hold in theory. I have heard all the points you guys mentioned during my research and the truth is that - 'I enjoy sex work' is rather a capricious statement. It makes me think whether prostitution is something that can be solved by solving other major social evils - oppression, wealth inequality, etc. Would someone really would want to do sex work and still keep their sanity? Irrespective of the pledges of feminists and sex worker advocates, drug usage, petty crime, alcoholism, very high rates of mental illness, etc.

My question is if the thought of it is egregious for pretty much everybody notwithstanding their conscious effort against the bias, is prostitution really a job that a woman would do in a situation that is fairer to her in opportunities?

The demography of prostitutes is overwhelmingly poor, they are usually victims of domestic abuse and human trafficking, etc. At what point do you cross the line? If there is demand and supply for sex as people so freely say, why not make it a consensual contract as a culture - to be acceptable to have exchange sex with strangers with mutual consensus. That way the prostitution becomes quite meaningless. Would women still want to sell their body for money?

Despite all the opinions in the thread, do any of you really think sex work is not a symptom of progress' excreta?

 

[Rook]

a bit of a circular argument of "it's ignoble because other people think it's ignoble".

Despite all the opinions in the thread, do any of you really think sex work is not a symptom of progress' excreta?

there are many forms of it, so no. in some cases, yes. a well to-do courtesan selecting her clients is in no way ignoble, nor many other forms of this...how can that be ignoble but shagging someone, both drunk, in a bar toilet stall is a-ok? your statement can be applied to any number of themes:

Despite all the opinions in the thread, do any of you really think furries are not a symptom of progress' excreta?

Despite all the opinions in the thread, do any of you really think scat porn is not a symptom of progress' excreta?

Despite all the opinions in the thread, do any of you really think human rights are not a symptom of progress' excreta?

Despite all the opinions in the thread, do any of you really think toxic masculinity is not a symptom of progress' excreta?

Despite all the opinions in the thread, do any of you really think chicken mcnuggets are not a symptom of progress' excreta?

 

[dr froyd]

here in norway there's students who bang for cash just as a side hustle. As a student in norway you ostensibly have zero reason to do that as you're probably among the most privileged people on the planet - school is free and government pays you a handsome stipend + cheap loan.

prostitution obviously has dark sides - among the darkest known to humanity probably - human trafficking, sex slavery etc. But then there are many different flavors of it. It seems difficult to put it all into one category.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

I think sex work is a symptom of a mature society. That doesn't mean that everyone in the culture is mature, and that being a sex worker makes you mature. Not necessarily good. Maybe it is good in an economic sense, but that economic component needs things like medical and mental health components to bolster it and make it healthy, which is not something we see right now.

That whole notion of maturity is paramount for it being progressive to society. E-girl having streams full of simps is harmless on it's own, unless that performance is shaping people's actual beliefs and perceptions about real life relationships it's good.

Technology and sex work are tied together almost exclusively if we're honest. Technology feeding into the mental health crisis has been a trend since forever. Incentives for vulnerable people and bad actors aren't going away.

I already made a thread about this individualism that we are implicitly demanded to have in today's society. It's tacit, we don't see it, how much porn on Pornhub is on there without the people in it being aware for example? How much of that is profitable for the people that put it there. Why is this a problem that is not being solved? Besides the excuse of "it's too hard".

There's hardly anything that's flatout progressive. With the addition of anything there needs to be an addition of other things so that we don't put too much stress on one societal function.

I'm not a news sensationalist. These problems to me are as pressing as any other, and I recognize the privilege I may have, as well as what I miss out on by being my gender and my level of attraction or lack there of.

To me it's a labor and service and has attractive job qualities like flexible hours and medium ticket price. The social aspects around it are often sidestepped while they are the most pressing reason the economic aspects of it are so misaligned with ideals.

I think this stems from fears of currency consuming every aspect of the human experience. The thing is that if a prostitute doesn't want to service someone, they don't have to, which is more freedom than they have on the internet when it comes to them having control of their image.

This is why it comes down to maturity of people. Progressiveness is totally separate from economic industries existing legally.

 

[Hadoblado]

@EndogenousRebel
I'm not really sure what you mean. That sentence was a direct response to the claim that it's ignoble and dishonorable, but also established context for the next sentence where I'm talking about what's wrong with it. It's worth making it clear that I don't think prostitutes are doing any harm.

I could also say:

Being a lawyer is fine in theory

Being a politician is fine in theory

Being a cop is fine in theory

Casinos are fine in theory

Libertarianism is fine in theory

My opinion is that all of these things can be done well, but that they tend to not achieve their theoretical potential. If this were a thread about any of those things, I'd probably write a similar sentence before continuing on to what my concern is.

I feel like you lasered in on what I'm explicitly not saying?

 

[EndogenousRebel]

@EndogenousRebel
I'm not really sure what you mean. That sentence was a direct response to the claim that it's ignoble and dishonorable, but also established context for the next sentence where I'm talking about what's wrong with it. It's worth making it clear that I don't think prostitutes are doing any harm.

I could also say:

Being a lawyer is fine in theory

Being a politician is fine in theory

Being a cop is fine in theory

Casinos are fine in theory

Libertarianism is fine in theory

My opinion is that all of these things can be done well, but that they tend to not achieve their theoretical potential. If this were a thread about any of those things, I'd probably write a similar sentence before continuing on to what my concern is.

I feel like you lasered in on what I'm explicitly not saying?

Sorry I just felt like that statement you happened to write encapsulated how I saw the thread going. I copy pasted it attempting to show that we should be beyond questioning the ethics of prostitution.

There is an exchange, a trade, between consenting adults. It seemed like the focus was on how the industry operates. I thought the question was more about comparing a lawyer/doctor, "noble" professions, to a prostitute.


To use an anlogy that doesn't fit at all, its like people were asked what profession will get you the most respect and the response was "Drs have to pay a fortune in student debt thefore we shouldn't have Drs" An exaggeration of course but that was the sense I got.

Posted this by accident with crtl enter? but I said what I saw, maybe it wasn't so, the line of when prostitution begins I guess has to be defined or something.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

*Yes I recognize OP themselves kinda guides the convo that way.

 

[BurnedOut]

Despite all the opinions in the thread, do any of you really think furries are not a symptom of progress' excreta?

Despite all the opinions in the thread, do any of you really think scat porn is not a symptom of progress' excreta?

Despite all the opinions in the thread, do any of you really think human rights are not a symptom of progress' excreta?

The sociological conception of progress entails that humans do a more fulfilling, potential-enabling job. If progress comes at the cost of poverty being as rife as water, there is some problem with the way states are progressing and this is true.

I don't deny that there are workers who completely work for their own satisfaction but I am challenging the blanket notion that sex work is a chosen profession. I am pretty sure exploitation is present in 95% cases. Research agrees with me.

When a minority speaks as a majority, it is a recipe for stereotype.

I think state-run brothels and legislations aimed at protecting prostitutes should reveal the reality:
1. State will allow brothels run by a community of prostitutes and strictly ensure that no pimps are involved in the process.
2. Policewomen should be posted at every brothel at a rotating shift
3. Breach of anonymity by anybody, even the state should be punishable
4. Tax breaks for prostitutes
5. Make it legally binding on workplaces to not pester the workers for intimate information
6. Prostitutes should be made to engage in vocational training and they can apply for another job if they want to leave sex work without the fear of rejection by the society.
7. Johns can be jailed for breach of privacy and any uncomely conduct. There should be a panic button directly connected to a police station similar to banks.
8. State is liable to subsidize education and healthcare for prostitutes and their children
9. Johns should also be protected by making the prostitute responsible for john's identity.
10. Rooms should be regularly sweeped for cameras and other stuff
11. Mandatory health checkups for free at public clinics which are specially located in red light districts.

My problem is that I think that prostitution is ignoble because sex workers are not treated like human beings either by clients or the state. If the society is willing to not be biased towards them then sex work is a valid profession. But we should think about the empowerment of prostitutes keeping in mind that they most certainly would like to have an opportunity to do other jobs and not get stuck. Proponents of legalization of prostitution don't talk adequately about 'exit strategies' for prostitutes. Decriminalizing prostitution is a good step but without clearcut legislations, the field is bound to be the most hazardous given how suicide and self-destructive behaviours are common in their line or work.

 

[Rook]

@BurnedOut poverty isn't easily solved. and totally if you're in a position to help or influence local government then go for your ideas. i agree that the more desperate the money situation is the more likely folk are to peddle themselves, again true for all jobs---if you're starving, shoveling shit out of pig pens don't seem that bad a deal.

but 95%? come on dude... i know you're talking about the scruffy, whip matron beat pimp downlow flophouse by the docks kind of thing, but many people who are in sex work derive pleasure from it, constant income and a plethora of other things depending on their operational model, niche and goals. you saying a wedded couple fucking each other on cam each week are 'ignoble'? you saying they have no choice after they been doing it lucratively for some years? or doesn't that fall under your definition here? porn stars, how do u class them? and many folk do it along with another job... so they're wrong to increase their income by making a conscious life choice?

so yeah you're right about the down low stuff but some folk enjoy doing it, chose and continue to choose to do it. percentage wise idk, idc, but i'm thinking ur over-generalizing this.

Is exploitative prostitution an ignoble profession? Yes.

 

[Rook]

so what does progress have to do with it? you saying prostitution is a direct symptom of city-forming?

 

[birdsnestfern]

I don't know if she is a prostitute, but she is a bit like one with her pictures. Look up Azil Pyrate on facebook and scroll some pictures. She thinks she is a mermaid maybe. More along the lines of artistic body with a little scrunge added in. Anyway, men can fantasize about pirate sex with a mermaid in a cave I suppose. lol.

 

[Puffy]

To expand on what hado said. Firstly I don't think ignoble is a word that I generally use to describe people. People are free to do what they want and I won't generally disrespect them for their career choices. But if I had to define it I'd say an ignoble profession is one that effects social harm as opposed to a noble profession that is of social benefit.

So whether something is ignoble or not depends on who you ask. Is a drug dealer ignoble? Yes according to those more conservatively minded. But then some drug dealers might see themselves as helping people relax or relieve pain (cannabis), have a good time (mdma, etc) or open their minds to different perspectives (hallucinogens). So someone can rationalise it in a way in which they see social good in it.

It's the same with the sex industry really. I appreciate this is a reflection of my values, but personally I see pornography for the most part as a social illness. Young people get addicted to it from a young age and it engrains in their minds an idea of what sex is that's unhealthy. So they go onto repeat it as adults. So I'd say what enables that is contributing to social harm. A large part of prostitution is enabling people to act out pornographic fantasies and thus encouraging them to continue having unhealthy ideas about sex. So it's debatable if the exchange has helped the person to grow or not.

But at the same time I see the potentials for how sex-work can be of social benefit such as in my original post above. So like Hado says I don't see the profession as intrinsically unethical or ignoble. It depends.

 

[onesteptwostep]

I think a lot of the notions on prostitution is more developmental rather than due to any principle that it is good or bad. I think you would have to hold fascist views about society to say that prostitution is completely bad.

I think it's like Prohibition, it's something inevitable, and to prohibit it would lead to more societal problems, like making it a criminal operation or something unsafe, and that to alleviate those unwants, you would have to legalize it and make it safer. But then the question becomes, would legalization make it something that's noble or normative?

It's the very tension in societal norms that makes it secretive and generally not looked upon as a societal good, at least collectively from both the male and female, especially from the female spouse. There also are very strong feminist views on prostitution, which they say is basically violence towards women at large. That I don't necessarily disagree with either.

I think ultimately it comes down to what your priorities are: is the priority of individual freedom the most important? Or is it the well orderly function of a society? Or is it the cohesion and strength of a family unit? I think if you order those in a certain way you will get your answer.

 

[Redfire]

No. All jobs come with pros and cons. Live and let live.

 

[washti]

Noble are things ppl strive for as a community goal for individuals. In that context in our times - it's not noble.

Though historically sex work in a name of god was sometimes a legit deed of the priestess.

I checked ignoble word and its meaning as well synonyms and their connotations seem to match with a mainstream outlook on this activity. And I think that since cultural perception manifests in the treatment of the individual in the said group - it is in the most popular social take - ignoble.

But in a micro-social context the status of sex work varies and depends on the circumstances it's performed inside. As for men when they are in seclusion (prison) the one who serves sexually has the lowest status.

It's regarded patriotic when performed as service for the army at war (III Reich they had brothels with Arian prostitutes to not degenerate nordic supreme )

Spielberg's daughter dreamed about being a pornstar and became one.

Though I do agree with OP that voluntary prostitution in the not extreme setting is rare and works on tolerable terms only in places where women have strong legal protection.
I also think ppl from such places have tendencies to relativize the issue.

It would be good to work on some numbers. I'm without time for search though.

I find the idea of prostituting myself disgusting and I'm wary of people who are enthusiastic about using or providing services like that. I doubt I could be real friends with prostitutes. At best I would pity them at worst I will be annoying trying to persuade them out of it. I'm terrible at pretending on other people's behalf, so playing along wouldn't be an option. Like what saying 'You go girl? I would immediately burst into sardonic laughter. I'm deff not a progressive on that one.